Ivy/High Academic Schools and Rigor

b4 - I don't think adding Physics adds much. I'd recommend the lower stress/higher GPA option. Others may have a different take; there are more than a few Ivy parents lurking and posting here.

Pls feel free to PM me for more info

@b4j1h9 posted:

Also, he has ZERO interest in engineering and is more inclined to become an ortho surgeon or physician assistant.

Let me make it simple for you. SKIP the IVY and ANY pricey option if he truly wants go into healthcare at ANY level. Dominate at your sound state option and save the $$$ for medical school. They keep ADDING allopathic medical schools anyway, making it less competitive. Unless you have the means, you're talking 60-70K/ yer TUITION for IVY, and ANOTHER 19-70K/ year for medical school. You will be potentially 580K+ in the hole (not including room and board) before truly starting in an industry that is trending to get paid LESS every year. THOSE loans don't/ won't get written off either... Now if he wants to go into law, business, or finance, that's completely different! ( ie Go for that IVY or other HA brand name(Feel free to PM. I have a link to another discussion by physicians about ROI on Ivies)

If you insist on rigor, I'm not familiar with ACE system. Can he take AP exams regardless? My understanding is that it's not just about taking the rigorous course load or even getting an A, it's also about the "5", and how many.

Does he want to play any baseball at the next level - or just be a student?  Orthopedic Surgeon and PT are a good bit different.  The PT route probably requires somewhat less intense academic focus during the college years. 

This post belongs on a college admissions board - not a baseball forum. If he is good enough at baseball to go to an Ivy - they will lay it all out in recruitment.

If a B in 8th grade is going to prevent him from going to the college he wants - I think you should assess whether it is a college worth spending a quarter million dollars at

A sophomore is currently experiencing anxiety over whether he is taking enough classes to get into an Ivy - that is not healthy.

I can assure you he would rather take gym than anatomy

Has he identified specific schools that he's interested in? The High Academics don't do things the exact same way. It really would be helpful to identify specific schools.

If the coach for one of these schools really likes him I doubt a couple of 8th grade B's will hurt anything. Don't think of the GPA thing as higher is better. Plenty of people with perfect GPAs get rejected by these schools. It's more of a threshold. Is he within range on his GPA/Standardized tests for that school?

b4j1h9,

We'll make you a deal.   If you tell us a little bit more about his baseball ability, skills and recruiting status, I guarantee you will get some guidance and answers to your Ivy/HA rigor question for recruiting purposes.   The Ivy/HA athletic admission process is a bundled package and it depends on many things.  We need to understand his athletic rigor as well.  Make sense?

I agree with all of the above.  A few 8th-grade Bs shouldn't matter, anyway, I'd think that you would work with the HS counselor who is writing the school letter, to explain those online-year Bs.  Even in a big public HS, you can talk to the counselor about such things.

I'm puzzled by your listing only 4 classes; at my son's HS, each student had to take 8 every semester.  My son did the weight-lifting class for PE every year all year, which got in the work he needed for baseball.  What kind of gym class is this?  Will it be helpful for his baseball?

How no math in the spring?  Regardless, I don't think the kind of science will matter at all.

@GratefulNTXlurker posted:

Unless you have the means, you're talking 60-70K/ yer TUITION for IVY, and

Or, if you don't have the means, you will get gobs of financial aid from an Ivy or a similarly wealthy private school.  Never let the price tag scare you off, do a price estimate first.

My son is an Ivy League pitcher, so I'll attempt an answer; please remember that every individual is different and this posting won't apply to every situation. 

While the HC can advocate for his recruits, each player still needs to be voted on by the full admission committee and needs to meet the general standard for each school.  These are the general course recommendations for high school applicants (quoted)

• The study of English for four years: close and extensive reading of the classics of the world’s literature
• Four years of a single foreign language
• The study of history for at least two years, and preferably three years: American history, European history, and one additional advanced history course
• The study of mathematics for four years. (Your student doesn't need to take Calculus, although most of his peers will have; he does need to take a senior math course like Stat or maybe a computer science with math.)
• The study of science for four years: physics, chemistry, and biology, and preferably one of these at an advanced level
• Frequent practice in the writing of expository prose"

So, I think your student needs to pick up a foreign language, an English course, and take physics.   I don't think any particular credit is awarded at the Ivy Leagues for AP scores because there is a separate placement test for every level of math and language once the student is admitted.

I don't think 8th-grade courses count at all, by the way.

