High school summer ball hurt development?

If your son is going to be a sophomore in high school, wouldn't you want him to be in front of the high school coaches as much as possible? That way he will get a more thorough evaluation regarding his ability to contribute at the varsity level. What is he trying to develop to be? I would assume a high school varsity starter. Or has high school baseball just become a speed bump in every player's paths to the pros.

I'm assuming that had he been offered the chance for his HS team that they would've accepted it but since it wasn't offered, they looked elsewhere. If I was in that position and my son wanted to play this Summer and it was not offered by the HS that I would've done the same thing.

If you're that age as an underclassmen, he would probably be better off using the Summer to advance the knowledge of the game moreso than anything, IMO. I haven't played fresh. BB in almost 20 years, but there are things he's going to need to know as a Soph. that he might not know, whether it be defensive positioning, footwork, reading the pitcher when standing on 1B, increased signs, etc. It should be considered a bonus if a kid ends with up a new coach over the Summer that helps a player improve a skill.

Most importantly though, it is more about the coaches and what they are trying to find out what they have for next Spring.

Obviously though, they are likely to improve more practicing than away from the diamond. I'd rather seem them doing more advanced drills than the same drills they've done from March till June.

Does HS summer baseball hurt developement? The answer is yes.

Explain to me how baseball players can get better and improve without practice? I grew up in a day and age where we practiced 2 days a week and played 3 days a week in the summer. On weekends, I took ground balls and practiced with the semi-pro team in the area. I have a son in high school in the West suburbs and I am can not believe how bad the HS summer ball is in this area. When is someone going to stand up and say enough is enough. Talk to coaches and parents from Ohio, no high school summer ball, just weekend travel tournaments. Talk to coaches from the North suburbs, everyone is going to the legion model and improving the quality of play and development. The only way for players to get better is by playing against better competition, seeing better pitching and to practice the game, something that I would suggest is NOT happening very often in the West Suburbs.

Unfortunately, around here, when the weather gets decent our kids actually play LESS. The high school football/basketball coaches all want the kids to come to their summer camps, making less time and energy available for the baseball player to work on his skills. However, I told a parent that if it was my kid and if his kid wanted to pursue baseball, I'd give up football and start concentrating on baseball specific workouts in the summer. However, apparently that was not an option....

My advise, if you think your kid needs more practice- set something up on your own. We did. I am not sure these high school coaches even get paid in the summer.

So are we going to beat this dead horse again? There is a place for HS ball and Travel baseball as well. The majority of travel teams do not practice during the summer any more than the high school teams do. Most HS teams use the hour or so before the games to teach and work on things. If I didnt think my kids benefited greatly by playing HS summer ball I wouldnt have wasted my time coaching it which I have done the past 24 summers. It's hard work and a tremendous time commitment with little to no pay. Honestly, we have been weak at the lower levels and in my opinion have gained alot of ground on other programs through our summer program.
Our kids beat teams at the Varsity level that 10 run ruled them as freshman and sophomores. As for the western suburbs I think if you look closely at teams making it downstate and winning state championships the western suburb teams are in the thick of it every year. Lastly keep in mind that we are dealing with kids that also play football, basketball, and s****r in the summer. They constantly prioritize where they are going to go each night. Games have a higher priority than practices in the summer. I wonder how well these practices would be attended. By using the hour or so before games to practice we get our practice in without the title of just a practice session. Psychology 101. There are positive and negatives to HS and Travel ball. I'm not going to rip travel ball. We've shared kids successfully on a yearly basis. But when judging high school ball speak for your own program. Don't generalize all programs.

I just yelled upstairs to my high school son and asked him what he would rather do in the summer? play or practice baseball. He responded with play games.

The real problem with summer travel ball is the pitchers. You can only pitch so many innings. So where do you pitch your innings? If you need to show your high school coach that your a pitcher to be considered for next spring, you'd better be pitching some quality innings for your high school team. If you already have established yourself as a pitcher the previous spring, the travel teams see much tougher line ups than what you'll see in summer high school ball (until the tourney). The problem is it is easy to let your kid pitch too many innings on the weekend and ruin his arm.

Just to note my son faced some very tough high school varsity teams this spring and did very well as a sophmore pitcher. But the team that hit him the hardest all year was a sixteen year old travel ball team this summer. They did better against him than the number two varsity team in the state did last May. Go figure.

[quote]Just to note my son faced some very tough high school varsity teams this spring and did very well as a sophmore pitcher. But the team that hit him the hardest all year was a sixteen year old travel ball team this summer. They did better against him than the number two varsity team in the state did last May. Go figure.[quote]

The great thing about baseball is you can't establish a reason for why things like this happen. I too have had talented sophomore pitchers who have shut down great line ups in the past and never once thought it was because the competition was less. However, perhaps (just a guess here) your son was not on his game against the 16u travel team. Maybe he tipped his pitches. Fell into a rhythm of predictability. Fell behind in the count. Pitched above the belt. Caught too much of the plate in 2 strike situations. Allowed the lead off hitter to reach base in multiple innings. Didn't pitch to his defense. The defense failed to adjust to his pitching. Brought only one pitch to the park. Didn't establish the inner third of the plate.

