Calling pitches from the dugout

I'd love to hear some other simple but effective methods to signal signs to the catcher.

Our catcher never gave signs.  Our pitches were verbal.  4 numbers with one being pitch, one being location and 2 being decoys.  Changed which were which during the game.  Made the game go very quick and no work on the catcher.  I gave sign normally immediately after catcher caught pitch so the pitcher could work at his pace.  Never felt like anyone picked them up but a few tried. 

Typically 1&5 were FB, 2&6 were CB, 3&7 were Changeup, 4&8 were slider and 9 was FB,  If you mix your numbers up enough, it is hard to pick up but easy to understand. 

Ole Ball Coach posted:

I was not a big fan of coaches calling pitches when I was still coaching, but it is just a fact of life now.

Beyond the mechanics of calling the pitches, make sure that you use that as a teaching opportunity to let the catcher know the "why" of what your calling between innings, teach the infielders to make their adjustment based on the catcher's or coach's signals, the outfielders to look for their cues from the infielders, etc. It always is, but especially early in player development, teaching them the "why" of defense is extremely important and its good to get them thinking and talking baseball throughout the game.

Like HR04 said, it's a great thing your doing; be patient and I hope you enjoy it every step of the way!

OBC

I'm with you.

Only thing that I might like to call is a pick off, or pitchout, if I smell something about to happen. In general, I like the boys to call their own game.  The catcher has the best seat in the house for gauging the pitcher's stuff and making calls, IMO. If he can use a bit of coaching regarding strategy then you do it in between innings, at practice, or if there is an emergency at a mound meeting. 

 I used to love calling games as a catcher...to me, it's part of the position.

57special posted: I'm with you.

Only thing that I might like to call is a pick off, or pitchout, if I smell something about to happen. In general, I like the boys to call their own game.  The catcher has the best seat in the house for gauging the pitcher's stuff and making calls, IMO. If he can use a bit of coaching regarding strategy then you do it in between innings, at practice, or if there is an emergency at a mound meeting. 

 I used to love calling games as a catcher...to me, it's part of the position.

I’m with both of you. “Usually” in baseball, major changes in how the game is played are based on some kind of factual evidence. For example, the shift is employed more and more because it can be proved it works. But that’s not what happened with pitch calling moving from the catcher to the dugout.

As far as I know, there’s never been any kind of study done to use as a basis for calling pitches from the dugout. Instead, its assumed coaches calling pitches produce better results. But even if that were true, you’d think those brilliant coaches could teach catchers how to call pitches before they got to professional baseball.

Well, in the majors they probably have all sorts of equipment to view the pitches, and info to help them with their pitch selection, so I can sorta go with it. There is nothing happening in youth, HS, and some college besides some guy sitting on a bucket touching his body parts. I did coach with a guy who was a really good baseball man, and he called everything for 13yo's...he was right, most of the time about what to call, but most of the kids couldn't execute his calls anyway.

   I would also argue that calling your own pitches makes you a smarter player. My youngest(P) complained about some of the pitch calls the other day when he was on the mound .

  I said, "Did you shake him off?"

  Him, "No."

I simply held my hands up and shrugged.

I don't understand the logic of catcher's calling pitches in HS.  With that mentality then you would have to say that QB's should call all the plays in football because they have the best view.  If the coach is doing his job, then he is scouting, even in tournaments, and knows what a player likes to hit or can't hit.  Where the pitch needs to be thrown and what pitch to best help his team.  If he isn't doing that, then he might as well just let the kids play and sit in the stands.  What is the job of a coach?  The same mentality would avail itself when batting.  The batter has the best view so he should call the hitting situations, bunt, steal, delayed steal, hit and run.  The runner has the best view when running bases so you don't need coaches on first or third because the runner has the best knowledge.

Tell me any of this makes sense.  Most coaches I know personally who do not call pitches also do not track the hitters for the other team or scout games or contact other coaches to find out about teams.   Just saying.

PitchingFan posted:

I don't understand the logic of catcher's calling pitches in HS.  With that mentality then you would have to say that QB's should call all the plays in football because they have the best view.  If the coach is doing his job, then he is scouting, even in tournaments, and knows what a player likes to hit or can't hit.  Where the pitch needs to be thrown and what pitch to best help his team.  If he isn't doing that, then he might as well just let the kids play and sit in the stands.  What is the job of a coach?  The same mentality would avail itself when batting.  The batter has the best view so he should call the hitting situations, bunt, steal, delayed steal, hit and run.  The runner has the best view when running bases so you don't need coaches on first or third because the runner has the best knowledge.