And Ivy League schools promise to meet financial need.  So there is money available depending on your situation.  There is no individual athletic money, no tutoring services, no special meals, and barely any bling of any kind.  Also, the season is one week shorter.  On the flip side, conference play is relatively close by and there is not much horrible travel except for in the pre-season.

Hope this helps!

My 2022 was a very good student low 90s grades in a HA private HS, took 3 AP classes and had a <1300 SAT score. He was very good position baseball player with HA D1 looks and after his injury ended up going to a HA D3. His current coach told him he flew through admissions and did not require "help". Academically I think your son is fine but his chances improves a lot if he runs like a college sprinter, drops tanks or throws gas.

@RHP_Parent posted:

I don't think 8th-grade courses count at all, by the way.

In our kid's situation, he took HS math as an 8th grader, and it IS on the HS transcript and had it not been for COVID, wouldve been counted toward GPA and class rank. Too bad, as it wouldve helped. I believe the OP is in similar situation but agree with all they should not stress about it, as most get an academic proverbial "pass" from that pandemic time period anyway. My understanding is that many schools, including IVIES either suspended consideration of standardized SAT and ACT test scores during the pandemic years, or did not make them mandatory.

Many colleges will not award college credit for a 4 or 5 on an AP exam, but I'd bet dollars to donuts they wouldnt mind seeing a sea of 5s as more of a validation of the "A"s theyre seeing for their counterpart courses and in comparing applicants. An applicant's A with a 3 on the corresponding exam may not look as good as the B with a 5 on the exam. Basically, it helps further validate schedule  "rigor". Thats likely more relevant to the general admissions process, as I agree the STUD baseballer with barely good enough "range" is rolled out the red carpet, sooooo back to BASEBALL...

Thank you all for the responses. To summarize my long post (paralysis by analysis, I know), I just wanna make sure admissions won't see his transcript and say, "OMG he took gym when he could have taken more STEM classes?! Not Ivy league material!!"

And surgeon/PA are just a couple possibilities among a dozen plus mostly science related majors. I just wanted to be clear—in regards to physics—that an engineering major won't be happening.

Also, his school does block scheduling (80 minute classes), so that's why it's 4 classes per semester, and half credit classes like art and gym are every other day.

Fenway,

He's a LHP 5'11 190lb. Good build, broad frame. Fastball up to 86 during a bullpen a couple weeks ago. Was 85 this past weekend at a showcase. Plus changeup. Solid curveball. Just started throwing a slider.

He's on a well respected national travel team in the northeast. Now that he has velo readings, he'll send emails to coaches with video and his school/travel ball schedules. He'll take his first ACT in June. We're strongly considering doing Showball in August.

The schools he's interested in: Ivy, Northeastern, W&M, Richmond, Davidson, Northwestern, Georgetown, Binghamton, Patriots. If D1 isn't in the cards, he'll switch gears to D3.

After your last post I wouldnt sweat "rigor". If MIT and Caltech were on your radar, that would certainly change things. Besides, whats not to like about a southpaw pumping 86 as a sophomore? Also, as a pitcher, Id take physics these days as a priority so I could (begin to) understand baseball nerd talk like "seam shifted wake" and laminar flow...

@b4j1h9 posted:

He's a LHP 5'11 190lb. Good build, broad frame. Fastball up to 86 during a bullpen a couple weeks ago. Was 85 this past weekend at a showcase. Plus changeup. Solid curveball. Just started throwing a slider.

It helps much more when you include the baseball stats - otherwise it seems like you're seeking admissions advice.

The two Ivys that recruited mine told him he needed a 27 and Bs. I can assure you he was not taking any honors or AP courses. He would have been their best recruit so maybe that factors into it, but he did get as far as sending transcripts and test scores over and they didn't seem to have an issue with anything. Athletes have a different admissions pathway than regular students.

At the end of the day you still have to have the baseball talent. After they decide you're capable of playing there do they decide to look at the grades. The grades can only disqualify you. It's not like the inferior player with the higher GPA is getting recruited over your son

@b4j1h9,

Your son's guidance councelor should have access to the Naviance tool that details the admissions history of his high school and other high school to specific colleges.  You can see GPA, rigor, and SAT/ACT scores in the Naviance tool.  This is a good guideline to address your concerns.

