Additional info: The loading phase was first recommended when creatine initially hit the commercial market back in the early 90's.
It was a genious marketing effort as the original containers had just 100 grams and the loading phase consisted of four, 5 gram servings for 5 days, then scale down to just 5 grams per day after that. So the original bottle would last just 5 days. This ensured customers would purchase at least two bottles.
Also, since creatine induces intramuscular water retention (and sometimes beyond), some users who do the loading phase get a very large scale weight gain, some as high as 15 pounds in 5-7 days. While this is simply water, it does lead to initial strength increases in the gym as well.
One must remember creatine came out when most of the supplements on the market didn't do anything, so this was a huge breakthrough.
The loading phase has since lost favor, especially in athletes, because your body can only hold so much creatine. After 14-21 days, you will have the same creatine stores, whether you choose to load or not.
The extra weight carried around (and accompanying bloating) is not welcomed by most athletes because they can feel sluggish and lose speed with so much weight coming on so quickly.
In addition, the loading phase can create many trips to the bathroom, whihc obviously isn't pleasant.
Creatine is mainly used in 3-5 gram doses now-a-days with some users going to 10 if they are training ofr aspeciifc purpose where that extra bit will help.
I admit right off the bat that I know next to nothing about Creatine. But really - take a substance that could induce a 15 pound weight gain from water retention in a week?
Even at smaller doses... does this sound like something to be messing around with? I've seen my son's football friends who take it. They look like the Michelin Man.
No thanks. What are the long term effects? Are they well understood from clinical trials? If they have been, I sure haven't seen it.
Others may differ. For me - no way!
Even at smaller doses... does this sound like something to be messing around with? I've seen my son's football friends who take it. They look like the Michelin Man.
No thanks. What are the long term effects? Are they well understood from clinical trials? If they have been, I sure haven't seen it.
Others may differ. For me - no way!
Jon,
Thanks for the details, that was great.
Quick question then... Do most still do the washout phase after 4 weeks, or has that gone by the wayside also?
Rob,
I've always considered most of your repsonses enlightened, informed and well considered. However when you admit ignorance, "I admit right off the bat that I know next to nothing about Creatine" and then form such a strong opinion, "For me - no way!" , it seems highly contradictory.
What would you say to someone that says, "I really don't know anything about politics, but I think Democrats are ruining this country"?
Thanks for the details, that was great.
Quick question then... Do most still do the washout phase after 4 weeks, or has that gone by the wayside also?
Rob,
I've always considered most of your repsonses enlightened, informed and well considered. However when you admit ignorance, "I admit right off the bat that I know next to nothing about Creatine" and then form such a strong opinion, "For me - no way!" , it seems highly contradictory.
What would you say to someone that says, "I really don't know anything about politics, but I think Democrats are ruining this country"?
My concern now and always has been and to me there is not enough evidence. Where does the water go? to the muscles correct? Is your heart not a muscle??? Is the creatine muscle specific??Therefore to me you could possibly putting fluid in and aroind your heart.So 15 pounds in a week or two of fluid , first your kidneys have extra stress with that quicka gain and so could your heart. Thats my stance , and hopefully I have instilled in my son what I believe and he never uses it.
A good weight program and good nutrition and a plain protein supplement will do the trick, it just takes longer.
A good weight program and good nutrition and a plain protein supplement will do the trick, it just takes longer.
I think that John has done a great job at showing people that one has to understand the how, what and why of putting supplements in their body. The problem is that most take supplements as prescibed on the label or by someone in a health food store (who knows not much more about it than to sell it) or a friend who knows nothing. One should get proper advice from a trainer and the trainer then recommends certain supplements one is needed according to how they eat and train and what they want to accomplish.
Some people are so afraid of what their players might injest, yet feed them bacon, saugage, for breakfast everyday, load them up on bad carbs and sugars, too much red mean and not enough fish and whole grains, make sandwiches from processed meats and cheeses, substitute hydrogenated fats for the good fats and stop at the drive in for double cheesebugers on the way home.
Rob, not a big fan of creatine myself for young players but you should educate yourself about it, chances may be when your son goes off to college it might be recommended and approved by the trainers.
