Hope this isn't a sign that Springs sports will be cancelled...
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It's ridiculous they are just now making this decision. This applies to current Ivy senior student athletes which of course includes all sports--Fall, Winter, and Spring.
This should have been decided when they made the decision to cancel Fall and Winter sports. BEFORE grad-school applications were due!
Which is why this really makes me think they will cancel Spring sports--by "senior student athletes" they really mean the kids that will now miss TWO Spring seasons--last year's Junior's!
Do you think that seniors who play spring sports were warned about this by their coaches, back in December?
I'm sure that many student athletes who go to expensive residential colleges in conferences that have not yet announced about spring, had to figure out whether to take online classes (in case sports happened) or to take the semester off. The cynical side of me says that the conferences deliberately didn't announce until classes had started, so as to maximize enrollment.
Wasn't it discussed on another thread, that Yale lacrosse doesn't have enough players to field a team, even if the Ivy League allows them to play?
I just don't get this. Using Harvard as an example, unless you were planning for years to go to the Medical School or the Law School you are not going to be able to pivot at the last minute and get in. The Dental School, Divinity School, School of Engineering are obviously too specialized. The Business School usually requires a couple of years of work experience. So you are down to the Graduate School of Arts and Sciences. So for about $50,000 (plus living expenses) you get to tack another year of liberal arts study on to your education.
I'm okay with it, but why bother. This is going to apply to such a small number of people that it almost isn't worth the effort unless it is about optics and to say that they tried to accommodate their student athletes (at the 11th hour) as the horse already left the barn. Honestly, I feel for all the Ivy student-athletes caught in the middle of this pandemic. Their lives and college experience didn't turn out as expected after a lot of hard work to get this opportunity.
I think this is a such a minimal gesture by the Ivy League Presidents. There are a handful of graduating Ivy students that had already entered the portal to play as graduate students elsewhere.
@K9 posted:I just don't get this. Using Harvard as an example, unless you were planning for years to go to the Medical School or the Law School you are not going to be able to pivot at the last minute and get in. The Dental School, Divinity School, School of Engineering are obviously too specialized. The Business School usually requires a couple of years of work experience. So you are down to the Graduate School of Arts and Sciences. So for about $50,000 (plus living expenses) you get to tack another year of liberal arts study on to your education.
Some of the Ivies charge 10% of the parents annual income until it reaches 250K. For 10K or less maybe a kid hangs around. But I doubt many Ivy grads will hang around to play. It wouldn’t be a good idea to pass on quality professional and grad opportunities.
If I’m in an Ivy graduate school program I’m not wasting time and focus on a sport. You’re in the fast lane in an Ivy grad school. You’re competing with the best of the best at the top of the academic world.
You forgot the Kennedy School btw.
@anotherparent posted:Do you think that seniors who play spring sports were warned about this by their coaches, back in December?
I'm sure that many student athletes who go to expensive residential colleges in conferences that have not yet announced about spring, had to figure out whether to take online classes (in case sports happened) or to take the semester off. The cynical side of me says that the conferences deliberately didn't announce until classes had started, so as to maximize enrollment.
Wasn't it discussed on another thread, that Yale lacrosse doesn't have enough players to field a team, even if the Ivy League allows them to play?
Yale LaCrosse sensed it would get nixed and so enough "opted out" so they couldn't field a team. @anotherparent I don't think you are cynical at all. The first thing that got Ivy players mad was that they decision not to "yet" announce a spring schedule was so late, that they had already enrolled and started classes (paying tuition). Now to offer this "allowance" so late in the game, so to speak.
Players haven't taken GRE/LSAT or prepped for it. How many are on the roster that would qualify the IVY LEAGUE grad schools? Unlike, undergrad acceptances, no coaches tip either with admissions. This is really for the league to make itself look good. I really thought the League would play once the Patriot League put something together (2 divisions) to lessen travel. I know they haven't announced the season is over, but...
This just out. A very big donor alum (Yale Law School) offered to build a new state of the art "bubble" which would allow both women's and men's Lacrosse in the Ivy League to play this season. The donor also played LAX undergrad. The league declined the offer. Huh?
@Ripken Fan posted:This just out. A very big donor alum (Yale Law School) offered to build a new state of the art "bubble" which would allow both women's and men's Lacrosse in the Ivy League to play this season. The donor also played LAX undergrad. The league declined the offer. Huh?
Not surprising considering recent politics and attitudes towards so-called sports of privilege. They'd rather cut off their nose to spite their face than accept money for this.
if the Alumni used their heads instead of their hearts they would just cut them off completely. you want to watch an Ivy squirm, shut off the flow.
Sadly, ivies can afford to be that way. They do dung like that across all their programs. I am both angry and envious when institutions like those have unlimited demand of attendance and resources and freely operate with impunity.
A little insight: Apparently Yale said yes, and the league declined.
@Twoboys posted:You forgot the Kennedy School btw.
Actually no, I thought it went without saying that no self respecting Harvard grad would waste his time there.
@Ripken Fan posted:This just out. A very big donor alum (Yale Law School) offered to build a new state of the art "bubble" which would allow both women's and men's Lacrosse in the Ivy League to play this season. The donor also played LAX undergrad. The league declined the offer. Huh?
