Hit Every Day??

I firmly believe that a truly great player/hitter is somewhat OBSESSIVE compulsive. Its not a bad thing as long as it's in a positive manner.

Obsession about self-discipline, work ethic, and doing things right are exactly the approach to staying energized thru a long-term systematic training program. Which is exactly what a skilled athlete must do. I am not a believer that it happens randomly or by accident!

GED10DaD

Prime9: Repost this over in the hitting forum. It is a very interesting subject that should be discussed.

I don't know if I know how to do that(repost)?

Prime - this is an interesting topic and I'll link it into the hitting forum. I deleted your duplicate thread over there.

Welcome to the hsbbweb btw

quote:

What say you? Is systematic training the right way or an obsession? How did you approach it with your sons or players? Are the best, those you are gifted and or trained the most or a combination?

I think the majority of players have to train hard in order to succeed. Every once and a while, there is a player who is so gifted that they probably could train a lot less than others imho. Similarly, there are kids who are so smart they hardly have to crack a book, for example.

I can only speak from my personal experiences. I have seen my son get better each year by practicing his butt off. It's not my idea he do that although I do think it a good idea in the profession he has chosen. At the young ages, I think parents ought to encourage their kids to have fun. If the kids love it so much that they desire the extra work then so be it. I believe players make themselves players. I don't believe parents ought to supply the motivation. Parents can certainly facilitate things but it comes down to how much does a given player enjoy what they are doing imho and the rest takes care of itself.

CD great post I agree 100%

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
I think the majority of players have to train hard in order to succeed. Every once and a while, there is a player who is so gifted that they probably could train a lot less than others imho. Similarly, there are kids who are so smart they hardly have to crack a book, for example.

Independent ball and the minor leagues are full of guys with incredible physical talent. To be good at something is very different from being great at something. There are a lot more "BP All-Americans" and "5 O'Clock Heros" than there are great players.

Here's a good article on Pujols for perspective:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espnmag/story?id=3723078

If you are going to hit every day, make sure to train both sides of your body. Hitting every day would make you a prime candidate for overuse injuries.

"Talent Is Overrated" by Geoff Colvin is a great read on this subject and has specific examples from the world of athletics.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbyTewks:

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
I think the majority of players have to train hard in order to succeed. Every once and a while, there is a player who is so gifted that they probably could train a lot less than others imho. Similarly, there are kids who are so smart they hardly have to crack a book, for example.

Independent ball and the minor leagues are full of guys with incredible physical talent. To be good at something is very different from being great at something. There are a lot more "BP All-Americans" and "5 O'Clock Heros" than there are great players.

Here's a good article on Pujols for perspective:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espnmag/story?id=3723078

If you are going to hit every day, make sure to train both sides of your body. Hitting every day would make you a prime candidate for overuse injuries.

"Talent Is Overrated" by Geoff Colvin is a great read on this subject and has specific examples from the world of athletics.

Bobby - I don't disagree at all with what you are saying. I just don't believe in absolutes either. The one who changed my mind in this area was Josh Hamilton. For several years, he was not working at the game like he ought to be imho. He is one who can out-talent the game imho. They are obviously few and far between but every once in a while, perhaps once in a lifetime, someone gets by with less and still exceeds more.

I was at the HR Derby at the old Yankee Stadium. What Hamilton is capable of is INCREDIBLE.

http://a15.video2.blip.tv/1540...m4v?bri=3.2&brs=2134
(The video is old - sorry for the cheesy scrolling text.)

I have reservations about calling him a great player. Great talent, great tools. Definitely much more gifted and talented than Pujols. IMO, great players are consistent over time.

C-Dad,
Not sure your analogy using Josh Hamilton is a good one. I agree, only a super talented player could sit out like he did and then have that kind of impact upon returning. However, many great players have taken time off in their prime and come back to great success; Ted Williams missed five years of his prime to two wars. Warren Spahn and others missed time during WW II.

Hamilton's history before getting into trouble in Tampa, was a legendary work ethic, great attitude, sound religious background, all leading to his number one pick of the draft that year by Tampa Bay.

Certainly not every one is equal, some may need to toil less for success, but nobody in baseball can exceed to greatness "without doing the work."

My son hits everyday because he chooses to do so.

Hopefully, I can answer your question in a couple of years.

