big hitting, SLOW running, sophomore 1B - what Division colleges to target for now?

Big hitting will trump foot speed for a 1B. (Also, improved speed may come with training and the end of growth. And, there is a DH.)

If he is a big hitter.

First of all, I don't think 7.8 is that slow for a 1B who can really hit the ball.  Wouldn't rule out D1 simply because of that...especially once you get out of the upper tier of teams.

Check out the D2 rosters of schools you are looking at.  Most of the schools in our area are 90% JUCO transfers.  Hard to even get them to give a HS player the time of day.  They only have 9 scholarships to work with and are very stingy with giving any money to non-proven players.

Understand really hit for a big, slow first baseman means a constant threat to hit one out. Slow runners clog the bases if they’re not clearing them. If he wants to play D1 he should be thinking pitching with his size and potential to improve his velocity overall the next couple of years. 

Given you don’t see him as a pro prospect you may have the process backwards. What does he want to do  with his life? What does he want for a major? Where does he want to go to school? Then cross schools of the list for lack of a quality baseball program.

He needs a business plan with target schools. Don’t throw spaghetti off the wall to see what sticks.

I like the perspective.  I'm with others... if he can hit the crap out of good pitching, there will be a spot for him somewhere.  I would recommend allotting a good chunk of time and effort toward speed and agility (and anything to help with athleticism).   Be prepared... a whole lot of folks will want to look at him as a P, particularly if the velo climbs as would be expected.  The big size is a definite plus as a P.  The down side to being big AND slow as a position player is that there is really nowhere else to put you other than 1B.  So, the bat has to clearly excel.

You didn't mention anthing related to academics.  Be sure to factor in the 4 vs 40 element.  Playing college ball can be great and a goal for many but make sure there is adequate attention to what the college choice (and major) will do for him for the next 40 years.  

If he continues to develop into a college level hitter but not D1, don't discount NAIA.  There are some very good programs and they not only have athletic scholarships but many are also able to pull $ from other buckets.  And if academics are good, there's some really good D3 ball in your neck of the woods.  The right grades can make them affordable.

PS - must have been typing same time as RJM... pretty much same message

There are 7.8 60 1B's in D1... And he can absolutely play somewhere in college.  Make sure he keeps working hard on hitting.  In our experience there is a huge leap in hitting when you go from 15U/16U to 17U/18U and start facing pitchers throwing upper 80's to low 90's with nasty sliders and arm side run.   

If he can truly hit that level of pitching there will be D1's that want him.   Most of the big 1B's that I know lately that run 7.8-8.0 are going JUCO out of high school

If he runs a legitimate consistent 7.9 sixty, then he's not SLOW, in my opinion.

Yes he is a realistic threat to "hit them out"..  Not constantly at this point, but it happens..  At a recent Coastal showcase he hit one out during one of their games then we laughed when we got his 60yd time back & their note that said they "might look at a 7.1-7.3" at corner infield.. (as in - "not you" - lol)  Though obviously that's a higher end D1 baseball school.. but still, everything I read here suggests he would need to be in that range generally to actually see the field at D1's.  Which is the crux of my question.. (where might he see the field?)

And do we "rule out" his being a pro prospect?  No, but we don't rule out hitting powerball either..  If it seemed he was capable of attaining that kind of ability, awesome - but not part of what we think is a realistic "plan".

Was just really looking for some direction of the division of baseball schools that are realistic based on his present running, size & skill set.. He/we will take a systematic approach to researching schools - he wants to cast a WIDE net.. and IS putting emphasis on playing baseball at school - and there's a LOT of schools that he can get what he needs academically & socially.. (and that is not part of our question to this forum) but is the kind of person that will enjoy the 4 years & then make the most of the next 40 regardless of where he goes to school. 

Thanks for all replies thus far!

game7 posted:

If he runs a legitimate consistent 7.9 sixty, then he's not SLOW, in my opinion.

7.9 is slow.  Most definitely.  Any slower than that and you should be either a Catcher or a PO.  There are plenty of D1's who will refuse to have a 7.9 position player on their roster.  And there are some D1's who would welcome a 7.9 guy who can really hit

I think you are selling your son short.   1st base is not a speed position.   It is a hitting it over the fence or an RBI position in the batting lineup and a "make the infielders throws look good" with a great glove defensively. 

