Hope this isn't a sign that Springs sports will be cancelled...
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It's ridiculous they are just now making this decision. This applies to current Ivy senior student athletes which of course includes all sports--Fall, Winter, and Spring.
This should have been decided when they made the decision to cancel Fall and Winter sports. BEFORE grad-school applications were due!
Which is why this really makes me think they will cancel Spring sports--by "senior student athletes" they really mean the kids that will now miss TWO Spring seasons--last year's Junior's!
Do you think that seniors who play spring sports were warned about this by their coaches, back in December?
I'm sure that many student athletes who go to expensive residential colleges in conferences that have not yet announced about spring, had to figure out whether to take online classes (in case sports happened) or to take the semester off. The cynical side of me says that the conferences deliberately didn't announce until classes had started, so as to maximize enrollment.
Wasn't it discussed on another thread, that Yale lacrosse doesn't have enough players to field a team, even if the Ivy League allows them to play?
I just don't get this. Using Harvard as an example, unless you were planning for years to go to the Medical School or the Law School you are not going to be able to pivot at the last minute and get in. The Dental School, Divinity School, School of Engineering are obviously too specialized. The Business School usually requires a couple of years of work experience. So you are down to the Graduate School of Arts and Sciences. So for about $50,000 (plus living expenses) you get to tack another year of liberal arts study on to your education.
I'm okay with it, but why bother. This is going to apply to such a small number of people that it almost isn't worth the effort unless it is about optics and to say that they tried to accommodate their student athletes (at the 11th hour) as the horse already left the barn. Honestly, I feel for all the Ivy student-athletes caught in the middle of this pandemic. Their lives and college experience didn't turn out as expected after a lot of hard work to get this opportunity.
I think this is a such a minimal gesture by the Ivy League Presidents. There are a handful of graduating Ivy students that had already entered the portal to play as graduate students elsewhere.
@K9 posted:I just don't get this. Using Harvard as an example, unless you were planning for years to go to the Medical School or the Law School you are not going to be able to pivot at the last minute and get in. The Dental School, Divinity School, School of Engineering are obviously too specialized. The Business School usually requires a couple of years of work experience. So you are down to the Graduate School of Arts and Sciences. So for about $50,000 (plus living expenses) you get to tack another year of liberal arts study on to your education.
Some of the Ivies charge 10% of the parents annual income until it reaches 250K. For 10K or less maybe a kid hangs around. But I doubt many Ivy grads will hang around to play. It wouldn’t be a good idea to pass on quality professional and grad opportunities.
If I’m in an Ivy graduate school program I’m not wasting time and focus on a sport. You’re in the fast lane in an Ivy grad school. You’re competing with the best of the best at the top of the academic world.
You forgot the Kennedy School btw.
@anotherparent posted:Do you think that seniors who play spring sports were warned about this by their coaches, back in December?
I'm sure that many student athletes who go to expensive residential colleges in conferences that have not yet announced about spring, had to figure out whether to take online classes (in case sports happened) or to take the semester off. The cynical side of me says that the conferences deliberately didn't announce until classes had started, so as to maximize enrollment.
Wasn't it discussed on another thread, that Yale lacrosse doesn't have enough players to field a team, even if the Ivy League allows them to play?
Yale LaCrosse sensed it would get nixed and so enough "opted out" so they couldn't field a team. @anotherparent I don't think you are cynical at all. The first thing that got Ivy players mad was that they decision not to "yet" announce a spring schedule was so late, that they had already enrolled and started classes (paying tuition). Now to offer this "allowance" so late in the game, so to speak.
Players haven't taken GRE/LSAT or prepped for it. How many are on the roster that would qualify the IVY LEAGUE grad schools? Unlike, undergrad acceptances, no coaches tip either with admissions. This is really for the league to make itself look good. I really thought the League would play once the Patriot League put something together (2 divisions) to lessen travel. I know they haven't announced the season is over, but...
This just out. A very big donor alum (Yale Law School) offered to build a new state of the art "bubble" which would allow both women's and men's Lacrosse in the Ivy League to play this season. The donor also played LAX undergrad. The league declined the offer. Huh?
@Ripken Fan posted:This just out. A very big donor alum (Yale Law School) offered to build a new state of the art "bubble" which would allow both women's and men's Lacrosse in the Ivy League to play this season. The donor also played LAX undergrad. The league declined the offer. Huh?
Not surprising considering recent politics and attitudes towards so-called sports of privilege. They'd rather cut off their nose to spite their face than accept money for this.
if the Alumni used their heads instead of their hearts they would just cut them off completely. you want to watch an Ivy squirm, shut off the flow.
Sadly, ivies can afford to be that way. They do dung like that across all their programs. I am both angry and envious when institutions like those have unlimited demand of attendance and resources and freely operate with impunity.
