D3 Rosters and Eligibility

Let's say there's an autistic kid enrolled as a full-time student at the college. And, as a freshman he shows up to the baseball coach and expresses his love to be around the game. And, the coach is taken by him. Coach says:  "We like you. You are an inspiration to us. It would be great if you come to the practices and help fill the buckets during BP. And, we'd like to have you in the dugout at home games to help count pitches and chase down foul balls." If the kid takes the coach up on the offer, is he losing a year of eligibility?

No idea, but does it matter? Is he going to transfer to play baseball? At this point if it were my kid I would tell my kid to go with option 2 and focus on his degree. If he isn’t making a D3 roster chances are he isn’t making any other roster. And if he’s planning to target a bottom D3 just to play baseball it seems like a waste of money.

Let's say a kid enrolls in the school as a freshman and asks the coach if he can be an assistant volunteer part time "coach." He will catch bullpens during practices and home games and do whatever needs helping with during practices and home games only. He's never in uniform, just baseball pants and a pullover. If he's doing this, does he lose a year of eligibility?

@TerribleBPthrower posted:

No idea, but does it matter? Is he going to transfer to play baseball? At this point if it were my kid I would tell my kid to go with option 2 and focus on his degree. If he isn’t making a D3 roster chances are he isn’t making any other roster. And if he’s planning to target a bottom D3 just to play baseball it seems like a waste of money.

In my friend's son's case, he's taking the option because he really doesn't want to be a 5 year student. And, besides, there's no where to transfer to where he would be playing baseball anyway. Plus, he likes the school. I'm just curious how you lose a year of eligibility when you are not in uniform for games and not traveling...unless you are listed on a roster as playing?

@Francis7 are you OK?

If you play, practice or coach during the season (even male players for women't teams) then it counts as a year.  So the coach was correct.  Here are the various rules from the handbook (https://web3.ncaa.org/lsdbi/reports/getReport/90011):

14.02.9 Participation in Intercollegiate Athletics. Participation in intercollegiate athletics occurs when a student-athlete either practices in a sport (see Bylaw 17.02.1.1) or competes in a sport, as defined in Bylaw 14.02.6. Eligibility rules for competition may differ from those for practice.

14.1.10 Male Practice Player Eligibility. A male student who practices with a women's team is considered to be a student-athlete in that women's sport. . . .See Bylaw 14.2.4.8 for use of a season of participation and
Bylaw 16.8.1.4 for benefits that a male practice player may receive. [I'd assume this also applies to the autistic example]

14.2 Seasons of Participation: 10-Semester/15-Quarter Rule. A student-athlete shall not engage in more than four seasons of intercollegiate participation in any one sport (see Bylaw 14.2.4.1).

14.2.4 Criteria for Determining Season of Eligibility.
14.2.4.1 Minimum Amount of Participation. A season of intercollegiate participation shall be counted in the student-athlete's sport when a student-athlete participates (practices or competes) during or after the first contest in the traditional segment following the student-athlete's initial participation of that academic year at that institution or when the student-athlete engages in intercollegiate competition during the nontraditional segment in that sport. This provision is applicable to intercollegiate athletics participation (practice or competition) conducted by a Division III collegiate institution at the varsity, junior varsity or freshman team level.

14.2.4.1.1 Exceptions. A season of participation shall not be counted:


(a) During the traditional segment when a student-athlete participates in a preseason scrimmage or preseason exhibition conducted before the first contest following the student-athlete's initial participation of that academic year at that institution;
(b) During the traditional segment when a student-athlete participates in an alumni contest conducted before the first regular-season contest following the student-athlete's initial participation of that academic year at that institution;
(c) In baseball, field hockey, lacrosse, soccer, softball and volleyball, when a student-athlete participates (practices or competes) during the nontraditional segment.

14.2.4.1.3 Student Managers and Student Coaches. A season of participation shall be counted when a student manager or student coach participates as a team member in practice or other physical activities during the time frame set forth in Bylaw 14.2.4.1. A student coach or student manager's role should be limited to performing traditional
coaching or managerial duties.

