Did I suggest he threw 102 from coaching? read up on his story. It is an incredible dynamic of events starting at about 7 years old. I swear. Incredible
StrainedOblique posted:Steve A. posted:He is a "phenom," no doubt. "Phenom: a person who is outstandingly talented or admired. Especially an up and comer." If you remove the parents, Coaching & support and the kids desire and will, you would never have heard his name. He would be the big, raw kid throwing 88 in HS.
In addition. 6'4" & athletically gifted in HS is not all that uncommon. You are suggesting that the arm was a magical gift from heaven. I disagree. It was there to be cultivated as are many that go uncultivated. The circumstances aligned for him & he has taken full advantage, to his great credit.
This is incorrect. Pitching lessons by the best guys available might give you maybe a 3-4 mph jump...maybe . More like 2 mph. A stride adjustment . Maybe some weighted balls , Long toss. But you do not throw 102 from coaching ......That notion is absolutely incorrect.
No, coaching can absolutely do it! I can get ANY kid to 102mph with my patented, secret weighted ball/long toss/belt program. I GUARANTEE it! 11 yo Joey from Baltimore was throwing 45mph when he came to me. By the end of the summer he was SITTING 101mph!!! Imagine. This can be your kid! All I need is a $1,000 deposit and I ONLY charge a paltry $250/HR! That's it! A bargain when you consider the bonuses they're paying now in the draft. So, just bring him to me. I live in a van...down by the river!
Steve A. posted:Did I suggest he threw 102 from coaching? read up on his story. It is an incredible dynamic of events starting at about 7 years old. I swear. Incredible
This is what you said:
" If you remove the parents, Coaching & support and the kids desire and will, you would never have heard his name. He would be the big, raw kid throwing 88 in HS"
This is incorrect . And yes I read the article. My son who is currently a NCCA D1 LHP played w/ Hunter '14 thru '16 ......I know the player. Very well
roothog66 posted:StrainedOblique posted:Steve A. posted:He is a "phenom," no doubt. "Phenom: a person who is outstandingly talented or admired. Especially an up and comer." If you remove the parents, Coaching & support and the kids desire and will, you would never have heard his name. He would be the big, raw kid throwing 88 in HS.
In addition. 6'4" & athletically gifted in HS is not all that uncommon. You are suggesting that the arm was a magical gift from heaven. I disagree. It was there to be cultivated as are many that go uncultivated. The circumstances aligned for him & he has taken full advantage, to his great credit.
This is incorrect. Pitching lessons by the best guys available might give you maybe a 3-4 mph jump...maybe . More like 2 mph. A stride adjustment . Maybe some weighted balls , Long toss. But you do not throw 102 from coaching ......That notion is absolutely incorrect.
No, coaching can absolutely do it! I can get ANY kid to 102mph with my patented, secret weighted ball/long toss/belt program. I GUARANTEE it! 11 yo Joey from Baltimore was throwing 45mph when he came to me. By the end of the summer he was SITTING 101mph!!! Imagine. This can be your kid! All I need is a $1,000 deposit and I ONLY charge a paltry $250/HR! That's it! A bargain when you consider the bonuses they're paying now in the draft. So, just bring him to me. I live in a van...down by the river!
Is that you Kyle B??
StrainedOblique posted:Steve A. posted:Did I suggest he threw 102 from coaching? read up on his story. It is an incredible dynamic of events starting at about 7 years old. I swear. Incredible
This is what you said:
" If you remove the parents, Coaching & support and the kids desire and will, you would never have heard his name. He would be the big, raw kid throwing 88 in HS"
This is incorrect . And yes I read the article. My son who is currently a NCCA D1 LHP played w/ Hunter '14 thru '16 ......I know the player. Very well
So you are basically telling me that you can toss all of the kids training, Woolforth, extra work, parents & support & he would still be at 102 by simply waking up in the morning & going to practice? Is this what you are suggesting?
One of the things I find impressive about Greene is that he was topping out at 92 as a rising junior (range of 86 - 92; see https://www.perfectgame.org/Pl...ofile.aspx?ID=353210) -- that's a high number, sure, but there are quite a few kids like that every year-- and he added 10 mph in the subsequent 18 months! Obviously not satisfied with being very good; trying, instead, to be great.
