Hoodwinked........what a gimmick!!

I enjoy a good "Ping" now and then but NOTHING sounds better than the crack of a wood bat!!!

Oldslugger

You make too much sense. And that sense will save parents money and make the game much better.

Actually, the NCAA has discussed taking the lead in this.......about 4-5 years ago........I wasn't involved in the discussions, but I recall something about lawsuits from Easton and the other metal bat companies.

It is definitely as bad as you say it is, in my opinion.

I'm not sure how Easton or Louisville Slugger could get a lawsuit going. On what premise? Unless there's some sort of agreement? But, I think the prices are getting WAY out of line. $330 for an EXO Grid.....$400 for a Stealth??? Of course, having said that, there are some pretty darn price wood bats on the market too.

The funny thing is...........no professional baseball players are used to endorse the product as they are "verboten" by MLB?

So why is the price so high for what is mostly a hollow metal tube, or did I say snake oil?

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:4ENM2uZ_DpcJ:www.kno...n&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2

I always love these discussions on metal bats.

Initially the added cost of the bat was based on the idea that that bat would be the last one you would ever have to buy. It didn't crack, warp or break.

And then it happened.

Metal bats were made lighter, filled with air, made of supposedly valuable metals.

Most bats fail in a way that is almost impossible to detect until the next good contact. That plastic cap at the end cracks or the seal fails letting out that pressurized air that gives that $300 bat that extra pop.

I got a good laugh at the double walled bats. They have a tendency to crack. I couldn't believe it but metal bats crack from hitting baseballs today.

When I notified the company, they claimed that my boys were hitting those yellow plastic balls or that I did not take proper care of the bat while not in use.

Baseball bat manufacturers try very hard to convince the buyer that improper use or storage caused the bat to fail. When they give in they may first try to pro-rate the bat and get you to pay some charge for a replacement.Being insistent will usually get you a new replacement bat.

Way back when, metal bats were touted for durability. Now they are touted for safety, extra pop and being light weight.

I let the HS team take care of the metal bats for son's use. I buy wood bats. And he does use it during some games.

As for the NCAA debate, just take a look at the logo on the left shoulder and it will answer the question, why doesn't the NCAA take the lead?

I agree about wood. I also wanted to mention that I have had nothing but good experiences with the folks at DeMarini. I have returned one of their wood composite bats (knob came off after about a month of use) and one of the Voodoo bats (dented so bad that umpires would not let the bat be used). In both instances, a new bat appeared in the mail fairly quickly and with no argument. We have bought another four or five of their bats which did not have any problems.

Using the term junk and Louisville Slugger in the same sentence is something I never imagined doing, being a young child of the 60's.

It would be neat if the youth leagues and high schools took the lead in mandating wood bats. Then it would be funny because the only remaining governing body left with metal would be the NCAA.

They would probably love for that to happen so they wouldn't be the bad guys anymore.

I disagree that the game was MEANT to be played with wood bats. Sounds good but that logic won't solve your problem. If that’s true then that logic would have to apply to ALL aspects of the games even down to ringing the bell and wool uniforms. In my opinion there are only two practical points in reverting back to the use of the wood bat. Safety and economics. They have tried the safety angle and it was countered by those with a vested interest in promoting the sale of aluminum bats by agreeing to reduce the speed of the batted ball off and aluminum bat with the weight/length ratios and the BESR. On the economics side --- The responsibility has to rest on those that purchase the $329.00 (plus shipping) LS Exogrids and comparable bats. As long as parents and coaches continue to pour that kind of money into the bat manufacture’s coffers then those manufactures will continue to promote, lobby, develop, defend, and sell your son those aluminum rocket launchers. I was as guilty as the next person when my son swung aluminum because I was responsible to give my son the edge when he stepped into the batter’s box. He was a two way player so he also took the mound against the gorilla type ball players in the SEC but that didn’t matter to him. He wanted that edge by having the best bat.