Thank you Anotherparent.  Apparently I'm the ignoramus. But to be fair, my freshman kid who is about to be redshirted just told me he is allowed to practice with team and not count as a year.  I'll delete the above.

Your freshman is at a D2, I think, but perhaps you had better double-check the D2 manual to see about eligibility, which may well be different outside of D3.

D2 and D3 can have unlimited rosters, but D2s also have scholarships, so what it means to be "on the roster" but not play is different, I'm sure, and also different from D1, where if you don't play all season, you are a redshirt with eligibility - and presumably you are practicing.

Looked it up.  Sorry about my previous post Francis.  You can practice with team in D1/D2 during the playing season as a redshirt but not at D3.

@anotherparent posted:

Your freshman is at a D2, I think, but perhaps you had better double-check the D2 manual to see about eligibility, which may well be different outside of D3.

D2 and D3 can have unlimited rosters, but D2s also have scholarships, so what it means to be "on the roster" but not play is different, I'm sure, and also different from D1, where if you don't play all season, you are a redshirt with eligibility - and presumably you are practicing.

My son was D2. Now, Juco. But, this is not about him.

FWIW,at my son's D2, I do know that all the freshman red shirts took place in practices. I don't believe that they traveled on road games. Probably not for financial reasons.

@SpeedDemon posted:

@Francis7 are you OK?

I just feel bad for my son's friend. Seems tough to lose a year of eligibility basically just because you are somewhat around the team as a student.

@anotherparent posted:

If you play, practice or coach during the season (even male players for women't teams) then it counts as a year.  So the coach was correct.  Here are the various rules from the handbook (https://web3.ncaa.org/lsdbi/reports/getReport/90011):

14.02.9 Participation in Intercollegiate Athletics. Participation in intercollegiate athletics occurs when a student-athlete either practices in a sport (see Bylaw 17.02.1.1) or competes in a sport, as defined in Bylaw 14.02.6. Eligibility rules for competition may differ from those for practice.

14.1.10 Male Practice Player Eligibility. A male student who practices with a women's team is considered to be a student-athlete in that women's sport. . . .See Bylaw 14.2.4.8 for use of a season of participation and
Bylaw 16.8.1.4 for benefits that a male practice player may receive. [I'd assume this also applies to the autistic example]

14.2 Seasons of Participation: 10-Semester/15-Quarter Rule. A student-athlete shall not engage in more than four seasons of intercollegiate participation in any one sport (see Bylaw 14.2.4.1).

14.2.4 Criteria for Determining Season of Eligibility.
14.2.4.1 Minimum Amount of Participation. A season of intercollegiate participation shall be counted in the student-athlete's sport when a student-athlete participates (practices or competes) during or after the first contest in the traditional segment following the student-athlete's initial participation of that academic year at that institution or when the student-athlete engages in intercollegiate competition during the nontraditional segment in that sport. This provision is applicable to intercollegiate athletics participation (practice or competition) conducted by a Division III collegiate institution at the varsity, junior varsity or freshman team level.

14.2.4.1.1 Exceptions. A season of participation shall not be counted:


(a) During the traditional segment when a student-athlete participates in a preseason scrimmage or preseason exhibition conducted before the first contest following the student-athlete's initial participation of that academic year at that institution;
(b) During the traditional segment when a student-athlete participates in an alumni contest conducted before the first regular-season contest following the student-athlete's initial participation of that academic year at that institution;
(c) In baseball, field hockey, lacrosse, soccer, softball and volleyball, when a student-athlete participates (practices or competes) during the nontraditional segment.

14.2.4.1.3 Student Managers and Student Coaches. A season of participation shall be counted when a student manager or student coach participates as a team member in practice or other physical activities during the time frame set forth in Bylaw 14.2.4.1. A student coach or student manager's role should be limited to performing traditional
coaching or managerial duties.