I think Mr Tsai's heart is in the right place. It was one heck of generous gesture. As I read the article I was thinking...what does this mean for the other sports and then sure enough the authors projected that as a possible reason it got shot down. The other reason is who want to travel from Hanover (189 mi), Ithaca (258mi), Princeton (130mi), Philadelphia (173 mi) to play all away lacrosse games every week. That is a huge logistical and academic burden. Lets face it lacrosse is one of the fastest growing sports in the United States, but it isn't bringing in thousands of fans....no Ivy League sport is bringing in thousands except possibly hockey... I think lacrosse is popular at the Ivys but not popular enough to put some demands on the ADs and Presidents. So, my point is this was a great idea but I just don't see it having legs unless they were to include more sports and that was cost prohibitive.
JMO
Idk Yale mens lax won the national championship in 2018. There were LOTS of fans at the playoffs. We have friends on the team. And yes both did not enroll in classes this year to save their eligibility, but have been in New Haven.
And K9 -- no need to be an a$$. I am a self respecting harvard grad - ARE YOU? And if you think the K School is not prominent enough, you have your head up what I just called you. Plus it is one place some of the athletes might have interest in as they do take a very limited number straight from school. Know what you are talking (or writing about) before you open up your mouth to be rude intentionally and without reason. I could list a whole bunch of impressive grads and a whole bunch of big donors (or impressive faculty) if you need me to. Just ask nicely.
@fenwaysouth posted:..no Ivy League sport is bringing in thousands except possibly hockey...
I was watching Capitals @Penguins last night. The announcers made a big point how there were two graduates from Brown University (one from each team) on the ice at the same time!
@Ripken Fan posted:I was watching Capitals @Penguins last night. The announcers made a big point how there were two graduates from Brown University (one from each team) on the ice at the same time!
One Brown graduate on an NHL rink would be an anomaly. Brown sucks at hockey. Infrequently they have back to back .500+ seasons.
As for Ivy hockey attendance there are sixty teams. Going back two years (normality) Cornell was the #1 Ivy at #22. Yale at #26 was the only other Ivy in the top half.
Seemed inevitable, and there it is.
@MidAtlanticDad posted:Seemed inevitable, and there it is.
The future leaders of America cowering rather than leading.
IMO it has been proven that baseball can be played safely. There is no science or any other tangible reason that suggests it’s too dangerous. It really boils down to whether or not schools, conferences & government officials want baseball to be played. Ivy League and other HA schools think the optics would be bad (I disagree) and don’t want to play. In the process they are wronging a countless number of student athletes that have worked for 10 years or more to achieve personal goals. Disgusting.
Let's be fair. On this forum, athletics is the most important thing there is. For the rest of the people at a college, sports seem pretty frivolous. If I were on a college debate team or in a musical group or a researcher, I'd be pretty pissed off if I were told I couldn't gather to debate or make music or attend a conference, but the baseball team could travel to play sports. And it would not be a question of virus safety, but a question about why a college would spend money to keep sports going but not spend money to allow other kinds of activities. I don't doubt that to do all activities safely (even just all sports) would cost a lot of money. Big-time televised college sports that make money are different. Ivy League sports, not really.
I agree that the players are being wronged. My son is in the same boat, I'm pretty mad about it. But, so are all the debaters, dancers, musicians, actors, model UN-ers, etc. Some of them will have opportunities to do their activity in the future, some won't. My older son graduated college last spring; he lost the end of his senior year, graduation, last semester of various activities, etc. It sucks for everyone.
For that matter, the Ivy League said that teams could play locally; that's more than some schools are getting. I hope that Ivy League baseball players are signed up for summer leagues (and I hope that those can happen).
@anotherparent posted:Let's be fair. On this forum, athletics is the most important thing there is. For the rest of the people at a college, sports seem pretty frivolous. If I were on a college debate team or in a musical group or a researcher, I'd be pretty pissed off if I were told I couldn't gather to debate or make music or attend a conference, but the baseball team could travel to play sports. And it would not be a question of virus safety, but a question about why a college would spend money to keep sports going but not spend money to allow other kinds of activities. I don't doubt that to do all activities safely (even just all sports) would cost a lot of money. Big-time televised college sports that make money are different. Ivy League sports, not really.
I agree that the players are being wronged. My son is in the same boat, I'm pretty mad about it. But, so are all the debaters, dancers, musicians, actors, model UN-ers, etc. Some of them will have opportunities to do their activity in the future, some won't. My older son graduated college last spring; he lost the end of his senior year, graduation, last semester of various activities, etc. It sucks for everyone.
For that matter, the Ivy League said that teams could play locally; that's more than some schools are getting. I hope that Ivy League baseball players are signed up for summer leagues (and I hope that those can happen).
Yes, I agree with this which is why the Ivy will get away with it. It still sucks.
The next question is:
Will players lose a year of eligibility if they play local teams? I have heard that may be a possibility...
@MidAtlanticDad posted:Seemed inevitable, and there it is.
Extremely disappointing if true. My heart goes out to all the players who have worked so hard to get the opportunity.
Very disappointing. I really feel for the players, many of whom basically lost two years. Can't really play "neighboring D'1s" as scheduled are set. Maybe a D2 or D3 who is looking to add games. As one tweet said, Hanover High School will play baseball, while neighboring Dartmouth won't. I don't think the P would have enough innings or batters enough ABs for a game here and there to lose eligibility. If you read the fine line, too, games outside if things improve. It's as though the Ivy is looking at play may start when 0 cases are there. As another poster said it's a question of if they WANT to make an effort to play. The timing of this was terrible just like allowing grad students to play announcement. Why string the players along. I guess they had to give the news today as NCAA games start tomorrow.
