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John Smoltz's HOF speech on specialization

RG real green5,000+ posts
Originally Posted by jp24:
Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:
Can you give examples of what their overuse was?  Obviously pitching 150+ pitches every Saturday for 10 months would be overuse, but can you be specific on what theirs was?

Pitcher 1: From 12 or 13 years old on, he was CONSTANTLY working on pitching. Lots of long-toss (don't know details), and played in Texas for select teams that were in a LOT of tournaments starting in February -- often VERY cold weather -- all the way through August at least. It wasn't consecutive-days pitching, or throwing 150 in a game (although I did see him at 14 throw 125) -- it was just obvious that this young man was over-pitching. He was out for brief spells with arm issues almost every year from 12-15. And he'd come back, healed and HURLING. I'm talking mid-80's at a very young age -- 90+ in HS. It all ended with the SNAP! His elite D1 offer included. 

 

Pitcher 2 is from the northeast. He worked his tail off. Long toss all the time. But guarded fiercely by his select coach. Unfortunately, as a senior this year, his HS team was heading to State -- and his HS coach pitched him with one or two days' rest (can't remember), and when the MLB teams that were looking at him as a 95+ very high draft pick had him take a physical, they diagnosed the tear.

 

Both are sickening.  

Why is it any more sickening than any other player that can no longer play?  Do you think player 1 would have had the same opportunity without all the work?  Do you really think player 2 had a partial tear because of one short rest?  If so the tear was going to happen at some point.       

RG real green5,000+ posts
Originally Posted by infielddad:

"Have you actually looked at Andrews findings?"

Many of them actually. I read everything referenced to him even though our son won't play another inning.

It is information. It is highly reliable information from the orthopedic surgeon who is with the very, very best in terms of seeing the damage sports like baseball can produce and correcting them like not many do with surgery. I would think the study showing a "properly" thrown curve ball (interesting how things get remembered) does not cause more issues for the elbow and shoulder than a properly thrown fastball lends credence and objectivity to what Dr. Andrews and his peer group are providing as guidance.  I believe you will also find the article strongly supports the view that most curve balls are not properly thrown by youth pitchers.

But what do I know?  Just seems to me that one might think too many of  those on the way up dismiss the message and messenger.

 

Is there a new report.  The last one reported was based off of self reporting.  Again has anyone defined what a "properly thrown" curve means? 

jp24jp245,000+ posts
Originally Posted by real green:
Originally Posted by jp24:
Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:
Can you give examples of what their overuse was?  Obviously pitching 150+ pitches every Saturday for 10 months would be overuse, but can you be specific on what theirs was?

Pitcher 1: From 12 or 13 years old on, he was CONSTANTLY working on pitching. Lots of long-toss (don't know details), and played in Texas for select teams that were in a LOT of tournaments starting in February -- often VERY cold weather -- all the way through August at least. It wasn't consecutive-days pitching, or throwing 150 in a game (although I did see him at 14 throw 125) -- it was just obvious that this young man was over-pitching. He was out for brief spells with arm issues almost every year from 12-15. And he'd come back, healed and HURLING. I'm talking mid-80's at a very young age -- 90+ in HS. It all ended with the SNAP! His elite D1 offer included. 

 

Pitcher 2 is from the northeast. He worked his tail off. Long toss all the time. But guarded fiercely by his select coach. Unfortunately, as a senior this year, his HS team was heading to State -- and his HS coach pitched him with one or two days' rest (can't remember), and when the MLB teams that were looking at him as a 95+ very high draft pick had him take a physical, they diagnosed the tear.

 

Both are sickening.  

Why is it any more sickening than any other player that can no longer play?  Do you think player 1 would have had the same opportunity without all the work?  Do you really think player 2 had a partial tear because of one short rest?  If so the tear was going to happen at some point.       

It's not more sickening, Real Green. Sorry it sounded that way. 

 

We all do the best we can. I'm not judging anyone -- parents or players. 

 

I'm just saying to the parents of high-velo youngsters: Learn as much as you can, because he is at higher risk than most -- based on one dad's observations.

 

 

 

 

TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Originally Posted by real green:
Originally Posted by jp24:
Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:
Can you give examples of what their overuse was?  Obviously pitching 150+ pitches every Saturday for 10 months would be overuse, but can you be specific on what theirs was?