Tewk,
Wish I knew how to do "the quote" highlight that you guys use?

Anyway, agree whole heartedly about training both sides, lesson number one learned in martial arts training to prevent injury!

quote:

Originally posted by redbird5:
My son hits everyday because he chooses to do so.

Hopefully, I can answer your question in a couple of years.

The ONLY way it would work, he must want to. If he has the talent, and sticks with it you will have a great story to tell in a few ticks!

Work ethic had nothing to do with Josh being the #1 pick out of hs. He was a natural. Did he work hard at the game? Yes. But no harder than the other guys on his hs team at Athens Drive. When he was 13 he was dropping bombs with wood. I saw him in HS several times. You dont work your way to being 6'4 200 lbs , run a 6.5 60 , throw 94 from the left side , and hit for average , ridiculous power at the age of 17. Some kids are just naturals.

I coached a kid in HS and he actually lived with me his last year and a half of high school. He was the most talented baseball player I have ever coached. And I have coached some outstanding players including a guy in the majors right now. As a 14 year old freshman he sat at 88 with a loose arm it was effortless. He could hit a baseball a mile. And he could run like a deer. I did everything I could to get him to understand work ethic. But the fact is he didnt love baseball he just liked to play baseball. He did just enough to graduate from HS. He signed with a JUCO because he couldnt get into any of the numerous major D1 programs that wanted him. He was drafted out of hs and signed. He sat on his butt and did nothing before leaving for pro ball. He lit it up and was named one of his org's top prospects after one year as a rhp. He came back home and sat around doing nothing and returned for his second year. He was lights out once again.

He did not return for this past season. Why? "I just dont love it coach. I dont want to do what they want me to do." Now he works a 9-5 and plays softball. This kid was so talented he was capable of doing things others were not capable of doing no matter how hard they worked. Its not fair. But its just the way it is sometimes. Too bad he didnt have the work ethic and love of the game needed to continue in the game. No doubt if he had continued his lack of work ethic would have caught up with him.

As much as we would like to think that if you work hard enough you can be great and make it that simply is not the case. Working as hard as you can will get you one thing. You will know you were the best you could be. And that might not get you to the show. But you will know in your heart you didnt cheat yourself. And thats something you can live with when its all said and done.

quote:

Originally posted by Prime9:
Anyway, agree whole heartedly about training both sides, lesson number one learned in martial arts training to prevent injury!

I developed stress fractures in my back from hitting too much without balancing things out when I was in college. My eyes lit up when I saw the "Hit Every Day" title.

In my previous Hamilton post, I resisted putting that he only hit .268 last year. Hopefully he can stay healthy (physically and mentally) next year.

Redbird my youngest is the same way. He loves the game. He loves to work at the game. He will be the best he can possibly be. It got him where he is today. Now we will just have to see where it takes him. But regardless of where the journey ends he will have no regrets and he will know he was the best he could be. The jury is still out. But as a Dad I can only say I am very proud of that. And I know you are as well. Good luck and I will def be keeping up with young RedBird!

Coach_May,
Great story and how true. You must first have the inate ability as no amount of "working at it" can get you there alone. What a waste when you see those who could, but won't put forth the effort.

But getting back to the question, if you are to be a professional hitter, or if you are one now, what value, if any, is there in taking time off?

How about just to take a break over the Holiday Season, clear your head, relax a week or two and pick it back up in January?

Mine has played or worked hard non stop since January. Close to 100 games plus training.

I think you need to shut down for at least a few weeks each year for both mental and physical re-creation.

Yep. It can be a serious grind. Fall ball , spring season , summer ball and right back to school. I think taking a break and just relaxing for a couple of weeks is a good thing.

Pro ball is an incredible job... with terrible hours, huge physical demands, and lots of travel. Playing every day punishes your body and your mind. The time off lets you recover. I joke around with my buddy who still plays that he goes into hibernation after each season. Your sleep schedule is all off, your body hurts, you are trying to figure out what to do without going to the park each day.

You could keep hitting and training, but there is something to say for some personal time. It's like taking a vacation from a day job or school.

There was an article in SI a few years ago about Pujos. He said he takes from end of season to December 1 off. Two months without playoffs. Come December he starts hitting in the cage. I think soft toss. So even the best need time off to recharge and to live their life a little.