If your son can convince many college coaches he has these skills then you're halfway there.    I don't recall any college first baseman stealing bases or having a tremendous throwing arm.   Focus on producing runs with the bat, and then see who is interested without regard to their college division.

Good luck!

3and2Fastball posted:

game7 posted:

If he runs a legitimate consistent 7.9 sixty, then he's not SLOW, in my opinion.

7.9 is slow.  Most definitely.

But is it SLOW?  lol

Woudn't the key metric coaches would be most interested in for a kid like this be his exit velo?  A plus hitting measureable could outweigh sub-optimal speed at 1B.  In other words, they may be inclined to take a closer look at whether he can really hit if his exit velo that is 90+ (despite a low 60).  Without that, I would be concerned he'd never get a serious look.

What's his exit velo?

Dirtbag30 posted:

What's his exit velo?

He did a PG this Summer & it was 89 (tee/wood) And on HitTrax max with BBCOR is 96 (close front pitched / bbcor)..   With different people with their different radar gizmos it seems like it's all over the place to be honest.  But safe to say high 80's I would think.

fenwaysouth posted:

I think you are selling your son short.   1st base is not a speed position.   It is a hitting it over the fence or an RBI position in the batting lineup and a "make the infielders throws look good" with a great glove defensively. 

If your son can convince many college coaches he has these skills then you're halfway there.    I don't recall any college first baseman stealing bases or having a tremendous throwing arm.   Focus on producing runs with the bat, and then see who is interested without regard to their college division.

Good luck!

thank you & I do think I could be selling my son short but really try hard to not be "that dad" who thinks his son is some big thing.. He's blessed with size & tools - but clearly NOT one of the 3 measurables that seems to stop you dead - the 60.  It's the first thing they do at these events..

Our Fall travel season ended with a PG tourney at end of September, & since we've just been going to some colleges for fun father/son Sundays & some experience for him & to see/tour some schools..  and I just wonder if after the coaches see his 60 they already have him "crossed off".  (To read many of the threads here - it seems that's how it works - but maybe it's not always like that..)

Again thanks - all the replies are awesome & really appreciated. College is a giant Rubik's cube to us thus far & we appreciate all the tips & thoughts.  Cheers

YachtRocker posted:

....  At a recent Coastal showcase he hit one out during one of their games then we laughed when we got his 60yd time back & their note that said they "might look at a 7.1-7.3" at corner infield.. (as in - "not you" - lol)  Though obviously that's a higher end D1 baseball school.. but still, everything I read here suggests he would need to be in that range generally to actually see the field at D1's.  Which is the crux of my question.. (where might he see the field?)

And do we "rule out" his being a pro prospect?  No, but we don't rule out hitting powerball either..  If it seemed he was capable of attaining that kind of ability, awesome - but not part of what we think is a realistic "plan".

Was just really looking for some direction of the division of baseball schools that are realistic based on his present running, size & skill set.. He/we will take a systematic approach to researching schools - he wants to cast a WIDE net.. and IS putting emphasis on playing baseball at school - and there's a LOT of schools that he can get what he needs academically & socially.. (and that is not part of our question to this forum) but is the kind of person that will enjoy the 4 years & then make the most of the next 40 regardless of where he goes to school. 

Thanks for all replies thus far!

 

I'll try to drill down further to your core questions.  First, regarding the 60 time...  As a big power 1B, there is some allowance and he certainly doesn't have to be a 7.0 guy but I respectfully disagree with a few others here.  I think you are right to think that something very close to 8.0 will likely eliminate him from consideration at most decent D1 programs, as you have already experienced to a degree.  If you are looking for that magic number, it doesn't exist because there are too many variables.  Just how good of a hitter he will be and how much tolerance a specific school will have are big ones.  I would say, generally, he should shoot for something close to 7.6 and know that he will really have to mash for most decent D1's.  As someone else mentioned, it is problematic when a player really clogs the basepaths.  Unfortunately, there is also the "image" factor that better D1's subscribe to... either big AND athletic or fast AND athletic.  Particularly slow speed doesn't portray athletic. 

