Enough is enough.........Pitch Counts- 177

So, Indiana HS kids can pitch 20 innings a week?

Typically, I'm not one to immediately go to the "bat-phone" and call the AD. My generation invented the helicopter parents, and I'm not proud of it. However in this case, I really question the coaches judgement and it can lead to serious health problems for some of his (pitcher) players. You need to do something. In this case I think it warrants a frank face to face conversation with the coach and possibly a call to the AD. That is a lot of pitching.

Just because you can throw 10 innings between 72 hrs doesn't mean you should....kind of like the Autobahn.....just because there is no speed limit doesn't mean you should go as fast as you possibly can.

Where were the Jr. pitcher's parents? Ultimately - when the coach is endangering their child - it is still their responsibility. It also appears that Jr. pitcher is not in a position to protect himself as he was caught up in the heat of the competative moment. We need to remember that these players are still not adults and coaches and ultimately parents must protect them even when unpopular. No high school game is worth blowing out an arm. I agree that this situation demands action.

coached back when there were no rules about innings pitched. as a matter of fact pitch counts were still in the future. How was that possible? I have an opinion. Seems like there was something called common sense back then? Just a thought.

Yes. In Indiana a pitcher can throw 20 innings in a week if the coach wants to. The rule was mainly to protect the kids for sectionals where they usually play on Saturday with the championship on Monday. So a stud pitcher can't throw 7 on Saturday and be asked to go again Monday.
His parents weren't at this game as far as I know.

This happened on Wednesday night and now this morning I was told by our 13 that the kid who is in charge of clicking the pitch counter was told by the coaches to STOP COUNTING in the sixth inning. I guess the coach didn't realize that I was scoring the whole game on my tablet using I-Score. I am the official scorer for a summer travel team and just do it for my own sake at the HS games. 13 also said that the assistant that keeps the book is claiming he thought the pitcher was around 125. Now before this year I kept all my books on paper. It isn't hard to count and get the exact # of pitches. To be off by 50? I spoke with one other parent who is on the school board after the game and I honestly think he warned the coach how angry I was about this and the coach made up this 125 number to try and justify it somehow leaving him in the game.

I was ready to confront the coach after the game but honestly had to hold myself back because I was so angry at him that I knew I would end up more yelling than communicating. I truly felt in that moment that he should be fired for doing that and I still do. In my mind that is truly abusing the kid even if the kid is so stubborn and wants to stay in the game.

Is the Jr. pitcher even a marginal college prospect? He doesn't seem to have the temperament to move farther along anyway.

The SS should have cleaned his clock right after the game.

The head coach should have been the one to take the pitcher out.

Stand back and watch all the foolishness....it should be entertaining the rest of the year.

20 innings a week is not a limit, obviously. The arm sling business must be strong there.

Give the local newspaper the pitch count.


Just be aware that the coach will say your pitch count is wrong.

WOW ! Our high school coach has a limit and he does not care if he is in the state finals (which he has been) from what I have witnessed when you are getting close to 75 pitches for JV and 100 for varsity you are really close to coming out. If you only need one out for a complete game and your at 100 he might let you get the out, I doubt you would ever start a new inning once you are at 90-95 .....and we have very very few arm injuries due to overuse.

The parents of this pitcher should be turned in for child abuse. The coach should be at the very least put on suspension.

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Originally posted by bacdorslider:
The parents of this pitcher should be turned in for child abuse.

Per above

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His parents weren't at this game as far as I know.

Oh sorry, I did not see that post at the time...

Then I would be requesting a meeting with the AD, the coach and so on.... ANYONE that is in coaching today knows you do not throw a pitcher 177 pitches or 10 2/3 innings in 72 hours.

The medical information is out there....I tore my supraspinatus and subscanpurlaris as well as my bicep tendon and had a a major shoulder surgery and 6 months of rehab... this coach needs to be dealt with and I was an adult at the time not a high school jr.

I for one can appreciate your concern. I wish more people would speak up when they see deliberate abuse like this on our student-athletes instead of sitting by and condoning it.

As you can see there are several ways to handle this situation. I applaud you for not attacking after the game because emotions definitely would have been flying and nothing would have been accomplished. Calmer heads always prevail.

