D1 vs JUCO

Thanks

To build on TPM's thoughts...there are coaches that will say they are offering a 100% scholarship but then when you dig deeper the coach clarifies that it doesn't include room and board. Still a great offer however there's a BIG difference in what was implied and the total actual cost of attending the university. 

 

Understand the 11.7 limit.I realize there are other monies involved. Thanks for your knowledge.

1515,

Please stop quoting without a reply, you can answer we will get what you are asking or telling us.

Thank you.

The transfer percent is very high in baseball so did all of them not belong there?  If so guess the d1 coaches are really poor scouts.  the situations I refer to are guys drafted went D1 rather than sign or go juco then had to wait 3 years to be drafted again.  Also know a kid not drafted out of HS went Juco and went in the second round after his freshman year.  I agree with the double sign, some guys however want to go pro sooner than three years.  It's a personal decision.

I think we are telling you that it is a personal decision.

Let's take an example, I will use my son and another Webster here who has given you advice, jerseydad.

My son was a 6-10 round draft consideration out of HS, he chose to ignore the draft because of the money being offered if drafted ( out of HS)and attended Clemson on almost a full scholarship. He was given that out of state money to NOT go pro, IMO.He was drafted later in the second round as a college junior.

 

Jerseydad's son also was a high draft consideration, with a very, very nice offer to UNC. He went pro after the drafting team met the amount he essentially was looking for.

Both players received nice money to finish and attend college, part of the negotiation process. Can yu negotiate  better with an offer from JUCO or UNC. NO!

 

This is a business my friends, coaches conduct it as such and you must as well.

 

Coaches make offers all the time to players that probably should go sign somewhere else and players transfer for all different reasons, the #1 reason, not having enough playing time.  They also do not understand that it is a business.  The guy with the bigger investment (just like MLB) will play more than the others.

Sorry if my son got a rating skill for mid/lower D1 or D2, that's what he can pursue, and IMO for him maybe the JUCO offer may be a better one, but you don't sign at a JUCO if you are rated a top draft prospect out of HS. Son had lots of FL JUCO offers because he was considered a high draft prospect, there is no way it was a consideration.

 

Anyway back to jerseyson and TPMson.  Committing to programs like Clemson and UNC HELPED them to get what they wanted. One was for a big college scholly the other for a very nice signing bonus (who also had a nice scholarship as I mentioned). Neither player had any idea how it would turn out when they first started out, but first and foremost was their desire to get the best offer at the best program they were rated for with intentions of going to college. After that, it becomes personal to each individual player. Its not morally wrong to change your mind either for player or for coach.

 

So yes, it IS a personal decision, and there can be  lots of money on the table if it is done correctly, but never think that commiting to a lesser situation is going to help your situation.  Never compromise! 

 

JMO

note: college revision UNC not UVA

100%     Price did not get that at Vandy...

I talked to a guy that was the recruiting coordinator at SC for like 12 years. He said they had never given anyone 100%  He went on to reel off a couple of 1st round picks that were only getting around 30%.  Just thought I'd thrown that in there. 

A lot of big numbers here.  The reality is most of the players either drafted out of h.s. or college or considered to be drafted out of h.s. or college do not have the type of leverage TPM's son had.  He was a very special talent, so I appreciate her perspective on things.  But for the blue-collar player, be careful.

 

I had a friend whose son was being courted in h.s.  Big kid with a left-handed swing.  Up until draft day, dad was talking 2nd to 5th round.  I think he finally went in the 11th.  This kid who powered homer after homer in h.s. hit exactly ONE in three years of professional baseball.

 

There is a difference between LEVERAGE and what is best for a player.  For some players, going to college is best, to develop and gain the skills necessary to reach the next level.  Some are ready now.

 

What I'm saying is if this is simply a discussion of what's best for a player from a financial or scholastic point of view, leverage comes into play, certainly.  However, from a baseball perspective, things are quite different.  If a kid is talented enough, leverage is thrown out the window.

Good point Bum. My guy was being considered out of HS but broke his leg playing in Australia over the Christmas Holiday in 2007 and required significant surgery. He missed his senior season and was forgotten. He decided to go the JUCO route because he was sure he was still on the radar. But it seemed that that was not the case and he completed a strong freshman season with no apparent interest, his sophomore season he put up monster numbers hit .455 and was a All Conference Pitcher and Infielder as well as All State, Male Athlete of the Year, honorable mention All American, lots of Questionnaires.. Surely this year they would remember him... Nothing. Junior Year at a strong D2, had a great season, hit .373, lots of doubles, triples and a number of HRs.Surely this would be his year. More questionnaires 20+, talk of draft order, Area Scouts assuring him they would get him. Again nothing. Senior year...one of the worst in his life at the plate. Finally came on strong in post season... Lots of questionnaires and finally picked up in the 24th round as a senior sign.