Yes I feel bad for the players but they knew going in the joining the most sanctimonious group in the land.
@anotherparent posted:Let's be fair. On this forum, athletics is the most important thing there is. For the rest of the people at a college, sports seem pretty frivolous. If I were on a college debate team or in a musical group or a researcher, I'd be pretty pissed off if I were told I couldn't gather to debate or make music or attend a conference, but the baseball team could travel to play sports. And it would not be a question of virus safety, but a question about why a college would spend money to keep sports going but not spend money to allow other kinds of activities. I don't doubt that to do all activities safely (even just all sports) would cost a lot of money. Big-time televised college sports that make money are different. Ivy League sports, not really.
If this is the case they'd get more respect if they were honest about it. This "we're doing it for the health and safety of..." is getting really tired. It's as close to zero risk to these students as anything they can do.
@Smitty28 posted:If this is the case they'd get more respect if they were honest about it. This "we're doing it for the health and safety of..." is getting really tired. It's as close to zero risk to these students as anything they can do.
I don’t see it as an issue of honesty. They have certainly been more honest than the NCAA (who initially said that athletes are students and they won’t be treated any differently than other students). More like arrogance. I would argue the Ivies took the most cautious approach last spring because they could afford to. They shut down campuses, continued to pay employees, and moved classes online. Great, the virus was new and health officials were scrambling to figure out how to react to it. The Ivies all have multi-billion dollar endowments. They could afford to shut everything down and wait for better information and guidance.
I think they painted themselves into this corner over the summer. While other schools were figuring out how to minimize the risk of bringing students back to campuses and classrooms (mostly out of financial necessity), the Ivies made the decision that no level of risk was tolerable. (The medical risks are mostly to faculty and staff, not students.) This is the luxury of wealth and privilege. The Ivies will suffer zero long-term effects from shutting down. Having taken this hardline approach, there’s no logical argument for exempting sports… or glee club, or Hasty Pudding, or other activities that students love.
Where I really fault these schools is in delaying the inevitable. They knew that nothing was going to change for the spring semester. The most optimistic vaccine predictions would not have changed anything. They should have made these decisions in December at the latest.
But not all the Ivies are shut down! Cornell has had students there all year. Penn is having in person graduation. Brown&Yale have had students there, and Dartmouth has had 1/2 the students there each term. I could keep going. There is a very mixed message with regard to sports.
@Twoboys posted:But not all the Ivies are shut down! Cornell has had students there all year. Penn is having in person graduation. Brown&Yale have had students there, and Dartmouth has had 1/2 the students there each term. I could keep going. There is a very mixed message with regard to sports.
Thanks, I hadn't seen this. Maybe factored into the delays? Differences of opinion?
Cornell has been exemplary, but they had good reasons. At many of the Ivies, most of the students live on-campus; Cornell has 65%+ living off-campus. They knew that those students would be back in their small town anyway, so they devised a plan to test all of them. Indiana did the same.
Even at Cornell, orchestras are shut down, official off-campus travel is shut down, etc. In fact, the Ivy statement, which DroppedThirdStrike posted on a different thread, is very clear:
"The public health measures now in effect at all Ivy League universities have been carefully designed to support our teaching and research missions while keeping our students, faculty, staff and neighboring communities safe. These policies include restrictions on travel, limitations on campus visitors, and other pandemic related regulations that are not compatible with the Ivy League’s usual competition schedule. In the Ivy League, these measures must apply equally to our athletics programs along with other academic and co-curricular activities."
I agree 100% with MidAtlanticDad, they should have announced this in December. I hope/assume that the coaches told their athletes that this was coming.
$ts not hard to f$gure out why th$s wasn’t announced unt$l now.
@MidAtlanticDad posted:
Where I really fault these schools is in delaying the inevitable. They knew that nothing was going to change for the spring semester. The most optimistic vaccine predictions would not have changed anything. They should have made these decisions in December at the latest.
Yes, but the timing reeks of disingenuousness. My son went back to Princeton a month ago and I was sent a bill, which I paid. Apparently students in the dorms and life on campus is ok. Now they decide that sports can't proceed, even though every other D1 conference in the country has figured out a way forward. I can't help but think of this as virtue signaling.
On a (sort of) related front: Does anyone have any insight into what the HA D3 conferences are planning for spring? (Don't ask me to define "HA"...) The two I have paid a little attention to are the NESCAC and Centennial. They both have yet to make an announcement about spring sports, other than "we will announce something later." Looking at a few school web sites, I don't see any 2021 schedules posted--no games at all listed yet. (My kid deferred his freshman year, so I don't have any firsthand info.)
It's getting pretty late... Do teams have conference schedules ready to unveil in case they are allowed to play? My sense is that cancelling is becoming inevitable given the delay.
