High school summer ball hurt development?

If your son is going to be a sophomore in high school, wouldn't you want him to be in front of the high school coaches as much as possible? That way he will get a more thorough evaluation regarding his ability to contribute at the varsity level. What is he trying to develop to be? I would assume a high school varsity starter. Or has high school baseball just become a speed bump in every player's paths to the pros.

I'm assuming that had he been offered the chance for his HS team that they would've accepted it but since it wasn't offered, they looked elsewhere. If I was in that position and my son wanted to play this Summer and it was not offered by the HS that I would've done the same thing.

If you're that age as an underclassmen, he would probably be better off using the Summer to advance the knowledge of the game moreso than anything, IMO. I haven't played fresh. BB in almost 20 years, but there are things he's going to need to know as a Soph. that he might not know, whether it be defensive positioning, footwork, reading the pitcher when standing on 1B, increased signs, etc. It should be considered a bonus if a kid ends with up a new coach over the Summer that helps a player improve a skill.

Most importantly though, it is more about the coaches and what they are trying to find out what they have for next Spring.

Obviously though, they are likely to improve more practicing than away from the diamond. I'd rather seem them doing more advanced drills than the same drills they've done from March till June.

Does HS summer baseball hurt developement? The answer is yes.

Explain to me how baseball players can get better and improve without practice? I grew up in a day and age where we practiced 2 days a week and played 3 days a week in the summer. On weekends, I took ground balls and practiced with the semi-pro team in the area. I have a son in high school in the West suburbs and I am can not believe how bad the HS summer ball is in this area. When is someone going to stand up and say enough is enough. Talk to coaches and parents from Ohio, no high school summer ball, just weekend travel tournaments. Talk to coaches from the North suburbs, everyone is going to the legion model and improving the quality of play and development. The only way for players to get better is by playing against better competition, seeing better pitching and to practice the game, something that I would suggest is NOT happening very often in the West Suburbs.

Unfortunately, around here, when the weather gets decent our kids actually play LESS. The high school football/basketball coaches all want the kids to come to their summer camps, making less time and energy available for the baseball player to work on his skills. However, I told a parent that if it was my kid and if his kid wanted to pursue baseball, I'd give up football and start concentrating on baseball specific workouts in the summer. However, apparently that was not an option....

My advise, if you think your kid needs more practice- set something up on your own. We did. I am not sure these high school coaches even get paid in the summer.

So are we going to beat this dead horse again? There is a place for HS ball and Travel baseball as well. The majority of travel teams do not practice during the summer any more than the high school teams do. Most HS teams use the hour or so before the games to teach and work on things. If I didnt think my kids benefited greatly by playing HS summer ball I wouldnt have wasted my time coaching it which I have done the past 24 summers. It's hard work and a tremendous time commitment with little to no pay. Honestly, we have been weak at the lower levels and in my opinion have gained alot of ground on other programs through our summer program.
Our kids beat teams at the Varsity level that 10 run ruled them as freshman and sophomores. As for the western suburbs I think if you look closely at teams making it downstate and winning state championships the western suburb teams are in the thick of it every year. Lastly keep in mind that we are dealing with kids that also play football, basketball, and s****r in the summer. They constantly prioritize where they are going to go each night. Games have a higher priority than practices in the summer. I wonder how well these practices would be attended. By using the hour or so before games to practice we get our practice in without the title of just a practice session. Psychology 101. There are positive and negatives to HS and Travel ball. I'm not going to rip travel ball. We've shared kids successfully on a yearly basis. But when judging high school ball speak for your own program. Don't generalize all programs.

I just yelled upstairs to my high school son and asked him what he would rather do in the summer? play or practice baseball. He responded with play games.

The real problem with summer travel ball is the pitchers. You can only pitch so many innings. So where do you pitch your innings? If you need to show your high school coach that your a pitcher to be considered for next spring, you'd better be pitching some quality innings for your high school team. If you already have established yourself as a pitcher the previous spring, the travel teams see much tougher line ups than what you'll see in summer high school ball (until the tourney). The problem is it is easy to let your kid pitch too many innings on the weekend and ruin his arm.

