I was "SHOW UP FIVE MINUTES AFTER GAME STARTS GUY" for all sports. Kept me from working the chains, running the clock, scoreboard or coaching first base.
I was the Yelp Guy..... I developed the valuable skill of finding the best restaurants near the venues our travel team visited. Turned into kind of a pied piper because of proven success...... with the weight gain to prove it.
@Velo From The Stretch posted:I was the Yelp Guy..... I developed the valuable skill of finding the best restaurants near the venues our travel team visited. Turned into kind of a pied piper because of proven success...... with the weight gain to prove it.
that is vital, and not within this "toxic" discussion at all! Yelp guy plays a vital role (unless you're happy with warmed over hotdogs from the snack shack)
This post has made me aware that throughout HS baseball there are WAY TOO many parents involved in the game. I never let a parent touch the book/gamechanger when I was coaching. Had two geniuses who read the rule book multiple times who oversaw it with my input. I would say during a game that was an error or a hit. A lot of parents do not know the game and if they do there are still too many calls that need to be made by someone other than a parent.
@adbono posted:Teaching is the #1 thing missing in HS baseball. Not enough HS coaches know the game well enough to teach it. I see it all the time and I can’t stand it - and it’s not like the travel ball scene is a lot better in that regard. Not much teaching going on there either. Scouting agencies (PG, PBR, etc.) add to the problem by promoting measurables as the means to getting recruited (which is bullsh$t) and by hyping kids above their level of ability. All that makes kids less teachable.
Some kids learn how to play to the measurables. I know a kid whose father left no dollar unspent developing his measurables. If the kid walked in a room you would think, “That’s a ball player!” just on his physical appearance.
But I spent three years coaching him. Then I watched him for two years playing 17u ball with my son. My son discreetly called him LOB to another teammate who didn’t care for the kid. One time after a game my son told me to call him Gilligan. The kid stranded him on an island (second base) three times. The kid shined in measurables. But he didn’t deliver against top pitching in games.
The kid was recruited by a top ranked program. The well known coach said the kid might become his top recruit ever. In a polite way I asked Jerry Ford his opinion. Jerry was awed by the kid.
I thought to myself, “What do they see that I don’t? I know these men are the experts. What am I missing?”
The kid was handed a starting position for three seasons. All three years he lost it by the beginning of conference play. He was the ultimate showcase player.
When I did the box score, stats and the first draft of the game article I had to get it to the coach by 9pm so he could get the information to the newspaper sports editor by 10pm. At least one game per week as soon as I got the box score on the website I would receive emails from a certain parents. They called until I told them I screen calls after 9pm on game days.
@adbono posted:I think it’s a huge mistake for any coach to let a parent of any player be in charge of GC or the official scorebook. Besides being biased, most parents don’t know the rules well enough to be an official scorekeeper. Parents that are overly enthusiastic about keeping the book almost always have a (not so) hidden agenda. It becomes evident as the season evolves and it always creates hard feelings that are needless.
I completely agree, which is why I Gamechange ALL three of my kids' games, even the streamed games from their (very) distant D3 schools.
After all, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3xcybdis1k
Also, I dig this up every now and then. If you haven't seen it, enjoy. If you have seen it, enjoy anyway. Sorta on topic.
@smokeminside posted:Also, I dig this up every now and then. If you haven't seen it, enjoy. If you have seen it, enjoy anyway. Sorta on topic.
Omg I was a “run, run” and a “don’t you cry 1,2,3”
dead 😭😭
@RJM posted:I know a kid whose father left no dollar unspent developing his measurables.
* * *I thought to myself, “What do they see that I don’t? I know these men are the experts. What am I missing?”
The kid was handed a starting position for three seasons. All three years he lost it by the beginning of conference play. He was the ultimate showcase player.
hmm... You think that it was just that he was a great showcase player or did someone at PG (not Ford of course) get caught up in the "leaving no dollar unspent part"? I think you can read into this what I'm saying without me saying it.