Pitcher 1: From 12 or 13 years old on, he was CONSTANTLY working on pitching. Lots of long-toss (don't know details), and played in Texas for select teams that were in a LOT of tournaments starting in February -- often VERY cold weather -- all the way through August at least. It wasn't consecutive-days pitching, or throwing 150 in a game (although I did see him at 14 throw 125) -- it was just obvious that this young man was over-pitching. He was out for brief spells with arm issues almost every year from 12-15. And he'd come back, healed and HURLING. I'm talking mid-80's at a very young age -- 90+ in HS. It all ended with the SNAP! His elite D1 offer included. 

 

Pitcher 2 is from the northeast. He worked his tail off. Long toss all the time. But guarded fiercely by his select coach. Unfortunately, as a senior this year, his HS team was heading to State -- and his HS coach pitched him with one or two days' rest (can't remember), and when the MLB teams that were looking at him as a 95+ very high draft pick had him take a physical, they diagnosed the tear.

 

Both are sickening.  

Why is it any more sickening than any other player that can no longer play?  Do you think player 1 would have had the same opportunity without all the work?  Do you really think player 2 had a partial tear because of one short rest?  If so the tear was going to happen at some point.       

You are right, partial tears don't happen on short rest. And why is it sickening? Injuries happen.

CaCO3,

Here is what I consider a problem. I have a friend who has a 10 year old who has played more LL travel games this summer than sons 15/16u team.  Its August,  almost time for school to start here and they are off to CA for more baseball. They play fall ball as well.

My friend says he wants to play ball in college someday.  

Do you think he will? 

Did I mention he is a pitcher?

 

Last edited by TPM
CaCO3GirlCaCO3Girl10,000+ posts
Originally Posted by TPM:

       
Originally Posted by real green:
Originally Posted by jp24:
Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:
Can you give examples of what their overuse was?  Obviously pitching 150+ pitches every Saturday for 10 months would be overuse, but can you be specific on what theirs was?
Pitcher 1: From 12 or 13 years old on, he was CONSTANTLY working on pitching. Lots of long-toss (don't know details), and played in Texas for select teams that were in a LOT of tournaments starting in February -- often VERY cold weather -- all the way through August at least. It wasn't consecutive-days pitching, or throwing 150 in a game (although I did see him at 14 throw 125) -- it was just obvious that this young man was over-pitching. He was out for brief spells with arm issues almost every year from 12-15. And he'd come back, healed and HURLING. I'm talking mid-80's at a very young age -- 90+ in HS. It all ended with the SNAP! His elite D1 offer included.

Pitcher 2 is from the northeast. He worked his tail off. Long toss all the time. But guarded fiercely by his select coach. Unfortunately, as a senior this year, his HS team was heading to State -- and his HS coach pitched him with one or two days' rest (can't remember), and when the MLB teams that were looking at him as a 95+ very high draft pick had him take a physical, they diagnosed the tear.

Both are sickening. 
Why is it any more sickening than any other player that can no longer play?  Do you think player 1 would have had the same opportunity without all the work?  Do you really think player 2 had a partial tear because of one short rest?  If so the tear was going to happen at some point.      
You are right, partial tears don't happen on short rest. And why is it sickening? Injuries happen.
CaCO3,
Here is what I consider a problem. I have a friend who has a 10 year old who has played more LL travel games this summer than sons 15/16u team.  Its August,  almost time for school to start here and they are off to CA for more baseball. They play fall ball as well.
My friend says he wants to play ball in college someday. 
Do you think he will?
Did I mention he is a pitcher?


       






I said awhile back on this thread that the only thing we can all agree on is genetics plays a role.  Some guys seem to have untearable UCL's, while others are failing while following the pitch smart rules.  I am a scientist, I need actual data to crunch.  Until the technology is widely available to measure the strain on each persons arm I don't think any of us know anything for sure....we have educated guesses, but much like the people in the 17th century thought that old meat just spontaneously produced the maggots...not ever understanding small fly eggs that they couldn't see we're the cause....we don't know what causes a pitchers arm to fail.  We are waving our hands and pointing at data going see, see.....but as several people have pointed out there is no actual data, only guesses.  Will I be monitoring my kid to make sure he follows the pitch smart rules, yes.  Am I sure that if he follows them to the letter he won't have to have TJ surgery at 16, NO!
Last edited by CaCO3Girl
J joes8710,000+ posts
Originally Posted by TPM:
Originally Posted by real green:
Originally Posted by jp24:
Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:
Can you give examples of what their overuse was?  Obviously pitching 150+ pitches every Saturday for 10 months would be overuse, but can you be specific on what theirs was?