No news on the conference level from Centennial or Nescac. Swarthmore unilaterally shut down all sports this year. Nescac not looking promising. Massachusetts infection #s are three times those of Iowa's, where the Midwest Conference (including Grinnell and UChicago) is a tentative go. Northwest Conference (Whitman, Willamette, Lewis and Clark) also a tentative go, in fact games got snowed out last weekend. Southern Athletic Association (Centre, Rhodes, Hendrix, DePauw) was also supposed to start last weekend but also weathered out. If it isn't one thing, it's another.
*BTW, I didn't mean to infer/imply/whatever that the schools I listed were the only H . schools in those conferences.
**Just read that the weather has forced most if not all SAA teams to play their games in Birmingham this weekend. Games all day long both Sat and Sun.
@Chico Escuela posted:On a (sort of) related front: Does anyone have any insight into what the HA D3 conferences are planning for spring? (Don't ask me to define "HA"...) The two I have paid a little attention to are the NESCAC and Centennial. They both have yet to make an announcement about spring sports, other than "we will announce something later." Looking at a few school web sites, I don't see any 2021 schedules posted--no games at all listed yet. (My kid deferred his freshman year, so I don't have any firsthand info.)
It's getting pretty late... Do teams have conference schedules ready to unveil in case they are allowed to play? My sense is that cancelling is becoming inevitable given the delay.
A player that I coached for years is at Haverford. He has decided to take a year off because information is so slow to come out and historical precedent isn’t encouraging. All signs are that he made the right call - which was a result of his dad making a good call too. Which was “I’m not paying 70 grand for you to sit in a room taking classes online and not playing baseball.”
Hard to argue with that call.
@smokeminside posted:No news on the conference level from Centennial or Nescac. Swarthmore unilaterally shut down all sports this year. Nescac not looking promising. Massachusetts infection #s are three times those of Iowa's, where the Midwest Conference (including Grinnell and UChicago) is a tentative go. Northwest Conference (Whitman, Willamette, Lewis and Clark) also a tentative go, in fact games got snowed out last weekend. Southern Athletic Association (Centre, Rhodes, Hendrix, DePauw) was also supposed to start last weekend but also weathered out. If it isn't one thing, it's another.
*BTW, I didn't mean to infer/imply/whatever that the schools I listed were the only H
. schools in those conferences.
**Just read that the weather has forced most if not all SAA teams to play their games in Birmingham this weekend. Games all day long both Sat and Sun.
The ODAC is set to play. I have to think the Centennial and NESAC are going to take their cues from Ivy's. Swarthmore cancelling so early def not a good market indicator. If I'm betting, I would say the Patriot League will play.
What's amazing to me is that in wrestling (wrestling!) the EIWA competed this season absent the traditionally powerhouse IVY teams (mainly Cornell and Princeton). Crazy that wrestling will have a modified version of a season, conference championships, and a national championship, and Northeast baseball will have missing teams and leagues this spring. I feel terribly for these players and programs.
January 27, 2021 NESCAC statement
Sounds like it’s time to break out the old soft shoe. They’re dancing. This looks like a “We haven’t yet crafted a response to the anticipated blow back and criticism from cancelling spring sports” statement.
Although COVID case numbers have started to decline, nationally and in our region, the numbers remain far higher than they were at the start of the fall semester. After a careful review, the NESCAC presidents have agreed that conditions will need to improve significantly in order to conduct conference competition this spring.
But that NESCAC statement kicking the can down the road was 3 weeks ago. Seems like they have to say something definitive soon. (Although by not saying anything, it’s looking like they have effectively decided.)
@Chico Escuela posted:But that NESCAC statement kicking the can down the road was 3 weeks ago. Seems like they have to say something definitive soon. (Although by not saying anything, it’s looking like they have effectively decided.)
that's how my son (and I) are viewing it.
This is a bold public statement from an employee, I applaud him.
@old_school posted:This is a bold public statement from an employee, I applaud him.
Now we can watch for his firing or unexpected resignation. I’m guessing the Brown president won’t care for the public statement and not being on board with the consensus. What surprises me is I expected to see a more senior baseball coach being this bold. The coach is in his thirties.
@RJM posted:Now we can watch for his firing or unexpected resignation. I’m guessing the Brown president won’t care for the public statement and not being on board with the consensus. What surprises me is I expected to see a more senior baseball coach being this bold. The coach is in his thirties.
It's a bold statement, and IMO opinion an admirable one. He's standing up for his players and his program. And my perspective is that of a parent who has been fairly conservative throughout the year, particularly last spring when this was all new and the science was far hazier. Now, it's very clear. Baseball is an outdoor sport, one which can be practiced and played safely. This will only continue to be more true as vaccination distribution increases over the Spring. If, for whatever reason, variants cause a reversal of this situation, programs and schools can adjust accordingly. Their Coach had the stones to say this publicly, and if Brown does take punitive action against him I'm sure he will get snapped up elsewhere.
I applaud Brown’s coach for speaking up. The coaches have been muzzled for way too long.
I realize now that the season was cancelled last summer as every school announced their plans for the school year, none of which were allowing all students on campus. To announce this prematurely was an indication the season was not going to happen. Not a single Ivy team would have all their players on-campus. I knew then it was over but was strung along because coaches told players if Ivy announced a season the schools would do everything within their power to get kids on campus. But that is simply ridiculous as it would not be an easy thing to do once the wheels had been set in motion.
UPenn already has a player in the transfer portal and I cannot blame him for being there as he was listed as a top 10 round pick this year. No season makes it tough to maintain your draft stock.