The point I am making is twofold, how fickle the draft and baseball can be as well as how important it is to play and develop each and every day so that if you get that chance you can make the best of it.

A 24th rounder has to prove himself each and every day to earn playing time, not much room for failure in a game defined by it.

D1 is great if you play, D2, D3 or JUCO. The only way to become the player you are capable of being is to play the game in as competitive environment as you can. My son might have worked that better. He chose JUCO thinking that he would get a shot after his freshman year. That obviously did not happen, but he persevered and did all he could to improve his game each and every day. He continues to do so, fortunately because he loves the game, and never wants to stop playing. 

Bum,
My suggestions were based upon the OPs particular situation.
I would never suggest a JUCO situation other than to prepare for a better 4 year situation.
Use your talent and your academics for leverage.  If you do not have that option chose the best option for you based on your academic career goals.   Attending JUCO year after year to better your chance for the draft is what used to be.  If you want to go pro and it isn't about the money than sign.  If it is go to school.  Your signing bonus aspirations won't change if the talent isn't there.  The best development for top prospects are either the best top D1 programs or going pro out of HS.

I've also heard that if you are a pitcher go pro out of high school, because the pro guys will take care of your arm.  You are a valuable and precious commodity to them, whereas a college can view you as disposable and not protect you as much.  

Ryno, this is exactly right.  Fortunately, Bum, Jr. had little success in college ball (5-5 overall) so he wasn't abused.  It worked out perfect, as he got his work in in the summer collegiate leagues (against wood, where he went 16-8 overall).  

 

His mediocre performances against metal but great record against wood told me all I need to know.  He learned very little in college baseball, but a whole ton in the summer against wood.  Ryno is right, if you're a top pitcher, I would shun college baseball.

Son went to college and he wasn't abused, in the slightest. IMO his instruction/treatment was far better than any he has received in pro ball. 

 

ML pitcher Ryan Harvey pitched a lot in college and just now having TJS. Would you say that the risk of going to college was worth it for him?  For Tim Lincecum?  For David Price?  Gerrit Cole?

 

 

TPM, I know you and I disagree about this, and that's okay.  Your son pitched for a great college and not all colleges abuse arms.  Maybe not even a majority.  IMHO however, the pros focus on developing young arms, teaching them pitches that work against wood, and place far less emphasis on wins and junk college sliders that ruin arms.

 

BTW, Tim Lincecum had to go to college to improve his draft status due to size.  But he was ready for pros right out of h.s., winning Gatorade State Player of the Year.  The exact same problem Bum, Jr. had. 

A pitcher has to be careful where he selects to play to protect his arm. I remember watching a WV game and looking at their stat sheet. The starting pitcher's inning stuck out like an alarm. I asked a WV parent about my observation. By chance I chose a pitcher's dad. He went off about the head coach and arm abuse. The coach is no longer there. 

 

From what I understand a previous coach at LSU had a reputation of being hard on pitcher's arms. Check out the record of Rice's starting pitchers who are high draft choices. Most had TJ surgery by their second year in the pros.

ML teams are like college programs, some are better in development than others. 

 

FWIW, DK was encouraged to throw the slider over and over (to improve) in pro ball and I think that had very much to do with his injuries.  FB, slider, FB, slider, FB slider, changeup.  The Tigers got him back to using/relying on his 2 seam sinker, 4 seam FB and change up, which was what got him drafted in the first place. Much better to throw one pitch to get guys out than 3 or more per hitter.  His drafting team also had some crazy piggyback system in place, you pitched one day in a game, rest, bull pen, rest, pitch, rest, bullpen, etc. And then you would switch each rotation from starter to reliever.  But you trained as a starter. Not one pitcher from any draft class until when they stopped really has been successful and most have had minor and  major arm issues to set them back.  I have seen on many different levels pitchers not used enough and then used too much all at once, just like they do in college. Don't ever think that they way they do things is always better.

 

There are a lot of very good college pitching instructors out there, IMO much better than in pro ball (at the lower levels).

 

IMO if the instruction isn't coming from the ML level, it may not be as good as one could find on the higher college level. The rules still remain for each guy, you will be as good as the work you put into it, there are no requirements to show up for instruction (just your bullpens) and no penalty if you don't.  In pro ball, pitchers spend more time in PFP's than in instruction (which may or may not come in spring or a mini camp).

 

FWIW, after the high A level, it is all about winning. 