In my son's experience it was about rigor.  He had 4 Ivys recruit him and two offered.  It is a numbers game and you do have to cast a wide net.   They want to see your son challenge himself and succeed in challenging himself in the classroom and athletics.   It sounds like your son is off to a good start with the baseball and academic side of the equation.   If your son is taking the most challenging classes at his high school, he will be fine.   Admissions depts know a lot of these high schools and they have the ability to "weigh" high schools against each other.   At the end of the day, your son is competing against other recruitable athletes that are considering BOTH athletic and academic capabilities.  Coaches recommend their recruits to admissions, and admissions makes the final call.   So, baseball skills grabs the coaches attention, and the academic metrics are weighed first by the coach then by admissions.  Feel free to PM me if you want to get into more specifics.

The "tell" for an Ivy is if your son is being recruited by other D1 baseball programs.   If your son is in that category then you know you have a really good chance with an Ivy.   The colleges that you listed above I'm very familiar with.   My son was also offered at 3 of those schools and that is why we knew we were on the right track with regards to the D1 & D3 HA question.  My son is a little different in that he was looking for the best engineering program, and he didn't care so much about the NCAA division.  My best advice would be to keep working hard on both sides of the academic and athletic ledger to boost his numbers.  He needs an exposure strategy to get the coaches attention.   Hopefully your travel coach or high school coach can help you with that.   Otherwise, you are going to have to develop your own plan. 

I have to run, but I think you get the gist of what I'm saying.  Good luck and keep the questions coming.   The Ivy/HA process can be a rabbit hole.   Thankfully, we've got a lot of great folks here to help you.

Will

Thank you everyone for the input. It's very helpful.

Some HA schools will not be flexible with the grades and SAT/ACT scores. I believe Cal Tech, MIT were already mentioned. I would add JHU (from son's experience) and U Chicago from another posters experience.

@b4j1h9 posted:

Long time lurker. Sorry for this long, overly detailed post all about rigor.

My '25 is interested in Ivy and high academic schools. He's planning his junior year schedule and wants it to be rigorous enough. His counselor said it "should'' be fine, but my son still is a bit unsure. And he just found out two B's from 8th grade (COVID virtual year) are on his high school transcript, so that has him feeling even more anxious.

Potential junior year schedule:

(80 minute classes)

(ACE is dual enrollment and his school doesn't offer AP for the ACE classes mentioned)

Fall:

-AP US History/American Voices (year long combo course)

-ACE Chem 1

-ACE Pre Calc

-Gym/Art 1 (art 1&2 required for graduation)

Spring:

-AP US History/American Voices

-ACE Chem 2

-Health (required)

-Gym/Art 2

He's considering dropping gym. He could do a fitness journal instead and have room for another class (art 1&2 can be taken concurrently). If he did that, he'd want to take anatomy/physiology. I think physics might be preferred by colleges, but he's likely to get a better grade in anatomy as he's slightly better with science than math. Also, he has ZERO interest in engineering and is more inclined to become an ortho surgeon or physician assistant. Either way, this schedule will challenge him, so if he doesn't really need the extra class in place of gym, then I see no point in potentially lowering his GPA.

His senior year, schedule wise, will be pretty wide open. The only classes he'll need are econ and English. In addition to that, he'll likely do ACE calc and ACE bio. That would leave room for two other classes—unless of course he does gym senior year.

Thanks for the help.

I have a good bit to say on this topic as I use to be a member of a Health Care professional admissions board.   

First, the grades that he received in the 8th grade will not reflect on his permanent high school transcript that is sent to colleges and Universities.

Second, if your son wants to pursue a career in the health care profession, then he will need to apply to graduate programs such as Medical School, Dental School, Optometry School, or Physical Therapy School.   This may be a shock to some here, but Dental School is actually the most difficult to get accepted into, mainly because of the limited number of schools and positions in each school class.   On the admission board that I sat on Dentistry was more challenging than Medicine because we accepted so many Medical students and so few Dental Students.   

Third, if your son wants to go to one of the health care professional programs, then where he attends his undergraduate education absolutely makes a difference.  I know that this will not be well received, but going to Juco program to play baseball is not going to be helpful for your son's future application to health professional school.   It will be a negative factor in his application.  However, playing baseball will help offset that should he continue to play in his Senior College.   It is important to go to a reputable undergraduate school that has a long track record of having successful students that have matriculated past the health professional school.   

Fourth, it is not necessary to go to an Ivy League school.   The overwhelming majority of students that are accepted into medical school did not go to Ivy League.   You are much better off finding an affordable and obtainable quasi-HA school in your state.   A lot of D2 school fit that category nicely.   If your son goes to a good reputable academic undergraduate program and plays baseball then he will set himself up nicely to get into medical/dental/optometry school etc....   There are plenty of schools that are midmajor, low D1, D2 or D3 schools that fit that category.  I wouldn't waste money on trying to get into an Ivy League school.  It just isn't necessary for that career path.