One of the things that stood out to me was when he first starts to hit each year he hits everything to the right to get him used letting the ball get deep. Amazing talent plus hard work is why he is the best hitter in the game today IMO.

I believe by the time you become a pro the time off for mental recuperation is as important as anything. For an amateur however I think hitting every day should help you improve your swing. As far as I know there are no wear and tear issues in hitting like pitching. Golfers for example play and hit all year.

quote:

Originally posted by Prime9:
The ONLY way it would work, he must want to. If he has the talent, and sticks with it you will have a great story to tell in a few ticks!

I agree! I don't push him to do it, he does it on his own. I have made sure not to push him since he started the game. I merely facilitate his obsession.

quote:

Originally posted by BOF:
I believe by the time you become a pro the time off for mental recuperation is as important as anything. For an amateur however I think hitting every day should help you improve your swing. As far as I know there are no wear and tear issues in hitting like pitching. Golfers for example play and hit all year.

I believe amateurs need time off also. Young people, 14-17 year olds, also need time to recharge batteries and smell a few other roses along the way.

A month or so off from hitting in the fall (November) will not set many hitters back IMO.
I would think that getting approximately 7-10 thousand proper swings from December 1 to March 1 is more than enough to have a HS player ready when practice starts in early March.

quote:

Originally posted by BOF:
For an amateur however I think hitting every day should help you improve your swing. As far as I know there are no wear and tear issues in hitting like pitching. Golfers for example play and hit all year.

Golfers are notorious for overuse injuries - constant stress from swinging/rotational forces, weak core, flexibility issues, etc. Hitters are the same way. If you address all these problems (and others), then you will be taking steps toward minimizing overuse injuries and improving performance.

For amateur players, learning about the swing and the mental aspects of hitting is critical. Just going to the cage and swinging isn't going to make you better. To many, I'm sure this is obvious. But when I'm at the local facilities I see a lot more people just hacking away off a pitching machine than I see actually working on their swings and developing a good process.

quote:

Originally posted by fillsfan:
I believe amateurs need time off also. Young people, 14-17 year olds, also need time to recharge batteries and smell a few other roses along the way.

A month or so off from hitting in the fall (November) will not set many hitters back IMO.
I would think that getting approximately 7-10 thousand proper swings from December 1 to March 1 is more than enough to have a HS player ready when practice starts in early March.

I have mandated my son take 6-8 weeks off every year for the last few years. This year, he asked if he could continue hitting through the winter. I was able to sit him down for 3 weeks in late October. I will let you know how it goes for him.

quote:

Originally posted by redbird5:

quote:

Originally posted by Prime9:
The ONLY way it would work, he must want to. If he has the talent, and sticks with it you will have a great story to tell in a few ticks!

I agree! I don't push him to do it, he does it on his own. I have made sure not to push him since he started the game. I merely facilitate his obsession.

"Facilitate his obsession," seems right to me also! I think I mentioned earlier that my son told me at 11 or 12 that baseball was what he wanted to do through College. I said, " ok I will support you and invest in what you need, but you must be willing to committ to the work." We agreed and I built the batting cage in the backyard and coached him, got him additional coaching when he progressed beyond "DAD", etc. I remember saying when he was younger, "what do you want to work on today because I promise that somebody is working to get better today and if you are not, then you best hope he doesn't want your position!" That always spurred him to get off the couch and today I think those thoughts motivate him to work, near daily, year around.

My own thoughts and obsession to "getting better" facilitated my bringing this topic up and I was aiming it towards post-puberescent athletes (not kids). I get the over-bearing parent and over-use injury concerns for younger athletes.

I gotta admit though (and I know I'm on an island here)that if the aim is continued improvement, and you've conditioned to handle the workload, that you need to train daily!! Again, the martial arts experience showing through but it's got to apply to all fine-motor skills.

Thanks for all the feedback, you guys are great!!

quote:

I remember saying when he was younger, "what do you want to work on today because I promise that somebody is working to get better today and if you are not, then you best hope he doesn't want your position!" That always spurred him to get off the couch and today I think those thoughts motivate him to work, near daily, year around.

Prime9 - I think you make a lot of great points.