A little insight: Apparently Yale said yes, and the league declined.
@Twoboys posted:You forgot the Kennedy School btw.
Actually no, I thought it went without saying that no self respecting Harvard grad would waste his time there.
@Ripken Fan posted:This just out. A very big donor alum (Yale Law School) offered to build a new state of the art "bubble" which would allow both women's and men's Lacrosse in the Ivy League to play this season. The donor also played LAX undergrad. The league declined the offer. Huh?
I think Mr Tsai's heart is in the right place. It was one heck of generous gesture. As I read the article I was thinking...what does this mean for the other sports and then sure enough the authors projected that as a possible reason it got shot down. The other reason is who want to travel from Hanover (189 mi), Ithaca (258mi), Princeton (130mi), Philadelphia (173 mi) to play all away lacrosse games every week. That is a huge logistical and academic burden. Lets face it lacrosse is one of the fastest growing sports in the United States, but it isn't bringing in thousands of fans....no Ivy League sport is bringing in thousands except possibly hockey... I think lacrosse is popular at the Ivys but not popular enough to put some demands on the ADs and Presidents. So, my point is this was a great idea but I just don't see it having legs unless they were to include more sports and that was cost prohibitive.
JMO
Idk Yale mens lax won the national championship in 2018. There were LOTS of fans at the playoffs. We have friends on the team. And yes both did not enroll in classes this year to save their eligibility, but have been in New Haven.
And K9 -- no need to be an a$$. I am a self respecting harvard grad - ARE YOU? And if you think the K School is not prominent enough, you have your head up what I just called you. Plus it is one place some of the athletes might have interest in as they do take a very limited number straight from school. Know what you are talking (or writing about) before you open up your mouth to be rude intentionally and without reason. I could list a whole bunch of impressive grads and a whole bunch of big donors (or impressive faculty) if you need me to. Just ask nicely.
@fenwaysouth posted:..no Ivy League sport is bringing in thousands except possibly hockey...
I was watching Capitals @Penguins last night. The announcers made a big point how there were two graduates from Brown University (one from each team) on the ice at the same time!
@Ripken Fan posted:I was watching Capitals @Penguins last night. The announcers made a big point how there were two graduates from Brown University (one from each team) on the ice at the same time!
One Brown graduate on an NHL rink would be an anomaly. Brown sucks at hockey. Infrequently they have back to back .500+ seasons.
As for Ivy hockey attendance there are sixty teams. Going back two years (normality) Cornell was the #1 Ivy at #22. Yale at #26 was the only other Ivy in the top half.
Seemed inevitable, and there it is.
@MidAtlanticDad posted:Seemed inevitable, and there it is.
The future leaders of America cowering rather than leading.
IMO it has been proven that baseball can be played safely. There is no science or any other tangible reason that suggests it’s too dangerous. It really boils down to whether or not schools, conferences & government officials want baseball to be played. Ivy League and other HA schools think the optics would be bad (I disagree) and don’t want to play. In the process they are wronging a countless number of student athletes that have worked for 10 years or more to achieve personal goals. Disgusting.
Let's be fair. On this forum, athletics is the most important thing there is. For the rest of the people at a college, sports seem pretty frivolous. If I were on a college debate team or in a musical group or a researcher, I'd be pretty pissed off if I were told I couldn't gather to debate or make music or attend a conference, but the baseball team could travel to play sports. And it would not be a question of virus safety, but a question about why a college would spend money to keep sports going but not spend money to allow other kinds of activities. I don't doubt that to do all activities safely (even just all sports) would cost a lot of money. Big-time televised college sports that make money are different. Ivy League sports, not really.
I agree that the players are being wronged. My son is in the same boat, I'm pretty mad about it. But, so are all the debaters, dancers, musicians, actors, model UN-ers, etc. Some of them will have opportunities to do their activity in the future, some won't. My older son graduated college last spring; he lost the end of his senior year, graduation, last semester of various activities, etc. It sucks for everyone.
For that matter, the Ivy League said that teams could play locally; that's more than some schools are getting. I hope that Ivy League baseball players are signed up for summer leagues (and I hope that those can happen).
@anotherparent posted:Let's be fair. On this forum, athletics is the most important thing there is. For the rest of the people at a college, sports seem pretty frivolous. If I were on a college debate team or in a musical group or a researcher, I'd be pretty pissed off if I were told I couldn't gather to debate or make music or attend a conference, but the baseball team could travel to play sports. And it would not be a question of virus safety, but a question about why a college would spend money to keep sports going but not spend money to allow other kinds of activities. I don't doubt that to do all activities safely (even just all sports) would cost a lot of money. Big-time televised college sports that make money are different. Ivy League sports, not really.
