John Smoltz's HOF speech on specialization

I thought it was a good speech and glad he made the point about overuse.

 

You can specialize and not overuse.

 

My son played baseball only since the 8th grade. He hated s*ccer at a early age. Didn't care much for basketball even though he was tall. Football wasn't his thing either.

He did waterski, wakeboard, knee board, skeet shoot, bow shoot, long distance rifle shoot, hunt, fish, trap and various other things that may not be considered a sport. He also played very little Fall Ball after he was 12 or 13 and when he did, he didn't pitch past September or so (it interfered with his hunting). He did play catch periodically October thru January.

 

Moderation is the key, IMO!

joemktgson was baseball-only after 6th grade. He enjoyed basketball, but the constant screaming/yelling from coaches turned him off. Dabbled in other things, but was focused on baseball. That's all he ever wanted to play.

 

The issue we have is to make sure he doesn't over do it. It's especially hard to have him rest the arm in the down months of November/December.

 

Between baseball, girlfriend, school: not much left to do anything else.

Very unpopular speech, because it's all too true. But very few will listen..

What I took from his speech was not to play baseball year round but use the off season for other sports. And not to let the college coaches make you feel that you have to play year round to get a scholarship.

 

Good stuff, something we have advocated here for many many years.

 

Diamond Dogs,

To answer your question, pitchers are going to get hurt, its almost inevitable they will always remain healthy.

Our son didnt play year round baseball (even living in the sunshine state) until his junior HS season began, we always limited what he did and one reason was that he threw very hard. Even with being careful he suffered injuries (not serious but chronic in nature), which prevented  him from reaching the highest level.  

I have to admit, these days, I sometimes cringe when I hear about how much young players are playing baseball on a year round basis, HS ball, summer ball, fall ball, in between showcases, tourneys for weeks at a time, etc. etc. Some of these kids throw more innings than son did in college.

JMO

Let the kids do what the kids want to do.  Last time I checked you only get one shot at going through life (unless you believe in reincarnation and even then you won't remember it so it's like going through it for the first time anyway) so let people enjoy what they want to do.  I believe in overuse injuries in that they do happen but I also realize not to everyone.  When it comes to injuries I agree with TPM - they are going to happen and sometimes it's because play too much and sometimes it's because you specialize too much.  It is what it is - go have fun.  If someone is trying to make you specialize they are not the right fit for you.  Go have fun.

 

Now if a kid wants to specialize because that's what's fun to them then let them specialize.

Here are Smoltz's remarks on the subject Sunday at Cooperstown in their entirety:

Before I hand it over to the next inductee, I'd be remiss if I did not talk about Tommy John. I've been given an opportunity as one of the only players, the only one right now, to be inducted into the Hall of Fame with Tommy John surgery. It's an epidemic. It's something that is affecting our game. It's something that I thought would cost me my career, but thanks to Dr. James Andrews and all those before him, performing the surgery with such precision has caused it to be almost a false read, like a Band‑Aid you put on your arm.

I want to encourage the families and parents that are out there to understand that this is not normal to have a surgery at 14 and 15 years old, that you have time, that baseball's not a year‑round sport, that you have an opportunity to be athletic and play other sports.

Don't let the institutions that are out there running before you guaranteeing scholarship dollars and signing bonuses (tell you) that this is the way. We have such great, dynamic arms in our game that it's a shame that we're having one and two and three Tommy John recipients. So I want to encourage you if nothing else, know that your children's passion and desire to play baseball is something that they can do without a competitive pitch. Every throw a kid makes today is a competitive pitch. They don't go outside; they don't have fun; they don't throw enough. But they're competing and maxing out too hard, too early, and that's why we're having these problems. So please, take care of those great future arms.

Do you mean the part where he said kids nowadays "don’t throw enough"?  Which I happen to agree with . . .

 

Seriously, to answer the OP, 2019Son will begin to focus on baseball this year (9th grade). Up until now, he has played lots of sports other than baseball -- though on school teams, not travel teams.