My only very slight, slight disagreement is who supplies the motivation. I contend the player ought to supply it. I had a batting cage in my back yard but it was not my idea. I never suggested how much my son should work out either. Did I drive him to practice? yes. Did I help with the coaching? yes. Did I pitch bp and hit him ground balls? yes. Did I ever suggest he wasn't working hard enough? - I don't think so. The interesting thing here is we (you and I) both did about exactly the same things as parents so perhaps what we are talking about here is merely semantics. Interesting topic nonetheless

I truly believe that if the boy wants to hit every day then allow it ----if he doesn't then so be it--some kids do not need to hit every day--as a parent forcing it one way or the other may deter the boys desire

The only thing work ethic SHOULD guarantee you is peace of mind if you don't make it.

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:
The only thing work ethic SHOULD guarantee you is peace of mind if you don't make it.

EXACTLY, couldn't agree more Coach.

TR --- you, also, are so right. BUT no two boys/players, people are the same. There are those who need only gentle guidance and then there are some who may need a little "boost" now and again to remember their way. P.S. Hit ......... kids don't throw enought either!!

Interesting thread, and a topic I've been grappling with recently. My son is a freshman and will be 15 in a few weeks. He's been attending a hitting and throwing class (along with conditioning) at our local baseball academy 3 nights a week for the past few months (no fall ball), and our current plan is for him to start hitting and throwing at home on the nights he's not at class for an additional 2 or 3 nights a week. What I've recommended is 15 - 20 minutes for each activity (for throwing keeping the velocity less than 60%). I guess like the OP I'm on the mind that more repetition is better, as long as the practice session is controlled by limiting the time, or the intensity or both. So what do ya'll think, is 5 or 6 days of hitting (3 days hard, 2-3 days "restricted")per week too much for a 15 year old? What about my theory than hitting every day is probably ok as long as some of those days are restricted? TIA

Hitting year round or every day is not for everyone. Mentally, physically and emotionally, they have to be able to handle it. Break down injuries are frequently referenced from over use. So, even the routine has to be supplimented in ways that make the hitting session enjoyable. Let's not forget that these player are students as well. Tests, projects and typical "life" have to be accounted for. If your child is a junior then you might also have to factor in ACT prep. My daughter is a junior. She hits every night. I've worked off of basic premises with the teams I've coached. "Take one day off and you know it. Take two days off and your opponent knows it. Take three days off and everyone knows it." Also, "Repetition is no fun but its the reason we have won." My daughter has grown up listening to these philosophies and so has bought in to them. She sets her own practices up and I meet her in the gym after school. We keep it light and competitive. For example working on driving the ball the other way followed by setting up a cone with a softball on top of it and her object is to knock that ball off in x amount of swings. Again, I don't think this is for everyone and certainly isn't necessairy for everyone. Last week, we had a home baskeball tournament and so, they made us put up the cage all week. My daughter was furious. So, we had to pay to go elsewhere. I'll end this with this statement. I've often asked her to stop. I don't think this is healthy. Then again, she appears to have such a sense of pride when she has finished.

quote:

Originally posted by NorcalBBall_Dad:
Interesting thread, and a topic I've been grappling with recently. My son is a freshman and will be 15 in a few weeks. He's been attending a hitting and throwing class (along with conditioning) at our local baseball academy 3 nights a week for the past few months (no fall ball), and our current plan is for him to start hitting and throwing at home on the nights he's not at class for an additional 2 or 3 nights a week. What I've recommended is 15 - 20 minutes for each activity (for throwing keeping the velocity less than 60%). I guess like the OP I'm on the mind that more repetition is better, as long as the practice session is controlled by limiting the time, or the intensity or both. So what do ya'll think, is 5 or 6 days of hitting (3 days hard, 2-3 days "restricted")per week too much for a 15 year old? What about my theory than hitting every day is probably ok as long as some of those days are restricted? TIA

NorCal: To answer your question directly; No, I don't think it's too much BUT don't expect a huge improvement in skills immediately. It will come in 12 - 24 months if he has talent and is working "to improve technique (you know the Perfect practice thing?).

To comment further though; 15 yr. olds do not have mature growth plates (both elbow and shoulder plates are not yet closed, in most cases!) SO .... you must use some measure of moderation to prevent overuse issues. I recommend training both sides of the body. Also, 15 is about the age where Dads, for sure, need to be less involved in things directly but act more as a counselor who makes suggestions. Of course at their age (15), we parents are pretty "stupid" anyway and they look elsewhere for real advice! You have "farmed him out" to pros for training though, so you know that!