I cant really detect your affiliation with the team other than score keeper so if that's the case then you really have nothing to lose (other than the score keeper job! lol) but to me it's worth it. I'd have a sit down with the coach and just have an adult, mature chat with him about it. BUT, I think I might bring another parent with me to the meeting as a witness. That way nothing can be said or not said that a witness can't affirm or deny on BOTH parts.

I for one would not let this go past 1-2 weeks either. Something of this magnitude needs immediate attention. IMO

Best of luck to you.

YGD

I am not the scorekeeper for the team. As I said I do that extra(for my own sake) on the sidelines. I am the older brother(10 Years Older) of the teams #2 pitcher and #3 hitter who is a sophomore this year. I am an assistant and the scorekeeper for his summer travel team. I do not so much worry about 13 losing playing time as he is a very important piece to the team. As is our ace the Jr. pitcher.

As for the pitcher being a college prospect. He is a lefty that throws into the low 80's. He is 5'10" and I wouldn't expect him to grow anymore. I think mid 80's is quite possible for him by next year and he would like to play some college baseball.

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I'd have a sit down with the coach and just have an adult, mature chat with him about it. BUT, I think I might bring another parent with me to the meeting as a witness.

What does it take to call this coach out and contact the AD ? Does the player need to actually get hurt before we go to this level?

We just had a good coach bad coach discussion, this is a bad coach that needs to be dealt with swiftly and harshly. 16 years old ONE HUNDRED AND SEVENTY_SEVEN pitches, not to mentiont the pre-game bullpen and 7-8 pitches between innings, that's upwards of
270 pitches..........
And the coach the told the player counting with the pitch counter to stop counting pitches?

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Originally posted by AntzDad:
So, Indiana HS kids can pitch 20 innings a week?

I haven’t updated it for several months, but I think this list is substantially correct, and may be the only one that lists all or most of the state limitations.

The one I find the most bizarre is Louisiana, but there are many that make me scratch my head in wonder.

http://www.infosports.com/scor...images/pitlimits.pdf

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11.3.5 The number of innings a pitcher may pitch during a calendar week (Sunday-Saturday)
shall be determined by the principal.
http://www.lhsaa.org/images/db_handbook/49.pdf

Wow this is pretty stupid what Louisiana does. I'm amazed at how varied each state is compared to other states. I wonder why the NFHS doesn't come up with a set standard that everyone has to follow?

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Originally posted by Will:
coached back when there were no rules about innings pitched. as a matter of fact pitch counts were still in the future. How was that possible? I have an opinion. Seems like there was something called common sense back then? Just a thought.

Coming from that time myself, I’d agree common sense was more common, but the facts are, there were coaches who didn’t use it, and the players had absolutely no protection. That’s the reason pitching limits came into being. They are there for the majority, but rather the minority.

Over the last few years I’ve had this same discussion many times, often with umpires. Their argument was inevitably that there were no problems, and the proof was that they never had any complaints in their stats about broken pitch limitations. One day I finally got tired of that argument and decided to see if I could find out why.

Well, when there’s a rule like in Texas where a pitcher can throw unlimited inning a day if only in one game, or 10 a day if more than 1 game, its no wonder there’s never been a violation! Once I was armed with that list, suddenly that defense was no good, and a lot of folks like myself have begun asking a lot of questions.

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Originally posted by coach2709:
Wow this is pretty stupid what Louisiana does. I'm amazed at how varied each state is compared to other states. I wonder why the NFHS doesn't come up with a set standard that everyone has to follow?

When I 1st made that list, there were some folks at ASMI who were interested in the same thing. But as far as I know, NFHS has never taken an “official” position on it.

I have a suspicion that one thing causing so much of a difference, is weather. If a team plays north of the sunbelt, it can very often mean a lot of games have to be played every week. Here in Ca, the limit is 30 outs per week, and it turns out its one of the most strict. But to be honest, we seldom need to play more than 3 games a week because we get to start in mid-Feb and don’t have many cancellations that need made up.

But in some states they can’t even start playing until late mid to late April, and its difficult getting in 20-30 games in time to have the post season playoffs.

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Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
Give the local newspaper the pitch count. Just be aware that the coach will say your pitch count is wrong.