Let me add this since this topic gives me a forum to bring it up.   Baseball is a great resume builder.  In all my years of sitting on dental/medical school admissions boards, I don't believe that we ever denied admissions for a collegiate baseball player.  Most of us understood the time dedication that it takes to play college sports.  Unfortunately, a lot of practically minded people are no longer on those admissions committees and instead you have politically minded people that are more interested in the demographic make up of a medical and dental school class rather than applicants that have a background that proves they can handle the rigors of graduate school curriculum.

Lots of good info here. Ivies have more flexibility on GPA and test scores than other HA's. RHP Parent gave a great description of what is required. Test optional does not typically apply to baseball players, so prepare for and take the test. He'll want to take it fall of junior year for the first time and peak for the test in spring of junior year.

The grades will all depend on the target major. My son wants to major in math and physics. He's had straight B's and B+'s in HS on level English. Ironically, in his final semester of HS he is on pace to get an A. Some of the top HA schools in the country didn't even ask about those grades. They asked about his AP test scores and grades for STEM subjects.

Keep in mind, Ivy and HA schools will have minimum test scores. For a stud player the lowest SAT I've seen for an Ivy is 1250. For other schools like Caltech, MIT, and Hopkins it doesn't matter how good you are. This year Hopkins was a 1510 and MIT was a 1520 (although they have not yet admitted half of their 2023 recruiting class).

There are a lot of different course requirements for different colleges. I'd recommend taking 4 years of English and 4 years of language, math every semester, science every semester (especially getting through Physics 2 if possible), and social sciences every semester. This would cover most of them.

The college counselor at my son's school told him to skip chemistry sophomore year because he'd be able to get through Physics C in doing so. Whelp, fall of junior year I find out 2 of his top college choices require AP chemistry. Had to make a major shift in his schedule and barely avoided having to eliminate these choices because of a dumb oversight.

Foreign language is what I see as the hole in the OP's schedule.  Even Ivies don't all explicitly require them, but they more or less expect them.

And, just as a note, in our school system, if you take a class in middle school that gets high school credit, such as Algebra or Spanish 2, it DOES show up on your transcript and is included in the GPA.  A school counselor can confirm this.

Son was a position player at W&M.  PM if you have any questions.

Fenway and I both live in the Richmond area and can be of help if you head this way south.

Each school should have their admission requirements as regard to HS class minimums listed on their website.  RHP_Parent listed them nicely for the Ivies.  The W&M coach was all over son about completing his language requirement in high school.  Trying to meet the requirement in a HA college could be unnecessarily difficult. 

@keewart posted:

Son was a position player at W&M.  PM if you have any questions.

Fenway and I both live in the Richmond area and can be of help if you head this way south.

Each school should have their admission requirements as regard to HS class minimums listed on their website.  RHP_Parent listed them nicely for the Ivies.  The W&M coach was all over son about completing his language requirement in high school.  Trying to meet the requirement in a HA college could be unnecessarily difficult.

Can someone expound on the foreign language "requirement"?  I get the impression that four years might include such classed taken in college, but not necessary if taken in high school.  If correct, I assume this requirement is in the graduation requirements as opposed to admissions requirements.  Thoughts?

@b4j1h9 posted:

Thank you all for the responses. To summarize my long post (paralysis by analysis, I know), I just wanna make sure admissions won't see his transcript and say, "OMG he took gym when he could have taken more STEM classes?! Not Ivy league material!!"

And surgeon/PA are just a couple possibilities among a dozen plus mostly science related majors. I just wanted to be clear—in regards to physics—that an engineering major won't be happening.

Also, his school does block scheduling (80 minute classes), so that's why it's 4 classes per semester, and half credit classes like art and gym are every other day.

Fenway,

He's a LHP 5'11 190lb. Good build, broad frame. Fastball up to 86 during a bullpen a couple weeks ago. Was 85 this past weekend at a showcase. Plus changeup. Solid curveball. Just started throwing a slider.

He's on a well respected national travel team in the northeast. Now that he has velo readings, he'll send emails to coaches with video and his school/travel ball schedules. He'll take his first ACT in June. We're strongly considering doing Showball in August.