Tell me any of this makes sense.  Most coaches I know personally who do not call pitches also do not track the hitters for the other team or scout games or contact other coaches to find out about teams.   Just saying.

That analogy with the QB doesn't fit well. The pitcher and catcher have the best connection to each other and communicate with each other much more than an adult coach would. That catcher knows what pitches and locations the pitcher is feeling that day much better than any adult in the dugout. It's been my observation over the years that coaches, who do call the game, call the Home Run pitch as often as any catcher could.

PitchingFan posted:

I don't understand the logic of catcher's calling pitches in HS.  With that mentality then you would have to say that QB's should call all the plays in football because they have the best view.  If the coach is doing his job, then he is scouting, even in tournaments, and knows what a player likes to hit or can't hit.  Where the pitch needs to be thrown and what pitch to best help his team.  If he isn't doing that, then he might as well just let the kids play and sit in the stands.  What is the job of a coach?  The same mentality would avail itself when batting.  The batter has the best view so he should call the hitting situations, bunt, steal, delayed steal, hit and run.  The runner has the best view when running bases so you don't need coaches on first or third because the runner has the best knowledge.

Tell me any of this makes sense.  Most coaches I know personally who do not call pitches also do not track the hitters for the other team or scout games or contact other coaches to find out about teams.   Just saying.

Just when do all these coaches have time to do a decent enough scouting job to know with any degree of certainty what opposing players “like to hit or can’t hit?” That’s not something that can be determined from just seeing a few PAs. But, even if HS coaches had access to the same kind of data ML managers have, and knew for sure how to pitch every opposing batter on every team, what are the chances all HS pitchers could accurately execute every pitch? If ML pitchers can’t do it to a very high degree, I can say with some certainty that HS pitchers don’t have a chance.

I suggest you go to all these coaches you know personally and ask to accompany them on a couple of these scouting forays they do, and ask to see all the data they have collected.

Stats4Gnats posted:

57special posted: I'm with you.

Only thing that I might like to call is a pick off, or pitchout, if I smell something about to happen. In general, I like the boys to call their own game.  The catcher has the best seat in the house for gauging the pitcher's stuff and making calls, IMO. If he can use a bit of coaching regarding strategy then you do it in between innings, at practice, or if there is an emergency at a mound meeting. 

 I used to love calling games as a catcher...to me, it's part of the position.

I’m with both of you. “Usually” in baseball, major changes in how the game is played are based on some kind of factual evidence. For example, the shift is employed more and more because it can be proved it works. But that’s not what happened with pitch calling moving from the catcher to the dugout.

As far as I know, there’s never been any kind of study done to use as a basis for calling pitches from the dugout. Instead, its assumed coaches calling pitches produce better results. But even if that were true, you’d think those brilliant coaches could teach catchers how to call pitches before they got to professional baseball.

Couldn't disagree more. The next catcher I meet that knows how to call a game will be the first one. This is especially true at the youth level, where all most catchers want to catch is a fastball.  Catchers have enough to worry about staying on top of the game situation. They don't need to be worried about calling pitches too, IMO. Even the HS and College catchers that have been on my teams lack the intuition that good pitching coaches have.  I called my own games when I pitched but that was a long time ago - and I knew how to use the 2 good pitches that I had & how to be careful with my 3rd pitch which wasn't as good.  Today, I don't think most pitchers have a good idea what is the best way for them to get hitters out.  Its a different formula for each pitcher, depending on what he does (and doesn't) do well. Pitchers are not aware enough of their own strengths & weaknesses - and catchers certainly aren't aware enough of the strengths & weaknesses of EVERY pitcher that they catch.  I hardly ever see a pitcher that doesn't need to do a better job of changing speeds. I don't expect to change anyone's opinion but my comments are based on my own personal experience of pitching for 15 years and coaching pitchers for longer than that. Pitching is as much an art as it is a science. Analytics and charted data are a big help with the science part. There is no way to back up the part of pitching that is art with data.

uncoach posted:

PitchingFan posted:

I don't understand the logic of catcher's calling pitches in HS.  With that mentality then you would have to say that QB's should call all the plays in football because they have the best view.  If the coach is doing his job, then he is scouting, even in tournaments, and knows what a player likes to hit or can't hit.  Where the pitch needs to be thrown and what pitch to best help his team.  If he isn't doing that, then he might as well just let the kids play and sit in the stands.  What is the job of a coach?  The same mentality would avail itself when batting.  The batter has the best view so he should call the hitting situations, bunt, steal, delayed steal, hit and run.  The runner has the best view when running bases so you don't need coaches on first or third because the runner has the best knowledge.