Pitcher 1: From 12 or 13 years old on, he was CONSTANTLY working on pitching. Lots of long-toss (don't know details), and played in Texas for select teams that were in a LOT of tournaments starting in February -- often VERY cold weather -- all the way through August at least. It wasn't consecutive-days pitching, or throwing 150 in a game (although I did see him at 14 throw 125) -- it was just obvious that this young man was over-pitching. He was out for brief spells with arm issues almost every year from 12-15. And he'd come back, healed and HURLING. I'm talking mid-80's at a very young age -- 90+ in HS. It all ended with the SNAP! His elite D1 offer included. 

 

Pitcher 2 is from the northeast. He worked his tail off. Long toss all the time. But guarded fiercely by his select coach. Unfortunately, as a senior this year, his HS team was heading to State -- and his HS coach pitched him with one or two days' rest (can't remember), and when the MLB teams that were looking at him as a 95+ very high draft pick had him take a physical, they diagnosed the tear.

 

Both are sickening.  

Why is it any more sickening than any other player that can no longer play?  Do you think player 1 would have had the same opportunity without all the work?  Do you really think player 2 had a partial tear because of one short rest?  If so the tear was going to happen at some point.       

You are right, partial tears don't happen on short rest. And why is it sickening? Injuries happen.

CaCO3,

Here is what I consider a problem. I have a friend who has a 10 year old who has played more LL travel games this summer than sons 15/16u team.  Its August,  almost time for school to start here and they are off to CA for more baseball. They play fall ball as well.

My friend says he wants to play ball in college someday.  

Do you think he will? 

Did I mention he is a pitcher?

 

Funny. Right before I saw this I saw a facebook post from a friend about their kid still playing baseball. They started two weeks before ours started playing and still have at least one more to play in before the summers over. They are then going to roll into fall ball. By the time the seasons over they will probably have played more games then most MLB players. I made the comment to my wife about overuse issues and how this kid always seems to have a strained this or that. Not sure how the family has not yet made the connection. 

TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003

I think that was his point as well. My thought is anything in excess may not always be good. Do 10 year olds really have to play so many games?  Especially coming from a warm weather state. Save it for when it really counts, in HS when you have to go out on the recruiting circuit.

Having any injury at anytime in a players career puts him behind the 8 ball.  We played it careful because we wanted him to get through HS ball, college ball and get drafted. All players get hurt at some point, its where and when that could determine your next level.  

Smoltz already had a successful career before he had TJS. So did many other pitchers. Did they play ball in HS, other sports as well. Doesn't matter, he had already arrived.  

There are a lot of players having TJS these days you will never know about because they just never recovered.  

Do you want your son to be included in that statistic? Or would you like him to get to play college or higher, or even HS?

Not sure why this is even debatable.

Last edited by TPM
CaCO3GirlCaCO3Girl10,000+ posts
The debate isn't do you want your son to be hurt or not, the debate is how much is too much?

There is some logic in attending batting practice 52 weeks a year, I find zero logic in working on pitching 52 weeks a year.  While my son may be on a year round team there were about 20 games from August to mid October and 60 games from February to June.  July is a tryout period for new teams and pick up games and Mid October to mid January is shut down period for ALL players to focus on speed, agility, and strengthening. They don't have a single pitcher training during that time.

Some people who drink the Kool-aid spend the shut down time on weekly or twice a week pitching lessons.  Those are the kids I worry about.  The term "year round team" to our neck of the woods simply boils down to don't join another team during that time, not that they play games year round.
P PGStaff10,000+ posts

It would be interesting to know if there are many, or even any, kids that play competitive baseball for 12 months a year.  Doesn't almost everyone take a couple months off from competitive baseball at some point during the year?

 

Risk and Reward...

 

No risk, play it 100% safe = No Reward

Too much risk, over do it = Jeopardize the Reward

 

All we can do is be as smart as possible.  There is a risk every time a player takes the field or a pitcher takes the mound. You cannot reach your potential without some risk being involved.  Will your priority be 100% health or give it 100%, all you have?  Obviously it needs to be somewhere in between.