The schools he's interested in: Ivy, Northeastern, W&M, Richmond, Davidson, Northwestern, Georgetown, Binghamton, Patriots. If D1 isn't in the cards, he'll switch gears to D3.

The schools he's interested in: Ivy, Northeastern, W&M, Richmond, Davidson, Northwestern, Georgetown, Binghamton, Patriots. If D1 isn't in the cards, he'll switch gears to D3.

Stating the obvious but those are ALL different kind of experiences both culturally and athletically.  All great schools, of course, but different.  eg Northeastern is a large urban school, Bing a large school in an AMAZING new facility, but a bit isolated in central NY.  Davidson is wonderful, but very small, Georgetown is great but the facilities (if it's still this way) are not near campus making an already large time commitment even harder.   Point is, not one size fits all.  It's a major commitment, take the time to see the schools, get a sense of place and culture.  

And lastly, don't rule out D3.  My son was a D1/D3 borderline player during Covid.  Probably would have been D1 if not for Covid, and yet I truly believe he's happier with the D3 time commitment.  Which, to be clear, is SUBSTANTIAL.  But not quite as full, particularly in the fall, as any D1 program.

As the ivy coaches will tell you, if you can't get into my school you can't play baseball for me.  So I do think this is a relevant topic for the board, if baseball is a goal there.

Bullet points:  If you seriously want to go Ivy, you need to.

* take as rigorous a course load as possible that gives you the time to do the extra curricular required to show a well rounded student - everyone has a 4.0 unweighted including 95% of those that don't get accepted.  The difference is what else you bring to the table.  The one kid on my HS baseball team who went IVY had a 90+MPH fastball and was a 4.0 student, he's now a very successful Lawyer.

* Schools drop non core classes out of your transcripts and recalc your gpa

* There are other options, as even the ivies really only consider grad/post grad degrees as a Real Ivy degree, so going to a good undergrad and applying to a great grad school is no less impressive as going ivy to ivy.

* If getting A's is not just something that you do, is killing yourself to get them worth it?  Putting in real work is one thing, but getting no sleep and constantly worrying over grades is not healthy.

* Just like D1 or bust should not be the thing, Ivy or Bust shouldn't either.  it's not where you start it's where you end up.

* Try to work in AP Chem and AP BIO for possible health majors, as well as a statistics math course as long as it doesn't interfere with AP Calc (all required bio major courses) which is typical of pre-med.

* added * there is nothing wrong with setting the bar high, too many don't, and for most, where you end up is usually based on what you put into it.

@Wechson posted:

The schools he's interested in: Ivy, Northeastern, W&M, Richmond, Davidson, Northwestern, Georgetown, Binghamton, Patriots. If D1 isn't in the cards, he'll switch gears to D3.

Stating the obvious but those are ALL different kind of experiences both culturally and athletically.  All great schools, of course, but different.  eg Northeastern is a large urban school, Bing a large school in an AMAZING new facility, but a bit isolated in central NY.  Davidson is wonderful, but very small, Georgetown is great but the facilities (if it's still this way) are not near campus making an already large time commitment even harder.   Point is, not one size fits all.  It's a major commitment, take the time to see the schools, get a sense of place and culture.  

And lastly, don't rule out D3.  My son was a D1/D3 borderline player during Covid.  Probably would have been D1 if not for Covid, and yet I truly believe he's happier with the D3 time commitment.  Which, to be clear, is SUBSTANTIAL.  But not quite as full, particularly in the fall, as any D1 program.

@Wechson is making a fantastic point here.   It is great to start with a large list of colleges, and then whittle it down to what fits you.  As the OP will discover, his listed schools are so different from each other.  Know thy self.  My son and I had long talks about this topic, after all you are going to spend 4 years of your life somewhere and invest a lot of money in your education.   You have to be comfortable with your surroundings and baseball is just one part of the equation.  My son was very much against going to school in a big city despite some great opportunities.  He was very adamant about that.   Yes, he visited a handful of them because (frankly) his Mom and I made him.   After he visited big city schools he understood why we made him tour the campus.  A lot of times it is understanding what you don't want to get to what you want.     

Additionally, each Ivy League school is so different from each other.  At the end of the day, it is an athletic conference and that is about all they have in common.  Dartmouth and Penn are about as far apart as can be.  Harvard and Cornell couldn't be more different.   Look at each school on its own merits, and opportunities.

As always, JMO.

