Club or HS for summer

Billy Baseball posted:

Here's the scenario, there is a kid who is a big kid who hits well and has a strong arm.  Throws across the diamond low 80's, pitches in the mid to upper 80's.  Strong hitter, but struggles on defense, hasn't played 3rd for very long.  Some college coaches have expressed interest as a pitcher, mostly NAIA and D3 and they want to see him pitch this summer.  High school coach likes his bat, and has said he will not pitch him (big school, deep in pitching).  High School coach also feels strongly that all players should play for his summer team. There is also a club team who would put him at the top of the rotation as a pitcher and have him pitch all summer.  Father is advising son to play for High School team, and see where the cards fall. The kid will likely get some opportunities to play college ball if he continues to develop his pitching.  Kid will not get any opportunities as a 3rd baseman.  Just wondering if I should step in and advise the father to let his son play club.  Kid has expressed interest to play college ball, and will go to college regardless of baseball.  Any thought here?  

BBB

Club ! 

Club will maximize the opportunities for this player.  He's a 2018?  Big difference between expressing interest to play in college vs. determined to play in college, might want to get that clarified...

We had a similar sort of thing happen with our HS Coach the past August.  HS Coach sent out an email stating all HS Varsity players will play with his Legion team for the summer, and not their club team.  I called the coach: told him our son had already committed to play for his club program and we had already paid the initial fees.  I also conveyed to the HS coach the recruiting activity my son was pursuing, and that a number of colleges indicating interest in him wanted to see him play non Showcase competition, and possibly see him play at a few high level tournaments where the colleges coaches normally attended.  (Music City, Nashville and PG WWBA).  

The HS Coach thought he'd be able to get into some high level tournaments.  The Legion team has since struggled to get into select tournaments, and they will only be playing local events.  The HS coach is focused on his program, not the individual player's goals.

We made the right decision.  Son has been a varsity starter since he was a sophomore, and even with our decision to go the Club route vs the HS Coach Legion route, my son has remained a starter and contributor to the HS team.

HOW strongly does HS coach feel about players playing summer with him?  What is the summer season?  How competitive is the HS travel program?  Can he play travel afterward?  Does he play other sports/football?  Does he work with a P instructor?  What year is he?  What is your role in the relationship?  You said he just started playing 3b... how much potential for improvement is there?   

If HS coach feels very strongly about players participating in summer program, be very careful.  Also, with the timing of most HS summer programs, travel can be worked in (maybe late summer/fall).  If there is a summer travel team that will put him top of rotation, there is likely one that will do same in the fall.  Since he hits well, has a good arm and is apparently targeting NAIA and D3, I wouldn't rule out the possibility of him making it as a position player ( with some defensive work and conditioning work).  I am saying this without knowing what exactly is behind your thought that he will not get opportunities as 3B, so you likely have more insight there - if D is that bad, you could be right.

So I guess this is a long winded way of saying we don't have all the info and know the kid's situation as well as you but be careful with advising against the HS coach and try to find other solutions if necessary in regards to pitching.

Good points Cabbage.  I should add to my post that son had always played Legion along with his Club ball for previous two years.  This was the first time the HS Coach said "you will all play Legion with me and no Club."  

My son was fortunate that he was a starter with both solid defensive and offensive skills.  The HS Coach could have very easily left my son on the bench during HS season to make his point.  It could have been dicey, and agree you've got to be careful.  We thought is was a risk worth taking.  Our relationship with HS Coach couldn't be better, he's very supportive of my son's goals.

You say big kid, strong hitter,  biggish arm ....

Stop right there.   Those attributes will  get him lots of looks especially at D3 -- but also at higher levels. 

You say   weak defense -- okay he's not going to be a MIF or play CF. (Can he run?)

But a big sticks speak loudly especially when wielded by a big body.  

Defense -- that can be improved with work.  But sounds like he has that thing that college coaches love above all else - -- MAN STRENGTH -- especially when its accompanied by a swing that allows that strength to be delivered to a baseball in a punishing way.  

They are willing to overlook a whole lot of flaws for that. 

Is "both" at all a feasible option? Hitter on the school team. Starting pitcher only on club team and not attending club games he's not scheduled to pitch.

Lots of great feedback, let me answer some questions to see if that changes anyone's opinion.  The father is my brother in law, known him forever, played high school football with him.  Kid is 6' 2" about 180 - 190 (father is much, much bigger).  Kid was a catcher when he was younger, didn't like catching after he got a little bigger.  As far as playing 3rd, he made a ton of errors this season, but he is settling in.  

For the high school coach, he wants full buy in for his team.  Totally understandable.  Does not want the kid to pitch for another team and get hurt, or be tired for the his team.  

For the college opportunities, the kid wants nothing more than to play college baseball.  I asked him the other day if he would rather win the state championship, or play for a small Community College that is in a small town a couple hours away and he had a hard time answering that.  FYI, this is not a big college kid, would prefer a smaller school regardless.  There is a D3 coach who wants to see him pitch in a game, same for an NAIA, and a D2 coach that recently said he wants to see him pitch.  2 other d3 schools have expressed interest in him playing 3rd, but they see him as a two way guy, so they want him to pitch as well.