Just to note my son faced some very tough high school varsity teams this spring and did very well as a sophmore pitcher. But the team that hit him the hardest all year was a sixteen year old travel ball team this summer. They did better against him than the number two varsity team in the state did last May. Go figure.

[quote]Just to note my son faced some very tough high school varsity teams this spring and did very well as a sophmore pitcher. But the team that hit him the hardest all year was a sixteen year old travel ball team this summer. They did better against him than the number two varsity team in the state did last May. Go figure.[quote]

The great thing about baseball is you can't establish a reason for why things like this happen. I too have had talented sophomore pitchers who have shut down great line ups in the past and never once thought it was because the competition was less. However, perhaps (just a guess here) your son was not on his game against the 16u travel team. Maybe he tipped his pitches. Fell into a rhythm of predictability. Fell behind in the count. Pitched above the belt. Caught too much of the plate in 2 strike situations. Allowed the lead off hitter to reach base in multiple innings. Didn't pitch to his defense. The defense failed to adjust to his pitching. Brought only one pitch to the park. Didn't establish the inner third of the plate.

While I am sure your son is very talented, I too am sure his success is not the criteria in determining the quality of Illinois HS baseball. Go Figure.

Our Sophs participate in a 27 team JV league. Most teams are made up of players who just finished playing their Frosh year. This year most teams average around 11 or 12 games, with some such as Lockport playing 17 regular season summer games.

I believe that more important than the level of competition game in and game out, is the philosophy and coaching that occurs. One of things that is done each game is the coaches take the time to COACH. It is not just a group of kids playing, but players are held up to certain expectations. I know for a fact that a good coach spending 17 to 20 days with your son over the course of a summer can do nothing but benefit him as a ballplayer!

On top of the regular season this summer, the JV league has a 27 team, 5 day, single elimination tournament. This tournament gives each team a chance to work for something in the end. It also helps the boys realize the importance of every little thing that effects the outcome of the game. One error, one bad baserunning gaff, a missed sign... can cost you your season. These are lessons that I believe are sometimes missed in a travel setting unless each player is playing at a HIGH LEVEL OF COMPETITION.... which I believe a lot of players do not.

My son plays on the HS varsity summer team (he was asked though he will only be a Sophomore next year.) The HS team plays DH's twice a week, he usually pitches in one game in one DH and plays in the field in one game of the next DH. More than likely he will be on the sophomore team next year but he enjoys playing up with the team.

He also plays on a 15U travel team, which plays weekend tournaments. Though he claims some of the best pitching he has faced has been in the weekend tournaments.

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Originally posted by Playball2:
[quote]Just to note my son faced some very tough high school varsity teams this spring and did very well as a sophmore pitcher. But the team that hit him the hardest all year was a sixteen year old travel ball team this summer. They did better against him than the number two varsity team in the state did last May. Go figure.[quote]

The great thing about baseball is you can't establish a reason for why things like this happen. I too have had talented sophomore pitchers who have shut down great line ups in the past and never once thought it was because the competition was less. However, perhaps (just a guess here) your son was not on his game against the 16u travel team. Maybe he tipped his pitches. Fell into a rhythm of predictability. Fell behind in the count. Pitched above the belt. Caught too much of the plate in 2 strike situations. Allowed the lead off hitter to reach base in multiple innings. Didn't pitch to his defense. The defense failed to adjust to his pitching. Brought only one pitch to the park. Didn't establish the inner third of the plate.

While I am sure your son is very talented, I too am sure his success is not the criteria in determining the quality of Illinois HS baseball. Go Figure.

I wasn't making any comments on the quality of play in the spring in Illinois, it is very good. However in the regular season, summer high school baseball is not very good based on what I have seen. The coaches do not play to win, they are looking at players. They often times don't even use their best pitchers because they already know what they can do, they use their second line pitchers to get a look at someone new.

However all that goes out the window during the end of the season tournament that starts Monday, July 20th. Now everyone is playing to win and the best pitchers are pitching.

Until then, the best ball is the summer is definetely played on the weekends IMHO. But we don't travel to the Northwest burbs, so things may be different up there.

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Originally posted by DTA:
Talk to coaches and parents from Ohio, no high school summer ball, just weekend travel tournaments. Talk to coaches from the North suburbs, everyone is going to the legion model and improving the quality of play and development.