Steve A. posted:StrainedOblique posted:Steve A. posted:Did I suggest he threw 102 from coaching? read up on his story. It is an incredible dynamic of events starting at about 7 years old. I swear. Incredible
This is what you said:
" If you remove the parents, Coaching & support and the kids desire and will, you would never have heard his name. He would be the big, raw kid throwing 88 in HS"
This is incorrect . And yes I read the article. My son who is currently a NCCA D1 LHP played w/ Hunter '14 thru '16 ......I know the player. Very well
So you are basically telling me that you can toss all of the kids training, Woolforth, extra work, parents & support & he would still be at 102 by simply waking up in the morning & going to practice? Is this what you are suggesting?
What I'm saying is that he's naturally gifted. An amazing talent. A legit 2 way guy at the NCAA level....Pro ball's biggest problem with him is figuring out 'How much' and whether he goes as a pitcher or hitter.
Parents and coaches don't make those guys. They help . But they do not create that
We have had a chance to get to know Hunter very well. He is the total package, very unusual in a very good way.
His ceiling is extremely high and his chances of reaching it are excellent. Is he a natural? Absolutely! Is he a hard worker and dedicated? Absolutely! Does he come from a great family? You bet! His makeup is off the charts.
I hope he becomes the superstar we think he will be. He is going to be really good for baseball. Hoping the Twins pick him with the first pick. If so, he will be in Cedar Rapids playing at Perfect Game Field, probably next year.
2019Dad posted:One of the things I find impressive about Greene is that he was topping out at 92 as a rising junior (range of 86 - 92; see https://www.perfectgame.org/Pl...ofile.aspx?ID=353210) -- that's a high number, sure, but there are quite a few kids like that every year-- and he added 10 mph in the subsequent 18 months! Obviously not satisfied with being very good; trying, instead, to be great.
He ate Cheerios for those 18 months. This was the difference. Nothing to do with dynamic training, yoga or any additional effort. It was just magic. A lightning bolt also hit his right arm in the offseason.
PGStaff posted:We have had a chance to get to know Hunter very well. He is the total package, very unusual in a very good way.
His ceiling is extremely high and his chances of reaching it are excellent. Is he a natural? Absolutely! Is he a hard worker and dedicated? Absolutely! Does he come from a great family? You bet! His makeup is off the charts.
I hope he becomes the superstar we think he will be. He is going to be really good for baseball. Hoping the Twins pick him with the first pick. If so, he will be in Cedar Rapids playing at Perfect Game Field, probably next year.
.....Let the church say Amen
PGStaff posted:We have had a chance to get to know Hunter very well. He is the total package, very unusual in a very good way.
His ceiling is extremely high and his chances of reaching it are excellent. Is he a natural? Absolutely! Is he a hard worker and dedicated? Absolutely! Does he come from a great family? You bet! His makeup is off the charts.
I hope he becomes the superstar we think he will be. He is going to be really good for baseball. Hoping the Twins pick him with the first pick. If so, he will be in Cedar Rapids playing at Perfect Game Field, probably next year.
My only point is simply this. I dislike the term natural. I feel it takes away from the work & misleads people about what it really took for this kid to become who he is. If you subtract the "hard worker and dedicated; great family and makeup" from this equation, are we still talking about this kid on the cover of SI or not? Absolutely no way.
I suggest his will & makeup have put him over the top. To simply focus on his physical gifts misses the real story. That's all. You have seen enough with tremendous talent & gifts go nowhere to understand what I am talking about.
2019Dad posted:One of the things I find impressive about Greene is that he was topping out at 92 as a rising junior (range of 86 - 92; see https://www.perfectgame.org/Pl...ofile.aspx?ID=353210) -- that's a high number, sure, but there are quite a few kids like that every year-- and he added 10 mph in the subsequent 18 months! Obviously not satisfied with being very good; trying, instead, to be great.
A couple of things.
1. He is young for his class, summer of 2015 he just turned 16 and eligible to play 15U.
2. I believe that was game speed. Touching 92 in the game as an eligible 15U! Insane/ - maybe a handful of players IN THE WORLD.
3. 92 game speed, he could more than likely have let it fly in a BP and put up a higher number at that time.
4. I am guessing the 102 is from a bull pen.
5. I believe someone recently posted him cruising at 96-97 in a game.
All off the charts incredible.
I will give 2 examples & leave it for the rest to tell me how wrong I am.
Bryce Harper: A natural, right? A true phenom by any measure? Bryce Harper when asked last offseason as he trained indoors hitting with his Dad how many front toss had he hit growing up until present with his Dad like they were doing just then, put his bat on his shoulder, thought about it a minute & answered; "At least a million." When interviewer questioned that, he thought some more & said, "definitely more than a million, no exaggeration."