I guess the main issue here is what if the kid does play club ball this summer, and then gets cut for his senior season in high school?  This is a very real scenario, and all players and parents believe that if you don't play summer, you don't play spring.  Guess that's a luxury of a big school.  Will any college coach pursue him if he does not play varsity his senior season?

BBB

Do you know how long the HS summer season is?  Ours is only about five weeks, depending on playoffs.  Still time to pursue travel afterward, particularly for good P's.  

What I really like about Gov's second post is that it shows how valuable good communication with coach is.  Even if player doesn't like the answer he hears, I have a gut feeling this would be the best avenue.  Have player ask to sit with HS coach and explain his situation, that he loves his role on the team and is committed but also is at the key point in time when he needs to be active in his recruiting pursuit and has options to pitch for travel teams and is getting interest from colleges as a P.  This, being his key Junior-to-senior season, is very important from that aspect.  With any luck, and done properly, he may find the HS coach can be helpful in more ways than he is aware.

I don't know the coach and have no idea what the response will be but I still think this is the right thing to do and will be best in the long run even if the response is not favorable for travel.

There are other avenues to keep the progress moving forward with his pitching skills and there are certainly fall camps and showcase events.  Also, with NAIA, D3 and JC, the recruiting process continues thru senior season.

Play high school in the summer and Showcase in the late summer/fall.  Travel Teams are, to me, more of a necessary evil and a huge ripoff at some academies.  I get that they have their place but with Showcases and college camps you don't have to go that route

I was a travel coach...a lot of my guys played Legion also...we didn't start until after Legion (immediately after).  Depending on what area of the country you are in, explore possibility of playing for the school summer team and a later summer/fall travel team.  Fall of senior year is prime time D2/D3 recruiting season.  Arm overuse shouldn't be an issue since he is not pitching on school team.  Perhaps he could catch on as a PO and only attend games he is pitching.  A lot of travel teams allow/support that.

I agree with 3and2 that he has to find a way to do both HS and travel/showcases.  He can even sign-up at the showcases as a Pitcher Only.  But lots of them will let him do both and you never know if a coach might like his bat better than his pitching.  If he is an academic kid, get him to either Headfirst or Showball.  If possible do HF in August (should be after HS Summer) and then Showball in November.

As many of us have experienced here, lots of kids wind up playing a different position in college than where their HS coaches played them.  The key is getting exposed to the college coaches who should make the decision of where the best fit is, NOT the HS coach.

Tough spot to be in.  Not doing exactly what a overbearing coach wants can cause problems as my son now deals with. 2018 grad, made jv team as 8th grader as pitcher/ catcher. Freshman yr varsity coach wanted him to go to outside pitching coach. Son liked pitching but prefered catching. Took catching lessons, played catcher on showcase team summer after freshman yr and committed to D1 school that fall. Coach never talked to my wife and I during  recruting  process. Coach and son relationship is bad. Honor student, never been in trouble, coach don't like. Rarely gets in game. My son's decision was good for future not for present. Coaches are concern  about their program. Parents and players  have to balance that with their future plans.  GOOD LUCK

manman posted:

Tough spot to be in.  Not doing exactly what a overbearing coach wants can cause problems as my son now deals with. 2018 grad, made jv team as 8th grader as pitcher/ catcher. Freshman yr varsity coach wanted him to go to outside pitching coach. Son liked pitching but prefered catching. Took catching lessons, played catcher on showcase team summer after freshman yr and committed to D1 school that fall. Coach never talked to my wife and I during  recruting  process. Coach and son relationship is bad. Honor student, never been in trouble, coach don't like. Rarely gets in game. My son's decision was good for future not for present. Coaches are concern  about their program. Parents and players  have to balance that with their future plans.  GOOD LUCK

OK, Manman, it looks like maaayyyybe you didn't buy into everyone's advice and perspective from your original thread.  Some tough questions for you...

Why do you think such a good kid who is a D1 caliber player has a bad relationship with his successful HS coach?  Why did your kid not talk to the HS coach before going a completely different direction than what he was instructed to do?  Do you think you are helping or hurting your son in the process at the present time?

BTW, if you think the HS coaches are more concerned about their programs than their kids, wait til your son gets into the college program.

Apologies for the thread hijack but there is some possible helpful relevance here to OP.

Great advice everyone.  Appreciate the communication.  I plan to relay this advice to my friend tonight, but I'm taking credit for it.  Ha ha.

Club ball!

Swampboy posted:

Is "both" at all a feasible option? Hitter on the school team. Starting pitcher only on club team and not attending club games he's not scheduled to pitch.

This is what I would push for. My son will be a PO for his club team and supplement his position play and hitting with his AAA Legion team. If there is any way to work it out, this, in my opinion, is the best case scenario.