Babe Ruth and Legion Ball are big in Ohio.

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Just to note my son faced some very tough high school varsity teams this spring and did very well as a sophmore pitcher. But the team that hit him the hardest all year was a sixteen year old travel ball team this summer. They did better against him than the number two varsity team in the state did last May. Go figure.

I am a little confused, isn't this a comment about the quality of the spring teams.

No my comment was more to say how good some of the summer travel teams are.

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No my comment was more to say how good some of the summer travel teams are.

Well they should since they can grab basically whoever they want.

Didn't mean to rip high school baseball as a whole--Mainly the summer version--with my boys 15U summer team not able to get much practices as a team because of scheduling around High school summer ball which doesn't practice either according to all the other dads.
Playing games is great and fun but I believe it takes many hours in practice to be good in games. I would much rather watch a game than practice for 2 hrs but I beleive 2-3 team practices a week would benefit them more.
My sons summer team coach is great and gives him lots of one on one which is great--really great. But getting the whole team for infield work and such is difficult--almost impossible. I do what I can but nothing beats orginized team practices. JMHO

Games expose weaknessess, typically coaches take notes so they can communicate to the individuals the skills that need deveelopment for the off-season.

That gets back to my point exactly, why play games 4 days a week and NEVER practice? Why not play 3 days a week and practice on those 'weaknessess" on the practice day instead of waiting for the "offseason"? This is not a debate about travel vs high school ball, it is a simple statement by me that summer ball does nothing to develop baseball players in my opinion. Now, there might be the exception to my opinion out there, but if you go survey 100 parents/players on what they are getting out of summer ball, I know what the results will be. And yes, the level of play at travel ball is light years above high school ball, but it should be, because for the most part it is the best players playing travel baseball.

DTA-

I am with you but I might point out that both my boys never practiced with their travel teams in the summer either. They were pitchers however.

To me, the biggest advantage of the travel teams is "fall baseball." Their travel team held winter workouts too, which was a real plus. Maybe some of the hitters practiced in the summer but for pitching work in the summer it was pretty much on our own - Dad or a lesson with someone.

"Give me fall baseball or give me death!"

To me it seems that at least many people agree that high school summer ball is very weak and some H.S. Coaches (not all) put way to much pressure on kids to choose between their H.S. and travel teams.

I am speaking from experience since this happened to my son this summer; his H.S. coach told him that he only pitches for him (H.S.) or turn in his uniform. Still have the uniform but son has not played for his H.S. team all summer. Sent an email to coach, AD and principal, still no response, maybe next phone call should be to the IHSA!

For those of you who will jump all over me. Son was a starting pitcher on varsity as a sophomore last spring; coach knows what he can do. We will see what happens next spring!

On the same topic, I thought I saw a coach from one of the top H.S. programs in our area coaching a 15U team this past weekend in Lynwood, he did not seem to have any trouble with travel ball.

There is also a story on yourseason.com about the St. Rita vs. Brother Rice summer league game this week and how all the top players from both teams did not play, I guess they just might be at East Cobb this week trying to get some exposure, Oh I forgot they must be only thinking of themselves as far as some (not all) H. S. coaches are concerned or have commented on this site.

Good luck to all in the playoffs when all the kids are playing!

JMO

My thought would be, as a coach, that a player should play against the best competition possible to improve for the HS season. Also, another coach may make something make sense to the player in question because he could word it differently or something of that nature that I couldn't get to click for the player. I suppose, however, that would require a coach who isn't arrogant, and it seems those coaches are in short supply. There are few good reasons for an able player to play HS summer ball over a "select" or travel team.

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My thought would be, as a coach, that a player should play against the best competition possible to improve for the HS season.

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There are few good reasons for an able player to play HS summer ball over a "select" or travel team.

That's only IF the competition in the travel league IS the best competition to be playing. That isn't always the case...

Can you make any recommendations for a competitive fall ball team for an 8th grader in the Chicagoland area? I think I've talked my son out of football but fall ball has been too recreational after summer travel ball and he wants to start getting ready for high school. Not sure where he's going.