Specialization...   again...  oh well my viewpoint hasn't changed.  Play what you want.  If its three sports so be it.  If its one that's fine too.  As for 2020 he plays basketball and baseball.  But by far more time spent on baseball.  His choice.  He will probably stick with basketball through high school but again that will be his choice.  But baseball for him is 12 months a year.  Part of that is baseball specific strength and fitness part is winter practice and part fall ball and of course the regular season.  No apologies.  And no burn out.  He would play 365 days a year if he could.

Welcome to the site, Diamond Dogs.  You will find countless threads on this topic.  I'll give you some of my perspective...

 

I have three kids, my youngest is still playing as a rising college junior.  I have coached HS ball for several years and have coached travel ball across ages from 12 - 18.  I have also coached summer college ball and am asked on occasion to guest coach showcase teams.  I do occasional contract work as site director for one of the big youth tournament organizations and have done so for about ten years.  I just worked one this past weekend.  I had ages 9-13 at my facilities so this should resonate with you and your kids.  I really enjoy being around the kids and trying to provide a great playing environment for them.  But FAR too many of the parents and coaches have gone so far overboard it is unbelievable.  I could tell you crazy stories for days from these events.  They are clearly pushing their kids to be all about baseball and putting way too much pressure on the kids to perform at a high level right now - yes, even at 8 and 9 years old.  I have seen it only get worse over the years and the younger the players, the worse the coaches and parents' behavior is.  Of course this is a generalization.  But it used to be I would enjoy the many great parents and coaches and tolerate the difficult ones.  This has shifted to the point where I have to seek out those parents and coaches who have a reasonable sense of balance in mind for their kids.  I left this weekend wishing I had a clear path to trying to influence this trend.  At least I can talk to you here.

 

Always remember that, as much as your kids may love baseball, in the end, it will not define them.  Focus on what kind of person each is off the field.  What other interests do they have or can you introduce them to?  They will grow and change.  They may continue playing baseball or they may take up different interests.  They may get hurt, get a girlfriend or get beat out at some level, no matter how hard they work at the game.  Be prepared to support their interests, whatever they may be.  In some cases, I think balance is something that even may need to be forced to an extent.  We told our kids they had to be involved in one or two outside activities, no more and no less, at a time, their choice.  Told them to pick a sport or music or community participation or some other hobby.  Help them be well-rounded.  Help them see how much the world has to offer.  Make sure part of the balance is to fulfill their share of responsibilities around the house as a member of the family.  And sports is no excuse not to do so.  If they are gifted enough and have the desire to excel at one in particular, gradually increase time toward that activity as part of the big picture but continue to insist on balance and new experiences. 

 

Yes, at some point, a young player may need to spend more time outside of the regular season (whatever that is anymore) in order to continue to compete.  The equation is different for everyone.  What is the individual's talent level?  What is the competitive environment - how good is the HS program, etc.?  But it sure as heck doesn't have to happen before they are twelve or thirteen.  And, even then, there still should be balance.  If the kids are in a school environment that allows them to participate in multiple sports and they want to do so, let them.  If they are talented enough to continue playing their favorite sport, there will still be enough time to hone their skills in that particular sport.  Meanwhile, there is usually plenty of benefit from playing the second or third sport or from taking a break from team sports and doing something else.

 

I've had dozens of kids tell me they love baseball and want to play it all the time.  I've become pretty good at reading a kid's voice and asking a few exploratory questions to determine sincerity vs. influence.  There are instances where it is 100% sincere.  There are far more instances where there is a significant amount of influence by parents and coaches who have the kids thinking they have to play all the time to "make it".  And in many of those instances, the parents have brainwashed themselves to believe it all comes from the kid.  Thus the need for appeals from folks such as Smoltz.

 

 

 

 

Smoltz' argument makes no sense. He was a multi-sport star and he had TJ surgery.

Smoltz had already reached the majors when he had TJ.  His reference is that now it is becoming common for 14, 15 year olds to need the procedure.

       
       


My understanding is Smoltz is against year round competitive Baseball. I also believe he is encouraging kids to play other sports and spend more time throwing. Makes sense to me; getting out in the yard & throwing is different than playing competitive Baseball. And yes; he'd played a number of years professional ball before TJ. He does not come across as a know it all & I respect his opinion.