 

My biggest problem is (that in between area) is different from one pitcher to the next.  I don't mean the obvious over use or lack of recovery time.  Everyone seems to agree on one thing for sure... Fatigue being the biggest culprit!  But what if one pitcher is capable of reaching 100 pitches before fatigue sets in, yet another pitcher reaches that point in 50 pitches?  We all know this happens, we are talking about pitchers being different in every way.

 

My personal opinion is, it is vitally important that someone, coach or family member, knows what their pitchers limitations are, especially when it involves fatigue.  Then the 50 pitch limit guy can possibly gain on that limit in a somewhat safe manner over time. But throwing him 100 pitches now is likely to create serious injury at some point. But no matter what, there is no way to completely eliminate risk and still reach your potential.  It is possible to be aware of the most dangerous risks. If safety is the only thing that is important to you and your son being a successful pitcher is not important, then... "Don't let your babies grow up to be pitchers"

Bulldog 19Bulldog 195,000+ posts
Originally Posted by PGStaff:

It would be interesting to know if there are many, or even any, kids that play competitive baseball for 12 months a year.  Doesn't almost everyone take a couple months off from competitive baseball at some point during the year?

 

Guess that would depend on your definition of "competitive." Since there are tournaments in all 12 months out of the year and showcases, I'd say there probably are some who are playing every month of the year. 

jp24jp245,000+ posts
Originally Posted by joes87:
Originally Posted by TPM:
Originally Posted by real green:
Originally Posted by jp24:
Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:
Can you give examples of what their overuse was?  Obviously pitching 150+ pitches every Saturday for 10 months would be overuse, but can you be specific on what theirs was?

Pitcher 1: From 12 or 13 years old on, he was CONSTANTLY working on pitching. Lots of long-toss (don't know details), and played in Texas for select teams that were in a LOT of tournaments starting in February -- often VERY cold weather -- all the way through August at least. It wasn't consecutive-days pitching, or throwing 150 in a game (although I did see him at 14 throw 125) -- it was just obvious that this young man was over-pitching. He was out for brief spells with arm issues almost every year from 12-15. And he'd come back, healed and HURLING. I'm talking mid-80's at a very young age -- 90+ in HS. It all ended with the SNAP! His elite D1 offer included. 

 

Pitcher 2 is from the northeast. He worked his tail off. Long toss all the time. But guarded fiercely by his select coach. Unfortunately, as a senior this year, his HS team was heading to State -- and his HS coach pitched him with one or two days' rest (can't remember), and when the MLB teams that were looking at him as a 95+ very high draft pick had him take a physical, they diagnosed the tear.

 

Both are sickening.  

Why is it any more sickening than any other player that can no longer play?  Do you think player 1 would have had the same opportunity without all the work?  Do you really think player 2 had a partial tear because of one short rest?  If so the tear was going to happen at some point.       

You are right, partial tears don't happen on short rest. And why is it sickening? Injuries happen.

CaCO3,

Here is what I consider a problem. I have a friend who has a 10 year old who has played more LL travel games this summer than sons 15/16u team.  Its August,  almost time for school to start here and they are off to CA for more baseball. They play fall ball as well.

My friend says he wants to play ball in college someday.  

Do you think he will? 

Did I mention he is a pitcher?

 

Funny. Right before I saw this I saw a facebook post from a friend about their kid still playing baseball. They started two weeks before ours started playing and still have at least one more to play in before the summers over. They are then going to roll into fall ball. By the time the seasons over they will probably have played more games then most MLB players. I made the comment to my wife about overuse issues and how this kid always seems to have a strained this or that. Not sure how the family has not yet made the connection. 

At 9U, my son's team played in something like 70-80 games. 

 

He loved it, but he wasn't a pitcher. 

 

If I had it do do over, I don't know.

 

Yes -- this is my point. Thank you.

S SluggerDad10,000+ posts

You can't forget about the money aspect of this -- especially for the tournament organizers and the travel organizations,  In these parts there is a certain facility and a certain organization that runs baseball tournaments practically every week of the year.  They hardly ever go looking for teams to play in those tournaments.   