I recommend you let him play football if he wants to. Between Winter Workouts, HS Spring Baseball and Summer Ball he should get enough baseball work in. And like you said, fall ball even for most HS Players is largely recreational and is not played on some high level.

That is of course unless you are sure he is a can't miss baseball player and has no desire to do anything else.

Seriously, you might want to consider the burnout factor.

S****r or cross country. Football is an injury waiting to happen. It is not "if" it is when what and how serious.

If he has a better chance of succeeding in football, then go for it. But, if his future is in baseball, he will hurt an arm shoulder or knee playing football.

Save all the stuff about the great two sport athletes. I know. There are many great baseball players that played football and vice versa. Also, a lot of good quarterbacks are catchers or pitchers. But, it is dangerous, and that is a fact. How many have played the game right and not gotten injured?

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S****r or cross country. Football is an injury waiting to happen. It is not "if" it is when what and how serious.

If he has a better chance of succeeding in football, then go for it. But, if his future is in baseball, he will hurt an arm shoulder or knee playing football.

I always love when people bring this kind of stuff up. Sure football has the highest incidence of injury; it has the highest numbers of participation too!!

And if you really think s****r or cross country are not "injuries waiting to happen" you are mistaken. Stress fractures, sprains, muscle imbalances, etc. In s****r, much of the same injuries as football: concussions, broken bones, dislocations; it's all possible.


If a kid wants to play football, let him play football. The memories developed playing high school football are just unbelievable. A kid is only in high school once.

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Reply You can get injured paying any sport. The most dangerous HS sport is cheerleading followed by gymnastics.

I wonder how many people have sat next to you at the bar while you told your "war" stories about HS football and them told them how you can forcast the weather with your bum knee.



Main Web Site High School Baseball Web High School Baseball Web Illinois Forum High school summer ball hurt development?

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Originally posted by bballdad1954:
S****r or cross country. Football is an injury waiting to happen. It is not "if" it is when what and how serious.

If he has a better chance of succeeding in football, then go for it. But, if his future is in baseball, he will hurt an arm shoulder or knee playing football.

What a terrible way to go through life, scared of participating because of a potential for sports injury.

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Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
If a kid wants to play football, let him play football. The memories developed playing high school football are just unbelievable. A kid is only in high school once.

YEAH BABY...ROCK THEIR WORLD! Nothing like it.

Mental toughness is not dis associative from physical toughness. Contrary to popular belief (from those who never experienced it), it's not about what you can dish out, it's about learning about how much you can take...came up smiling ear to ear from some great shots...given & gotten.

At West Point, boxing is a requirement for all cadets. Real boxing...black eyes, blood, broken bones. Do you want to know the real reason why? It's so that Cadets can understand they can get punched in the face and not die.

There is nothing, like taking a huge shot...laid out...totally steam rolled...and getting up to do it again.

Those that cower and shy away from such aggression in sport, never fully learn what they are capable of...IMHO.

The females do this too?

If I was her Dad, I do not think I would like that.

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Originally posted by nc42dad:
The females do this too?

If I was her Dad, I do not think I would like that.

Yup, every Cadet. Of course females are paired off with other females.

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That gets back to my point exactly, why play games 4 days a week and NEVER practice? Why not play 3 days a week and practice on those 'weaknessess" on the practice day instead of waiting for the "offseason"?

DTA,if there is one thing that I am confident of it is that travel fails at the same level to practice as many times as you suggest HS baseball to practice (infact this baseball utopia you speak of doesn't exist). While it true about all sports, you get better at the game by playing. There is great difficulty in simulating all that baseball can encompass.

Secondly,You state that this is not a debate about HS ball, but you finish your statement by stating that travel ball is light years ahead of HS baseball. I have spent many a year watching and evaluating the efforts of those light years ahead and have found it to be significantly inconclusive as it applies to the development of my players (and I have had many). There is a major distinction between Travel and HS summer programs, I said it before and I will say it again. Summer baseball is about identifying strengths and weaknessess within the team/individual. Travel ball is about exposure, instuction/instructors is of great quality and poor quality, no different then any level of baseball. But there is a freedom I have in HS that leads to a multitude of teachable moments and develops skill with out the consequence of not being deemed a prospect.