Smoltz had TJ surgery while a professional athlete. Not at 14-15 years old.

The quote that interests me, especially coming from a Hall of Fame pitcher is: "that baseball's not a year‑round sport, that you have an opportunity to be athletic and play other sports." Is this true?  Do you really have that opportunity? How many coaches today would agree that baseball should not be a year-round sport,in practice not theory, or do most travel coaches and then HS coaches demand full participation (spring season, summer ball, camps, showcases, fall team, winter workouts, pitching coaches, hitting coaches, etc)? Does anyone here actually have a kid who was a multi-sport athlete in HS, or is that a thing of the past?

I played baseball through college. I played three sports in high school. I never tried to influence my kids towards baseball/softball. But it's what they play(ed) in college. They also played four sports into middle school and three in high school. My son was cut from basketball soph year for missing all the off season workouts and summer basketball. He played rec basketball the rest of high school.

 

My my kids never played baseball/softball out of season until high school. After 8th grade each played fall ball in addition to their fall sport. Winters were for physical training ing in addition to their wimter sport. In high school baseball/softball became year round.

 

Senior year my son fell and separated his shoulder doing an agility drill. It required surgery. The ortho (also has pro clients) said my son's shoulder had a lot of wear and tear. It wasn't from pitching. It was from all the contact playing sports. He's a very physical athlete. He's a very athletic kid who plays like a grinder. Putting his shoulder back together had him throwing harder.

 

So it's not necessarily pitching too much, too little, playing one sport or playing multiple sports. All an athlete can do is take care of his body the best he can and hope for the best. As far as throwing and pitching I do believe kids pitch too much and throw too little. My son threw almost every day during the season starting with LL.

 

i also believe just because a person is/was a pro athlete doesn't mean he knows anything about youth sports and youth's bodies.

All three of my kids were multi-sport thru HS.  The majority of the student/athletes at our medium size HS are multi-sport thru all or most of their HS years.  Granted, a fair amount of those are football players who run track. 

My kids attended a large classification high school. My daughter played volleyball, basketball and softball. Since there are less athletic girls they are encouraged to play two or three sports. 

 

My son's soccer coach went nuts every year my son told him he would be playing baseball all summer. He did attend two weeks of goalie camp each summer. After being the starting point guard on the freshman team he was cut soph year for missing all the off season workouts and not playing in a summer league. The only two sport basketball player was 6'7", 220. The basketball coach told me since my son was already a varsity soccer player and expected to start varsity baseball as a soph he obviously didn't have time for basketball. A former UNC captain thought the coach was nuts for cutting my son. Having the winter to workout helped him put on bulk and muscle instead of running off weight playing basketball every day.

In a conversation this past winter with an AD of a nearby private school known for its athletics, he told me that they have a specific award for three-sport athletes, and that they haven't given the award in a number of years because they don't have any three-sport athletes. He said that they still see a lot of fall-spring two-sport athletes (e.g., football-baseball, or football-track), but it's difficult to do back-to-back seasons (e.g., fall-winter, or winter-spring) because the seasons overlap so much.

 

To be clear, I'm talking about the big-school level (Division 1 in California; there are seven divisions). I know that it's different at smaller schools -- e.g., lots and lots of kids in Division 5 schools play multiple sports.

There was the focus on arm issues.

 

But anybody catch this quote?  "Don't let the institutions that are out there running before you guaranteeing scholarship dollars and signing bonuses (tell you) that this is the way. " in regards to year round competitive baseball.

 

And what includes "Institutions"?  Academies? Promoters? Showcase? Agents?

 

So did he really mean guaranteeing? Or was that an easy word to encompass: Dangling hopes and dreams of

If they don't want to play football are you gonna make them? Are you gonna drive them all over the state and force them to wrestle just because someone gave their opinion? Different strokes for different folks, athletes are not all built the same, it's not a Toyota assembly line.

Long toss or no long toss?

Throw in between starts or don't throw?

Bands are good or bad?

Weighted balls or not?

No curve balls until your 15,16, or 17?

Completely shut the arm down in July?