Just went through this with our 24 RHP. The point above about the baseball skill set seems worth repeating. If your son is likely to be a top recruit at one of the ivies that prioritizes winning, rigor will matter a lot less than you might expect. We were really surprised by the reactions to son’s unexceptional transcript. On the other end of the spectrum, even a top recruit at the ivies that focus a lot less on winning should assume that he’ll get little to no bump from baseball.

For whatever it’s worth, we were also told to expect the ivies to remain “test optional” - son almost committed for that reason alone to avoid having to study and sit for the test.

@2017 Lefty Dad posted:

Can someone expound on the foreign language "requirement"?  I get the impression that four years might include such classed taken in college, but not necessary if taken in high school.  If correct, I assume this requirement is in the graduation requirements as opposed to admissions requirements.  Thoughts?

W&M had a 4 year language requirement.  So did my college, when I went.  Son took 4 years in HS.  I took 2 years in HS, but then had to take 2 years in college. 

Some colleges may take 3 + 2 (of different languages). 

I would check with each college and not have an unexpected surprise.

Such great info. Thank you again everyone.

I was so green coming into this process I thought, "He should go to a college that has a grad school because he'll have so many college credits coming out of high school that he'll be able to graduate early and start grad school while still playing ball!"

Then I found out some schools (e.g. Ivy) don't accept the credits and others limit it to only a few. (And I've learned Ivy League doesn't have grad school athletes.)

Then I found out many schools discourage ballplayers from having certain majors like science.

Then I found out, in regards to PA school, the major isn't that important so long as you have a half dozen or so pre reqs, and I thought, "Great!!... Wait, what's this about 1000+ hours of direct patient care?!?!"

Now, I'd almost prefer a college without a grad school so at least I'd know he wouldn't have to compete for innings against 24-year-old, transfer grad students.

Anyway, this site is such a great resource for parents like me who, coming into the process, don't even know what they don't know. I've copied and pasted many enlightening posts and shown them to my wife and son, so again I thank you all.

And thank you for the heads up on 4 years of foreign language. We'll see what this baseball season brings and may add Spanish 4 to the schedule. (I checked for a French 1 loophole, but all the schools clearly state "4 units of the SAME language." Oh well.)

As to the Ivy League, I wouldn't say we're Ivy or bust, but that certainly is the goal he set. And ever since, he's been a straight A student, so even if he doesn't make it, he'll likely end up better off than had he not set that goal at all. I'll be a proud papa regardless knowing he worked his tail off.

@b4j1h9 posted:

Such great info. Thank you again everyone.

I was so green coming into this process I thought, "He should go to a college that has a grad school because he'll have so many college credits coming out of high school that he'll be able to graduate early and start grad school while still playing ball!"

Then I found out some schools (e.g. Ivy) don't accept the credits and others limit it to only a few. (And I've learned Ivy League doesn't have grad school athletes.)

Then I found out many schools discourage ballplayers from having certain majors like science.

Then I found out, in regards to PA school, the major isn't that important so long as you have a half dozen or so pre reqs, and I thought, "Great!!... Wait, what's this about 1000+ hours of direct patient care?!?!"

Now, I'd almost prefer a college without a grad school so at least I'd know he wouldn't have to compete for innings against 24-year-old, transfer grad students.

Anyway, this site is such a great resource for parents like me who, coming into the process, don't even know what they don't know. I've copied and pasted many enlightening posts and shown them to my wife and son, so again I thank you all.

And thank you for the heads up on 4 years of foreign language. We'll see what this baseball season brings and may add Spanish 4 to the schedule. (I checked for a French 1 loophole, but all the schools clearly state "4 units of the SAME language." Oh well.)

As to the Ivy League, I wouldn't say we're Ivy or bust, but that certainly is the goal he set. And ever since, he's been a straight A student, so even if he doesn't make it, he'll likely end up better off than had he not set that goal at all. I'll be a proud papa regardless knowing he worked his tail off.

Responding again....  I don't mean to rain on your son's parade about Ivy league schools, but keep in mind that there are some instances where you are actually better off being in a local school than an Ivy league program.  This is especially true if you are in the deep south.   I can assure you, if your son wants to go to Medical school and you live in the South East, there are a lot of school that will would probably be better for your son's admissions hopes than an Ivy League school.  Every state in the deep south has HA D2 and D3 schools that would be better received from those state medical schools than an Ivy league degree.   And, I'm not speculating about that.  I know this to be true.   Now...  If you live in Pennsylvania or the Northeast then this advice probably is inaccurate.   I'm not sure how the academic culture works up there.  But, if you live in Georgia and want to Medical School at MCG then a degree from Mercer, Oglethorp, and Emory would work for you better than one from Columbia. 