Tell me any of this makes sense.  Most coaches I know personally who do not call pitches also do not track the hitters for the other team or scout games or contact other coaches to find out about teams.   Just saying.

That analogy with the QB doesn't fit well. The pitcher and catcher have the best connection to each other and communicate with each other much more than an adult coach would. That catcher knows what pitches and locations the pitcher is feeling that day much better than any adult in the dugout. It's been my observation over the years that coaches, who do call the game, call the Home Run pitch as often as any catcher could.

Then why wouldn't the receivers and running backs have the same intuition with the QB.  You can't say it one way and not believe it the other.  If you trust your pitcher or catcher, then you must trust the QB but no one ever argues that a HS QB should call the plays.  Normally it is catcher's dads or former catchers who say the kids should call the game.   If a coach is doing his job, he should have more information and data and knowledge than a HS kid or he shouldn't be coaching.  If your catcher is more knowledgeable than you on calling pitches, you need a new job.

adbono posted:

Couldn't disagree more. The next catcher I meet that knows how to call a game will be the first one. This is especially true at the youth level, where all most catchers want to catch is a fastball.  Catchers have enough to worry about staying on top of the game situation. They don't need to be worried about calling pitches too, IMO. Even the HS and College catchers that have been on my teams lack the intuition that good pitching coaches have.  I called my own games when I pitched but that was a long time ago - and I knew how to use the 2 good pitches that I had & how to be careful with my 3rd pitch which wasn't as good.  Today, I don't think most pitchers have a good idea what is the best way for them to get hitters out.  Its a different formula for each pitcher, depending on what he does (and doesn't) do well. Pitchers are not aware enough of their own strengths & weaknesses - and catchers certainly aren't aware enough of the strengths & weaknesses of EVERY pitcher that they catch.  I hardly ever see a pitcher that doesn't need to do a better job of changing speeds. I don't expect to change anyone's opinion but my comments are based on my own personal experience of pitching for 15 years and coaching pitchers for longer than that. Pitching is as much an art as it is a science. Analytics and charted data are a big help with the science part. There is no way to back up the part of pitching that is art with data.

What makes you believe that you were somehow wiser than pitchers today about the best way for them to get hitters out? How did you get to be so wise and why are the pitchers today so stupid?

In the light of so many coaches calling pitches, if you really hardly ever see a pitcher that doesn't need to do a better job of changing speeds pretty much shows coaches don’t do a substantially better job of pitch calling.

What make pitching an art is how different it is for every pitcher. What works for one won’t work for all.

PitchingFan posted:

Then why wouldn't the receivers and running backs have the same intuition with the QB.  You can't say it one way and not believe it the other.  If you trust your pitcher or catcher, then you must trust the QB but no one ever argues that a HS QB should call the plays.  Normally it is catcher's dads or former catchers who say the kids should call the game.   If a coach is doing his job, he should have more information and data and knowledge than a HS kid or he shouldn't be coaching.  If your catcher is more knowledgeable than you on calling pitches, you need a new job.

First of all, football and baseball are two totally different games with totally different objectives, so any comparison is false. I agree that a coach SHOULD have more information and data and knowledge than a HS kid. And what he should do is pass that knowledge on. I still can’t figger out why it takes so long to get that accomplished.

You could also save some work by not signaling fastballs to the catcher, i.e catcher calls FB unless you signal him something else.

Explain the difference as you see it.  I believe pitches are like plays.  You hope the pitcher does what he is supposed to do with the ball like a football coach hopes the qb, rb, or wr does what he is supposed to do.  You expect a result in football according to what you see from the defense and have scouted them to respond with no different than a batter in baseball.  It is the same premise.  Pitchers will not throw the ball where or how they should and football players will not do what they are supposed to do.  But the knowledge and premise should be the same.

If all of these are true, if not let me know where I am missing something, then someone has to call the pitches and the plays. My premise is that a coach should know more than a HS kid, because very few college P5 catchers/pitchers call their own games.  The coach should call the game or are you still saying the catcher is smarter than the coach?  