 

DK was actually a fair college pitcher against metal, and also does much better with wood so I hear what you are saying.

Wow, FB, slider, FB, slider.. etc., no wonder arm problems arose.  It just makes no sense to me for a kid that can throw 98, 99 like DK.  It should be 80-90% fastballs. 

 

I will say this, Bum, Jr. really developed his changeup in the college years, so he's got a pretty good FB, curve, and change repertoire now, all solid pitches.  Prior to his ACL injury, his cutter has also gotten so good been his catcher had five or six passed balls in warmup bullpens so he's planning on mixing that in this year.  I think for the players like Bum, Jr. who have only an average MLB fastball the slider makes no sense, whereas for the harder throwers like DK those guys typically have that power slider.. probably what they were thinking.  But too much too soon, TPM, I agree.

While I agree with most of what you say TPM, think Matt Latos,Fell in the draft out of hs and went to JC one year. It depends on situation. Most upper echelon teams take care of their pitchers,most. Some MLB orgs though seem to not be able to get away from something happening to pitchers, think Marlins while Dontrelle and co. were there. Nothing but problems and surgeries. But I will defer to you on this subject since you are up close and personal with it!

Matt Latos fell in the draft because he really had a weak college commitment and expecting lots of money. I think he signed to Nebraska ?, I know many  college coaches who passed on him because they were afraid he might not make the grades so after the draft he went to JUCO because at that time they had the draft and follow.

 

Dave threw a slider because as a righty he didn't have good curve ball. I agree that the slider is a terrible pitch.  A good out pitch but not one to rely on as much as a FB.

 

Bum,

I think that once your son goes through a full season you will find that things change. They leave the first season guys alone.  Then they start making all kinds of crazy changes...well, you let me know what you think next season.

Hello Floridafan, my son (2016) wants to play for a Div 1 Flordia Juco. Since your son played for one I would greatly appreciate it if you would share your knowledge of the baseball programs and academics of the the colleges you mentioned below.

Thanks for anything you could share.

 

Stay away from Indian River, North Florida, South Florida, and St. Johns River. Unless someone has updated info on these programs. 

TPM, we'll see, but next year is his third season of pro ball so I'm suspecting its put up or shut up.  I doubt they would have him stop throwing his curve though, which has been rated plus.  But he'll do whatever the team asks and with no complaints.

Hey RHPDad... send me a "Dialog".

 

 

Did you have a bad experience with these schools you've listed?

I don't want to bore everyone with my questions and being new to the forum I am not sure how send a private message so I will try to keep it brief. We are outside of the state and we are looking at Florida D1 Juco's for the better year round weather, competition, and the opportunity to earn a roster spot and playing time. We are just starting to attend some showcases and camps in Florida to get a feel for the competition. The only sources of information I have at this point is the College web sites and information on this site and what I can find from experienced parents or players. Based on W/L record, state titles and appearances at Juco World Series State College Florida, Chipola and Palm Beach and a few other look good on paper. I know a win loss record does not give the whole picture of what the school and coaching staff can offer. We visited the South Florida Campus when we were in the area and it looked great compared to the two year schools in our area, which most do not offer sports.My son has good grades, but would prefer to have an opportunity to earn playing time at Juco vs riding the bench as freshman and sophomore at a four year school. Although he is already good size for 15 @ 6' 3" and 185 pounds the two additional years will give him more time to develop physically and improve his skills before trying to earn a spot and playing time at a four year school. I would appreciate anything you would share.

 

Thank you, 

My knowledge is based primarily on my sons journey. So for what its worth...

 

Palm Beach had a very good program when my son played against them. I know several of their players were drafted that year. If the coaching staff is the same, that would be a great destination. College of Florida which used to be Manatee has a very storied history and I would make that location one of my top choices. My son was offered a full ride there along with a meal plan, but he had a brain fart and committed early to an out of state D2 which he eventually decommitted from.

St. Pete has had very good programs over the years, but had a coaching shake up a few years back, so I am not sure about them now.

Daytona State has very high academic standards, and is a good place for pitchers, but I would avoid it if you are a hitter. My son had a great season there, but it took years to rebuild his swing back to his true capability.

Chipola is always a top program, but other then the amount of drafted players I know little about them.

Santa Fe, which is in Gainesville has a very good program and feeds the Gators (UF) from time to time.

 

Just be sure you understand what the competition is like in Florida. It is not like JUCO's in many other states. Playing time is tough to come by for most. My son never had a back up take his position in 2 years of play. In his 2nd year at Polk State, he would move from the Mound, to 3rd or 2B. Never off the field. That means that the players looking for an opportunity to get in the game rarely saw it. It is highly competitive in Florida and many recruits come locally, but Pitchers are recruited from as far away as Canada. So go in with your eyes wide open.