@fenwaysouth posted:

Know thy self.

I often preach this too, but this admittedly is easier said than done especially at a young age. I think as parents many of us feel that ideally "finding oneself" at least to some extent, exploring & trying different things; WAITING to make BIG life choices and making a better, more informed decision is prudent. HOWEVER, modern life seems to reward and behoove those who have a firm inkling sooner. Historically, it's my understanding MANY employers and industries love engineering majors. They're smart, analytical, but moreover still PLIABLE enough to shift to other industries (finance) etc, as they have the advanced math ("universal language") to apply to other fields. ALL pun intended, they're more like a STEM cell , not terminally differentiated or pigeon holed...

Sooo streamlining the incredible contributions above... IF... (emphasis mine)

@DroppedStrikeThree posted:

The point above about the baseball skill set seems worth repeating. If your son is likely to be a top recruit at one of the ivies that prioritizes winning, rigor will matter a lot less than you might expect. We were really surprised by the reactions to son’s unexceptional transcript.

Then... (and so forth)

@HSDad22 posted:

* If getting A's is not just something that you do, is killing yourself to get them worth it?  Putting in real work is one thing, but getting no sleep and constantly worrying over grades is not healthy.

@DroppedStrikeThree posted:

On the other end of the spectrum, even a top recruit at the ivies that focus a lot less on winning should assume that he’ll get little to no bump from baseball.

Then...

@HSDad22 posted:

* take as rigorous a course load as possible that gives you the time to do the extra curricular required to show a well rounded student - everyone has a 4.0 unweighted including 95% of those that don't get accepted.  The difference is what else you bring to the table.  The one kid on my HS baseball team who went IVY had a 90+MPH fastball and was a 4.0 student, he's now a very successful Lawyer.

* Schools drop non core classes out of your transcripts and recalc your gpa

* Try to work in AP Chem and AP BIO for possible health majors, as well as a statistics math course as long as it doesn't interfere with AP Calc (all required bio major courses) which is typical of pre-med.

and could not agree more with all else @HSDad22 wrote..

Also, again to keep it germane to the OP, they mentioned PA (physician assistant), NOT PT (physical therapy), though I hold physical therapists in very high regard and agree with all it's great career path. Long after the orthropod is gone, it's what they (the physical therapists and the motivation/ compliance of the patient) that determines ultimate recovery success. I think they're also UNDERutilized, as they could very well be the modern "apple"... a PT session a day keeps the doctor (orthropod) away. Plus, one can open their own practice/ facility and be ones own boss. SUNY-Binghamton is an outstanding state school and option BTW, at least it was so when I applied to college over 35 years ago. Admittedly things have changed. I recall when JHU was considered a pricey "safety" and more (pre)medicine-centric. My how things have changed, as from what I read (esp round here) it's seemingly now on par with the Dukes and Stanfords of the academic brand name universe.

Also I would concur that moving forward (at least a for 3-7 years until PE begins to ruin that industry as well) dentistry is one of the more desirable healthcare professions to go into. If you don't spend too much time finding yourself, you essentially finish at age 25-26 and are "ready" to go out into the real world and make real money (if that's important to you), as opposed to medicine where your 30-31 at a minimum. Those five years of prime income earning time can make a difference in the long run. And make no mistake, healthcare is NOT a white collar desk career. It can be physically demanding and takes its toll on the body. UNLIKE medicine, in dentistry there's a ridiculously lucrative branch (again if that's what drives you) that essentially requires no formal accredited training like a residency or fellowship (though from what Ive seen that needs to change). Finally, applying other logic from this thread I imagine the optometrists have ultimate healthcare bragging rights as "hardest to get into"; since Google says there are (only) 24 optometry schools in North America (sorry @Ster, couldn't resist

@HSDad22 posted:

* added * there is nothing wrong with setting the bar high, too many don't, and for most, where you end up is usually based on what you put into it.

@b4j1h9 posted:

As to the Ivy League, I wouldn't say we're Ivy or bust, but that certainly is the goal he set. And ever since, he's been a straight A student, so even if he doesn't make it, he'll likely end up better off than had he not set that goal at all. I'll be a proud papa regardless knowing he worked his tail off.

Is there a way to insert a thumb's up emoji in here?