A basic fundamental of economics if by stopping the demand you stop the supply! You want aluminum off the shelf? Coaches and parents and youth baseball organizations have to quit buying them!
Fungo

quote:

Originally posted by Fungo:
--- The responsibility has to rest on those that purchase the $329.00 (plus shipping) LS Exogrids and comparable bats. As long as parents and coaches continue to pour that kind of money into the bat manufacture’s coffers then those manufactures will continue to promote, lobby, develop, defend, and sell your son those aluminum rocket launchers. I was as guilty as the next person when my son swung aluminum because I was responsible to give my son the edge when he stepped into the batter’s box. You have to quit buying them!
Fungo

*********** trapped we are*************

My son tells me he will play the balance of the season with wood, and an older model metal he has. His wish is my command.

We need a Bat czar to lead us in our battle against the scourge of the metal bat!

Fungo's last sentence in his post reminded me of our nation's effort to rid our society of dangerous and illegal drugs...with or without a Drug czar, our effort has not eliminated the problem.

The same logic can be applied to our efforts to switch from aluminum to wood bats.

I will say that the nice folks within the drug cartels are more difficult to deal with than those pesky manufacturers' lobbyists...one totally disobeys the law and the other merely twists it out of shape...notice I didn't state which one does what!



BTW OLDSLUGGER8...I'm real curious...I know what your son's favorite bat is, but what was your grandmother's favorite pie?

quote:

Originally posted by gotwood4sale:

BTW OLDSLUGGER8...I'm real curious...I know what your son's favorite bat is, but what was your grandmother's favorite pie?

34" MAPLE XBAT WALNUT/BLACK-personalized of course, and Pineapple Meringue. She was quite the baker!!

As stated. we can't blame the suppliers and manufacturers of products that people continue to buy and make the sale and distribution profitable.

Baseball manufacturers were quick to make the rubber psuedo baseball when T ball leagues started using tennis balls.

Change starts at the grass roots, barber shop chair level and grows from there.

There are some places in the NCAA where the metal bat doesn't rule. . .check out the Great Lakes Valley Conference, D2, wooden bats required for all conference games. Perhaps if more conferences started mandating it, things would change. I can tell you that the fact that these guys play in a "wooden bat" conference has my son quite interested in their schools!

Maybe somebody is better versed on the history of aluminum bat use vs. wooden bat use. I googled the question and one of the first items that popped up was this story about a high school player.


http://www.helenair.com/articles/2006/06/18/helena_life/c01061806_03.txt


I think the prices for the metal bats are insane. The lose their ping way too soon in some instances. After a season, some of these bats just don't produce the same results.

quote:

I was as guilty as the next person when my son swung aluminum because I was responsible to give my son the edge when he stepped into the batter’s box.

Right or wrong and no offense to Fungo, that's it in a nutshell. Unless it's a league or some other type of mandate, parents will continue to provide the best for their kids. If "little Johnny" gets it then so does "little Bobby".

As the saying goes, "D A M N the torpedoes, full speed ahead"!

My son the pitcher loves to throw at wood bats, me the college baseball fan enjoys watching the offensive college game that is a result of the metal bat. Look at the College summer Leagues that use wood bats and I think you will find that batting averages fall on average a good 50 points in most cases from the college season numbers. That is at least my look at it from Northwoods numbers. With that same thought, wood bats at the HS level would further contribute to the decline in participation numbers due to a lack in productivity. At this point I think we are being very "American" by focusing only on the economic impact.

Only the cream moves on to the professional level and even those batting numbers drop significantly from their college numbers even in the minors. As far as those who say bats should be wood accross the board is not looking at other sports that make a change at the pro level.

Larger goal posts in pro football
Different size footballs in the pros
Longer 3 pt line in pro basketball
Different bats in baseball

....and the list of differences goes on.

I'm with gotwood4sale. Maybe the Bat Czar could start spraying Paraquat on all those aluminum, scandium, and eXo forests in Kentucky. How else will we ever hope to eradicate the source of all this evil? Legalizing it sure hasn’t worked!!!