While I am sure your son is very talented, I too am sure his success is not the criteria in determining the quality of Illinois HS baseball. Go Figure.

Our Sophs participate in a 27 team JV league. Most teams are made up of players who just finished playing their Frosh year. This year most teams average around 11 or 12 games, with some such as Lockport playing 17 regular season summer games.

I believe that more important than the level of competition game in and game out, is the philosophy and coaching that occurs. One of things that is done each game is the coaches take the time to COACH. It is not just a group of kids playing, but players are held up to certain expectations. I know for a fact that a good coach spending 17 to 20 days with your son over the course of a summer can do nothing but benefit him as a ballplayer!

On top of the regular season this summer, the JV league has a 27 team, 5 day, single elimination tournament. This tournament gives each team a chance to work for something in the end. It also helps the boys realize the importance of every little thing that effects the outcome of the game. One error, one bad baserunning gaff, a missed sign... can cost you your season. These are lessons that I believe are sometimes missed in a travel setting unless each player is playing at a HIGH LEVEL OF COMPETITION.... which I believe a lot of players do not.

My son plays on the HS varsity summer team (he was asked though he will only be a Sophomore next year.) The HS team plays DH's twice a week, he usually pitches in one game in one DH and plays in the field in one game of the next DH. More than likely he will be on the sophomore team next year but he enjoys playing up with the team.

He also plays on a 15U travel team, which plays weekend tournaments. Though he claims some of the best pitching he has faced has been in the weekend tournaments.

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Originally posted by Playball2:
[quote]Just to note my son faced some very tough high school varsity teams this spring and did very well as a sophmore pitcher. But the team that hit him the hardest all year was a sixteen year old travel ball team this summer. They did better against him than the number two varsity team in the state did last May. Go figure.[quote]

The great thing about baseball is you can't establish a reason for why things like this happen. I too have had talented sophomore pitchers who have shut down great line ups in the past and never once thought it was because the competition was less. However, perhaps (just a guess here) your son was not on his game against the 16u travel team. Maybe he tipped his pitches. Fell into a rhythm of predictability. Fell behind in the count. Pitched above the belt. Caught too much of the plate in 2 strike situations. Allowed the lead off hitter to reach base in multiple innings. Didn't pitch to his defense. The defense failed to adjust to his pitching. Brought only one pitch to the park. Didn't establish the inner third of the plate.

While I am sure your son is very talented, I too am sure his success is not the criteria in determining the quality of Illinois HS baseball. Go Figure.

I wasn't making any comments on the quality of play in the spring in Illinois, it is very good. However in the regular season, summer high school baseball is not very good based on what I have seen. The coaches do not play to win, they are looking at players. They often times don't even use their best pitchers because they already know what they can do, they use their second line pitchers to get a look at someone new.

However all that goes out the window during the end of the season tournament that starts Monday, July 20th. Now everyone is playing to win and the best pitchers are pitching.

Until then, the best ball is the summer is definetely played on the weekends IMHO. But we don't travel to the Northwest burbs, so things may be different up there.

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Originally posted by DTA:
Talk to coaches and parents from Ohio, no high school summer ball, just weekend travel tournaments. Talk to coaches from the North suburbs, everyone is going to the legion model and improving the quality of play and development.

Babe Ruth and Legion Ball are big in Ohio.

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Just to note my son faced some very tough high school varsity teams this spring and did very well as a sophmore pitcher. But the team that hit him the hardest all year was a sixteen year old travel ball team this summer. They did better against him than the number two varsity team in the state did last May. Go figure.

I am a little confused, isn't this a comment about the quality of the spring teams.

No my comment was more to say how good some of the summer travel teams are.

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No my comment was more to say how good some of the summer travel teams are.

Well they should since they can grab basically whoever they want.

Didn't mean to rip high school baseball as a whole--Mainly the summer version--with my boys 15U summer team not able to get much practices as a team because of scheduling around High school summer ball which doesn't practice either according to all the other dads.
Playing games is great and fun but I believe it takes many hours in practice to be good in games. I would much rather watch a game than practice for 2 hrs but I beleive 2-3 team practices a week would benefit them more.
My sons summer team coach is great and gives him lots of one on one which is great--really great. But getting the whole team for infield work and such is difficult--almost impossible. I do what I can but nothing beats orginized team practices. JMHO

Games expose weaknessess, typically coaches take notes so they can communicate to the individuals the skills that need deveelopment for the off-season.

That gets back to my point exactly, why play games 4 days a week and NEVER practice? Why not play 3 days a week and practice on those 'weaknessess" on the practice day instead of waiting for the "offseason"? This is not a debate about travel vs high school ball, it is a simple statement by me that summer ball does nothing to develop baseball players in my opinion. Now, there might be the exception to my opinion out there, but if you go survey 100 parents/players on what they are getting out of summer ball, I know what the results will be. And yes, the level of play at travel ball is light years above high school ball, but it should be, because for the most part it is the best players playing travel baseball.