As an example: we will hit and run on 1-1 counts with one out and a man on first. No matter the score/inning/pitcher/catcher. Or we will sacrafice bunt innings 5/6/7 again, no matter the score/innings/out.

So before you pass judgement think, which really enhances player development.

If I may add my two cents...while summer practicing sounds good in theory, reality says otherwise. After an entire off-(and pre-)season of individual and team workouts, coupled with a pretty intensive spring high school schedule, the last thing that these players care to do is sit out on a practice field during the summer. Right or wrong, like it or not, their minds are just not into it which, more times than not, results in a rather meaningless practice session.

Instead, and seeing that our baseball season is as short as it is, I would much rather my son see as much pitching and game situations as possible during the summer months and allow for those "teaching moments" as Playball2 alluded to. At the same time, the more serious players will still find time to put in whatever individual training is necessary along the way. As far as I'm concerned, play as many games as you can during the summer and spend the winter months honing the mechanics...JMO.

And, by the way, my opinion pertains to travel, high school, and legion baseball equally across the board.

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Sent an email to coach, AD and principal, still no response, maybe next phone call should be to the IHSA!

CSG, Email? Phone call? Huh? put down your blackberry and How about a face to face? Issues seemed to be resolved much faster when men talk to each other in an orderly fashion. This way you may find out that your son has missed out on an opportunity he failed to capitilize on. Like a secondary position or for that matter a second or third pitch or location (inside fastball) to work on in a competitive situation without the worry of consequence. Like most you chose the exposure over the development. Every pitch a max effort pitch so that barrels can be missed. Lastly, you failed to mention the relationship of that coach and the 15U team. Pretty certain somebody on that team is calling DAD.

Can I put in my two cents on playing football in the fall? My son has played two years of high school football at this point. It kept him working out and getting stronger during the baseball off season. From November to March 1st, he was in a modified football weight lifting program. I told the coaches to realize that he was a baseball pitcher first, so work on the legs on trunk, but not the upper body as much.

To make a long story short, he went from a pretty good freshman pitcher to a very very good varsity pitcher in one year. As a sophmore he started 9 varsity games, won 6 of them and had an ERA around 2.50. Started two state playoff games and pitched deep into both games, and his team won both games. The baseball coaches were nothing but supportive of him playing football.

Bottom line to me is that there is no way he would be as good a pitcher as he is now if he wasn't playing football. He will definetly play football this fall and pitch one game a week for a travel team just to keep in the game. Yes he could get hurt playing football but in my mind that is a risk worth taking. Besides he has a great time on the football team, and there is no way I'm going to take that experience away from him.

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Originally posted by bballdad1954:
Save all the stuff about the great two sport athletes. I know. There are many great baseball players that played football and vice versa. Also, a lot of good quarterbacks are catchers or pitchers. But, it is dangerous, and that is a fact. How many have played the game right and not gotten injured?

Interesting. Football was Jackie Robinson's first sport. Back to my son. Thanks for all your comments He was out much of last year with injuries so we are trying to be careful. His chances of playing high school football are slim but his chances of playing high school baseball are good. He's the kind of kid who puts 200% into it and it makes him take unnecessary risks and increase the chance of injury. He's also become smaller than average this year. I got some pressure for him to play football from the coaches saying that he can play basketball and baseball for years to come but this is his only shot at football and that he is a gritty gutty player and that is what football is about.

I don't know--I hope I'm not being overly protective--but the injuries were really depressing.

Junior (10 starts as a junior this past spring) pitches the final two innings of a meaningless HS summer game last week. Coach wanted him to get some work in. Throws one pitch, strains a muscle in the rotator cuff and now he is shelved for the rest of the summer. Ouch.

So, my experience would lead me to say yes, HS summer ball hurt his development.

Also, Junior played s****r his freshman and sophomore year, but did not fall of junior year. Even though he worked out, his conditioning was not at the same level as it had been playing s****r.

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Throws one pitch, strains a muscle in the rotator cuff and now he is shelved for the rest of the summer. Ouch.

So, my experience would lead me to say yes, HS summer ball hurt his development.

Wow. He could have easily done that anywhere else. I don't see how you can blame HS summer ball.

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So, my experience would lead me to say yes, HS summer ball hurt his development.

your not serious, are you?