If Base_ball03 kept a pitch by pitch record in Iscore, then his pitch count will have very high credibility. Just print it out or replay back the game and transfer it to paper. The basic outline of the game (baserunners, who made outs, runs, etc.) will match the official book, and it will be easy for anyone looking at that record to see the Iscore pitch count has to be nearly correct.

I think the newspaper approach is a good one, since both teams appear to have overused their pitchers. It looks like balanced reporting, rather than a vendetta against one coach.

Agreed both coaches at fault.....

You can put all the rules in place you want to. You can have a book of rules as thick as a phone book. None of that is going to matter without some common sense, character and integrity. A kid can throw 200 pitches in practice, make numerous throws in practice and then pitch one inning the next day in a game and blow out his arm. Hey he only pitched one inning? A kid can be brought in from SS without warming up to replace the guy on the hill. Get 8 warm up pitches and then labor for numerous pitches and blow out his arm. Hey he only threw one inning? The scenarios are endless.

Its not the innings thrown its the number of pitches, the fatigue or lack of fatigue coming into the situation, the prep that has gone into throwing, etc etc etc.

We have books and books of laws and people still break them, go around them, under them and do whatever they have to do to get around them if they want to. It has always come down to the person making the decision to do the right thing and to have enough common sense to know what the right thing is.

If you have to have a rule to make you do the right thing then you dont have any business coaching in the first place. If you have to have someone tell you or make you do the right thing you are better off and so are your players if you find something else to do.

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Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:
If Base_ball03 kept a pitch by pitch record in Iscore, then his pitch count will have very high credibility. Just print it out or replay back the game and transfer it to paper. The basic outline of the game (baserunners, who made outs, runs, etc.) will match the official book, and it will be easy for anyone looking at that record to see the Iscore pitch count has to be nearly correct.

I think the newspaper approach is a good one, since both teams appear to have overused their pitchers. It looks like balanced reporting, rather than a vendetta against one coach.

Trust me, there is absolutely no system where the input can be modified at a later time that won’t be cheated on. The only way I know of, is the way I do it. I keep score, I keep the scoresheet, and no one but me touches it. If the coach needs a copy, that’s what he’ll get, a copy. I do the stats, and no one be me has the password to modify them, and I have software that checks whatever is on-line for the public to see, with what I have off-line that no one else has access to.

But I’m not a normal SK/StatGnat. I have absolutely no ties to the team, other than I like scoring baseball games and doing stats. Sure I like the parents and the kids, but I think they’d all tell you that the chances of me giving someone a break because I liked or didn’t like them, isn’t very likely.

And as an aside, iScore’s claim that: You do not need to know how to keep a scorebook to use ESPN iScore Baseball, is horse bleep! Keeping score isn’t just writing things on a scoresheet or putting them into some type of electronic device. If you can’t tell the difference between a PB and a WP, and don’t know what constitutes each, your scoresheet will be neato keen and have loads of bells and whistles, but it will be wrong and the resulting numbers will be no better than if you used a rock and a piece of chalk.

The only thing that will ever resolve this kind of thing, is when SK’s are paid just like umpires, and are scheduled the same way. Unfortunately, we all know that’s never gonna happen.

Found another bad coach today. We played a team that we ended up winning 13-4. Their starting pitcher pitched 6 long innings and threw a minimum of 144 pitches. I say minimum because I was once again keeping score on Iscore but in the beginning a little rain shower passed through and when I was going to my vehicle to get an umbrella I missed some counts so just filled in as if they were 1 pitch at bats which they were not. So really the kid threw 150 in a game they lost by 9.
Guess now that there are for sure three coaches making terrible decisions about the safety of their pitchers in less than a week it should be easy to get the local paper to write an article.
Just wish there was more I could do to help stop this madness.

Are you pretty sure the iScore thingy is counting the pitches correctly? It could have a bug, I guess. (I'm not trying to be rude.)

I hate to say this but if it isn't your child, and you aren't involved in the program then you probably shouldn't get involved. Personally, I would go and talk to the kid's parents and let them handle it, if they well.

Short of that I'm not sure what you should do since it isn't your kid. Maybe an anonymous letter to the AD saying you saw this and maybe he should investigate but if you get directly involved you may just get some resentment from the very same people you are trying to help.

As for me, if it was my son out there I would have walked out on the field and dragged him off of it. I don't care what the coach says, he isn't the one that will have to pay for the surgery on my son's arm after the season is over.