As hard as last season’s cancellation was, it was NOTHING compared to this season’s Ivy cancellation.
its one thing to miss out on a season like everyone else, it is an entirely different thing to watch your peers play while you cannot.
Yep, the only way it could have worked would be if everyone did the Cornell thing and tested students both on and off campus. I'm sure that is true at most D1 schools, many of which have mostly off-campus housing. That isn't the case for most Ivies.
Did the coaches not tell the players this back in November? I think it's one thing to speak out publicly (whether that was wise or not), but surely the coaches had figured this out long ago. What were they telling their players? We were told that as long as there was a chance that some students could return to campus, there was a chance that sports could happen, but both coach and school were pretty honest that it was unlikely, and many players took the semester (or year) off from school.
I am sure ALL the Ivies test both on-campus and off-campus students. Definitely true for the ones I am aware of. For example, at Dartmouth, off campus kids get tested even though they currently are not allowed on campus, which of course excludes them from athletic participation.
Because of policies like this, most students, including athletes, opted to stay away if they were not approved to be on-campus for the term.
I believe coaches were optimistic schools would do everything within their power to get students on campus if Ivy announced that athletics would be played.
I believe most coaches are guilty of assuming that the schools would act like grownups and make mature decisions like every other conference in the entire country...but nope that didn’t happen.
The new Ivy saying is, “You may be beating us now. But we’ll be watching you play later.”
The irony is the reputation for developing leaders of all fields and yet the actual leaders have collectively failed to lead. Unless you call sitting at home and learning via zoom leading.
@RJM posted:Now we can watch for his firing or unexpected resignation. I’m guessing the Brown president won’t care for the public statement and not being on board with the consensus. What surprises me is I expected to see a more senior baseball coach being this bold. The coach is in his thirties.
that would be a hell of a story considering the some of the extreme teachings by So many professors.
I saw Cressey is marketing to guys whose seasons were cancelled. Great place to go to get better if your team/school isn’t playing.
An Ivy pitcher who has was throwing weekly bullpens to my son left for the Cressey program almost 2 weeks ago. The way he was throwing pre-Cressey was impressive...excited to hear how he looks post. LHP sitting 91-92 who touched 95 in his last couple of pens. Might get drafted before throwing an inning for his Ivy!!!
On the plus side... I was watching some nice performances by Ivy league grads this weekend. One got a win and a hold over #1 Florida. Another pitched 4 solid innings for Rice. Another homered for Duke. And another Ivy grad pitched 4 scoreless innings for BC.
There were a handful of Ivy guys hitting and throwing pens when we were there a couple weeks ago. I thought it was odd because most of the college guys had gone back to school by then
I think everybody can agree the Ivy Presidents have handled the Covid-19 communication, leadership, etc poorly for Ivy athletics. I was giving them a slight break in their 2020 Covid policy, but there are no excuses for lack of communication in 2021.
I've read everybody's post in this thread and I think the real point has been missed. The bottom line is the Ivy Presidents really don't rank athletics high on their big-picture priority list. There I said it, and this isn't the first time I've kicked the hornets nest. They view and treat students and student/athletes as the same.
Athletics play a very minor role on an Ivy campus. Most programs are self funded. Athletics do not bring in revenue. Tens of thousands of people aren't flocking to an Ivy athletic event...it is nothing like an Ohio State/Michigan football game or an ACC baseball game. Almost all of the Ivy recruited student athletes that attend one of these schools is focused on their studies, and they have a competitive passion for a sport that will end when they graduate. My son and I knew this when he committed...there was going to be no hoopla with regards to Ivy athletics. If my son wanted hoopla, he would have selected a different D1 school. Frankly I'm a lot surprised that some folks are expecting an "Ivy leopard to change its spots". Covid has changed lives across the globe. It sucks and we've all had to adapt to a new way of life. My heart goes out to those that have worked hard to get that Ivy baseball opportunity and they are still waiting to play.
I'm not defending the Ivy Presidents actions or inactions but I'm pointing out what is real. In my world, actions speak louder than words and the actions of the Ivy Presidents tell me everything I need to know about how they view Ivy athletics relative to the rest of the student body...they are one and the same and treated as one and the same. Their minds are about making money, managing a pile of money, corporate partnerships, research and bringing in the best professors and students they can get.
Again, just my two cents.....
Fenway dropping the truth bomb.
The Ivy has finally officially confirmed what everyone has always known.
@fenwaysouth posted:.... In my world, actions speak louder than words and the actions of the Ivy Presidents tell me everything I need to know about how they view Ivy athletics relative to the rest of the student body...they are one and the same and treated as one and the same. ....
Fenway, I definitely agree that the timing and (lack of) communication about spring 2021 athletics has been abysmal, and not just at the Ivies (looking at you NESCAC and Centennial...). But I'm confused by parts of your post: Do you think the Ivies ought to treat athletes differently than other students? Or put another way, should they treat other student activities differently than sports?