I think the answer to which division has the same factors in play.  Add in the fact that there is significant overlap within divisions with the existence of particularly strong or weak teams in each. 

I have seen big 15/16 y.o.'s work their tails off and become more athletic and quicker than their young big bodies were previously.  I am not ruling anything out...  but also trying to provide some real perspective.

I would not worry about anything at 15, especially if he is still growing and getting through any awkward stages. Work on speed,strength, conditioning and of course skills. If around, get on the best travel team where he can play. Riding pine does not garner much exposure.  Always strive to improve

Remember that there is a Hierarchy and I would not focus on a level at this point. His level will make itself known as he grows and matures. By that I mean The Bid Dogs will find you if you meet what they are looking for.  It is hard for a standout not to stand out.  The other levels are not looking seriously at anybody until Jr or summer before Sr. year and even into Sr. year. 

Now is the time to work on Grades. The Better Grades the more choices and for nearly all schools the more $$ in total merit they can give. GPA/ACT/SAT means $$, I found that especially with NAIA where my boys were most recruited. By the time he hits Sr year it will be too late to boost the GPA much. Many of us spend a lot of money on the the athletic side but fail to put money into the academic side and the difference between a 2.0, 3.0, 3.5 and 3.75+ GPA could mean the difference between  $0 and a $50k+ in merit aid.  Check the school's scholarship page in addition to the roster size 

Most important have fun, make this a positive, supportive and encouraging time time for you and your son.  Once in college you will not have this time together dedicated to a common goal again. Heck, you may be lucky if he returns  a text or answers a phone call from you after he leaves. 

For a big, strong, slow first baseman recruiting becomes an eye of the beholder issue. In high school and travel a lot of the D1 recruits are middle of the field players with power, speed and agility. 

At many D1’s first and DH are where players are moved who can hit and didn’t win their position. A friend/former teammate’s son was recruited to a top ranked program, became an All American shortstop, first round pick and has played seven-plus years in the majors.

Freshman year he was a Freshman All American first baseman. He was placed at first until the existing shortstop was drafted and moved on. He had never played anywhere but short and pitcher in his life. They figured he would handle first based on athleticism, agility and his hands. The next year a future catcher played first.

But getting back to “eye of the beholder” if the kid mashes he will appeal to someone.

2BOY’s has an important point about academics. I’ve always joked if a kid hits .250 and gets a C in math the dad is more likely to hire a hitting instructor than a math tutor. The money I spent on private SAT tutoring was as important as the hitting instructor.

For reference, my kid was a big, slow 1B in high school, and he played 4 year at a top 20 D3 program. He started years 2-4. He hit with power, even in a system where it wasn't a priority.

You just don’t see many D1 hitters who look “slow” running to 1st base. Even the big guys look athletic running.

This process doesn't have to be very difficult for him. Next fall, attend a few camps. Inexpensive lower ranked D1 (PSU, Rider, etc) and different level D2 (Shippensburg, Seton Hill, etc). Those coaches will let you know where he projects. If no interest at D1 or D2, there will be interest at D3 and juco. Juco might be a good option for him even if he does have D2 interest. After 2 years of juco, you pretty much know exactly where you fit for the following two.

You probably won't be able to convince him of this, but in the long run playing D2 vs D3 doesn't amount to squat. The important thing is the experience. Which school is the better academic and social fit? Which has the better coaching staff? Better facilities? Less student load debt? Better future employment numbers?!

In the meantime, he just needs to work on hitting the ball loud. He has plenty of time to get stronger and to refine the swing. Remember, the vast majority of HS baseball players get offered a chance to play college ball after their HS junior season. The ones who get offered earlier than that have college coaches contacting them.

Good luck.

I thought I had the corner market on the big and slow talent … nice to know that it's not a lonely place (and others can appreciate the cost of my weekly grocery bill).  This past summer, I had a player development evaluator suggest that "no one will care how fast (or how slow) he runs" … if my 13 yr old continues to develop and reaches the projections for his power hitting potential. 

That said, a 60 yd dash > 8 seconds is SLOW! 
My son needs to know that and he needs to own it!  