@Ster posted:

Responding again....  I don't mean to rain on your son's parade about Ivy league schools, but keep in mind that there are some instances where you are actually better off being in a local school than an Ivy league program.  This is especially true if you are in the deep south.   I can assure you, if your son wants to go to Medical school and you live in the South East, there are a lot of school that will would probably be better for your son's admissions hopes than an Ivy League school.  Every state in the deep south has HA D2 and D3 schools that would be better received from those state medical schools than an Ivy league degree.   And, I'm not speculating about that.  I know this to be true.   Now...  If you live in Pennsylvania or the Northeast then this advice probably is inaccurate.   I'm not sure how the academic culture works up there.  But, if you live in Georgia and want to Medical School at MCG then a degree from Mercer, Oglethorp, and Emory would work for you better than one from Columbia.

THIS! Emphasis mine and @Ster 100% spot on.

I will add if you have the resources, visit the campus. The HA D3 school my son ended up going to wasn't even on his radar. We stopped by during the pandemic year since it was sort of close to the other schools to the other schools. We just happen to run into the head of admissions and gave a great overview of the school and facilities. Kid absolutely was thrilled about the close walking distance proximity of the dorms, classes and facilities. He connected the kid with the baseball recruiter...and the rest was history.

We're from upstate NY. I think NC is about as far south as he'd want to go. His preferred campus criteria are mostly yet to be determined.  He doesn't think he wants a big city; on the flip side, we went by Lehigh a couple summers ago and he said, "Jeez, this is the middle of nowhere." So my guess is most of the campus criteria he'll want are in the Goldilocks zone.

His school team heads south for spring break in a few weeks, so we'll take some detours by Davidson, Richmond, and W&M. We'll try to visit the Northeast schools around his travel ball schedule. Our "wide net" will shrink after that (Georgetown, GWU, Columbia, and Penn are some of the more likely casualties).

As for his field of study, for years he had wanted to be an orthopedic surgeon, but then had second thoughts after dissecting a frog and not liking the smell. I told him that might just mean he doesn't want to be a mortician. Most recently he's asked about majoring in anatomy, but I don't see much of a job market other than an anatomy professor.

Sorry for all the academic talk. Back to baseball! He threw a bullpen yesterday with his school team. His coach (former minor league catcher) liked the run on his 4-seam and liked his changeup even more. First game is in a couple weeks!

@b4j1h9 posted:

We're from upstate NY. I think NC is about as far south as he'd want to go. His preferred campus criteria are mostly yet to be determined.  He doesn't think he wants a big city; on the flip side, we went by Lehigh a couple summers ago and he said, "Jeez, this is the middle of nowhere." So my guess is most of the campus criteria he'll want are in the Goldilocks zone.

His school team heads south for spring break in a few weeks, so we'll take some detours by Davidson, Richmond, and W&M. We'll try to visit the Northeast schools around his travel ball schedule. Our "wide net" will shrink after that (Georgetown, GWU, Columbia, and Penn are some of the more likely casualties).

As for his field of study, for years he had wanted to be an orthopedic surgeon, but then had second thoughts after dissecting a frog and not liking the smell. I told him that might just mean he doesn't want to be a mortician. Most recently he's asked about majoring in anatomy, but I don't see much of a job market other than an anatomy professor.

Sorry for all the academic talk. Back to baseball! He threw a bullpen yesterday with his school team. His coach (former minor league catcher) liked the run on his 4-seam and liked his changeup even more. First game is in a couple weeks!

His school team heads south for spring break in a few weeks, so we'll take some detours by Davidson, Richmond, and W&M. We'll try to visit the Northeast schools around his travel ball schedule. Our "wide net" will shrink after that (Georgetown, GWU, Columbia, and Penn are some of the more likely casualties)

Recommend checking out W&L if you're in that neck of the woods.  Will say if he finds Lehigh remote then this may feel like the hinterlands.  That said, it's truly a special place and they do have a well regarded pre-med track of coursework. https://www.wlu.edu/academics/.../health-professions/

Just one simple rule:  money matters.  The wealthier the school (and Ivies are among the wealthiest in the country), you get:

(1) much more need-based financial aid, and

(2) more money for academics, research, travel, etc.

Also, in a smaller school (i.e. Ivy and smaller), there are many more opportunities for doing research, working with professors, etc.  That is why going to those schools changes the nature of your education, and why having those degrees is viewed positively for many post-grad things.  Admittedly, they put a lower priority on athletics.  Depending on what you want to do after college, these things might matter, or they might not.

100% agree. These elite schools have a strong alumni who will connect stident and a solid track record of placing students in internships relative to other academic institutions.