Just saw a kid throw 122 in a 7 inning game. Not the first time he's been over 100 this year.

Parents know, don't care, at least in the present. Hope he won't require surgery, but all that wear and tear ... Whatever happened to better safe that sorry?

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Originally posted by Wklink:



As for me, if it was my son out there I would have walked out on the field and dragged him off of it.

Now THAT would create some press interest in the issue!

I probably wouldn't have done it but I would have told the coach that if he ever did it again he would be one pitcher short for the rest of the season. I would have broken my cardinal rule of not interfering with the coaches and their decisions and would have started banging on the side of the dugout yelling at him to get my son out of there.

Honestly, there is no excuse for ever letting a teenager throw over 150 pitches. Ever. Luckily I have never had anyone try something like that with my boys.

This one might offend you, if so don't read it.

We all have a right to sit back and contemplate the foolishness of another person's actions. However, when that contemplation turns into a call to action we need to carefully consider the path we intend to take. As in most of these pitch count incidents, I see no practical reason to go sticking your nose where it might get cut off.

But to take some kind of critical action like whistle blowing on the coach to the AD.....it leaves you open to criticism of your motives.

"I see someone pitching too much, I know better than the coach of that team, I'm going to stop him from this, if that kid can't quit pitching so much I can make it happen, I can be the hero and make all these people understand the proper way to handle a pitcher, I'll get the coach suspended or fired, everyone will be impressed with my knowledge and courage. Enough is enough."

Why isn't the opposing coach refusing to put player's in the batter's box against a pitcher that has thrown x amount of pitches. Stupid right? Or how about the umpire? But how about you?

I just can't seem to understand why anyone would think that there is any call to action here period. As in the other coach and the umpire, it's not your place, it's not your purpose, and it's not even an effective way of correcting the problem.

If you want to set out on a campaign to educate others on the reality of pitcher's abuse by sponsoring a seminar taught by an accepted expert in the field, then that might be a worthwhile project.

The example of this is of a college coach pushing a pitcher beyond any reasonable limits. The young pitcher had been out twice this season with labrum problems.

Conference tournament comes around. This young man is the top pitcher in the conference. The pitcher went 8 innnings and threw 151 pitches.

I know the young man is a competitor and probably did not want to come out of the game. At some point the coach needs to be the man and do what is right to protect the arm of a college pitcher who has the ability to pitch at the next level.

Royals

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None of that is going to matter without some common sense, character and integrity. A kid can throw 200 pitches in practice, make numerous throws in practice and then pitch one inning the next day in a game and blow out his arm.

coach may

whats next they will tell you how many ground balls you can hit your infielders in practice? How many pitches a kid can throw in the bullpen on an off day or even the day of a game? I read where a kid threw 180 plus pitches in a game. He was losing 8-0 in the 3rd inning and went the distance.Lost. do not know but don't you think he was not doing too good after 3? Take him out? just a thought.

I have no idea what is next. Some more rules I guess. Nothing will ever replace common sense.

I have been reading over this and IMO, unless my son was involved I would keep my mouth shut. Unless you really want to take it further, be prepared to follow through.
My opinion is that at this point (HS), if parents (yes I do blame this on them) are not educated as to the dangers of too many pitch counts, and what can happen, then you are not going to change that. I have to think that most likely neither one of these pitchers will likely go forward, the win today is more important than the future.

I doubt if my son was going forward after HS I would really care and I suspect so would the coach.

JMO.

TPM,

With all due respect, that’s precisely why there’s so many problems in this particular area. What difference does it make if a player’s going on or not?

This season we’ve had our pitchers go over 100 4 times for a max of 112 in 24 games. Our opponents have had 6 pitchers do the same, at a max of 131. That’s 10 pitchers in 24 games, or about 1 every other game, and I think most other teams would find it much the same.

Does that mean there’s an epidemic of blown elbows and torn rotators? I don’t know, but you can bet your life that in general there’s more of a chance of a player being injured when throwing a lot of pitches than not. By your standard, no one should say dinky doo unless it their kid because its none of their business. Well, you and I have a disagreement there. If I can contribute to some kid 1 few years down the line with a dad who hasn’t got a clue, being kept from being overused/abused by some coach, I feel its my obligation to the game to make it happen. Its nothing less than I’d hope someone would do for my kid if I didn’t know any better, or yours.