 

On the other hand, practice space and indoor facilities are quite limited.  There are a few organizations that can survive while not playing in the fall and winter because they have indoor facilities,  So they can keep their teams together and have them work indoors in the fall and early winter without having to play that much.   But a number of these "local" travel teams basically play all year round -- especially the below HS age teams.  Why?  Cause they canCause they make more money by doing so.  Because parents are a bit gullible perhaps.   Because they think by playing all year round their kid is going to have a big competitive edge.  And on and on. It's a bit insane.  I remember being out at a certain facility in the neighborhood for an early January game at 8am when my son played 13U I think it was.   It was COLD.  But we all had the illusion that playing baseball on a cold January morning was somehow good for our kids. 

Last edited by SluggerDad
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003

60 games from February to June for that age group is more than many college programs play.

But you live in an area that is so competitive people think their kids will miss out on something if they don't play a lot of baseball. I get it, its that way here too.

So who is really drinking the KA?

Someone should do a study on how many pitchers from the Atlanta area breakdown before or after college. 

JMO

 

JMO

CaCO3GirlCaCO3Girl10,000+ posts
That was 14 tourneys, over 4.5 months.  Playing about 3 weekends a month.  Each tourney had a 3 game guarantee, so it could have been only 42 games if the kids had always lost their first pool play games, which  they didn't, and they had 10 games their week in Cooperstown.

  So no, I don't think that's too much, nor do I think we are drinking the koolaid.  Please keep in mind, 12u is 6 innings per game....if the mercy rule doesn't come into affect, or the 1:40 minute time constraint.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Originally Posted by CaCO3Girl:
That was 14 tourneys, over 4.5 months.  Playing about 3 weekends a month.  Each tourney had a 3 game guarantee, so it could have been only 42 games if the kids had always lost their first pool play games, which  they didn't, and they had 10 games their week in Cooperstown.

  So no, I don't think that's too much, nor do I think we are drinking the koolaid.  Please keep in mind, 12u is 6 innings per game....if the mercy rule doesn't come into affect, or the 1:40 minute time constraint.

Its your perogative to justify whatever you want.

D 2020dad
Its hard to say sometimes what makes our kids improve - or what makes them fade.  I do know this my son has played an average of more than 60 games a year since age 9.  Every year he has improved more than most kids his age.  Hopefully next year will see more drastic improvement.  I have always been careful About how much he pitches but I definitely feel playing a lot of games has helped.  I have no way of proving that just like no one has any proof of why some kids get hurt and others don't.   So I respect all opinions and just try to do the best I can to keep my son safe.  But I don't think 60 game a is overkill.  JMO.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Originally Posted by 2020dad:
Its hard to say sometimes what makes our kids improve - or what makes them fade.  I do know this my son has played an average of more than 60 games a year since age 9.  Every year he has improved more than most kids his age.  Hopefully next year will see more drastic improvement.  I have always been careful About how much he pitches but I definitely feel playing a lot of games has helped.  I have no way of proving that just like no one has any proof of why some kids get hurt and others don't.   So I respect all opinions and just try to do the best I can to keep my son safe.  But I don't think 60 game a is overkill.  JMO.

Curious. What do you allow your son to pitch per game, how many times a week, what other positions and what pitches does he throw? 60 in what amount of time.

D 2020dad
Originally Posted by TPM:

       
Originally Posted by 2020dad:
Its hard to say sometimes what makes our kids improve - or what makes them fade.  I do know this my son has played an average of more than 60 games a year since age 9.  Every year he has improved more than most kids his age.  Hopefully next year will see more drastic improvement.  I have always been careful About how much he pitches but I definitely feel playing a lot of games has helped.  I have no way of proving that just like no one has any proof of why some kids get hurt and others don't.   So I respect all opinions and just try to do the best I can to keep my son safe.  But I don't think 60 game a is overkill.  JMO.

Curious. What do you allow your son to pitch per game, how many times a week, what other positions and what pitches does he throw? 60 in what amount of time.


       
60 games from late april to mid July.   Now fall ball.  Don't like more than 7 innings a week pitching.  Some weekends of course we are off and he does no pitching.  In fall ball there will be minimal pitching as at least around here they usually pitch about everyone one or two innings each.  When all is said and done he will play about 90 games between late april and early October.   He also plays 1B.  In fall ball he may play some 3B and C as they move kids around a lot in fall.  October, november and December we will do little throwing of any kind.  Certainly no pitching.  In January he will throw a little at a.pitching camp.  Then take the rest if january off.  Start throwing in February and march.  Then another couple week break in early april before going full bore.
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