Some people are so afraid of what their players might injest, yet feed them bacon, saugage, for breakfast everyday, load them up on bad carbs and sugars, too much red mean and not enough fish and whole grains, make sandwiches from processed meats and cheeses, substitute hydrogenated fats for the good fats and stop at the drive in for double cheesebugers on the way home.
Rob, not a big fan of creatine myself for young players but you should educate yourself about it, chances may be when your son goes off to college it might be recommended and approved by the trainers.
Jon has done a excellent job at providing us info. I wanted him to come on this thread in the beginning when I felt some things were being said that werent necessarily true about products and certain stores.
TPM: so true about the diets.
TPM: so true about the diets.
From the book, Advanced Sports Nutrition by Dan Benardot, PhD, RD, FACSM
The fluid retention in muscle structures allows for more retention of glycogen. Fully hydrating muscles takes days to occur in athletes, therefore its benficial that the athlete maintain a fully hydrated state.
Phosphocreatine (Phoshagen) System
Anaerobic metabolic processes supply ATP from phosphocreatine (PCr) and glycosis without oxygen. There is a limited amount of PCr that the muscles can store. Athletes performing maximal excercise have maximum of 8-10 seconds of PCr available to their muscles, that takes 2-4 minutes of rest to regenerate. PCr is available to muscles as fuel instantly. Creatine Monohydrate supplementation is popular because athletes want to increase the storage of PCr, with the hope in increasing both capacity and power. (paraphrased from pg 236)
Glycolosis (Glycotic System)
Glycolosis refers to the anaerobic breakdown of glucose or glycogen for energy. There is a delay of 5-10 seconds from the initiation of activity before the glycotic system can supply energy to the working tissues. The body converts glucose and glycogen into ATP for use in the muscles as energy. Glucose produces 2 molecules of ATP, while glycogen produces 3. Glycolosis has half the power to create energy as the PCr system, but three times the capacity.
The combination of the PCr and glycolosis system can support predominantely anaerobic maximal work for approximately 90 seconds. (paraphrased pgs. 236-237)
Page 238 "Optimally hydrated muscles are composed of more than 70% water, and it should be the athlete's goal to maintain this optimal hydration state. A failure to do so will lead to a progressive reduction in total body water with a concamitant reduction in athletic performance. Evidence suggests that poor hydration makes an athlete more prone to injury by reducing mental function (poor hydration is associated with higher core temperatures tha can reduce coordination) and by making muscles less resilient (thus increasing the risk of muscle tears and pulls).
Pg 239 "At fixed excercise intensities, the better-conditioned baseball players were able to maintain body temerature with a lower sweat rate than tat of players who were less fit. Another study found that blood flow to the pitching arm increased up to 40 pitches but steadily declined after that. By the 100th pitch, blood flow to the pitching arm was 30% below baseline. The decrease in blood flow to the pitching arm matches a decrease in the general hydration state of the pitchers. Since it is established that blood volume is a key factor in the maintainance of athletic performance, the performance of pitchers may be strongly influenced by their ability to stay hydrated."
I should note here that the author is neither pro or negative creatine supplementation.
page 107 "It is possible, however, that the benefit derived from taking creatine monohydrate may be due to the inadequate energy (caloric) intake commonly seen in athletes. In a recent study on repeated jump height, a 250-calorie supplement of carbohydrate was found to me more effective at sustaining maximal jump height than was a standard creatine monohydrate supplement." It goes on to say the the carb supplement athletes didn't have the significant weight gain associated with the creatine supplemented athletes.
In a table on page 116, part of an extremely enlightening table that lists nearly every PED and supplement under 4 categories, Potential Action, Research Findings, Side Effects, Legality, creatine monohydrate is listed as...
Potential Action - Improves repeated high-intensity activity endurance
Research Findings - Benefit, but no safety date available (note-in another part of the book, studies show no health risks from studies on adults, however there have been no studies on children)
Side Effects - none in short term, unkown in long term
Legality - Legal
This is an excellent book that does a nice job explaining the complete sports nutrition landscape. In addition it covers nutrient timing and sports specific nutritional differences
The fluid retention in muscle structures allows for more retention of glycogen. Fully hydrating muscles takes days to occur in athletes, therefore its benficial that the athlete maintain a fully hydrated state.