PitchingFan posted: Explain the difference as you see it.  I believe pitches are like plays.  You hope the pitcher does what he is supposed to do with the ball like a football coach hopes the qb, rb, or wr does what he is supposed to do.  You expect a result in football according to what you see from the defense and have scouted them to respond with no different than a batter in baseball.  It is the same premise.  Pitchers will not throw the ball where or how they should and football players will not do what they are supposed to do.  But the knowledge and premise should be the same.

 The difference is, one is baseball and the other football. Other than to win the game, nothing is remotely the same. Don’t deflect. Stick with baseball.

If all of these are true, if not let me know where I am missing something, then someone has to call the pitches and the plays. My premise is that a coach should know more than a HS kid, because very few college P5 catchers/pitchers call their own games.  The coach should call the game or are you still saying the catcher is smarter than the coach?  

I wouldn’t argue that a coach SHOULD or SHOULDN'T know more than a HS kid. Of course they should, if for no other reason that they’ve been living longer. And that is precisely why the coach should be teaching the players how to call pitches. But to make the leap that because so many college teams don’t allow the players to call the pitches is the reason not to allow it, just doesn’t make sense. Give me some kind of proof that there's a substantial difference, not just conjecture.

 I suppose much of where we disagree comes from how important pitch calling is. You seem to believe as most people do, that poor pitch calling means hitters will likely crush every pitch they swing at, and every ball that gets hit will likely be a safe hit. I believe there’s a lot more luck involved than people want to believe, and there wouldn’t be a substantial difference in the outcome if the best coach called the best pitches based on the best information, or all the pitches a pitcher had command of were put in a hat and drawn for each pitch.

You guys obviously haven't seen Varsity Blues or Rudy.  QBs do call their own plays and very successfully.

As the pitching coach,

I have my youngest HS JV catchers (JV which is freshman,soph) start following pitch sequence and charting hitters for Varsity games. It's literally called Catcher's class for them. they have to start  to identify pitch and the why. They must stay involved in the game that way..  the backup JV catcher charts all JV games and pitch sequence. At JV, I begin the season by calling pitches and ease back by mid -season. This way they should now every hitter in our state by the in end of their sophomore year. At Varsity, I go ALOT more in depth in the WHY we pitch the hitters the way we do, so they can also develop the sequence they and the pitcher are comfortable with.  Calling is hard work for them sometimes, but i don't want a robot....

My pitchers are treated much the same way. They will have faced most of the state by the time they are a sophomore, and should be able to recall what pitch they make to a hitter up here. They also chart and gun all games so they to stay engaged. 

But, in a pinch, or If they have a question , I can always make a call for a pitch. 

Stats4Gnats we will just have to disagree.  I do believe that pitch calling is vital.  I do realize that with mediocre pitchers it is not because they typically only have one pitch they can throw for strikes, but with good pitchers who have 3 or 4 pitches it is vital.  Not just the pitch but the location.  And I still do agree that calling plays in football is equivalent to calling pitches in baseball, if done right.  I have had some good pitchers and some mediocre ones and some that I just said throw the fastball and hope it goes close enough they will swing.  But it is the same when I was an offensive coordinator.  I had players who would hit the right hole and blockers who would do their job and QB's who would throw the ball on time and to the right person and others who you just hoped they ran in the right direction.  I have always said that calling plays for football took much time and more than the QB had time to invest and the same with baseball.  I never expected my players to invest that much time but it was my job to. 

Alaskan, you must have a lot of single sport players and PO's.  Every good HS pitcher I ever had was also a player so there was never time to chart.  That must be nice to have multiple catchers and PO's.

My son and his HS catcher started playing together in 6th grade.  I coached them in 6th, 7th and 8th.   His friend was the full time catcher, but when he pitched some, my son was his catcher.  They knew each other so well by the time they got to HS that the HS coach just let them go...the catcher started calling his own pitches as a freshman and it continued thru their senior year.  Once in a while, the coach would maybe call a pitch in a certain situation, but I know that during my son's senior year he never called one pitch.   My son liked to work FAST....to the point that umpires regularly had to slow him down because the batters weren't ready.  His catcher would throw bullets back to him and if he was on, he was almost in the windup by the time the ball got back to him.  One umpire liked him so much because of how fast games went that he never once asked him to slow down...even though the opposing coach was always complaining.