Thanks @anotherparent

Fascinating that being a student manager can cost you a year of eligibility

Does it matter if he’s going to graduate in 4 years? It’s great he’ll have something to somewhat be a part of and sort of still enjoy his passion while getting a degree.

Lets say a kid is heading to practice, is abducted by aliens and misses practice. His coach cuts him for missing practice. BUT... the next day our new alien overlords invade earth. Does the player lose a year of eligibility?

@nycdad posted:

Lets say a kid is heading to practice, is abducted by aliens and misses practice. His coach cuts him for missing practice. BUT... the next day our new alien overlords invade earth. Does the player lose a year of eligibility?

NCAA would probably give everyone an extra year.

@TerribleBPthrower posted:

Does it matter if he’s going to graduate in 4 years? It’s great he’ll have something to somewhat be a part of and sort of still enjoy his passion while getting a degree.

Will he be enjoying his passion? Not sure I would try and sell this to the thousands of D3 kids that find themselves in this situation every year?

@nycdad posted:

Lets say a kid is heading to practice, is abducted by aliens and misses practice. His coach cuts him for missing practice. BUT... the next day our new alien overlords invade earth. Does the player lose a year of eligibility?

wait. He's abducted but survives without being gutted or having his eyes plucked out (google cattle mutilation) and the aliens allow for baseball to continue?  No way he should lose a year.  He gets to play ball for 4 years; while saving the world of course.

@Francis7 posted:

Will he be enjoying his passion? Not sure I would try and sell this to the thousands of D3 kids that find themselves in this situation every year?

There are thousands of kids at D3 schools who get offered team manager spots because they weren’t good enough to make the roster?

@Francis7 posted:

I just feel bad for my son's friend. Seems tough to lose a year of eligibility basically just because you are somewhat around the team as a student.

I'm confused.  D3s have no roster limits, but still, only about 20 players get meaningful playing time, and they all lose their year's eligibility.  Why is this student not best off practicing with the team? otherwise how will he maintain or improve skills?  He can't impress the coaches if he just vanishes; what do you think would happen if he came back next year?  And maybe he will enjoy being around the team.

@TerribleBPthrower posted:

There are thousands of kids at D3 schools who get offered team manager spots because they weren’t good enough to make the roster?

No. But I bet, across all of D3 every year, there's probably 1 to 3 thousand kids who get cut before the spring and then are in no man's land. But, that's just a guess and I could be wrong?

@anotherparent posted:

I'm confused.  D3s have no roster limits, but still, only about 20 players get meaningful playing time, and they all lose their year's eligibility.  Why is this student not best off practicing with the team? otherwise how will he maintain or improve skills?  He can't impress the coaches if he just vanishes; what do you think would happen if he came back next year?  And maybe he will enjoy being around the team.

At least those other kids are actually in a uniform and have a chance to play even if it's just one game. That seems like at least getting something for your year of eligibility.

BTW, not blaming the coach or the school here. More so, it's the NCAA rules here that seem excessive for these situations.

And, yes, there's really little choice here. It's either quit the game, take these scraps, or transfer midyear to a juco...maybe?

FWIW, if anyone could pull off a Rudy story, it would be my friend's son. You're not going to find a kid who loves the game more, respects the game more, stays as far away from trouble as possible, and will fight to his last breath to make a team. I'm rooting for him and seeing him in a uniform next year would be awesome.

@Francis7 posted:

No. But I bet, across all of D3 every year, there's probably 1 to 3 thousand kids who get cut before the spring and then are in no man's land. But, that's just a guess and I could be wrong?

You think there are thousands of D3 kids cut every year who are looking for a place to keep playing? As mentioned above, there are no roster limits in D3. If a coach isn’t willing to give a kid a uniform, it is probably time to focus on academics and your future career.

I would guess there are probably less D3 kids in this scenario than all other divisions combined.