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If I can contribute to some kid 1 few years down the line with a dad who hasn’t got a clue, being kept from being overused/abused by some coach, I feel its my obligation to the game to make it happen.

Do you feel this passionate about all of life's social inequities? You won't find that your commitment to the cause is appreciated by all, especially the ones you are trying to save. What you plan to do is no more fulfilling than turning whales around into the sea only to have them beach themselves again.

The pitching abuse problem is complex. You can't will it to be fixed by mounting a bully pulpit. You can certainly be part of the answer if you chose to be part of a team. As a pitching coach, do your thing and let others do theirs.

How many of these coaches really want the same pitcher laboring on the mound for a hundred or more pitches? If they had a better option, they'd be getting them warmed up and in the game. There is a drought of good pitching in a lot of these high school programs. Kids today are abandoning the game by the scores. It is becoming more elite in nature and the average to poor teams are suffering.

You are guy that understands statistics. There's not much chance of of high school kid moving on to be a productive college pitcher. And a minuscule chance to get to be a professional. These kids know this and most of them are creating memories on the high school field. Why don't we let them paint the picture? They are the ones that will have to look at it the rest of their lives. I know if I were mom or dad and you made it your business......it might be a long time before you cared about anything I did again.

Many times it's better to let people learn the hard way. Today's game is about survival of the smartest. If some kid that represents competition for my kid, wants to throw his arm out before he gets to college........oh well it stinks to be him.

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I have been reading over this and IMO, unless my son was involved I would keep my mouth shut.

I'm with TPM on this one. Leave this one up to the rules, coach, parent and player.

Most pitcher's parents that I know set up parameters with their children and the player's follow through with the coach.

177 is ridiculous but hey Im not that kid, his parent or his coach and I do not know what he is capable of or what he wants for his future.

Where did the 100 number come from anyway? Why is 100 better than 120? Does anyone know? Did ASMI just pick a number out of a hat?

In 1980, 20% of MLB games the pitcher threw complete games, now the number is closer to 4%. Yet, we have more injuries.

Is the real issue fatigue (and change in technique)?

Just asking here.

Here is an interesting chart (Times when a starter went over a certain pitch limit. From STATS Inc. ):
Year 120 + 140 + Highest
1998 475 21 152 (Livan Hernandez)
1999 414 11 153 (Pedro Astacio)
2000 400 6 148 (Ron Villone)
2001 196 2 147 (Randy Johnson)
2002 193 1 150 (Randy Johnson)
2003 228 2 141 (Kerry Wood)

177 would seem to be way off the charts.

I hear that Steve Carlton threw 304 pitches in one game for the 1980 Phillies. Greg Maddux, as a 22-year-old Cub in 1988, threw 167 pitches in an 11-inning loss to the Cardinals.

As long as it wasn't my kid, I'd just stay out of it. It's none of my business if someboby else's kid throws 177 pitches. If they're ok with it, who am I to say anything about it.

If the player has an issue, he should talk to his coach about it and if he feels his coach isn't listening, then the kid should bring it up to the parent as a last resort.

If you want to take up this cause then do it. Go do some studies and research yourself. Get the facts straight and research the heck out it. Then go on a crusade to save the arms of pitchers. If thats what you want to do go for it.

I have had kids if they threw 35 game pitches were done for the week. Sore and need at least four days rest. I have had kids who could throw in relief on Tuesday and were more than ready to throw in relief on Friday. And they were usually better the second time out. I have had kids who prepared all off season to be ready to toe the hill game one of the hs season. Then I have had kids who sat around and waited for the hs season to start and it was mid season before they were really prepared to throw deep in a game.

So my point is every kid is different. Every situation is different. I have had Sr's who told me "Coach I am not going to pitch in college. This is it for me. If I can go let me go."

Here is something to consider. More kids are hurt from not throwing enough and then trying to throw too much - instead of throwing too much. 120 spread out over 7 innings is not near as dangerous to me as 35 in one inning. If your going to go on a mission to save kids arms then go for it. Good luck. For me if I am going to go on any mission in life I am going to work really hard to help those that dont have enough to eat, dont have enough heat in their home and need a helping hand at life.