@KennieProton posted:hmm... You think that it was just that he was a great showcase player or did someone at PG (not Ford of course) get caught up in the "leaving no dollar unspent part"? I think you can read into this what I'm saying without me saying it.
You’re leaving out a highly respected and very successful college coach got caught up in the hype.
The no dollar left unspent comment wasn’t about PG. it was more about all the individual training. The kid was trained to look good at individual showcases.
I think this is a good opporunity to bring back this oldy but Goody.
Now, that's the short version - there is a Golden Thread with 380 responses, here:
We had a mom that did GC for son's showcase team a few years ago...when her son pitched, everything was an error...one time a ball was destroyed off the right center field wall, absolute missile, that she scored an error because she said the outfielders didnt get a good jump on it....on the flip side, she felt her son, when batting, was in competition against the better hitters...my son came up and hit one off the left field wall with the bases loaded and scored 3 runs. She counted it as an error saying the left fielder should have caught it...needless to say by the end of the season the parents were literally approaching her during the game and it was starting to get loud...the head coach really didnt do much about it
@RJM posted:You’re leaving out a highly respected and very successful college coach got caught up in the hype.
You re correct but is that kid at the P5 under the highly respected coach with a scholarship looking good if he didn't get ranked based on those numbers? It's a 50/50 issue .IMO
@KennieProton posted:You re correct but is that kid at the P5 under the highly respected coach with a scholarship looking good if he didn't get ranked based on those numbers? It's a 50/50 issue .IMO
The kid went to showcases and looked like a stud. He earned the numbers looking great. Then in team tournament games he didn’t look great against high end pitching. But mechanically he looked great. According to a high school teammate the kid acclimated big stats beating up on Little Sisters of Mercy pitching while the top teams neutralized him.
My son used sixty training to max his sixty time. It’s possible to train to an event. I wanted coaches to notice his speed and watch to see if he could hit. But can a player replicate it in a competitive game?
What about the “C’mon Kiddddd” , “Choke up” , “Atta way” , “2 strike drill” , “Oppo” , “You’re okay”, “Just Throw Strikes” parent?
I am the hide far from the team parent. It can be toxic too
As I work on kid #3s baseball "career", I am the 'far away from everyone else' guy also. Embarrassingly I did a few variations of some of those "toxic" things early in my sports parenting. I still remember being so pissed at this one GC dad who marked a ball through the wickets and a dropped pop fly in the same game as non-errors for his kid. Now I can give a shit. We learn and grow in life.
Look in the mirror. Hitters use the mirror to record their swing in their mind. It tells all!
Bob
Was coach/parent and stat guy over the years when requested. Never a HC although I was treasurer for a couple of travel groups that went to Cooperstown and Disney among other places...great family time.
Every coach I ever dealt with told me they enjoyed working with me because they found it so refreshing to talk to someone that did not have the rose colored glasses regarding my own or any other kid. They used to ask me about their own kids and never pulled a punch. Watched a couple of times when people came at the coach and they used my comments on their own kid to go head on with growler. It often deflected the conversation away from they weakness of the complainers son by making the coach real bout his own son. Much harder to grind on someone that actually gets it.
I also used to tell parents that complained about coaches son playing more SS that he was putting in a 1,000 hours a year to operate the team. If it was a coin flip on SS and he played his kid - he had bought that right with his time. That shut up a bunch of drop off parents over the years.
It was the one thing I never understood as a parent was that people had so much difficulty seeing their kids for what they were instead of what they wanted them to be. Once when the kids were paired off doing T work I walked over to one of the busy body Mom types. I said to her please watch your son....he took 12/15 swings. Total crap, spinning, flying open just going through the motions. My son was picking his balls from the net. When it was his turn he took 12 full concentration, working form swings. When it was over I said to the mother - neither of those kids is going to be a HS baseball player....one because he won't be big enough and the other because he doesn't care.