As parents, we continue to advocate for my son's multi-sport participation for his athletic development ... if your son does not play other sports, you may want to nudge him to enroll in a secondary "just for fun" sport that demands fitness and quickness.

My other advise, to add to this subject, is to use the player profile pages @PG and @PBR to create a list of comparable data sets in the basic measurables - exit velo, position velo (pitching velo) and 60 yd dash at your son's target position.  You (and your son) can scrape enough player comps, in a few hours, to benchmark his own measureables to any level of talent located anywhere in the country. My son now knows and fully understands what great, good, and what average is for his grad year cohorts and for one grad year ahead.  No showcase trip to FL or GA required.

Agree completely with CABBAGEDAD.  If we could go back in time, the focus for my son would've been on speed and strength more.  My son is 6'2" 200lbs, but when he lost 15lbs he shaved 0.2 sec off his 60 time.  He was also always told as a catcher speed didn't matter, but to many schools it does, even if the bat is there.  D1 schools want him faster and stronger (he's also a power bat), so he runs a 7.4 now and it's still not fast enough for that level.  My advice is get that 60 time down as best as he can with speed/agility training and depending on his size maybe adjust his diet.  Competition to play D1 is tough so you need to check as many of the boxes as you can, but other levels should still be interested in a power bat 1B guy.

If he Really hits and mashes he can play at every level. Problem is you need to be one of the best 3-4 hitters of the roster to play while as a good SS you "only" need to be one of the best 10-12 hitters of the roster to play.

That is important to consider. If you lose the 1b job usually it means sitting while a MIF has other options if he gets beat out.

So that is a decision to make. If you believe you can be a top 4 hitter in a D1 roster go for it but if you want an easier time to playing time maybe chose another level as sitting is no fun.

Of course  at d3 you need to earn the job and hit too and playing is not guaranteed but it probably is an easier path.

Would maybe send him to a good level showcase to see if he can handle top velo and good breaking stuff.

My take - 7.9 is too slow however he’s 15.5 years and a soph.  He will naturally get faster and with some work shave half a second off.  My son had a D3 tell him 7.4-7.5 a must for 1B.  He ran high 7’s, next year 7.17 electrically timed.  All schools different though.  Just keep working on it and if he’s still growing and a masher you will be in great shape.  

This topic is very relevent to me as this is something my kid is working through (2021 grad).   His best 60 was a 7.69 this fall but he is consistently in the 7.8 range and currently working hard at improving.  He wants to be able to stick at 3B and not just be a 1B/DH

The difference between a 7.4 60 and a 7.9 60 is a 0.1 split per 10 yards.  Assume a 1.9 first 10 yards and a 1.1 split for every ten yards after that is a 7.4 60 and a 1.2 split per 10 is a 7.9 ... Shave a 0.1 off the start and that's a 7.3 ---- that's the formula we're working with and is very doable with hard work... You have to really stick with it and be mindful of those splits.  My kid works a lot on running 20's & 30's these days... The weight room is a big factor, too

I know a kid ... left hand power hitter ... who fits this profile almost exactly.  Don't know his exact 60 time, but I know it was slow.  Played HS ball  my son.  

Big brute of a kid.  Nice swing.  Slow as molasses!  But he could hit.  He also pitched but couldn't get past the mid eighties.  

 He was a recruited walk-on at a local D1.  Got cut.  Transferred to a local D2 where he has played 1st base steadily since sophomore year.  Still slow as molasses. 

Another kid from my son's travel team, who played with a powerhouse HS program in the area was a back-up catcher.  He was even slower than the other guy.   But he was good enough to play catcher at an elite D3 program. He actually significant to their world series win off the bench, as I recall,  or maybe as DH.  He too was a big bruiser of a kid.  

Bottom line, If you can hit (for enough power), there is a place for you somewhere, no matter how slow you are. 

No worries!  7.8 is fine for a big hitter and most D1.  So long as they don't clog up the bases then a coach will go with a big bat in the 4th to 8th spot in the lineup.

7.8 DOES clog up the bases!  

Maybe you can't see him getting too much faster, but he can get faster. Fifteen is way too young to accept a permanent label as a slow kid. 