DTA-

I am with you but I might point out that both my boys never practiced with their travel teams in the summer either. They were pitchers however.

To me, the biggest advantage of the travel teams is "fall baseball." Their travel team held winter workouts too, which was a real plus. Maybe some of the hitters practiced in the summer but for pitching work in the summer it was pretty much on our own - Dad or a lesson with someone.

"Give me fall baseball or give me death!"

To me it seems that at least many people agree that high school summer ball is very weak and some H.S. Coaches (not all) put way to much pressure on kids to choose between their H.S. and travel teams.

I am speaking from experience since this happened to my son this summer; his H.S. coach told him that he only pitches for him (H.S.) or turn in his uniform. Still have the uniform but son has not played for his H.S. team all summer. Sent an email to coach, AD and principal, still no response, maybe next phone call should be to the IHSA!

For those of you who will jump all over me. Son was a starting pitcher on varsity as a sophomore last spring; coach knows what he can do. We will see what happens next spring!

On the same topic, I thought I saw a coach from one of the top H.S. programs in our area coaching a 15U team this past weekend in Lynwood, he did not seem to have any trouble with travel ball.

There is also a story on yourseason.com about the St. Rita vs. Brother Rice summer league game this week and how all the top players from both teams did not play, I guess they just might be at East Cobb this week trying to get some exposure, Oh I forgot they must be only thinking of themselves as far as some (not all) H. S. coaches are concerned or have commented on this site.

Good luck to all in the playoffs when all the kids are playing!

JMO

My thought would be, as a coach, that a player should play against the best competition possible to improve for the HS season. Also, another coach may make something make sense to the player in question because he could word it differently or something of that nature that I couldn't get to click for the player. I suppose, however, that would require a coach who isn't arrogant, and it seems those coaches are in short supply. There are few good reasons for an able player to play HS summer ball over a "select" or travel team.

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My thought would be, as a coach, that a player should play against the best competition possible to improve for the HS season.

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There are few good reasons for an able player to play HS summer ball over a "select" or travel team.

That's only IF the competition in the travel league IS the best competition to be playing. That isn't always the case...

Can you make any recommendations for a competitive fall ball team for an 8th grader in the Chicagoland area? I think I've talked my son out of football but fall ball has been too recreational after summer travel ball and he wants to start getting ready for high school. Not sure where he's going.

I recommend you let him play football if he wants to. Between Winter Workouts, HS Spring Baseball and Summer Ball he should get enough baseball work in. And like you said, fall ball even for most HS Players is largely recreational and is not played on some high level.

That is of course unless you are sure he is a can't miss baseball player and has no desire to do anything else.

Seriously, you might want to consider the burnout factor.

S****r or cross country. Football is an injury waiting to happen. It is not "if" it is when what and how serious.

If he has a better chance of succeeding in football, then go for it. But, if his future is in baseball, he will hurt an arm shoulder or knee playing football.

Save all the stuff about the great two sport athletes. I know. There are many great baseball players that played football and vice versa. Also, a lot of good quarterbacks are catchers or pitchers. But, it is dangerous, and that is a fact. How many have played the game right and not gotten injured?

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S****r or cross country. Football is an injury waiting to happen. It is not "if" it is when what and how serious.

If he has a better chance of succeeding in football, then go for it. But, if his future is in baseball, he will hurt an arm shoulder or knee playing football.

I always love when people bring this kind of stuff up. Sure football has the highest incidence of injury; it has the highest numbers of participation too!!

And if you really think s****r or cross country are not "injuries waiting to happen" you are mistaken. Stress fractures, sprains, muscle imbalances, etc. In s****r, much of the same injuries as football: concussions, broken bones, dislocations; it's all possible.


If a kid wants to play football, let him play football. The memories developed playing high school football are just unbelievable. A kid is only in high school once.

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Reply You can get injured paying any sport. The most dangerous HS sport is cheerleading followed by gymnastics.

I wonder how many people have sat next to you at the bar while you told your "war" stories about HS football and them told them how you can forcast the weather with your bum knee.



Main Web Site High School Baseball Web High School Baseball Web Illinois Forum High school summer ball hurt development?

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Originally posted by bballdad1954:
S****r or cross country. Football is an injury waiting to happen. It is not "if" it is when what and how serious.

If he has a better chance of succeeding in football, then go for it. But, if his future is in baseball, he will hurt an arm shoulder or knee playing football.

What a terrible way to go through life, scared of participating because of a potential for sports injury.

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Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
If a kid wants to play football, let him play football. The memories developed playing high school football are just unbelievable. A kid is only in high school once.

YEAH BABY...ROCK THEIR WORLD! Nothing like it.

Mental toughness is not dis associative from physical toughness. Contrary to popular belief (from those who never experienced it), it's not about what you can dish out, it's about learning about how much you can take...came up smiling ear to ear from some great shots...given & gotten.

At West Point, boxing is a requirement for all cadets. Real boxing...black eyes, blood, broken bones. Do you want to know the real reason why? It's so that Cadets can understand they can get punched in the face and not die.

There is nothing, like taking a huge shot...laid out...totally steam rolled...and getting up to do it again.