How about a new ad campaign for Louisville Slugger? I can see it now….“This is your game on metal,” with a picture of a pimply-faced kid holding a small Little League trophy looking up at, “This is your game on wood,” with Paul Konerko leaning on his Slugger and holding the world series trophy.

On the other hand, wood bat tourneys are a good place to start. With the rather notable exceptions of the CWS and CMWS, the very best amateur championships in the country are wood bat. We could all do a little by supporting WB tourneys & leagues over metal. My son played in one last week, and what a pleasure it was to see and hear pingless baseball. I saw nine games and only two broken bats. Most players would have no problem getting through a season with two or three bats and less than $300 worth of batting equipment.

Save the aluminum for beer cans and wrapping up your leftovers. Melt the bats!

Hi Folks,

First let me preface my remarks by saying I am one of the "oldtimers" who played a lot of baseball with wooden bats. My dad was very popular in my neighborhood for putting screws into the bats we cracked and then taping them up and shipping us back of the the school field to play.

The is no doubt though, hearing the sound of a baseball hit solidly by a wooden bat (with no screws...lol) is soooooo sweet.

30 years later....

When my son started LL, we bought him a good Easton bat, somewhere around $80 to $90 daooler if memory serves. With his growth and moving from LL to AAU to HS/Legion, I have spent move $$ on bats than I care to remember. The past few years, we have decided to try to cut the cost a bit by not purchasing this years top of the line bat, but buying one of the previous years high end bats in the late winter at a sale price. (Easton Havoc for $119 this year, when it was 189 to 209 last season).

I am curious if many of you have run into this issue over the years as well. We have always made sure our son has had very good if not top of the line equipment to play baseball with. Along the way though, we have encountered players who did not have their own equipment, and being a good teammate, my son would let them use his. I really do not have a big issue with someone using my son's bat or glove if they forgot theirs or if some other problem prevented them from having their own gear.

I do how ever draw the line at other player's mistreating equipment that I have paid for. I have experienced very upright players/parents in dealing with this problem. I had one dad come right up to me and tell me he would be glad to pay for a bat his son dented. (His son had left his bat at home that day) That one was easy as the bat was still under warranty and i simply sent it back.

Unfortunately, many players and parents seem to think that if someone on the team will has good equipment, its openly available to anyone to use....and misuse. At one AAU gave a couple of years ago, one hot tempered player struck out and threw my son's bat and it bounced into the fence. I walked over and picked it up to make sure it had not been damaged, and told the kid in no uncertain terms that unless he had 200 bucks in his pocket that he better find another bat to hit with. His dad was not happy about it and told me it was no big deal, I could just send it back. I asked him if he were willing to pay for a new bat while we waited the 7 to 10 days for a new bat to be issued by the manufacturer. (Mind you this guy was president of his own company, and could have easily outfitted every kid on the team.)

I have met far too many like that character, people who could easily provide their kid with the required equipment (like a first baseman who does not own a first base mitt, but wants to use another player's glove and throw it around like used candy wrapper) but decide its ok for them to use equipment other parents have purchased and then treat it like c_rap.

Anyway....

Question....If we did return to a wood bat world, would you allow other player's to use your son's supply of bats?


I would with no issue at all, if each player agreed to replace any bats they broke. Or if a group of players decided to split the cost of purchasing the bats in the first place.

quote:

Originally posted by spizzlepop:
I saw nine games and only two broken bats.

There must have been great pitching . That is a hard number to top.

quote:

With the rather notable exceptions of the CWS and CMWS, the very best amateur championships in the country are wood bat

I think those tournaments are usually sponsored by a wood bat company. Another thought it's the perfect format to separate players who with comparable skill sets. Many scouting reports will say "hits well with wood" which is a plus tool.

quote:

Originally posted by NHFundamentalsDad:
we have decided to try to cut the cost a bit by not purchasing this years top of the line bat, but buying one of the previous years high end bats in the late winter at a sale price.

Did the same thing and it worked out just fine. We even made an agreement with our son that the difference in cost would be applied to a different equipment need that may have been passed up on earlier. A lesson in the value of a dollar.

quote:

I would with no issue at all, if each player agreed to replace any bats they broke.