Good advice by FF.

These programs are highly competitive, some better than lower D1 programs, and for many it is a way to feed into FL 4 year program, many are already pretty developed or need to concentrate on their academics.  Some of these players have been advised to play by 4 year programs and many get in on recommendations.  It is quite different than other states.

Because of prepaid tuition and state money for FL players available, they do save athletic money for out of state players, expenses for some of these programs is also high for those coming out of state.

Agree, go in with your eyes wide open.

Thanks for the feedback. I know nothing will come easy and this is why we started looking at the competition at Florida Juco's now. I can only hope that my son works hard these next two years and does well in High School and prepares himself to compete. Not being able to predict the future it's hard to say how he will develop the next two year, but he really wants to play. He is a pitcher and corner infielder that hits well and has some speed. I have asked several times if he wants to focus on the infield because pitchers do not hit at number of colleges. He will just have to work hard at every position he plays over the next two years then re-evaluate his skill set to see where it may lead. We are starting early and only time will tell what his options are. Does anyone have any experience and thoughts on the perfect game. Thank you again for the information.

This explains it.  I woundered why you where a college snob now we know.  Your son had a bad coach experience at the higher level and a good one in college.  Be careful to paint with a broad brush.  Not all situations are the same.  By the way I can show you a bunch of pro pitching coaches that love sliders for power guys. It is a great pitch just not one to abuse like they made your son do.

I do not know of any programs where Pitchers hit or are used in other positions. My son was available to fill a need. If he is a pitcher (and he seems to have the size) focus on pitching. If he is a hitter, focus on hitting and defense.

RHPDad,

There are so many things to consider with 4yr vs Juco and college selection in general.  The fact that your son has good grades affords you so many options.  While JUCO can be a great option for some, it has many potential pitfalls of its own.  Keep studying up.  You can "search" many posts here that address pros and cons.  Academics, desired major, transfer requirements, social and environmental fit, play opportunities, best instruction/development, proximity to home, costs, sense of team, etc.  The list goes on and on.  I think, typically, a high academic kid won't go the JC route.  But every situation is different.  Keep working and don't forget to smell the roses along the way.

Floridafan and Cabbagedad, thanks for your thoughts and information. I ask my son would he still like to pitch knowing down the road that hitting and running the bases will probably not be an option. He says he does not know because he is enjoying it all. At 15 he knows he wants to take baseball as far as can and realizes his grades will effect his opportunities, but that's it. He knows more than I did at his age so I am sure the answers will come as he matures. In the mean time all options are open as he continues to work with a good pitching and hitting coach. This past year he had some minor injuries and I am not sure how much to contribute it, poor form (pitching coach working on it) his growth or playing hard. He had soreness in his hip which kept him off the mound for months. He dove for a hard hit grounder and he had a collision while sliding in at second. MRI showed no tears in hip joint. After months he was cleared to start playing and on the first day I think he threw to hard (not pitching). He has been having soreness that appears to move around from his bicep to shoulder of his throwing arm. Doctor said it was inflammation, recommended ice and anti-inflammatory, but it is still lingering. This has not effected his hitting at all, but this is still a surprise as he never had an injury. To cap it off he gets back on the mound and takes a line drive to the head. Fortunately no concussion, but very scary. I am happy to hear any thoughts you may have on all subject matter especially if anyone has a pitcher that has had some of the same injuries. Any thoughts on Perfect Game? Thanks and a Happy New Year to all.

Florida JUCO's are top notch no doubt about that the weather is definitely a plus for them however when you look at the polls, there are very good JUCO's in Alabama, Tennessee, Georgia , Texas, Cal etc.....even a few in Illinois. 

RHPDad,

As you enter the HS age and practice or play every day, injuries become part of the equation for many or most.  Proper conditioning and arm care become critical. 

 

Regarding Perfect Game, again, you can use the search box here on HSBBW and find tons of info.  If you have specific questions, one of the PG folks posts here regularly and is always generous with helpful info (PGStaff).  In general, PG is considered the most well respected organization of its kind.  Their events, ratings, etc., are consistent and followed by most colleges and MLB organizations.  You can read up on other posts as to best time/year to have your player attend one of their events and whether it makes sense for your particular situation.

RHPDad,

My advice to you. Let your son get over his current injuries and improve upon his skills and see how things develop in the next year or two.

Happy New Year to you and your family.

Interesting stuff here. Listening to this info makes me realize how much of an anomaly Tim Anderson was.