Phosphocreatine (Phoshagen) System
Anaerobic metabolic processes supply ATP from phosphocreatine (PCr) and glycosis without oxygen. There is a limited amount of PCr that the muscles can store. Athletes performing maximal excercise have maximum of 8-10 seconds of PCr available to their muscles, that takes 2-4 minutes of rest to regenerate. PCr is available to muscles as fuel instantly. Creatine Monohydrate supplementation is popular because athletes want to increase the storage of PCr, with the hope in increasing both capacity and power. (paraphrased from pg 236)
Glycolosis (Glycotic System)
Glycolosis refers to the anaerobic breakdown of glucose or glycogen for energy. There is a delay of 5-10 seconds from the initiation of activity before the glycotic system can supply energy to the working tissues. The body converts glucose and glycogen into ATP for use in the muscles as energy. Glucose produces 2 molecules of ATP, while glycogen produces 3. Glycolosis has half the power to create energy as the PCr system, but three times the capacity.
The combination of the PCr and glycolosis system can support predominantely anaerobic maximal work for approximately 90 seconds. (paraphrased pgs. 236-237)
Page 238 "Optimally hydrated muscles are composed of more than 70% water, and it should be the athlete's goal to maintain this optimal hydration state. A failure to do so will lead to a progressive reduction in total body water with a concamitant reduction in athletic performance. Evidence suggests that poor hydration makes an athlete more prone to injury by reducing mental function (poor hydration is associated with higher core temperatures tha can reduce coordination) and by making muscles less resilient (thus increasing the risk of muscle tears and pulls).
Pg 239 "At fixed excercise intensities, the better-conditioned baseball players were able to maintain body temerature with a lower sweat rate than tat of players who were less fit. Another study found that blood flow to the pitching arm increased up to 40 pitches but steadily declined after that. By the 100th pitch, blood flow to the pitching arm was 30% below baseline. The decrease in blood flow to the pitching arm matches a decrease in the general hydration state of the pitchers. Since it is established that blood volume is a key factor in the maintainance of athletic performance, the performance of pitchers may be strongly influenced by their ability to stay hydrated."
I should note here that the author is neither pro or negative creatine supplementation.
page 107 "It is possible, however, that the benefit derived from taking creatine monohydrate may be due to the inadequate energy (caloric) intake commonly seen in athletes. In a recent study on repeated jump height, a 250-calorie supplement of carbohydrate was found to me more effective at sustaining maximal jump height than was a standard creatine monohydrate supplement." It goes on to say the the carb supplement athletes didn't have the significant weight gain associated with the creatine supplemented athletes.
In a table on page 116, part of an extremely enlightening table that lists nearly every PED and supplement under 4 categories, Potential Action, Research Findings, Side Effects, Legality, creatine monohydrate is listed as...
Potential Action - Improves repeated high-intensity activity endurance
Research Findings - Benefit, but no safety date available (note-in another part of the book, studies show no health risks from studies on adults, however there have been no studies on children)
Side Effects - none in short term, unkown in long term
Legality - Legal
This is an excellent book that does a nice job explaining the complete sports nutrition landscape. In addition it covers nutrient timing and sports specific nutritional differences
GREAT point by TPM...
Very often the people I hear bashing creatine as the ones who see no problem with "regular food" which consists of hydrogenated fats, corn syrups, genetic modulation, high sodium, coloring, preservatives, etc.
Now, I'm not pointing to anyone on this board, just saying it needs to go both ways.
It's no secret many of the ingredients allowed by FDA in our food suppy are frowned upon or not allowed in other countries. It's about money, bottom line. Everyone just needs to understand that.
15 pounds on creatine is extreme high end, that's why I said "up to". Most gain 4-5 pounds on a 5-7 day loading phase. And again, this is highly dependant upon what your diet looks like and where your baselne creatine levels are.
Rob, can you expand on the Michelin Man comment? Do you know what their nutrition and traing looks like as well?
Not coming down on you at all, and if fact I think very highly of you and your posts, just trying to get a better understanding.
Creatine is pretty well understood from clinical trials. Besides Gatorade, it's the most studied performance supplement. Besides individuals that have pre-existing kidney probelms, creatine has been shown to be quite safe and effective.
This info is readily available as well.
It's also been studied for over a decade now, which, if you ask anyone in the medical field, is plenty of time to determine long-term effects. More than enough actually.