Those that cower and shy away from such aggression in sport, never fully learn what they are capable of...IMHO.

The females do this too?

If I was her Dad, I do not think I would like that.

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Originally posted by nc42dad:
The females do this too?

If I was her Dad, I do not think I would like that.

Yup, every Cadet. Of course females are paired off with other females.

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That gets back to my point exactly, why play games 4 days a week and NEVER practice? Why not play 3 days a week and practice on those 'weaknessess" on the practice day instead of waiting for the "offseason"?

DTA,if there is one thing that I am confident of it is that travel fails at the same level to practice as many times as you suggest HS baseball to practice (infact this baseball utopia you speak of doesn't exist). While it true about all sports, you get better at the game by playing. There is great difficulty in simulating all that baseball can encompass.

Secondly,You state that this is not a debate about HS ball, but you finish your statement by stating that travel ball is light years ahead of HS baseball. I have spent many a year watching and evaluating the efforts of those light years ahead and have found it to be significantly inconclusive as it applies to the development of my players (and I have had many). There is a major distinction between Travel and HS summer programs, I said it before and I will say it again. Summer baseball is about identifying strengths and weaknessess within the team/individual. Travel ball is about exposure, instuction/instructors is of great quality and poor quality, no different then any level of baseball. But there is a freedom I have in HS that leads to a multitude of teachable moments and develops skill with out the consequence of not being deemed a prospect.

As an example: we will hit and run on 1-1 counts with one out and a man on first. No matter the score/inning/pitcher/catcher. Or we will sacrafice bunt innings 5/6/7 again, no matter the score/innings/out.

So before you pass judgement think, which really enhances player development.

If I may add my two cents...while summer practicing sounds good in theory, reality says otherwise. After an entire off-(and pre-)season of individual and team workouts, coupled with a pretty intensive spring high school schedule, the last thing that these players care to do is sit out on a practice field during the summer. Right or wrong, like it or not, their minds are just not into it which, more times than not, results in a rather meaningless practice session.

Instead, and seeing that our baseball season is as short as it is, I would much rather my son see as much pitching and game situations as possible during the summer months and allow for those "teaching moments" as Playball2 alluded to. At the same time, the more serious players will still find time to put in whatever individual training is necessary along the way. As far as I'm concerned, play as many games as you can during the summer and spend the winter months honing the mechanics...JMO.

And, by the way, my opinion pertains to travel, high school, and legion baseball equally across the board.

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Sent an email to coach, AD and principal, still no response, maybe next phone call should be to the IHSA!

CSG, Email? Phone call? Huh? put down your blackberry and How about a face to face? Issues seemed to be resolved much faster when men talk to each other in an orderly fashion. This way you may find out that your son has missed out on an opportunity he failed to capitilize on. Like a secondary position or for that matter a second or third pitch or location (inside fastball) to work on in a competitive situation without the worry of consequence. Like most you chose the exposure over the development. Every pitch a max effort pitch so that barrels can be missed. Lastly, you failed to mention the relationship of that coach and the 15U team. Pretty certain somebody on that team is calling DAD.

Can I put in my two cents on playing football in the fall? My son has played two years of high school football at this point. It kept him working out and getting stronger during the baseball off season. From November to March 1st, he was in a modified football weight lifting program. I told the coaches to realize that he was a baseball pitcher first, so work on the legs on trunk, but not the upper body as much.

To make a long story short, he went from a pretty good freshman pitcher to a very very good varsity pitcher in one year. As a sophmore he started 9 varsity games, won 6 of them and had an ERA around 2.50. Started two state playoff games and pitched deep into both games, and his team won both games. The baseball coaches were nothing but supportive of him playing football.

Bottom line to me is that there is no way he would be as good a pitcher as he is now if he wasn't playing football. He will definetly play football this fall and pitch one game a week for a travel team just to keep in the game. Yes he could get hurt playing football but in my mind that is a risk worth taking. Besides he has a great time on the football team, and there is no way I'm going to take that experience away from him.

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Originally posted by bballdad1954:
Save all the stuff about the great two sport athletes. I know. There are many great baseball players that played football and vice versa. Also, a lot of good quarterbacks are catchers or pitchers. But, it is dangerous, and that is a fact. How many have played the game right and not gotten injured?

Interesting. Football was Jackie Robinson's first sport. Back to my son. Thanks for all your comments He was out much of last year with injuries so we are trying to be careful. His chances of playing high school football are slim but his chances of playing high school baseball are good. He's the kind of kid who puts 200% into it and it makes him take unnecessary risks and increase the chance of injury. He's also become smaller than average this year. I got some pressure for him to play football from the coaches saying that he can play basketball and baseball for years to come but this is his only shot at football and that he is a gritty gutty player and that is what football is about.

I don't know--I hope I'm not being overly protective--but the injuries were really depressing.

Junior (10 starts as a junior this past spring) pitches the final two innings of a meaningless HS summer game last week. Coach wanted him to get some work in. Throws one pitch, strains a muscle in the rotator cuff and now he is shelved for the rest of the summer. Ouch.