I agree that the players are being wronged. My son is in the same boat, I'm pretty mad about it. But, so are all the debaters, dancers, musicians, actors, model UN-ers, etc. Some of them will have opportunities to do their activity in the future, some won't. My older son graduated college last spring; he lost the end of his senior year, graduation, last semester of various activities, etc. It sucks for everyone.
For that matter, the Ivy League said that teams could play locally; that's more than some schools are getting. I hope that Ivy League baseball players are signed up for summer leagues (and I hope that those can happen).
Yes, I agree with this which is why the Ivy will get away with it. It still sucks.
The next question is:
Will players lose a year of eligibility if they play local teams? I have heard that may be a possibility...
@MidAtlanticDad posted:Seemed inevitable, and there it is.
Extremely disappointing if true. My heart goes out to all the players who have worked so hard to get the opportunity.
Very disappointing. I really feel for the players, many of whom basically lost two years. Can't really play "neighboring D'1s" as scheduled are set. Maybe a D2 or D3 who is looking to add games. As one tweet said, Hanover High School will play baseball, while neighboring Dartmouth won't. I don't think the P would have enough innings or batters enough ABs for a game here and there to lose eligibility. If you read the fine line, too, games outside if things improve. It's as though the Ivy is looking at play may start when 0 cases are there. As another poster said it's a question of if they WANT to make an effort to play. The timing of this was terrible just like allowing grad students to play announcement. Why string the players along. I guess they had to give the news today as NCAA games start tomorrow.
Yes I feel bad for the players but they knew going in the joining the most sanctimonious group in the land.
@anotherparent posted:Let's be fair. On this forum, athletics is the most important thing there is. For the rest of the people at a college, sports seem pretty frivolous. If I were on a college debate team or in a musical group or a researcher, I'd be pretty pissed off if I were told I couldn't gather to debate or make music or attend a conference, but the baseball team could travel to play sports. And it would not be a question of virus safety, but a question about why a college would spend money to keep sports going but not spend money to allow other kinds of activities. I don't doubt that to do all activities safely (even just all sports) would cost a lot of money. Big-time televised college sports that make money are different. Ivy League sports, not really.
If this is the case they'd get more respect if they were honest about it. This "we're doing it for the health and safety of..." is getting really tired. It's as close to zero risk to these students as anything they can do.
@Smitty28 posted:If this is the case they'd get more respect if they were honest about it. This "we're doing it for the health and safety of..." is getting really tired. It's as close to zero risk to these students as anything they can do.
I don’t see it as an issue of honesty. They have certainly been more honest than the NCAA (who initially said that athletes are students and they won’t be treated any differently than other students). More like arrogance. I would argue the Ivies took the most cautious approach last spring because they could afford to. They shut down campuses, continued to pay employees, and moved classes online. Great, the virus was new and health officials were scrambling to figure out how to react to it. The Ivies all have multi-billion dollar endowments. They could afford to shut everything down and wait for better information and guidance.
I think they painted themselves into this corner over the summer. While other schools were figuring out how to minimize the risk of bringing students back to campuses and classrooms (mostly out of financial necessity), the Ivies made the decision that no level of risk was tolerable. (The medical risks are mostly to faculty and staff, not students.) This is the luxury of wealth and privilege. The Ivies will suffer zero long-term effects from shutting down. Having taken this hardline approach, there’s no logical argument for exempting sports… or glee club, or Hasty Pudding, or other activities that students love.
Where I really fault these schools is in delaying the inevitable. They knew that nothing was going to change for the spring semester. The most optimistic vaccine predictions would not have changed anything. They should have made these decisions in December at the latest.
But not all the Ivies are shut down! Cornell has had students there all year. Penn is having in person graduation. Brown&Yale have had students there, and Dartmouth has had 1/2 the students there each term. I could keep going. There is a very mixed message with regard to sports.
@Twoboys posted:But not all the Ivies are shut down! Cornell has had students there all year. Penn is having in person graduation. Brown&Yale have had students there, and Dartmouth has had 1/2 the students there each term. I could keep going. There is a very mixed message with regard to sports.
Thanks, I hadn't seen this. Maybe factored into the delays? Differences of opinion?
Cornell has been exemplary, but they had good reasons. At many of the Ivies, most of the students live on-campus; Cornell has 65%+ living off-campus. They knew that those students would be back in their small town anyway, so they devised a plan to test all of them. Indiana did the same.
Even at Cornell, orchestras are shut down, official off-campus travel is shut down, etc. In fact, the Ivy statement, which DroppedThirdStrike posted on a different thread, is very clear:
"The public health measures now in effect at all Ivy League universities have been carefully designed to support our teaching and research missions while keeping our students, faculty, staff and neighboring communities safe. These policies include restrictions on travel, limitations on campus visitors, and other pandemic related regulations that are not compatible with the Ivy League’s usual competition schedule. In the Ivy League, these measures must apply equally to our athletics programs along with other academic and co-curricular activities."