Do a fall throwing program with weights?

Don't play another sport with a throwing motion.

Play every sport you can find including Ice Curling!

Bowling will tighten up your shoulder.

Run after each outing.

Unusual mechanics.

Make sure you ice.

Never mind ice is what the old timer's would do.

Kids just don't throw enough these day's!

How about a 15 year old throwing 162 pitches in a JV game on a cold March night with a inch of snow on the ground.

 

My point is, there are many thing's to blame for injuries and for careers that have been shortened. But there are also just as many to give credit to when everything works out. Every kid and family is different and should figure out whats best for them, Nolan Ryan   lifted weights when his coaches told him not too, He felt like he was a better pitcher because of it.

I've posted this before, but I think I will repeat it again.  I had the opportunity to have a semi-private discussion with Buddy Bell.  Buddy is now in charge of scouting for the White Sox.  One of the topics he talked about was specialization in sports.  He was very much against is and said that he preferred athletes who played multiple sports.  Main reasons were, they have seen way too many overuse injuries, burnout, kids were coached up way too much leaving little potential upside, and he felt multi-sport athletes were more competitive then a single sport athlete.  In the end he said when they are making draft decisions it comes down to can the kid play and whats his upside.  If they are looking at two equal athletes and one is multi-sport and the other is baseball only they are going to go with the multi-sport athlete.  That is not to say they are not going to take a baseball only draftee if they feel he can play and has upside.

 

As far as my 2017's journey.  He has been a 3 sport athlete up until this point.  Starter on the football, basketball and baseball teams.  One of about 6 kids (about 950 in his class) who have earned their 3 sport award for the last two school years.  This year he has dropped both football and basketball.  It was a very tough decision for him, but he is starting to see some college action and decided that its time to focus on the one sport for this year.  He is still planning (and encouraged by his HS and travel coaches) to take time off after the fall season.  He is going to use this time to work on his physicality as that is the area folks feel he is most lacking in.  He is 6'4" 180 pounds.  He needs to add some muscle mass and its difficult when you are always in season.

 

 

 

 

Truth is, there are both multi sport and specialization athletes that have made it to the highest level of baseball.  I don't see one way being any better or worse than the other way.

 

i actually like to see kids participate in all the sports, if that is what they enjoy.  However, there are a large number of Latin players in the Big Leagues and nearly all of them specialized in one sport.

 

To me there is nothing wrong with either way.  I do believe that specializing in one sport shouldn't include actual competition year around.  This is especially true for pitchers.  However things like fielding and hitting are something the more you do the better you get at it.  There are a lot of Latin shortstops in the Major Leagues.  Is that because they are better athletes than those here in the states?  I think it is because that 16 year old from the Dominican has simply fielded twice as many ground balls as the 16 year old here in the United States.  

 

It is amazing how many professional baseball pitchers and players were Quarter Backs in high school.

To follow up on PGStaff's comment about Latin American kids, I hear folks like Bell say positive things about multi-sport athletes, but when you look at the draft it sure doesn't seem like MLB is giving much weight to the whole multi-sport angle. For instance, this year the top draft picks out of HS were:

 

3. Brendan Rodgers

5. Kyle Tucker

10. Cornelius Randolph

11. Tyler Stephenson

12. Josh Naylor

13. Garrett Whitley

 

I'm not sure about Naylor since he is Canadian and MaxPreps didn't have him in their database, but the other 5 played only baseball in high school (per MaxPreps). I stopped looking after the first half-dozen, but in the past couple of drafts the first round has been heavily weighted (around 70%) with baseball-only kids, at least with respect to the high school players drafted.

 

At 2019Son's school, by the time they get to junior year there are very, very few multi-sport athletes, in the range of just a couple of kids. And that is across the board, not just with respect to baseball. OTOH, they have a lot of talent (e.g., in baseball over the past two graduating classes, 16 kids went on to D-1 baseball), so part of it may be that the kids feel like they have to specialize in order to compete . . . 

His speech is about NOT playing competitive baseball all year round. You can be involved in other activities as a youth player and in HS. Save the year round bb for when you need it is all he is saying. You do not have to be in a game to throw a baseball.