So, my experience would lead me to say yes, HS summer ball hurt his development.

Also, Junior played s****r his freshman and sophomore year, but did not fall of junior year. Even though he worked out, his conditioning was not at the same level as it had been playing s****r.

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Throws one pitch, strains a muscle in the rotator cuff and now he is shelved for the rest of the summer. Ouch.

So, my experience would lead me to say yes, HS summer ball hurt his development.

Wow. He could have easily done that anywhere else. I don't see how you can blame HS summer ball.

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So, my experience would lead me to say yes, HS summer ball hurt his development.

your not serious, are you?

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Originally posted by Playball2:

your not serious, are you?

Maybe I define "development" a bit differently, which would be Junior's overall growth as a player/pitcher and getting him ready to play in college, if given the opportunity. Development would not include running a risk to derail those opportunities.

So, in that context, I would say: Yes, I am serious. His HS coach already knows what he can do, Junior was told he would not be expected to pitch that day and his HS coach knew Junior had some opportunities coming up for which he needed to be fresh. Overall, his HS coach gets it and is very good with such things. His HS and travel coach work together on a schedule and for that, I am thankful. But, because he threw when he didn't need to, opportunities now will pass him by.

I also understand the strain could have happened at any time. But, as a parent, it becomes hoping, praying and cringing every time he stepped on the mound for a couple of innings at times when he didn't need to be out there.

To me, HS Spring, HS Summer playoffs and playing/pitching in front of coaches/scouts is one thing, and pitching in a situation that doesn't matter is another. Why run the risk?

Used to Hit 300- If your son only pitches when he "needs to be out there", how do you expect him to perform at his peek ability when it matters? Doesn't he need a bullpen session occasionally anyway? Doesn't he need to work on his pitches? Also, you better not give him the reputation of being a little china doll or that will steer coaches away from him more than a poor outing.

It's been my experience that HS coaches far too often are inexperienced at virtually every aspect of coaching. For every solid coach there seem to be 5 lost souls.

No where was this more apparent than at a local private HS that has a fabulous reputation for athletics in general. Freshman and sophomore players were subjected to a man that shouldn't have coached tee ball.

Not every player can play at OPRF, Brother Rice or St. Rita......etc.

At least on the high end Illinois and the midwest in general have some excellent Travel ball opportunities. My advice...if your kid is not a high end performer, keep him with the HS summer team. If he is a high end performer get him with one of several Travel teams where he can gain exposure and find out just how good he is.

The better the HS prgram is, the more likely the coach will be willing to work out a schedule that is right for the HS team and the player.

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It's been my experience that HS coaches far too often are inexperienced at virtually every aspect of coaching. For every solid coach there seem to be 5 lost souls.

And that isn't rampant in travel ball, select ball, whatever? Daddbyball anyone???

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Originally posted by Used to Hit 300:
But, as a parent, it becomes hoping, praying and cringing every time he stepped on the mound for a couple of innings at times when he didn't need to be out there.

To me, HS Spring, HS Summer playoffs and playing/pitching in front of coaches/scouts is one thing, and pitching in a situation that doesn't matter is another. Why run the risk?

This is meant very respectfully, so I hope it doesn't come out wrong...but the point, is to play. Teaching timidity, which has come up twice now in the last week, is counter productive, not only to sport, but to the development of a person.

What is the risk? That you won't be able to play the game. Sounds like a catch 22. If you play the game, you risk not being able to play the game, but not playing the game means you're not playing the game you don't want to risk playing.

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Originally posted by CPLZ:

This is meant very respectfully, so I hope it doesn't come out wrong...but the point, is to play. Teaching timidity, which has come up twice now in the last week, is counter productive, not only to sport, but to the development of a person.

What is the risk? That you won't be able to play the game. Sounds like a catch 22. If you play the game, you risk not being able to play the game, but not playing the game means you're not playing the game you don't want to risk playing.

In response, respectfully, he plays plenty - usually getting 7-9 innings on the mound per week, some infield/outfield and his AB's. He wants to be on the field. I completely understand the Catch 22 and it is not the issue. It's just with the HS coach knowing what the kid has/had on his playing plate, I just thought it to be an unnecessary risk. Respectfully

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Originally posted by soxnole:
And that isn't rampant in travel ball, select ball, whatever? Daddbyball anyone???

Too often I have noticed the travel ball, select ball, whatever coaches are there to coach the game (fill in the line-up) and not coach the game. soxnole, some daddy's actually have somewhat of a clue.

used to hit .300...I could get your point if had gotten hurt because he was overpitched at the time of the injury...but if he wasn't I don't get your point. Is he allowed to throw any time he "doesn't need to?" You could say throwing the ball from anywhere but the mound is an unneccesary risk.

Some coaches would never let a blue-chip pitcher play outfield just for that reason. Why let a kid try to gun down a runner at home from 250 feet away? That seems like far more of a risk than pitching.

Thinking about heading out to the old high school ballyard tomorrow to see many of these players on both sides get their baseball development stunted. Should be fun.

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Originally posted by Playball2:

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That gets back to my point exactly, why play games 4 days a week and NEVER practice? Why not play 3 days a week and practice on those 'weaknessess" on the practice day instead of waiting for the "offseason"?