She stood there with her mouth wide open and finally asked "How can you fix this?" My response was "Not my Kid - I have a flat spot on my head from banging it on the wall with him. He just rolls his eyes at me" I said watch......went over and said hey B you should put some more into those swings it'll help in games. He smiled nodded and said yes sir as sweet as can be. Then took 12 more shitty swings looking at me after each one. Would anyone be surprised he ended up selling cars on his Dad's lot? I was not.
I got dozens of these kind of things. We have such influence over our kids and IMO by simply being truthful about expectations and results are the best two components of doing the job well.
I've seen way too many parents (yes moms too!) screaming, threatening and fighting with umps/refs/coaches/other parents. I am also fortunate I witnessed kids to grow to be awesome teens/adults and gives me hope of our future. You're all welcome to join me anytime for a cold refreshment in the drama free zone...in an outfield far far away.
@RJM posted:Some kids learn how to play to the measurables. I know a kid whose father left no dollar unspent developing his measurables. If the kid walked in a room you would think, “That’s a ball player!” just on his physical appearance.
He was the ultimate showcase player.
I remember seeing a few of these during son's recruiting journey. During BP, player would take "man hacks" and occasionally lauch a couple over the fence. Then during showcase game go 0-4 K,K,K,K. I'm sure there were whispers with those with the clipboards saying, "Oh, but we can teach him plate discipline and a better approach."
@Ripken Fan posted:I remember seeing a few of these during son's recruiting journey. During BP, player would take "man hacks" and occasionally lauch a couple over the fence. Then during showcase game go 0-4 K,K,K,K. I'm sure there were whispers with those with the clipboards saying, "Oh, but we can teach him plate discipline and a better approach."
What do you guys think this kid’s dad could have done different? My guess is the real issue was mental and probably stemmed from a helicopter dad. Kid obviously had some tools that couldn’t be overlooked, but probably crumbled under pressure that was only worsened when dad was there.
Coached one like this a few years back and it always bothered me because kid was actually really good, just dad wouldn’t get out of the way. I could tell that baseball had stopped being fun, but the dad never got the message.
I've seen so many of these guys in showcases. They are told by coaches and parents to swing for the fence and if they can hit them out then like is said the coaches say they can fix the problems. College and pro scouts think if you throw it fast enough they can get your control in line and if you hit it far enough they can make you a contact hitter. Parents buy into it and you have showcase kids like the showcase shortstops that can round every ball hit to them in a showcase but can't catch a cold when it is game time. They look pretty but can't put it into action in games.
I realize some make it because some coaches are that good but most don't.
During the 400 Area Code tryouts, the "showcase" actors were very easy to ID. The Pro Scouts enjoyed their performances and their remarks could be a book on how to look "bad" as they acted their role presented by parent and or advisor.
Bob
@ReluctantO'sFan posted:What do you guys think this kid’s dad could have done different? My guess is the real issue was mental and probably stemmed from a helicopter dad. Kid obviously had some tools that couldn’t be overlooked, but probably crumbled under pressure that was only worsened when dad was there.
Coached one like this a few years back and it always bothered me because kid was actually really good, just dad wouldn’t get out of the way. I could tell that baseball had stopped being fun, but the dad never got the message.
Or maybe the kid just didn't have the talent to barrel-up a ball against good pitching.
@2022NYC posted:I've seen way too many parents (yes moms too!) screaming, threatening and fighting with umps/refs/coaches/other parents. I am also fortunate I witnessed kids to grow to be awesome teens/adults and gives me hope of our future. You're all welcome to join me anytime for a cold refreshment in the drama free zone...in an outfield far far away.
Hoops parents are the absolute worst when it comes to parents fighting. I've seen a handful of tournaments either stopped or paused for law enforcement to break up major brawls. And it is mostly the moms that start it.