Speed may be the measurable that is most susceptible to significant short-term improvement. 

Slow kids are generally slow primarily because they don't know how to run and because they don't have the mobility/flexibility to increase the angle between their legs at the mid-flight point in their stride. Both are fixable. (There are also strength issues involved, but they can be addressed in the course of practicing technique and improving movement.)

He won't become a burner over night, but if he's willing to put in fifteen minutes of well-directed work every day, it's very realistic to expect that he can turn his biggest negative into a neutral or positive factor by the time he's a junior. And if he wants to play at any level of college ball, it's important that he does put forth the effort because running speed is the coach's best proxy for overall athletic ability.

There are lots of very good speed coaches who are worth what they charge. If you can't get him to one, you can still Google around and find enough information to put together two or three exercise/drill sessions he can run. 

Best wishes,

Btw do you want to post a vid of him running? I sent another poster here some pointers on running technique after he sent me a video. You can also DM me if you don't want it public. 

There are a few flaws that often occur.

Dominik85 posted:

Btw do you want to post a vid of him running? I sent another poster here some pointers on running technique after he sent me a video. You can also DM me if you don't want it public. 

There are a few flaws that often occur.

 

Wow thank you - I will DM you, that's really nice of you!  It might be embarrassing to him if I post it publicly, though it's on some websites, they don't have me with it calling him out as S L O W..  (though he runs a lot faster than me! LOL)

Anyway thanks again!  

In the acceleration phase you lean forward but you shouldn't land like a lunge and then push forward but bring the foot forward low and then kinda stomp back so your foot almost lands behind your hips.

https://www.coachseye.com/v/6c...42738214d21916207a89

Then in the top speed phase after 10-12 steps you want to be more upright but still land the foot directly under the hips with high hips and the knee and hips almost completely straight and very stiff instead of sinking down and then having to use hip extension to catapult you back up again.

https://youtu.be/h5J7AbR3WR0

Dominik85 posted:

In the acceleration phase you lean forward but you shouldn't land like a lunge and then push forward but bring the foot forward low and then kinda stomp back so your foot almost lands behind your hips.

https://www.coachseye.com/v/6c...42738214d21916207a89

Then in the top speed phase after 10-12 steps you want to be more upright but still land the foot directly under the hips with high hips and the knee and hips almost completely straight and very stiff instead of sinking down and then having to use hip extension to catapult you back up again.

https://youtu.be/h5J7AbR3WR0

that is really great information - going to take some study, trial/error, and time for implementation but it seems spot on when I look at videos. A finer point that likely makes a world of difference.. Again THANK YOU so much!

in high school I sent my kids to a sports training facility with specified training for base running and running the sixty. My daughter (softball) also did Speed Camp at a ranked NCAA track program.

Where do you live, what are his grades?  train as anyone would to develop , don't dwell on that fact that he is slow.... does he have any quickness?  can he field at 1B?  Hitting and Fielding trump running bases... what is he 15 1/2 ... body will change several times in the next 4 years.  

Don't count out mid major D1.... look up Chase Chambers, ( Tenn Tech) now in milb..... 

Also don't rule out a good JUCO...

D2 unless he is looking for the academic side is something he can use as  a fall back... D2 is normally expensive.... train and see what happens.... 

bacdorslider posted:

Where do you live, what are his grades?  train as anyone would to develop , don't dwell on that fact that he is slow.... does he have any quickness?  can he field at 1B?  Hitting and Fielding trump running bases... what is he 15 1/2 ... body will change several times in the next 4 years.  

Don't count out mid major D1.... look up Chase Chambers, ( Tenn Tech) now in milb..... 

Also don't rule out a good JUCO...

D2 unless he is looking for the academic side is something he can use as  a fall back... D2 is normally expensive.... train and see what happens.... 