DTA,if there is one thing that I am confident of it is that travel fails at the same level to practice as many times as you suggest HS baseball to practice (infact this baseball utopia you speak of doesn't exist). While it true about all sports, you get better at the game by playing. There is great difficulty in simulating all that baseball can encompass.

Secondly,You state that this is not a debate about HS ball, but you finish your statement by stating that travel ball is light years ahead of HS baseball. I have spent many a year watching and evaluating the efforts of those light years ahead and have found it to be significantly inconclusive as it applies to the development of my players (and I have had many). There is a major distinction between Travel and HS summer programs, I said it before and I will say it again. Summer baseball is about identifying strengths and weaknessess within the team/individual. Travel ball is about exposure, instuction/instructors is of great quality and poor quality, no different then any level of baseball. But there is a freedom I have in HS that leads to a multitude of teachable moments and develops skill with out the consequence of not being deemed a prospect.

As an example: we will hit and run on 1-1 counts with one out and a man on first. No matter the score/inning/pitcher/catcher. Or we will sacrafice bunt innings 5/6/7 again, no matter the score/innings/out.

So before you pass judgement think, which really enhances player development.

Playball2 - you are probably more the exception, not the rule when it comes to coaches and working on things to make your team better from what I have seen, heard and talked to players who are playing in summer league games.

No duh the travel team fails at the same level of practice that the HS team does. I do not get any of the players during the week because they play with their HS teams and I would never insist that a kid missed his HS games. Not sure where I said anything about this baseball utopia, because it does not exist around here.

I would contend that the better HS players that are juniors and incoming seniors would be better off NOT playing HS summer baseball and playing more travel level games or legion leagues, whatever it is that gets them more games against better competition. It is also my opinion because MOST do not, summer baseball hurts their development.
For the average player, you are probably right, the HS summer season does have some benefits for them, and even the higher level player gets some benefits from summer baseball (AB's) and innings pitched.

Practice - doesn't need to be the worthless 3 hr practice where nothing gets done. A quick 1.5 hour practice working on fielding groundballs (can never get enough groundballs) and situations, covering first etc once a week can do nothing but improve young ballplayers. If a kid does not want to or like practice, then maybe he does not want to be a ball player. This again is just my opinion.

In the off season, I don't think kids should be forced to play travel baseball or high school off season baseball.

Results are what count! Someone needs to check the results of all those that play one or the other.

The results could include the success of the individual high schools which would be measured by wins and loses or championships. Or the results could be measured by what happens to the individual players as far as moving on to the next level or highest levels.

Either way, competing against the best possible competition in front of hundreds of college coaches can be very benificial. Whether it is travel or high school, lack of competition is not going to help a whole lot.

We are very lucky because we get to see most of the top players from Illinois. (Those who experience the "most" success in recruiting or the draft)

We do not go to any high school games in Illinois during the summer. That's not to say that MLB scouts and college recruiters don't.

If this is all about development... Players need the best possible at developing talent and the best possible competition. The best at developing talent could be either the high school coach, the travel coach, or someone who works with individuals. I believe the best competition involves playing against the best players and best teams in the country. Travel teams that don't travel, probably will not understand this.

There's a very good reason why the best players usually end up playing for one of the top travel teams from Illinois. Same thing in any other state, for that matter. Just my opinion! I have been wrong many times!

My kids were pitchers and I watched all this summer high school baseball for the last 5 years. My opinions of it are mixed.

It is better to face hitters than just throw a bullpen.

"Throwing" versus "pitching" doesn't develop the pitcher's pitching skills.

Our pitchers never call their own pitches during the spring but call their own games in the summer (other than the playoff games.)

However, if a kid has mechanical issues it generally is not going to be worked on in the summer.

Looking back I would say it was better than nothing but at least at our high school, it really did not help them make big strides in developing their pitching skills. As for exposure, I see fewer and fewer people coming to watch.

Used to hit 300..............

Please don't misquote me.

Proof Read, comprehend and make sure you know who the heck your talking to.

I'm actually on your side of the argument, though Daddyball is more often a problem than a path to success...it's not about being a Dad but about your qualifications and your assistant's qualification.

Not every travel team has a Top Tier, Wisconsin Blazers, Norwood Blues or Indiana Yankee type of staff. Not every travel team has a Buddy Swift or Bill Copp at the helm.

Every "travel team" stands on its own and should be evaluated with extreme scrutiny. I have seen some scary travel teams in my day.

Well said as usual Soxnole.

Rich Pildes as been a tremedous help to my son as the Norwood Blues coach. They only practice the first week, but we do have an extensive pre-game whenever possible. Pildes takes notes and goes over situations that presented itself in each game and discusses why things were done, what could have been done better, or what was done well. It is how to play baseball strategically. Fundamentals are not taught fot the most part, although he has been known to help kids before and after games if he thinks it is necessary. He has also recommended coaches that give lessons if he feels a kid needs it.