That would have to be an understood agreement. It was funny because my son had no problem with others using the bat, but many passed because of those stipulations. Where we bought his bats we got a good deal if you bought a second. That second bat would be stashed in the trunk of the car.

My son prefers wood bats, elects to use them when not required in tournaments.

He told me with an aluminum bat, you kinda go up there hacking at it. With a wood bat, you deliberately try to hit it flush. What I think he is telling me is that "focus" increases.

Someone mentioned kids will initially bust wood bats until they learn to hit with them, then they barely break them as much. I feel that is from the "focus".

Baseball IS MEANT to be played with wood bats, but not wool uniforms, There is no relevance to that thinking.

What did that scout say? " did you hear how different his Ping sounds compared to the other hitters? He has that different ping sound when he hits the ball."

I hit great with wood during BP even better than with aluminum because I concentrate on hitting the ball on the sweet spot where with metal I just swing away, so I think I am going to use wood our next game and see how it goes.

The NCAA "test" for metal bats is skewed. Metal bats are tested by swinging them 66 mph, against a pitch thrown 70 mph, absurd testing numbers, and the Exit Speed of the struck ball is supposed to be the same/similar as wood.

HBO had a special and they tested using more realistic numbers-85 mph throws, and 80 mph swings, and the metal bats were waaaay over wooden bats, with balls exiting at speeds approaching 110 mph, a speed to which no human being can physically react.

The theory is correct but the test is skewed. Realistic testing could help a lot, but I'd bet the bat manufacturers would have a cow.

Reminds one of the book about Corvairs by Ralph Nader years ago - "Unsafe at Any Speed".

quote:

The NCAA "test" for metal bats is skewed

Hokieone,
I think that should read...
The bat manufacture sponsored NCAA "test" for metal bats is skewed

I am a wood bat proponent and was just speaking with a man on this subject last night.

He broght up a very good point that kind of changed my thinking a little. I dont know the accuracy of this but he said. 40,000 trees a year are cut down to provide bats to MLB and MiLB. If that's true and you added colleges and high schools to that, it would be devastating.

What do you guys/ladies think about composite bats?

Even the "oldmans" baseball leagues, like Roy Hobbs went to wooden bats. They actually changed the year after the season I got whacked on the mound.

At 42 at the time, I was pitching in a tournament and some guy hits a liner that came back so fast that I only able to block it, right off my shattered left wrist.

I think of that every time I ask myself why my son, who was a pretty good pitcher, gave up that aspect of the game. It was fun to watch him pitch, but with some of the shots hit off those metal bats, I feel better he is in the outfield.

With regards to the usage of natural resources, i.e trees. Ask anyone who drives around the country about the vast expanses of unused land, nice spots where trees can grow. In addition, if 40,000 trees are used to supply baseball bats, than imagine how many are used in home construction, furniture making, yadayadayada.

I see your point, but proper forestry management solves the usage issue quite neatly.

Back to wood vs. metal:

When an 8 year old little league coach needs an L screen to pitch BP, ?????????

rz1,

Yes, We have adopted the 2nd bat deal here too. Especially since our HS season starts around April 15. Not too many 60+ degree days here in April....lol.

Also yes to the idea of letting other use the gear if they agree to simple terms about it.
Most have no issues, but it seems like there is always someone who asks why they should have to pay if they damage it. Even had one parent tell me "what difference does it make, it will dent sooner or later anyway, right?" I tried very hard not to laugh, and just asked him why he did not buy a bat for his son. I was not surprised when the response of "I have never had to buy him a bat, he always uses someone else's" came out his mouth. I just figured at that point there was no sense trying to explain it to him.

wvmtner:

I'm wondering what you mean by saying it would be "devastating" to add the demand for wood from requiring colleges and high schools to use wood bats.

Wood products are a renewable resource. Timber is a crop just like corn or wheat, only with a longer harvest period. If there is more demand for wood, then there will be more trees planted and harvested.