I think it's understandable (but unfortunate) that at schools that make millions of dollars on basketball and football, sports are a bigger priority than just about anything else. And because of Title IX and some other issues, non-revenue sports are going to get a leg up at those schools, too. But IMO colleges aren't (or shouldn't be) in the business of big-dollar athletics promotion. If the orchestra, debate team, etc. aren't being allowed to travel to off-campus venues (and I have no idea whether they are), then I wouldn't expect Ivy or D3 athletic teams to do so. Granted, baseball is outdoors; so maybe the comparison ought to be to the marching band or ultimate frisbee club. My point is that comparable activities being treated comparably doesn't seem to me like grounds to complain--and I say that as someone whose kids all chose athletics as essentially their only activities outside of classes.
I understand criticizing university leaders for not allowing their students to engage in activities that other schools in their regions deem safe. But I don't get complaining that athletics aren't given more favorable treatment than other activities (if that is what are arguing).
I'll just toss this out there, too: The Ivies are among a small handful of schools that don't need sports to raise their profiles, and don't have to worry about alienating applicants by closing their campuses. (Ivy applications set records in 2021. So did a lot of other highly selective schools that closed their campuses in 2020.) These schools also have huge endowments, notwithstanding their attempts to plead poverty lately. Seems to me that if anyone is making decisions for the right reasons, it should be the schools that don't have to worry about negative fallout from cancelling parts of the normal college experience. Every school presumably faces essentially the same pressures of potential liability, bad PR, etc. But some schools also need to stay open to keep applicants and tuition dollars coming in. The Ivies and a few other institutions are much freer from those latter pressures than other schools. Maybe they made the wrong decision anyhow, but seems to me their motivations ought to be less suspect than other institutions. The president of XYZ University gets advice from his medical school, his lawyers, his alumni association and his admissions department--then also factors in the sports revenues and applicants s/he stands to lose--and makes a decision about whether to participate in athletics. The president of an Ivy gets similar advice, but without sports dollars or applicant stats in the calculation. Again, the Ivy may come to the wrong conclusion, but purely on the basis of motivations, I don't see a reason to expect them to do worse than other schools.
Just sayin'... I honestly do not have a strong opinion about playing spring sports in 2021. (I also have no dog in the fight, because my son took a gap year.) And before you argue with me about legal liability and media coverage of the pandemic and so on, I will reiterate: My point is that the Ivies face the same environment (however skewed you think it may be) as other schools, but without the pressure of athletic revenues or applicant stats, which don't seem like they ought to figure into public health questions.
I agree with everything Chico says - except that I do have a dog in the fight, and I'm mad about it. If you had told my son that by choosing his school, he would likely lose a year of baseball (and college life) because his school doesn't take athletics more seriously than other extracurrics, would he have chosen somewhere else? But who could possibly have guessed that we would have a once-a-century pandemic?
I guess all those athletes now coming through high school can factor that into their thinking; the pandemic has laid this bare, as it has so many other things. Do you think this will impact Ivy athletic recruiting?
I noticed that about 10 D1 series were cancelled this weekend due to COVID. And what about all the kids on way-overloaded rosters who are supposed to follow stringent covid protocols (and thus lose some normality) but don't get into games? The grass is not necessarily greener.
Not only are sports not important to the university. They’re not important to a lot of the students. In fact, they often look down at athletes for getting priority on acceptance.
My cousin is a reasonable, but not diehard sports fan. He went to Harvard. He was completely unaware when they won a national championship in hockey. And he lived in Boston at the time. His sister went to Yale. When Yale won a national championship she was unaware they had a hockey team.
Then there’s the third cousin who went to Penn. He also went to Michigan Law. A lot of people are unaware he attended an Ivy. But they know he went to Michigan due to his constant basketball and football talk.
@RJM posted:Not only are sports not important to the university. They’re not important to a lot of the students.
This is a good point, RJM. UChicago students and alumni typically pay more attention to the announcements of Nobel Prizes each year than to how their athletic teams are doing. IMO, that's how a university should operate--but others have different views. Football weekends were a big factor in the school choices of a lot of young folks I know.
anotherparent makes a good point: If I'm an athlete, maybe I want to choose a school that does prioritize sports. (In fact, I'd say one reason my son chose his college is because they put a relatively high emphasis on sports for a HA D3.)
Probably goes without saying, but I do feel badly for Ivy athletes who will be watching the rest of D1 play. That's worse than just having your own season cancelled.
From a consumer standpoint the position is simple and easy to understand. If you are serious about playing any sport, don’t attend an Ivy League school or a HA D3 school. By definition those schools treat athletes no differently than any other student and sports are not important to them. I think the past 12 months have brought that into focus whereas in the past it was not fully understood by prospective student athletes and their parents. Kinda like you don’t go to any of the Military Academies with sports as the highest priority.
Chico,
A couple things....
What I'm attempting to point out is a separation between; Covid policy planning, implementation and communication by the Ivys. My point is the Covid planning and implementation by Ivys and others is as I would expect it (no surprises here)....again athletics is not a huge part of the overall University so they are going to provide one policy for the whole student body irregardless of extracurricular activity. People go to these schools to get a great education...that is their core value prop and they are sticking to it. My other point is the Covid communicaton has been terrible, and clearly everybody agrees.
Your question: But I'm confused by parts of your post: Do you think the Ivies ought to treat athletes differently than other students? Or put another way, should they treat other student activities differently than sports?