But, my son was lucky with summer high school ball. He had Ron Zagorsky and others coach in summer. The summer team would show up an hour before games to practice, then play the game. Fundamentals were worked on in the high school level.

Travel and summer ball coexisted because the coaches all wanted my son to be the best he could be. During the week, he would play hs summer ball if there was no conflict. If there was, he would play travel. Of course, he wasn't a pitcher which obviously complicates matters.

You can get lucky with coaches. You can also be unlucky. My son has been lucky to have had Pildes, Tichy, and Toledo, as well as great assistants like Zagorsky, Casey and Sanchez.

quote:

Originally posted by soxnole:
Used to hit 300..............

Please don't misquote me.

Proof Read, comprehend and make sure you know who the heck your talking to.

I'm actually on your side of the argument, though Daddyball is more often a problem than a path to success...it's not about being a Dad but about your qualifications and your assistant's qualification.

soxnole - we are on the same page and I had no intention of misquoting you. Paraphrasing the current Supreme Court nominee, my comment fell flat. I too have seen daddyball - and travel ball - at it's worst. And I have seen daddyball prepare kids better than non-daddy's coaching travel teams. It is all about the qualifications.

quote:

It is better to face hitters than just throw a bullpen.

and vice versa from the offensive stand point. Again if it is development we are speaking of I see no better opportunity than HS summer league. Again, making attempts to enhance what ever skill without the threat of being written off as a prospect.

Regardless of HS Summer Ball or Travel Ball, development has to come from the player 1st and foremost thru effort and commitment that seldom have that many wish they had.

For him to fully develop over the Summer/Fall/Winter into Spring, he'll have to work hard when neither HS or Travel ball are going on b/c there isn't enough time regardless of either direction to fully develop.

Whether that means a players needs improve his arm strength and throw long-toss off a brick wall or him and a buddy go a local cage and work on hitting by doing tee/soft-toss drills etc.

True maxmimum effort will go further than deciding one way or the other between Travel ball or HS.

UK...true but irrelevant to the discussion, let alone stating the obvious.

After two weeks of not pitching, HS coach wants Junior to throw an inning last night to check recovery status. Two pitches in, Junior takes a line drive off of his pitching hand. Just too funny.

quote:

After two weeks of not pitching, HS coach wants Junior to throw an inning last night to check recovery status. Two pitches in, Junior takes a line drive off of his pitching hand. Just too funny.

Wow common sense ain't too common in Chi-town, huh? Why would you allow that? Why would your son allow that? If the doctor did not clear him to pitch, he should NOT pitch!

.

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
Wow common sense ain't too common in Chi-town, huh?

We used to have quite a deep reservoir of it years ago...



...but we're tapped out now!

quote:

Originally posted by soxnole:
UK...true but irrelevant to the discussion, let alone stating the obvious.

How is it irrelevant?

Parents put too much focus on travel ball/Summer, how many showcases can we afford to have my son enter, etc?

It isn't some magic potion to guarantee every wish simply b/c your son plays travel ball over HS or vice versa.

Picking one or the other likely matters very little in the overall development of a baseball athlete picking one or the other.

I'd rather practice less with a quality instructor than more with a poor one.

The only that gets discussed in travel/HS debates in trying to compare them to one another rather than what separates them from each other for that individual child.

Very seldom does the quality of coaches get mentioned nor does the actual effort an athlete puts into it get mentioned, it's not stating the obvious b/c so many kids don't do much beyond what is expected, the kids with the great make-up stick out it doesn't require talent to do yet is extremely hard to find. Just b/c you pay for something (showcase, travel, equip.) doesn't automatically that he'll get the most out of it. It's up to the child to get the most out of something, not some HS or travel ball program. Some kids and way too many parents look for excuses rather than looking closer to home when something doesn't go their child's way. Most of the time it is a lack of god given ability and sometime effort as to why he didn't develop as you had hoped rather than some coaching flaw.

UK,

Because it go's without saying....if not irrelavant it is superflous!

Re-read my posts...coaching is what it's all about.

If your kid is a better than average player then he might lean to TB or HS based on the opportunity.

Some players with no rep or clout would certainly be better off playing for OPRF or St. Rita than an also ran travel team. The flip side is that the elite travel teams can provide a signifigant step up with regard to competition and
instruction...depending on the HS team, the travel team and playing time.

Hard work and dedication is a given regardless of who you are and where you play.

I agree, just having seen and heard some of the excuses throughout the years from parents and kids, sometimes I wonder how obvious what I said is actually obvious.

My son is a rising senior playing on a top travel team this summer. There are probably 12 kids on the team who will end up with scholarships to D1 schools by the time the recruiting process is over.

The reason I bring this up is I cannot believe the amount of pressure that their high school coaches put on some (most) of these kids to come back from their tournament to play in a meaningless summer high school playoff game. There have been recruiters (and a few head coaches) from top schools at our travel games throughout the summer determining a player's future and in addition to the pressure these kids naturally feel from that situation they also have to deal with phone calls from high school coaches telling them how selfish they are because they don't drop everyone and come home to play in front of grandma (assuming she's not busy). It is the most unbelievable thing I have ever witnessed. Kids have been almost in tears after talking with their coaches. I know of one coach who pulled his hs team together to tell them before a game how selfish this one player is because he was not there and instead was playing with his travel team.