Mike Trout: another Natural, right? Look up who Mike trout's Dad was as a player. Jeff Trout hit .519 in Division 1 Baseball as a Sr. in College. Do you think having a Dad like that had any impact on him as a player in his development. If his dad had been Inmate # 087642 at Millville Correctional would we know who Mike trout is?
Greene threw 93 mph at the age of 14 according to this article
https://www.si.com/mlb/2017/04...ter-greene-mlb-draft
Steve A. posted:I will give 2 examples & leave it for the rest to tell me how wrong I am.
Bryce Harper: A natural, right? A true phenom by any measure? Bryce Harper when asked last offseason as he trained indoors hitting with his Dad how many front toss had he hit growing up until present with his Dad like they were doing just then, put his bat on his shoulder, thought about it a minute & answered; "At least a million." When interviewer questioned that, he thought some more & said, "definitely more than a million, no exaggeration."
Mike Trout: another Natural, right? Look up who Mike trout's Dad was as a player. Jeff Trout hit .519 in Division 1 Baseball as a Sr. in College. Do you think having a Dad like that had any impact on him as a player in his development. If his dad had been Inmate # 087642 at Millville Correctional would we know who Mike trout is?
Do you believe you could have dropped off any random adopted baby boy into those households and came out with the same outcomes?
I don't think we should take what we read as the gospel. I remember the Bryce Harper story in SI years ago. Bryce Harper, Hunter Green and others before them were extremely unique and worthy of a lot of hype. Sometimes that hype gets exaggerated to make the story even more amazing.
I wasn't at the game but our guy got Hunter at 101 in the game this spring. If I remember right he topped out around 97 at our events last year. He did put on a display winning the HR derby at Petco. I think he hit something like 7 in a row easily out of Petco which is one of the hardest places to hit HRs in MLB.
I very much believe in natural talent. At the same time I can understand Steve A's view. Talent needs to be refined in order for it to reach its potential. Natural ability alone is not enough. It has always been my belief that no one ever reaches their "full" potential. some just come much closer than others. You see there is no way of ever knowing what someone's full potential is.
So Hunter has very high potential that he was born with. He has also worked hard to reach that potential. And I think he will continue that path, knowing that he can always improve.
real green posted:Steve A. posted:I will give 2 examples & leave it for the rest to tell me how wrong I am.
Bryce Harper: A natural, right? A true phenom by any measure? Bryce Harper when asked last offseason as he trained indoors hitting with his Dad how many front toss had he hit growing up until present with his Dad like they were doing just then, put his bat on his shoulder, thought about it a minute & answered; "At least a million." When interviewer questioned that, he thought some more & said, "definitely more than a million, no exaggeration."
Mike Trout: another Natural, right? Look up who Mike trout's Dad was as a player. Jeff Trout hit .519 in Division 1 Baseball as a Sr. in College. Do you think having a Dad like that had any impact on him as a player in his development. If his dad had been Inmate # 087642 at Millville Correctional would we know who Mike trout is?
Do you believe you could have dropped off any random adopted baby boy into those households and came out with the same outcomes?
Nope. Steve A, we might know who Mike Trout is anyway if inmate #087642 at Millville was his dad, so long as someone saw his physical gifts and helped him to develop those gifts (i.e., if Jeff Trout was his neighbor/uncle/coach).
It takes these things: work ethic + natural athletic ability + head/heart for the game + luck. The kid himself can only control one of those things.
It is a fascinating question. Nature vs nurture. Given the exact same genetics without the same growing up environment, I would think Harper & Trout would still be pro players. Trout especially. Would they be superstars? Hard to say. Maybe they would have found the coaching somewhere else. Different sport but Lebron James sure didn't have a Dad that pushed him & taught him the game
To throw 100 you need both talent and hard work. There are a few guys who can throw 90 plus with just playing catch and a few push ups but those guys are very rare, most guys have to train extremely hard.
Usain bolt is super talented but he trains at least 5 hours every day. He wouldn't wun that fast if he did 5 sprints twice a week. But likewise I wouldn't run as fast if he did his training regimen.
Pitchers are athletes and athletes are both very talented and they work very hard. Harper and greene are both exceptional talents that worked very hard since they were 10.
In short of course training plays a big role, otherwise MJ and tebow would have become really great mlb players.
I find these kind of post somewhat amusing. "He hit 93 at 14" or "he hit the ball 450' at 16". You know what that means? He matured really early, nothing more. He's not going to be throwing 126 mph at 25. Look at Harper, I think I saw he hit a ball like 500+ at 15 of something like that. What's he hitting the ball now? His longest this year has been 441.