I agree 100% with MidAtlanticDad, they should have announced this in December. I hope/assume that the coaches told their athletes that this was coming.
$ts not hard to f$gure out why th$s wasn’t announced unt$l now.
@MidAtlanticDad posted:
Where I really fault these schools is in delaying the inevitable. They knew that nothing was going to change for the spring semester. The most optimistic vaccine predictions would not have changed anything. They should have made these decisions in December at the latest.
Yes, but the timing reeks of disingenuousness. My son went back to Princeton a month ago and I was sent a bill, which I paid. Apparently students in the dorms and life on campus is ok. Now they decide that sports can't proceed, even though every other D1 conference in the country has figured out a way forward. I can't help but think of this as virtue signaling.
On a (sort of) related front: Does anyone have any insight into what the HA D3 conferences are planning for spring? (Don't ask me to define "HA"...) The two I have paid a little attention to are the NESCAC and Centennial. They both have yet to make an announcement about spring sports, other than "we will announce something later." Looking at a few school web sites, I don't see any 2021 schedules posted--no games at all listed yet. (My kid deferred his freshman year, so I don't have any firsthand info.)
It's getting pretty late... Do teams have conference schedules ready to unveil in case they are allowed to play? My sense is that cancelling is becoming inevitable given the delay.
No news on the conference level from Centennial or Nescac. Swarthmore unilaterally shut down all sports this year. Nescac not looking promising. Massachusetts infection #s are three times those of Iowa's, where the Midwest Conference (including Grinnell and UChicago) is a tentative go. Northwest Conference (Whitman, Willamette, Lewis and Clark) also a tentative go, in fact games got snowed out last weekend. Southern Athletic Association (Centre, Rhodes, Hendrix, DePauw) was also supposed to start last weekend but also weathered out. If it isn't one thing, it's another.
*BTW, I didn't mean to infer/imply/whatever that the schools I listed were the only H . schools in those conferences.
**Just read that the weather has forced most if not all SAA teams to play their games in Birmingham this weekend. Games all day long both Sat and Sun.
@Chico Escuela posted:On a (sort of) related front: Does anyone have any insight into what the HA D3 conferences are planning for spring? (Don't ask me to define "HA"...) The two I have paid a little attention to are the NESCAC and Centennial. They both have yet to make an announcement about spring sports, other than "we will announce something later." Looking at a few school web sites, I don't see any 2021 schedules posted--no games at all listed yet. (My kid deferred his freshman year, so I don't have any firsthand info.)
It's getting pretty late... Do teams have conference schedules ready to unveil in case they are allowed to play? My sense is that cancelling is becoming inevitable given the delay.
A player that I coached for years is at Haverford. He has decided to take a year off because information is so slow to come out and historical precedent isn’t encouraging. All signs are that he made the right call - which was a result of his dad making a good call too. Which was “I’m not paying 70 grand for you to sit in a room taking classes online and not playing baseball.”
Hard to argue with that call.
@smokeminside posted:No news on the conference level from Centennial or Nescac. Swarthmore unilaterally shut down all sports this year. Nescac not looking promising. Massachusetts infection #s are three times those of Iowa's, where the Midwest Conference (including Grinnell and UChicago) is a tentative go. Northwest Conference (Whitman, Willamette, Lewis and Clark) also a tentative go, in fact games got snowed out last weekend. Southern Athletic Association (Centre, Rhodes, Hendrix, DePauw) was also supposed to start last weekend but also weathered out. If it isn't one thing, it's another.
*BTW, I didn't mean to infer/imply/whatever that the schools I listed were the only H
. schools in those conferences.
**Just read that the weather has forced most if not all SAA teams to play their games in Birmingham this weekend. Games all day long both Sat and Sun.
The ODAC is set to play. I have to think the Centennial and NESAC are going to take their cues from Ivy's. Swarthmore cancelling so early def not a good market indicator. If I'm betting, I would say the Patriot League will play.
What's amazing to me is that in wrestling (wrestling!) the EIWA competed this season absent the traditionally powerhouse IVY teams (mainly Cornell and Princeton). Crazy that wrestling will have a modified version of a season, conference championships, and a national championship, and Northeast baseball will have missing teams and leagues this spring. I feel terribly for these players and programs.
January 27, 2021 NESCAC statement
Sounds like it’s time to break out the old soft shoe. They’re dancing. This looks like a “We haven’t yet crafted a response to the anticipated blow back and criticism from cancelling spring sports” statement.
Although COVID case numbers have started to decline, nationally and in our region, the numbers remain far higher than they were at the start of the fall semester. After a careful review, the NESCAC presidents have agreed that conditions will need to improve significantly in order to conduct conference competition this spring.