We live in PA

His grades could be a whole other thread.. He gets recommended for, then often doesn't get A's in, AP/Honors classes.. So if I had to (wild) guess he'l wind up a 3.5-4.0 WEIGHTED GPA (raw GPA lower) due to taking these AP's/Honors cores.   He standardized tests really well (95&98% on verbal/math PSAT - hasn't had SAT yet)  But too many video games versus studying.. (again, that's a whole other thread - please spare me the bad parent rap - I already know! 😳) 

But my view is it's the total person he becomes that I think will take him furthest in life -  and in that Baseball is giving him a sense of discipline that has thus far eluded him with school.. I think it's a BIG positive for him. (& here again, that could be a whole other thread for that subject, too)

His 1B defense is honestly very good.  Picks consistently, moves around the bag well, throws solid to 3B/2B & knows what to do situationally - overall really solid (& I'm tough on him as you've seen)

Right now his/my mindset of target "range" is from very competitive D3's to lower D1's  But he does prefer the more full time athletic development focus of the D2/D1 programs versus the limited off season work with the D3 programs. 

And I know - anything can & will happen.. But it seems having a realistic potential "target" range of schools to look at & visit is a positive & worthwhile thing. 

He asked me yesterday "how much income would it take me to live on"  Now we're talking. 😛

This is awesome getting all these replies.. continued thanks!!

Until he gets really serious about the grades D3 will be an issue.... I would hate to go to a D3 and end up not playing.  Most of the D3's that are solid will want an ED and some pretty high test scores. ACT for instances 33 and above.  

I guess he needs to decide what he wants from a baseball perspective and an academic perspective.  And where he wants to live, how far from home etc.... D2 has very limited dollars, so you and he are likely footing the majority of the bill.   Juco, could be free and he could be in sunny Florida .... NAIA is kind of in between D3 and D2.  

Good luck... 

bacdorslider posted:

Until he gets really serious about the grades D3 will be an issue.... I would hate to go to a D3 and end up not playing.  Most of the D3's that are solid will want an ED and some pretty high test scores. ACT for instances 33 and above.  

 Well like I said has only taken PSAT and scored in 95th & 98th percentile for verbal & math respectively..  From that I could project from a test score perspective he could be in decent shape there. 

bacdorslider posted:

I guess he needs to decide what he wants from a baseball perspective and an academic perspective.  And where he wants to live, how far from home etc.... D2 has very limited dollars, so you and he are likely footing the majority of the bill.   Juco, could be free and he could be in sunny Florida .... NAIA is kind of in between D3 and D2.  

 At the risk of opening up a whole other can of worms (as in, start another thread) I'm NOT a college snob.

I own my own business & am impressed with candidates for what they bring to us first.. If a candidate was #1 in their class & functionally illiterate I wouldn't hire them - ever.  And they could have not gone to college & still be considered if they were sufficiently learned & impressive otherwise.  I also feel I could lead my son to a good life & prosperity (by giving him knowledge not $) even if he did not go to "a top" (or any) college.. But - wow - forget I said that for the purpose of this discussion - ok?  I realize I'm potentially in the minority with that statement 😯  To each their own - & again - that's another thread! LOL

I'm close to being able to retire & a free (good baseball) JUCO in FL would be fun & he'd love it. (me too)  Would give what we've saved for him even more time to grow to help pay for the future transfer school & at that point he'd know where he stood (D1/2/3 etc).

Choices abound..  NAIA is viable also - given a competitive program & solid academics.  

again - thanks to all!

Since you live in PA there are plenty of non HA D3 programs.

https://d3baseball.com/teams/region/mid-Atlantic

The PSAC has several good baseball programs. Even without a lot of D2 scholarship money in state is inexpensive. 

Grades are important for many D3 schools, but just for context, there are around 300 D3 schools (with baseball programs) that have an average composite ACT under 33.  And this doesn't include those that don't publish an average score.  A very small percentage are at or above 33.

2020Prospect posted:

Grades are important for many D3 schools, but just for context, there are around 300 D3 schools (with baseball programs) that have an average composite ACT under 33.  And this doesn't include those that don't publish an average score.  A very small percentage are at or above 33.

This is very true.  The Centennial Conference is a good example.  There are schools with admit rates close to 10%, schools with admit rates more like 40-50%, and one with an 80% admit rate and a lower average cost after aid than the top schools.  There are a lot of good choices out there.   You just have to find the right match.  BTW I had several HS friends who attended Washington College, which is in the middle group, and they absolutely loved it  and went on to have successful careers.