College drives my son absolutely nuts.  Their coach is soooooooo slow calling pitches.  It's painful watching him have to stand there watching the catcher look to the dugout and wait for pitches....especially when he's throwing well.  He just can't stand to work so slow.  I say let the catchers call the game

PitchingFan posted:

Stats4Gnats we will just have to disagree.  I do believe that pitch calling is vital.  I do realize that with mediocre pitchers it is not because they typically only have one pitch they can throw for strikes, but with good pitchers who have 3 or 4 pitches it is vital.  Not just the pitch but the location.  And I still do agree that calling plays in football is equivalent to calling pitches in baseball, if done right.  I have had some good pitchers and some mediocre ones and some that I just said throw the fastball and hope it goes close enough they will swing.  But it is the same when I was an offensive coordinator.  I had players who would hit the right hole and blockers who would do their job and QB's who would throw the ball on time and to the right person and others who you just hoped they ran in the right direction.  I have always said that calling plays for football took much time and more than the QB had time to invest and the same with baseball.  I never expected my players to invest that much time but it was my job to. …

There’s nothing wrong with disagreeing, but why do you think pitch calling is ”vital”, other than communicating between the P and C what pitch is coming?

Up here,we  haven't seen too many pitchers that have real great command of three or four pitches at the HS level.  most will have two, mediocre 1. If they can change speeds and hit spots, most do very well. I feel  It still shouldn't stop you from allowing players to call games or having players chart. Charting keeps players engaged. Specifically JV who aren't playing. 

Most college coaches ,I've talked to about my guys have asked if my catchers call their own game. Even if the coach calls the game for their team. 

Pitchingfan, I have been extremely blessed to have a number of POs the last couple of years.  Single sport athletes? I have a 8-10 basketball and hockey players  that play on average for JV and V combined. But both are completed by our start in April- May. It's a very short HS season up here. Our biggest schedule is the Legion season which goes from June- Aug.

Alaskan,

 Don’t feel behind the power curve when it comes to pitchers. Very very few HS pitchers have great command of 3 or 4 pitches, and anyone who says different is either a liar or a dreamer.

It is the Coach's responsibility to teach the catcher to "call the game". Recently Carl Nichols former MLB catcher and our American Team Coach offers this comment/

Carl Nichols If a coach is calling pitches for me, I don't have to pay attention to what the hitter is doing. I only need to turn my head to the dugout for the next sign. I don't pay attention to what adjustments the hitter is making. I don't pay attention to the pitcher's stuff or the effectiveness of his pitches. I don't pay attention to the umpire's strike zone. I don't pay attention to the score, the situation, who's on deck and more. All those are factors that go into calling pitches. If someone else is doing the thinking, how am I learning?

Bob

PitchingFan posted:

uncoach posted:

PitchingFan posted:

I don't understand the logic of catcher's calling pitches in HS.  With that mentality then you would have to say that QB's should call all the plays in football because they have the best view.  If the coach is doing his job, then he is scouting, even in tournaments, and knows what a player likes to hit or can't hit.  Where the pitch needs to be thrown and what pitch to best help his team.  If he isn't doing that, then he might as well just let the kids play and sit in the stands.  What is the job of a coach?  The same mentality would avail itself when batting.  The batter has the best view so he should call the hitting situations, bunt, steal, delayed steal, hit and run.  The runner has the best view when running bases so you don't need coaches on first or third because the runner has the best knowledge.

Tell me any of this makes sense.  Most coaches I know personally who do not call pitches also do not track the hitters for the other team or scout games or contact other coaches to find out about teams.   Just saying.

That analogy with the QB doesn't fit well. The pitcher and catcher have the best connection to each other and communicate with each other much more than an adult coach would. That catcher knows what pitches and locations the pitcher is feeling that day much better than any adult in the dugout. It's been my observation over the years that coaches, who do call the game, call the Home Run pitch as often as any catcher could.

Then why wouldn't the receivers and running backs have the same intuition with the QB.  You can't say it one way and not believe it the other.  If you trust your pitcher or catcher, then you must trust the QB but no one ever argues that a HS QB should call the plays.  Normally it is catcher's dads or former catchers who say the kids should call the game.   If a coach is doing his job, he should have more information and data and knowledge than a HS kid or he shouldn't be coaching.  If your catcher is more knowledgeable than you on calling pitches, you need a new job.

"If a catcher is smarter than you"? That's laughable. A big part of a coach's job is to develop players. Building smarter players is just as important as physical skill development. Imparting wisdom and passing along knowledge of the game (and being patient) is part of teaching the game.

Uncoach, Is your son or were you a catcher?