CoachB25; thanks for the nuggets ref days off; and reps being the reason you won! Those are very good and I'm among those in that camp and I "will for sure borrow those words."

There is a common thread popping up here and there that I don't agree with though. Specifically, that you prevent injury, but gain some measure of performance, while training at BELOW peak output. I must be honest here, I see little value gained through training at speeds or conditions that are LESS THAN game conditions. To clarify if we are working on hitting or throwing, we will warm up but there will not be a day we don't throw or hit at maximum output (barring injury recovery)by sessions end. I see little value in going through the motions. You throw harder, BY THROWING HARDER, you learn to attack in your Swing BY ATTACKING every time.

Prime9 has hit on some relevant issues. First “hitting” every day does not mean doing the same thing every day, that in fact would not be beneficial. Some days could be drills, some days live, some days T work, lessons, some days “over/under” work….actually over/under work should be done as a program set for 6-8 week intervals. The fact is that busy kids can’t hit every day, at least mine can’t; his schedule is just too full between schoolwork, lessons, practice, weight room, games, and the need of some down time. He try’s to get in work every day, but it ends up being 5-6 days a week.

The quality of the work is more important than the quantity of the work. When a 15 year old kid is training 5 - 6 days a week there are some things I think you have to do. First of all you have to make sure your son is driving this endeavor. When he shows signs of needing or wanting a break you have to allow it without showing negative emotions. I dont care how much a young kid loves the game or enjoys working at the game there will be times they need and want a break. As your son gets older and more things are pulling him in more directions if you dont learn to understand this you run the possibility of turning him away from the game.

You need to make sure the instruction and training he is getting is solid and the training is not based on quantity but based on quality. Twenty five quality swings are worth way more than 25 quality swings followed up by 200 non quality swings.

Swith it up. Core work outs couple with a good dynamic stretching routine one day. Long toss and hitting the next. Agility training and more stretching the next day. Hitting and long toss the next. Etc etc.

Switch up your hitting training. Work backside one day followed with basic mechanic drills. Follow that up with live bp etc the next day for example. Keep it fun and make sure its constructive and positive.

The bottom line is kids that love to work at getting better will want to work at getting better. But they all will need times when they dont have training or work outs. If you make it like a job and you are constantly driving them then it can lead to a kid that is not enjoying what he is doing. You need to look for signs that your kid needs a break. Why? Because some will not tell you because you have made it clear if they want to excell they need to train. They dont want to send you the wrong message and havve to hear that speech again.

Remember there will come a time when you will not be around to push them. And when that time comes they will have to have the ability to motivate themselves without you being there to do it. I have seen too many kids that were pushed who never learned to push themselves. And when the time came for them to be the one doing the pushing they were not capable or willing to do it.

Perhaps I think differently than most here but I never felt I had to drive my boys to anything---if they wanted it they did it--if they asked for a ride to the cage, I never had a cage in my yard, they got it---if they wanted to play catch in the yard I joined them

They were self motivators and we also always had kids at the house--our door was always open as was the refridgerator--we also had a multitude of Nintendo tournaments in the playroom--in fact many of the kids from their LL days are friends of mine on Facebook today

Bottom line was that they knew I was there for them--never missed any of their games regardless of the sport-- I think that is all that they needed--to know the support was there not to be pushing them but aiding them and supporting them

I never had to drive my boys either Tom. I did tell then what I thought they needed to do in order to be the best they could be. And I never turned them down when they wanted to play , catch , throw , fish , hunt , play video games etc etc. If I felt they were getting slack I would say something like "Dont get lazy and then come to me and wonder why you didnt do what you wanted to do next time out."

My boys were totally different in make up when it came to sports. My oldest loved to play the games but he wasnt driven to work at getting better. My youngest I had to hold back many times in fear he would grind himself into the ground. He was always so driven and so hard on himself. You never had to get on him because he was and is his worse critic.

Every kid is different. I never believed sports were something that you had or needed to drive a kid to do. Work , do good in school , be a good person , etc - You better be and you better not mess around. Sports , if you want it here it is go and get it. If not dont b#tch and whine to me when it doesnt work out for you.