It isn't what I think that is important. What is important is what it is....clearly the Ivys treat their athletes as normal students first and foremost. Athletes get no preferential treatment or advantages...that is pretty much etched in stone. Nobody gets any preferential treatment or advantages. My understanding is they are treating student activities no differently than sports which is consistent with their policy. As RJM points out, being an athlete can actually be detriment as faculty and students initially look down on athletes until they prove themselves in the classroom. My son witnessed this first hand and I know others that experienced it. In the eyes of the President, his campus is made up of one big student body. There is no right or wrong here. It is important to know ahead of time what that student-athlete experience is going to look like at these schools.
This is purely conjecture on my part, but I'm willing to bet someone a pint of Guinness that the Ivy University Presidents handed their policies down to each Student Affairs Director and the Athletic Directors to see if they could make sports work. They did a risk assessment, and made a recommendation back to the President before he got together with his peers. ADs just aren't going to have a lot of political juice among these schools and that is probably where it died on the vine. If you put yourself in the ADs shoes, how are you going to financially justify spending a lot of money (OPEX) and taking a large risk that can do very little for the overall University? I think other schools are more willing to take that risk and ADs are better positioned to influence it. My two younger sons went to an ACC school and a Big South school. Their ADs and HCs are very well known and very well connected. Any body who follows sports in our area knows who they are. They are playing baseball this Spring. Again, its not right or wrong it is just the way it is.
Again, JMO.
For those who may be unaware - the chairperson of the NCAA Division 1 council is Penn's AD, Grace Calhoun. I don't know how much pull she has with the Penn administration, but she has it at the NCAA.
One of the previous posts mentioned debate, orchestra, and other activities. I don't see why those activities can't move forward either. If you have to, move them outside and socially distance them. If you care at all about these students and their activities, no matter what they are, figure it out. If you don't care, then don't find a solution.
Bottom line is there are 300 Division 1 baseball programs. 292 of them have figured out how to play. The Ivy likes to present themselves as leadership institutions. I'll let the group decide if they have shown any leadership during this time.
A couple years ago TBPT's son did a Harvard camp because we were there for vacation and Harvard is/was (I think it has slipped) his dream school. There were a couple kids there the coach was recruiting who had offers at other big D1 baseball programs. The coach spent most of his speech trying to convince those players and their parents that playing baseball at Harvard would offer the same opportunities at Big State U. I would think these types of kids will not consider an Ivy for a while now.
Had a brief but telling conversation with my senior HA player yesterday. The conference he's in still hasn't made a decision but he thinks the writing's on the wall, especially considering the Ivy League decision.
He also says he's "over it." Ah, blithe spirit. I pointed out that over a third of the students at his college are varsity athletes. He pointed out that many of his school's peer institutions as well as at least two other HA-ish conferences had also dropped spring sports. The schools in those conferences have a high number of varsity athletes, as well. He also pointed out that theater kids, to name one group suffering the same fate as athletes, had had their programs shut down, too.
I asked him to start thinking with his heart. He smiled and condescendingly shook his head, as if to say, "Dad, oh, Dad, you'll figure it out someday."
I said, "As long as I see other D3 schools playing games via their college's digital options, I'm not gonna get over it."
He said, "Don't watch that stuff. Watch "The Thin Red Line" or "Interstellar" or "Mission Impossible." You know, one of those philosophical films you like so much. You'll be happier. Good talk, Dad. I'm going surfing. Love ya."
Remembered this cartoon I came across many years ago when I was doing college admission counseling. Just change the caption to:
"Don't cry, Mom. Lots of parents have children who lost half of their college athletic careers to COVID-19 and the parents still went on to live happy, fulfilled lives."
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Smoke, if everyone's sons could go surfing, it all might seem better to them, too!
Of course, the real answer is that the Ivy League should be D3. They don't give scholarships anyway, what do they really gain by being D1? Maybe a tiny bit of t.v. revenue? They attract a better level of athletes, but why do they care about that? Is it the hockey, rowing, and fencing? Alumni want it?
@anotherparent posted:Smoke, if everyone's sons could go surfing, it all might seem better to them, too!
Of course, the real answer is that the Ivy League should be D3. They don't give scholarships anyway, what do they really gain by being D1? Maybe a tiny bit of t.v. revenue? They attract a better level of athletes, but why do they care about that? Is it the hockey, rowing, and fencing? Alumni want it?
Alumni of teams definitely do. And, to your point, there are certain sports where an Ivy program is consistently competitive at the highest levels. And not just hockey, crew and fencing. Cornell is a Top-10 wrestling program, and Princeton is often very competitive as well. Yale has been in natty's for lax, Dartmouth for skiing, etc. Not revenue generating, TV sports, but certainly not insignificant. Maybe the solve would be splitting divisions, keep the few sports you can compete in D1 and everything else goes D3?
Not sure, but go back to the original point...You can't help but feel awful for the players and the coaches. Not what anyone signed up for.
@smokeminside posted:Remembered this cartoon I came across many years ago when I was doing college admission counseling. Just change the caption to:
"Don't cry, Mom. Lots of parents have children who lost half of their college athletic careers to COVID-19 and they went on to live happy, fulfilled lives."
Smoke, we know the kids will be okay. The question is: will the parents be?
I think (?) the rule is that D3 schools may only offer, at most, one D1 sport for men, and one for women. I imagine the Ivies would be reluctant to have to drop all but, say, hockey to D3. And to hold the conference together, I think all or most of the members would need to choose to keep the same sport in D1 (rather than have, say four Ivy League D1 hockey teams and four D3.)