Don't believe for a moment that its only the lower level hs coaches who pull this stunt, the top hs teams coaches do the same. I know it first hand. The recruiting window is very small and the opportunities as we all know are few. The top 5% kids must get out there during the summer and play in front of the colleges and the hs ball must take a back seat (if at all). Think for a moment if the shoe was on the other foot; that is, a high teacher's professional development was affected by a short time frame in the summer. Think under this scenario that a hs administration telling the coach that instead of his future and professional development he must instead attend a meaningless optional event. The union bosses would be all over it and it would be handled in their next contract. These hs coaches get away with this nonsense simply because they can. My nephew in Coloradio was not allowed to play summer travel ball last year and his baseball career is over. Would his career be over if he was allowed to play travel ball during this important time in his life? Maybe, maybe not but he'll never know.

What I've wintessed this summer listening to parents and players (thankfullly its not my sons coach, he's been great)is nothing short of a scandal. If I was to give one piece of advice to 8th grade parents about your son's post high school dreams it would be check out your hs school coaches philosophy on travel ball, particularly the summer of his junior year. Its a make or break attitude that could affect his future more than anything else.

For an overwhelming number of schools it may be concluded that the number one priority of high school baseball is not about the development of the individual's baseball skills, it is about "something different." Fill in the blanks.

quote:

My nephew in Coloradio was not allowed to play summer travel ball last year and his baseball career is over. Would his career be over if he was allowed to play travel ball during this important time in his life? Maybe, maybe not but he'll never know.

What I've wintessed this summer listening to parents and players (thankfullly its not my sons coach, he's been great)is nothing short of a scandal. If I was to give one piece of advice to 8th grade parents about your son's post high school dreams it would be check out your hs school coaches philosophy on travel ball, particularly the summer of his junior year. Its a make or break attitude that could affect his future more than anything else.

Well done IGBALL condemn a whole institution because of hearsay and a nephew who didn't move forward. Sounds pretty arbitrary. Let me represent the remaining shred of dignity that was afforded to us HS coaches after this post by saying this. Don't play HS baseball. If there is a better option then take it. Why would you want to put your son in a program that fails to look out for his best interest. It is the one thing that continues to baffle me. Aren't parents supposed to be protecting their kids, but they would continue to put them back into a situation that fails to enhance their person. Come on. You actions speak louder than, your words. You can't have both. Make a decision and don't look back. Hindsight is always 20/20, hope you've make the right decision, for your sons sake.

Playball,

Trying to understand your point. My nephew is not the subject of the post but only one small example. The point is many many hs coaches only care about themselves and not their players future (again not all, my son's hs coach is great as I mentioned). What many of them have put some kids through this summer is not make believe but nothing short of abuse. Your point seems to be that if you don't like the abuse don't play hs baseball at all. Either grin and bare it or leave. Very enlightened reasoning. I think one part of a teacher/ coaches job is to help some kids play on the next level. Do you think for the top kids that that goal is best reached on your summer field or in front of hundreds of college recruiters elsewhere? If you don't like me mentioning this fact about your profession how about the poor kid with tears in his eyes because his hs coach ripped him in front of his team simply because he wants to play college baseball? This instance is not isolated but pervasive and is not hearsay. I think you would like to keep these ugly facts about some of your brethren in the dark and your comments only suppport my point that some (again not all) coaches do this because they can.

BTW, its not about my son either, he's doing just fine thank you. It's about the abuse other fine kids have received at the hands of hs coaches this summer. It's a scandal.

We faced this issue when my last son was playing. I do understand that those kids who want to play on a higher level want the challenges associated with high level travel ball. But I'd hate to think that all these kids are so talented and so on the fast track that they can't enjoy their HS experience, and if any kid around here thinks they are too big to play for their HS in The Summer League Playoffs maybe that's not a good thing.

I'm not saying playing with your Travel Buddies isn't a good thing, but there is an awful lot to be said about going to HS and the memories and experince that goes with it. There are certainly a few players around who truly are that special that perhaps giving up those HS experiences is just the right thing to do.

Once it becomes business and nothing but a business for a HS kid, I'm not sure that is a good thing.

I guess I'm not making the point very well. It's not about being too big for your team or by-passing the joy of hs baseball. It's about some kids desire to continue to play this great game after high school and them putting in the time, effort and cost associated with those dreams during the summer after their junior year and simply not having to deal with abusive hs coaches in the process.

I don't think its too much to ask.

quote:

What many of them have put some kids through this summer is not make believe but nothing short of abuse

But that is not the institution, that is the individual coach. I do agree that part of my job is to get kids to the next level. Something I work very hard at. However I want to put a polished product out on the field, there are things that the individual can develop within the summer league that won't deem him a non-prospect.

quote:

There are certainly a few players around who truly are that special that perhaps giving up those HS experiences is just the right thing to do.

Once it becomes business and nothing but a business for a HS kid, I'm not sure that is a good thing.

Agreed, 100%