This post is for the less experienced people on HSBBW. Although I think @Francis7 didn’t mean it this way, his comment about this player transferring to a JuCo at semester does have implications. It implies that JuCo is the easiest level for a player to make a roster. And while that could be true at one of the worst JuCos in your area, as a generalization it’s very flawed logic. You have to consider regional differences in the level of play in both JuCo and D3 baseball. Then within each region you have to consider the range in talent within each class (JuCo & D3). And you have to consider roster limits. I will use Texas as an example. D3 baseball here is good but not great. Most teams carry large rosters with effectively no limit. Even the D3 JuCos in Texas (and there are only a handful) have roster limits. In Texas the easiest place to make a roster is the lowest level D3 & NAIA programs. If you can’t do that (and tbh it’s hard to imagine why anyone would want to) it’s time to quit playing baseball. At our D1 JuCo in West Texas we will be cutting some kids at semester that could make almost any four year D3 school in the state. Most of the D1 JuCos in Texas ( and a couple of the D3 JuCos) would routinely win a 3 game series against any of the 4 year D3 schools in this region. Primarily because of superior pitching but that’s beside the point. As a generalization, JuCo ball in Texas is better that D3 baseball in Texas. Not that I’m a fan of generalizations. But I wish that people would get educated about JuCo and not look at it as a last resort. It isn’t. Even academically it isn’t. A couple of years ago I advised a local LHP (and his parents) to take an offer from McLennan Community College in Waco - even though they are a conference rival. He is a HA kid from a a HA family so they were skeptical at first. But I convinced them that he could get anywhere from McLennan. Last year Stefan was All Conference on the field and an All American in the classroom. Last week he signed his NLI to attend Rice University next year. JuCo presents more opportunities than limits and it’s high time that people start viewing it that way.

@anotherparent posted:

I'm confused.  D3s have no roster limits, but still, only about 20 players get meaningful playing time, and they all lose their year's eligibility.  Why is this student not best off practicing with the team? otherwise how will he maintain or improve skills?  He can't impress the coaches if he just vanishes; what do you think would happen if he came back next year?  And maybe he will enjoy being around the team.

I’ll say unless the kid improves dramatically he’s not doing to make it next year either. The coach has everything to gain. Chances are the coach never thinks about the kid again. Or, the kid practices with the team for a year, improves dramatically and might be a contributor for three years. The odds of him ever becoming a starting position player or starting pitcher are slim.

@TerribleBPthrower posted:

You think there are thousands of D3 kids cut every year who are looking for a place to keep playing? As mentioned above, there are no roster limits in D3. If a coach isn’t willing to give a kid a uniform, it is probably time to focus on academics and your future career.

I would guess there are probably less D3 kids in this scenario than all other divisions combined.

If you can’t get rostered on a D3 team the baseball gods are sending you a message. I’m sure it’s happened. But, I’ve never heard of a kid transferring within D3 for a better opportunity to play. They’re more likely to determine the baseball train has stopped at the last station.

“Last stop. All out!”

One of my 13-16u travel players sat the bench for four years at a ranked HA. He wasn’t going to walk away from what the school offered academically. I know a few kids who were recruited to another HA D3 who decided baseball was over after sitting or not dressing and playing a couple of JV games for two years.

To emphasis the variance in JuCos adbono is discussing …

The low end is in our town (lived there when kids were in school) where players who didn’t start in high school played. They average losing by ten runs per game. They became nationally known because a 56yo retired guy made the team.

On the other end are the 1999 and 2020 national championship teams at Grayson in Texas. Every player who got on the field was drafted led by John Lackey. Grayson is where Tim Tadlock, current Texas Tech coach proved his coaching abilities and moved up the ladder. The only place you will find the coach of the former example is at the corner bar.