So the kid is going to make the show no doubt. Might be a HOF'er, but right now there are like 70+ pitchers hitting 100+. So it seems to me when he gets there he's going to be "another face in the crowd".
There are limits to what the human body can do. It can only throw a baseball so hard. It can only hit a baseball so far. There's a ceiling, some people just get there faster than others.
Odell Beckham Jr threw a softball, idk, 80+? I don't think I could throw a softball 60mph. He got a contract offer immediately: http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/n...eague-baseball-team/
That's crazy considering he didn't even play HS baseball. He might've played 12U baseball or family softball, or he practiced pitching for a week before that game. So yeah I think you actually have to be at least an elite athlete to cross over and immediately show some potential.
Regarding the hard work as a teenager: does that shift the ceiling of a pitcher or does it just shift the max Velo to an earlier age? Obviously many would be out of baseball if they didn't work hard so they need to to even get to college ball but in greenes case he probably would throw 93 with a relatively "light" training schedule.
If he then did get drafted and works hard for 3 years would he then have the same velocity at 22 as a Greene who started working hard on his Velo since age 12?
Dominik85 posted:Regarding the hard work as a teenager: does that shift the ceiling of a pitcher or does it just shift the max Velo to an earlier age? Obviously many would be out of baseball if they didn't work hard so they need to to even get to college ball but in greenes case he probably would throw 93 with a relatively "light" training schedule.
If he then did get drafted and works hard for 3 years would he then have the same velocity at 22 as a Greene who started working hard on his Velo since age 12?
Again, excellent questions and hard to say for sure. I don't know if he would hit 93 with relatively light training. That to me is a real stretch. Depends entirely on how we define "light" and how much we attribute to genetics and how much we attribute to training.
I think it is more likely he would be throwing mid to high 80's at 17 with light training, and he could've been more at risk for injury taking that approach. From all accounts, his delivery is flawless, which attributes not only to his velocity but also his health.
Anyways, good food for thought
With light training I don't mean no sports at all but maybe something like lifting twice a week and just team practices plus maybe a little long toss. Obviously if he just sat on the couch and did 10 push ups once a week he wouldn't throw 90.
MomLW posted:real green posted:Steve A. posted:I will give 2 examples & leave it for the rest to tell me how wrong I am.
Bryce Harper: A natural, right? A true phenom by any measure? Bryce Harper when asked last offseason as he trained indoors hitting with his Dad how many front toss had he hit growing up until present with his Dad like they were doing just then, put his bat on his shoulder, thought about it a minute & answered; "At least a million." When interviewer questioned that, he thought some more & said, "definitely more than a million, no exaggeration."
Mike Trout: another Natural, right? Look up who Mike trout's Dad was as a player. Jeff Trout hit .519 in Division 1 Baseball as a Sr. in College. Do you think having a Dad like that had any impact on him as a player in his development. If his dad had been Inmate # 087642 at Millville Correctional would we know who Mike trout is?
Do you believe you could have dropped off any random adopted baby boy into those households and came out with the same outcomes?
Nope. Steve A, we might know who Mike Trout is anyway if inmate #087642 at Millville was his dad, so long as someone saw his physical gifts and helped him to develop those gifts (i.e., if Jeff Trout was his neighbor/uncle/coach).
It takes these things: work ethic + natural athletic ability + head/heart for the game + luck. The kid himself can only control one of those things.
Absolutely agree! I simply feel that there are no true "naturals" in baseball. The game is too difficult. Look up what the "original natural" Ted Williams had to say when someone referred to him as a natural. Hint; he did not agree.
I will give one possible exception: Bo Jackson.
Dominik85 posted:With light training I don't mean no sports at all but maybe something like lifting twice a week and just team practices plus maybe a little long toss. Obviously if he just sat on the couch and did 10 push ups once a week he wouldn't throw 90.
Hey! That's my training regimen. Well, everything except the pushups. And the lifting. And the longtoss. OK, I just sit on the couch.
KilroyJ posted:Dominik85 posted:With light training I don't mean no sports at all but maybe something like lifting twice a week and just team practices plus maybe a little long toss. Obviously if he just sat on the couch and did 10 push ups once a week he wouldn't throw 90.
Hey! That's my training regimen. Well, everything except the pushups.
Hey! We must not go to the same gym.
Natural talent does exist, I see it many times every year. Sure hard work and other things can help a player come closer to his potential, but his potential is always limited by something. That something is usually natural talent.