@Smitty28 posted:Or maybe the kid just didn't have the talent to barrel-up a ball against good pitching.
I kinda understand you statement, but it doesn’t really hold true from my experience. The kid that was mentioned had enough talent to square up as much as any other kid on his team. What he probably lacked was the self confidence to do so when the game was on the line.
Earlier in this thread it was portrayed in a negative light that due to him and his father chasing numbers at showcases that it somehow had a negative effect on his game time performances? My question that I posed was if this is being held as true what do you guys think they could have done differently to obtain a 6th tool?
@ReluctantO'sFan posted:I kinda understand you statement, but it doesn’t really hold true from my experience. The kid that was mentioned had enough talent to square up as much as any other kid on his team. What he probably lacked was the self confidence to do so when the game was on the line.
Earlier in this thread it was portrayed in a negative light that due to him and his father chasing numbers at showcases that it somehow had a negative effect on his game time performances? My question that I posed was if this is being held as true what do you guys think they could have done differently to obtain a 6th tool?
My point is that lots of players look good against weaker competition or in the batting cage. Maybe they also have great numbers. But actually being able to square up a baseball against good pitching is the most important thing, and is arguably the least talked-about topic here and elsewhere on the internet. It's not something a dad can fix and it's not necessarily about choking or nerves.
@Smitty28 Like I said before, I get your premise but your response is too overly generalized and really subjective. It also completely overlooks the elephant in the room. You are not giving the mental side of sports enough credit. Good dads can help a their kids with this.
ps We were talking about a kid that went D1 then drafted into the minors. He could square the dam ball up to say the least
@ReluctantO'sFan posted:@Smitty28 Like I said before, I get your premise but your response is too overly generalized and really subjective. It also completely overlooks the elephant in the room. You are not giving the mental side of sports enough credit. Good dads can help a their kids with this.
ps We were talking about a kid that went D1 then drafted into the minors. He could square the dam ball up to say the least
Of course I'm generalizing because this was a general discussion about kids choking or not coming through under pressure. You happened to bring up a specific example, fair enough, but I think my premise still holds - far more kids fail because lack of talent than mental issues. That's kind of the nature of the game but many dads can't accept that.
@TerribleBPthrower posted:Hoops parents are the absolute worst when it comes to parents fighting. I've seen a handful of tournaments either stopped or paused for law enforcement to break up major brawls. And it is mostly the moms that start it.
You ain’t seen nuthin until you experience hockey parents. Once in a while a parent dies in a fight.
On a separate note hockey is one of the reasons I’ve ever bought into baseball is becoming an elitist sport for financially well of families. Hockey is brutally expensive. A lot of middle income families find a way. Hockey is a very blue collar sport.
@Smitty28 posted:Of course I'm generalizing because this was a general discussion about kids choking or not coming through under pressure. You happened to bring up a specific example, fair enough, but I think my premise still holds - far more kids fail because lack of talent than mental issues. That's kind of the nature of the game but many dads can't accept that.
Gotcha. Big picture most kids are overrated and parents are the worst judges of talent. Completely agree with that logic, but let’s think a little further into the question. What about the kid that can post numbers that most others can’t touch. That’s after all what my original question was based on. Whether someone wants to believe it or not you can’t post legit numbers and not be talented/gifted/etc.... now when these kids struggle they fail not because of some lack of innate talent, but because of an unaddressed mental issue. And I’ll stand by that statement.
My question (reworded) was if the dad spending all his money chasing numbers at showcases was the wrong approach what could the dad have done differently that would have served the kid better?
My bet is that there are those reading this that could use the info
@ReluctantO'sFan that's the million dollar question. Literally.