So if you hate trees, reduce demand for wood products and people will grow fewer trees.

If you like trees, use lots of paper and other wood products, and we will have more trees.

Composite bats are an idea. I think a highly laminated compressed wood chip or saw dust bat would be far more durable and have fewer disadvantages than natural wooden bats.

Dissimilar materials as in two part bats seem like an accident waiting to happen. When they fail, they either have to shatter or separate into parts.

quote:

Wood products are a renewable resource. Timber is a crop just like corn or wheat, only with a longer harvest period

It would take 25 years to gear up and even start a proactive growing program to convert to wood across the board. It would be an economic nightmare with problems ranging from land use/sale, quality control, to the "tree huggers" trying to save a certain bug that lives in the Maple tree. Ask the xmas tree farmer his rate of return on growing trees. Thats why the artificial tree now "decks the halls".

My son hits with wood in the off-season (fall league & winter workouts) and I think he enjoys it. This summer, we played a DH and the coach asked if we'd use wood since the field was a bit small so our players went scrambling to get bats. Most did anyway. The ones who didn't buy a bat, used other player's bats....most of them were broken by the end of game 2 including my son's 2 day old bat. Was it replaced by the player who broke it? Nope. Did the father offer? Nope. Will I allow him to loan one in the future? Nope. If you're a player on a team that doesn't provide all of the equipment (bats), you'd better be prepared to come play and that means bring your own bat. Now if for some reason a player lost/broke/forgot a bat....that's different.

The "tree devastation" arguement doesn't hold water. Bat manufacturers will (what's the technical word Woodrow?)....replant most likely twice as many tress as they cut down. So they'll actually be improving the invironment.

Beezer,

Having grown up in Maine in a paper mill town, I'd love to see all of baseball go back to wood. It would help out the economy of a lot of areas in the country where the wood/timber industry once reigned supreme.


Anyone remember their first wood bat? My was a 28" Vada Pinson model when I was 8.

28" Adirondak.

I have also seen an EXO bat break in normal, game use. A fastball on the fists popped open the handle like a can of biscuits. It was brand spanking new at the time.

If nothing else, maybe we can alert the world to this one bat as a FARCE. $330 and it breaks on first use? What a scam!

i have an older son that played in a wood bat league,i spent a few bucks on bats.and was upset by it until i remembered what an aluminum cost.but, as with everything the bat makers have to much money to lobby.thanks to us.they would more than likley talk us into a 199 dollar wood bat.but i agree the wood bat needs a come back.it's kind of funny that with all the high tech bs we have today. clothes smell better hung on the line,food taste better on charcoal and hits sound better off a wood bat.

I want to chime in as well, specifically on the EXO.

I have no empirical evidence, but a player on our HS team had one the ball really did see to jump off the bat, compared to other bats. My son even used it for some ABs and saw the same result.

BAD NEWS: This players EXO broke not once, but TWICE during a 25 game HS season.

GOOD NEWS: LS replaced the bat both times, no questions asked, even overnighting the bat on the first time.

Based on our local experience, as well as other's comments here, there appears to be a design flaw and LS knows it.......

quote:

I think those tournaments are usually sponsored by a wood bat company.

RZ- Not sure I understand your point here. All of the big ones have sponsors, equipment and otherwise, but the best that I've been to (I'm talking East Cobb and Jupiter events) are not bat promotions by any means. WWBA doesn't profit from the sale of wood. Gotwood4sale may be the only one here who stands to change tax brackets if metal went away. (JK there Mr.4sale)

You are surely right about separating talent though. The creme always rises to the top anyway. Good hitters become better hitters with wood. Pitchers get better. The game gets better too. Let us not get carried away with offense. A 6-4 game is plenty of offense in baseball. A 2-1 pitchers duel is mostly a thing of beauty. But a 19-17 shootout is just plain offensive in my book.

I don't agree that HS participation would drop with wood. Baseball players love the game more than the equipment. Pride is a factor yes, but so is integrity. They'll play if it's fair, as long as they have a chance to win.