We have an NAIA school here that routinely has 90+ kids in the fall.  There are regularly in the Top 20 in the country.   Has a Varsity and 2 JV teams.   The school is inexpensive but their facilities are top notch.....actually better than my son's D1 had lol.   Their teams (baseball & men's and women's soccer) are full of international students.  The level of player varies from kids throwing 95+ that get drafted...to kids who were the #9 hitter on a bad local HS team.   My son actually coached there for half a season after he graduated (then Covid hit).  He was surprised at how good the top 5-10 guys were....but also couldn't believe how bad the bottom 20-30 were and that they were even playing college baseball.  There are a lot of D3's in Ohio....maybe more than any other state.  The NAIA school would beat most of them.   The word around here is that the HC's salary is actually dependent on how many kids he has in the fall.....as only a small amount of them are getting baseball money.  The rest are basically paying to play college baseball

@Buckeye 2015 posted:

We have an NAIA school here that routinely has 90+ kids in the fall.  There are regularly in the Top 20 in the country.   Has a Varsity and 2 JV teams.   The school is inexpensive but their facilities are top notch.....actually better than my son's D1 had lol.   Their teams (baseball & men's and women's soccer) are full of international students.  The level of player varies from kids throwing 95+ that get drafted...to kids who were the #9 hitter on a bad local HS team.   My son actually coached there for half a season after he graduated (then Covid hit).  He was surprised at how good the top 5-10 guys were....but also couldn't believe how bad the bottom 20-30 were and that they were even playing college baseball.  There are a lot of D3's in Ohio....maybe more than any other state.  The NAIA school would beat most of them.   The word around here is that the HC's salary is actually dependent on how many kids he has in the fall.....as only a small amount of them are getting baseball money.  The rest are basically paying to play college baseball

I was curious so I checked. I scrolled through looking for long lists .. top five

NY - 65

PA - 61

MA - 40

OH - 22

IL - 21

The alien invasion happened decades ago. I was somehow brained washed into believing baggy/saggy pants were fashionable. But seriously in this current climate losing 1 year to get better and possibly (however unlikely) to play 3 would be an easy tradeoff for that kid. My newest rant/annoyance is the silly "nil"club makes me wish for the days of Amway

@RJM posted:

I was curious so I checked. I scrolled through looking for long lists .. top five

NY - 65

PA - 61

MA - 40

OH - 22

IL - 21

Do they all have baseball programs? Crazy we have that many here in NY.

@nycdad posted:

Do they all have baseball programs? Crazy we have that many here in NY.

I searched D3 athletic programs.

@RJM posted:

I was curious so I checked. I scrolled through looking for long lists .. top five

NY - 65

PA - 61

MA - 40

OH - 22

IL - 21

I had no idea that other states had that many D3 schools

@Buckeye 2015 posted:

I had no idea that other states had that many D3 schools

I would bet that NJ has a handful of D1s, maybe 2 D2s and a ton of D3s.

https://www.d3baseball.com/navbar-teams

Here you go @Francis7, go crazy!

This includes all NCAA divisions, NAIA & JUCO.   Looks like a pretty good resource to get the "lay of the land".  Clicked on TX and I couldn't believe how many JUCOs compared to others.   

http://www.atballiance.org/college-bb-websites.html

PS...I'd never heard of ATBA, and they are somehow associated with NVTBL (Northern Virginia Travel Baseball League.  I live in VA, and this is new to me but my time is typically spent on the golf course these days.

@fenwaysouth

Great site. Thanks. I wonder if it could be pinned at the top of the site somewhere for reference for new members.

NY has a NAIA school...who would have thunk it?

@TPM posted:

@fenwaysouth

Great site. Thanks. I wonder if it could be pinned at the top of the site somewhere for reference for new members.

Good point @TPM.  I'll create a separate thread by itself.

According to CollegeBaseballInsights.com:

Pennsylvania has 53 D3 baseball programs, New York 52, Massachusetts 37, Wisconsin 23, Ohio 22, Illinois, 22, New Jersey 15, Indiana 9, Michigan, 8 and Missouri, where we live, has...4.

This isn't a complete listing, just a sampling...