I agree that some parents can become too wrapped up in their kids sports career, often overemphasizing the wrong things (metrics, rankings, "who's there watching") instead of the things that really matter (putting in the work, continuous improvement of both skills and your body, discipline, mental toughness). This puts ridiculous pressure on the kid and the "chasing" can and does result in bad mechanics (if you are only hitting for EV or throwing for velocity), injury or burn out. Others, frankly, thrive in those circumstances. However, I think the answer to your question is much more complicated than that. No matter what sport it is, to play it at the highest levels, you HAVE TO LOVE IT. Plus you have to both have some natural ability and an insane work ethic. A huge percentage of your time it's a job. How many people can push through all of the not fun parts (early lifts, press conferences, slumps, stinky roommates, injuries, criticism--both justified and ignorant) to get to the part that they love and perform to their ability? I also think at the highest level you have young men who are putting that pressure on themselves--that comes with the territory. It's quite a lot to ask and it's not easy. So in my mind, when you add the external pressure of college/pro/etc. scouts watching, some guys struggle to really show well.
In my opinion, I think the best approach is to help the boys focus on the things they can control. Work on their game and try not to worry overmuch about the outside noise. Most importantly, let them lead the process. Make sure it's their dream they are chasing, not yours.
@ReluctantO'sFan posted:Gotcha. Big picture most kids are overrated and parents are the worst judges of talent. Completely agree with that logic, but let’s think a little further into the question. What about the kid that can post numbers that most others can’t touch. That’s after all what my original question was based on. Whether someone wants to believe it or not you can’t post legit numbers and not be talented/gifted/etc.... now when these kids struggle they fail not because of some lack of innate talent, but because of an unaddressed mental issue. And I’ll stand by that statement.
My question (reworded) was if the dad spending all his money chasing numbers at showcases was the wrong approach what could the dad have done differently that would have served the kid better?
My bet is that there are those reading this that could use the info
I'll be "GIVES GENERALIZED ADVICE AND LOGS OFF FOR A FEW DAYS GUY"
Here they are in the order of cost.
FREE - Get BFS (bigger, faster, stronger).
COSTS SOME - Practice a lot. Throw a lot. Swing a lot. Play a lot.
COSTS SOME MORE - Play the best competition you can.
COSTS MOREST - Get good skills coaching.
Showcases give the least return on the dollar, IMO. Although bad skill coaching can come close.
@PTWood 💪 thanks for the read. Wishing your boy all the success, but I can tell we’re it comes from
@Go44dad posted:I'll be "GIVES GENERALIZED ADVICE AND LOGS OFF FOR A FEW DAYS GUY"
Here they are in the order of cost.
FREE - Get BFS (bigger, faster, stronger).
COSTS SOME - Practice a lot. Throw a lot. Swing a lot. Play a lot.
COSTS SOME MORE - Play the best competition you can.
COSTS MOREST - Get good skills coaching.
Showcases give the least return on the dollar, IMO. Although bad skill coaching can come close.
I do shift work in the ER so I can’t be on all the time, and why are you screaming 🤨 also what does any of this have to do with the mental side of the game?
@ReluctantO'sFan posted:My question (reworded) was if the dad spending all his money chasing numbers at showcases was the wrong approach what could the dad have done differently that would have served the kid better?
My bet is that there are those reading this that could use the info
My son played on teams where he was the best kid on the field, and other teams where he was middle (or lower) of the pack. He tended to play best when he was with the better teams. He was more relaxed, felt lower expectations on him, and didn't try to do too much. Being the best kid on the field can make a kid feel he has to deliver dingers every time up, which we all know doesn't work. If I was that kids dad for a day I'd tell him to focus on hitting line drives to the right of 2nd base and have fun.
@ReluctantO'sFan posted:I do shift work in the ER so I can’t be on all the time, and why are you screaming 🤨 also what does any of this have to do with the mental side of the game?
The guy who started the post was screaming. Thought he might not hear me if I didn't scream back. 
I was answering this specific question you posted...
"My question (reworded) was if the dad spending all his money chasing numbers at showcases was the wrong approach what could the dad have done differently that would have served the kid better?"