The recent decision about spring sports may drive away a few recruits. But it seems to me the great majority of Ivy players are still going to be interested in the the cachet that comes with degrees from those schools. (Not saying the hype is justified--just observing that the hype is out there.) Most Ivy baseball players aren't MLB prospects and aren't being recruited by top D1 programs. As a 2021 or later HS grad, I'd feel pretty safe betting that the 2020 and '21 seasons are a proverbial "black swan," and that baseball will be played in Cambridge, New Haven, et al. in future springs. (Famous last words, I know...)
- @Chico Escuela posted:
I think (?) the rule is that D3 schools may only offer, at most, one D1 sport for men, and one for women. I imagine the Ivies would be reluctant to have to drop all but, say, hockey to D3. And to hold the conference together, I think all or most of the members would need to choose to keep the same sport in D1 (rather than have, say four Ivy League D1 hockey teams and four D3.)
The recent decision about spring sports may drive away a few recruits. But it seems to me the great majority of Ivy players are still going to be interested in the the cachet that comes with degrees from those schools. (Not saying the hype is justified--just observing that the hype is out there.) Most Ivy baseball players aren't MLB prospects and aren't being recruited by top D1 programs. As a 2021 or later HS grad, I'd feel pretty safe betting that the 2020 and '21 seasons are a proverbial "black swan," and that baseball will be played in Cambridge, New Haven, et al. in future springs. (Famous last words, I know...)
The Ivies compete in two hockey conferences. The Ivy League Conference doesn’t qualify teams for the NCAA hockey tournament. It’s the ECAC tournament that qualifies them for the tournament. The Ivy league isn’t guaranteed anything. Penn and Columbia don’t have hockey programs.
@anotherparent posted:Of course, the real answer is that the Ivy League should be D3.
100%
@JCG posted:Smoke, we know the kids will be okay. The question is: will the parents be?
That's THE issue in our house. Both boys seem to have made their peace with it. The younger one has had an easier time of it because he knew spring was dead back in October.
In other news Georgetown has yet to approve its baseball team's schedule even though The Big East is a go. And of course the basketball team is competing indoors.
Unreal. I bet the new coach is ready to explode.
@anotherparent posted:......................................................
Of course, the real answer is that the Ivy League should be D3.
In my opinion, there are a couple different ways to look at this. The Ivys are clearly a niche, but there are other niches in the current NCAA universe. In football, you have the FCS and FBS. The Power 5 schools have essentially created their own sub-D1 division, leaving many D1 mid-majors to fend for themselves. Conference realignment and college athletic stipends were a hot topic just a few years ago. Possibly Covid-19 hit the pause button on conference realignment and things are going to heat up again....i'd put money on it! If the NCAA is going to remain relevant, they need to make some changes to the various Divisions. But systemic change takes time, and these conferences aren't going to always embrace change...there has to be something in it for them.
I've always referred to the Ivy and Patriot League as "hybrid-D1s" . Their competitive level is D1 but their reduced game schedule , reduced travel and reduced practice time are very D3-like. All of this is a major reason my son pursued this direction. As an engineering major it was not going to be in the cards (for him) at any other D1 than an Ivy or Patriot school. If there was a D3 engineering school that he had ranked higher and offered, there is no doubt he would have gone there.
As always, JMO.
I know a kid who is currently at Lehigh, he had planned to be an EE major...coach suggested business LOL. That is true story.
@fenwaysouth posted:I've always referred to the Ivy and Patriot League as "hybrid-D1s" . Their competitive level is D1 but their reduced game schedule , reduced travel and reduced practice time are very D3-like. All of this is a major reason my son pursued this direction. As an engineering major it was not going to be in the cards (for him) at any other D1 than an Ivy or Patriot school. If there was a D3 engineering school that he had ranked higher and offered, there is no doubt he would have gone there.
As always, JMO.
I agree with your point, but to clarify most or all Patriot League teams play a full D1 game and practice schedule. And like Ivy's, they have a 4-year-and-done policy (i.e., no redshirting).
I predict at some point there will be four sixteen team major conferences. Each conference will have two eight teams divisions. The concept will be geared towards football first and basketball second. Everything else will be inconsequential.
It will allow the conference championship game to be promoted as the first round of the football playoffs. Then, the four conference champions will continue in the current four team football playoff.
The Ivy League doesn’t have to be moved to D3. It’s no more important or less important in college sports than all the other non FBS schools. Other schools have decided they don’t need FBS football. They get their recognition from basketball.
From Fenway:
In the eyes of the President, his campus is made up of one big student body. There is no right or wrong here. It is important to know ahead of time what that student-athlete experience is going to look like at these schools.
Bingo.
@smokeminside posted:From Fenway:
In the eyes of the President, his campus is made up of one big student body. There is no right or wrong here. It is important to know ahead of time what that student-athlete experience is going to look like at these schools.
Bingo.
While I agree you are correct, I think you can expand it to the whole population. These kids should be going there to learn, compete and lead...but yet the schools have done none of that. They are leading the parade to sit on yours hands and come back outside after the rest of the world has said it is safe.
Sitting at Cressey right now while my son hits. Bunch of Ivy kids here. 1. It’s awesome to here them talk to my son about their recruiting stories 2. Really hits you when you hear first hand about the season being cancelled