Hunter is a natural, no doubt in my mind. He is 17 and can throw 100 mph. Of course he has worked hard and had the advantage of good training and has played against the very best competition. Give some other kid all the same advantages and he might throw 80 mph. Hunter hit something like 7 in a row out of Petco. Give some other kid the same exact advantages and training and they might never hit one out of that ball park.
Baseball is a game that requires different types of natural talent. So some of the most talented don't always end up being the best. Instincts, feel for the game, thought process are all based on natural ability to a degree. You can educate all you want, but some things can't be taught. In the end it becomes a combination of physical ability and mental ability that determines the outcome.
So in my opinion, natural ability is very important and what you do with it is even more important.
Would never argue with Ted Williams, but didn't he have unusual advanced vision? Wouldn't that be considered natural? He had a natural ability over most others. To his point, he got the most out of his ability. It took more than great vision to hit like he did.
PGStaff posted:Natural talent does exist, I see it many times every year. Sure hard work and other things can help a player come closer to his potential, but his potential is always limited by something. That something is usually natural talent.
Hunter is a natural, no doubt in my mind. He is 17 and can throw 100 mph. Of course he has worked hard and had the advantage of good training and has played against the very best competition. Give some other kid all the same advantages and he might throw 80 mph. Hunter hit something like 7 in a row out of Petco. Give some other kid the same exact advantages and training and they might never hit one out of that ball park.
Baseball is a game that requires different types of natural talent. So some of the most talented don't always end up being the best. Instincts, feel for the game, thought process are all based on natural ability to a degree. You can educate all you want, but some things can't be taught. In the end it becomes a combination of physical ability and mental ability that determines the outcome.
So in my opinion, natural ability is very important and what you do with it is even more important.
Would never argue with Ted Williams, but didn't he have unusual advanced vision? Wouldn't that be considered natural? He had a natural ability over most others. To his point, he got the most out of his ability. It took more than great vision to hit like he did.
Do not disagree one bit. The great ones are naturally gifted, no doubt. Ted basically said that nobody, ever, swung the bat as much as he did to become the hitter he was & nobody, until then, put as much thought into the art of hitting as he did. He felt he was a made hitter all the way. Ted did have 20-10 vision. No doubt special but not crazy uncommon.
It would be crazy to ignore the fact that the "ceiling" of some special few is just so much greater than others, purely due to genetics. An excellent read on this very subject is "The Sports Gene" by David Epstein. Well worth the read.
30-40 years ago you had perhaps 2 pitchers in the entire game who could throw 100. Nolan & JR Richard. Last year, in 2016, there were at least 24 pitchers in professional baseball who topped 100. Are there just more "naturals" being born than ever? Or, could it be, that perhaps the genie is out of the bottle & there are the same # of special arms per capita & the "secret formula" for elite velocity is now a known that can be attained by the "gifted" with dedication & a plan to get there. Read Michael Kopech's story on the quest to become the hardest thrower of all time..
http://www.baseballamerica.com...#CTwlxzhBE1ujEm2l.97
Over 15 years the avg MLB FB has increased 3.3mph. That's the effect of velocity training and various improved training methods (speed, explosiveness). Not a huge difference, but guys who were throwing 97-98 with gifted arms can hit 100 now with significantly more training.
Outfielders are also throwing 100mph or more. There's probably just as many (if not more) major and minor league OFers who can throw 100 from the OF
But has anyone seen the difference up close and personal? I remember what 80mph looked like the first time I saw it. At twilight (we didn't have lights) I could barely see the ball. 95mph? I couldn't see the ball at all, and I'd hear a loud whip as the ball cut through the air and when it hit the catchers mitt it sounded like a boxer hitting a heavy bag. Now when I look at a guy who's throwing 95 I can see and track the ball clearly, it cuts through the air with just a little bit of a whiz and the sound it makes when hitting the catchers mitt is underwhelming. Maybe the balls and gloves are different now.
I know a former Div 1 coach from back in the 80s-90s who has kept all of the old Radar Guns from back in the day. He claims the old school "Ray" gun registers a full 5-6mph less than the current Stalker & the old Jugs is 3-4mph less. In short, the new gun jacks up the readings in comparison to the old ones. Just what I was told & this is a very reliable guy.
On a side note, if you get a chance try to rent "Fastball" on Netflix. It details all of the methods used to measure velo going back to Walter Johnson, through Bob Feller, Nolan & up to Chapman & present day. In short, it claims Nolan's heater measured at the Astrodome on August 20, 1974 at 100.9 mph would register 108.5 mph with todays gun & be the fastest measured pitch ever.