But mainstream media, who has absolutely no idea about ANYTHING health related has slammed it in most cases.
If anyone gets their health, nutrition and supplementation advice from mainstream media, they are selling themselves short.
CPLZ, a washout phase is no longer used in the manner that was described above. Rather, it's simply used when an athlete needs the extra training support and it's been determined there's no need to taper down. Different athletes stay on creatine for different lengths of time, depending upon their goals, training, schedule, etc.
I'll say it again, I think before someone has an opinion creatine(or anything for that matter), they should do the necessary due-diligence that it should take to have an opinion.
From there, that individual should made an educated decision based upon their situation.
Very often the people I hear bashing creatine as the ones who see no problem with "regular food" which consists of hydrogenated fats, corn syrups, genetic modulation, high sodium, coloring, preservatives, etc.
Now, I'm not pointing to anyone on this board, just saying it needs to go both ways.
It's no secret many of the ingredients allowed by FDA in our food suppy are frowned upon or not allowed in other countries. It's about money, bottom line. Everyone just needs to understand that.
15 pounds on creatine is extreme high end, that's why I said "up to". Most gain 4-5 pounds on a 5-7 day loading phase. And again, this is highly dependant upon what your diet looks like and where your baselne creatine levels are.
Rob, can you expand on the Michelin Man comment? Do you know what their nutrition and traing looks like as well?
Not coming down on you at all, and if fact I think very highly of you and your posts, just trying to get a better understanding.
Creatine is pretty well understood from clinical trials. Besides Gatorade, it's the most studied performance supplement. Besides individuals that have pre-existing kidney probelms, creatine has been shown to be quite safe and effective.
This info is readily available as well.
It's also been studied for over a decade now, which, if you ask anyone in the medical field, is plenty of time to determine long-term effects. More than enough actually.
But mainstream media, who has absolutely no idea about ANYTHING health related has slammed it in most cases.
If anyone gets their health, nutrition and supplementation advice from mainstream media, they are selling themselves short.
CPLZ, a washout phase is no longer used in the manner that was described above. Rather, it's simply used when an athlete needs the extra training support and it's been determined there's no need to taper down. Different athletes stay on creatine for different lengths of time, depending upon their goals, training, schedule, etc.
I'll say it again, I think before someone has an opinion creatine(or anything for that matter), they should do the necessary due-diligence that it should take to have an opinion.
From there, that individual should made an educated decision based upon their situation.
Looking like the Michelin Man is a perfect example of the need for a trainer for recommendations. JMO. John is correct, you also have to know what his training is like and what he eats as well.
Most people that take it that I know, look nothing like that at all.
Most people that take it that I know, look nothing like that at all.
Thanks for clarifying the weight gain Jon. That seemed high.
Thanks for the info CPLZ.
Its just the Registered nurse in me that like to look at all aspects of the body. I repsect your expertise Jon, you are always very informative.
I do try very hard to research everything I take and my family. I take a lot of supplements because of my health situation, I am not a nutriton expert.I respect anyones decisions for their own families. Each person needs to decide for themselves what is best for their kids. Thanks for all the info.
Thanks for the info CPLZ.
Its just the Registered nurse in me that like to look at all aspects of the body. I repsect your expertise Jon, you are always very informative.
I do try very hard to research everything I take and my family. I take a lot of supplements because of my health situation, I am not a nutriton expert.I respect anyones decisions for their own families. Each person needs to decide for themselves what is best for their kids. Thanks for all the info.
CPLZ:
I don't think it's contradiction per se, but I will admit readily that my attitude is closeminded.
For me, it's kind of one of those things I don't have to think about. Should my son take a supplement that is controversial and has unknown long term effects?
I suppose I should make myself more informed for my opnion, but to be honest, I don't think the view of "for me, no way!" is out of line even if uttered in ignorance.
There are lots of things I will not do, even though I am completely ignorant about their effects.
I don't think it's contradiction per se, but I will admit readily that my attitude is closeminded.
For me, it's kind of one of those things I don't have to think about. Should my son take a supplement that is controversial and has unknown long term effects?
I suppose I should make myself more informed for my opnion, but to be honest, I don't think the view of "for me, no way!" is out of line even if uttered in ignorance.
There are lots of things I will not do, even though I am completely ignorant about their effects.