As far as latins, very few play organized baseball, how many play elite travel ball at 7, 8? And they suffer many injuries, but because they dont want to go home they keep it very much in the inner circle. 

Latin pitchers are having more and more tjs.

Not sure why anyone would question anyone who has walked the walk.  This is about common sense and as pointed out by cabbagedad, many folks these days dont have much of that.

For those that say they would allow their young players to play  baseball. 365 days a year, well go ahead. Dont say no one warned ya.
And this doesnt mean 365 days of baseball and 2 other sports  or teams at the same time!

The sky is falling fear mongering about arm injuries is getting to be pretty stupid at this point.  There is no documented epidemic.  What we are seeing is that unlike the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s where kids would throw out their arm and thus never play again (we saw that all the time as kids); they can actually get surgery to fix the issues. There is no study that shows that arm injuries are worse now than they use to be; they just show having more and more surgeries because guess what; technology now allows it.

Son's RC said the same thing as Bell noted above. 2015 played 4 sports in HS. Played baseball 4 years, soccer 4 years, indoor track 3, and freshman basketball.Knew he would shed basketball first as he is under 6 foot, and would have likely been the 14th player on a 15 player JV team, perhaps getting a minute every so many games. From basketball he developed his upper body, toughness (taking charges from people 50+ lbs bigger), and endurance. Soccer helped speed and lateral movement and he developed big calf muscles during the season. Would throw in ball when out of bounds, especially if it was <25 yards from goal. Indoor track helped with his technique in running; coaches fine-tuned his sprinting. Credits track for helping lower his 60 and HTF times. Developed strong upper leg/thigh muscles in track. Baseball was all about increasing bat speed and arm strength for him, which were different muscles then those he used to throw a soccer ball.

After his last track meet his senior year (around March), son looks at me and says, "Dad,  I am now a 1 sport athlete."

 

The point is 13, 14 year shouldnt have to go through major surgery.

My 2017 catcher has played baseball exclusively, year-round since t-ball when he was 6. However, he is a mountain bike and skateboarding instructor in summer camps and used to be quite the skateboarding enthusiast from late grade school. We also play Frisbee a lot, and he hates it that I still throw much better than he does (but he makes much more athletic catches). Happily, he's doing great.

Originally Posted by 2019Dad:

In a conversation this past winter with an AD of a nearby private school known for its athletics, he told me that they have a specific award for three-sport athletes, and that they haven't given the award in a number of years because they don't have any three-sport athletes. He said that they still see a lot of fall-spring two-sport athletes (e.g., football-baseball, or football-track), but it's difficult to do back-to-back seasons (e.g., fall-winter, or winter-spring) because the seasons overlap so much….

 

That AD must have been talking about some kind of overlap other than the “season” the sport was played in. Looking at football, basketball, and baseball, the only possible overlap of seasons is if the championship is involved. Now if he was referring to practices and conditioning, that’s a different matter.

 

CIF Bylaw 504 Season of sport.

 

E. The basic sports seasons are:

Fall - August through November

Winter - November through February

Spring - February through June

Exact dates may vary from year-to-year and between Sections within the above specified basic seasons.

Championship competition may extend beyond these limits.

 

H. Sections have the responsibility to work toward equity relative to length of season, number of contests, and

number of opportunities for participation by students. The “seasons of sport” for State Championships are:

Fall - Volleyball (girls) Winter - Soccer (boys and girls - SoCal Regionals only)

Fall - Cross Country (boys and girls) Spring – Swimming and Diving (boys and girls)

Fall - Football (boys) Spring – Track and Field (boys and girls)

Fall - Golf (girls) Spring - Golf (boys)

Fall - Tennis (girls - Regionals only) Spring - Tennis (boys - Regionals only)

Winter - Basketball (boys and girls) Spring - Volleyball (boys - Regionals only)

Winter -Wrestling (boys and girls) Spring – Badminton (boys, girls and coed - Regionals only)

 

Part of the problem is in many high schools each sport is its own fiefdom.  Each coach wants "their guys" to do his thing.  If you don't, you look like you are uncommitted to the program.  Workout are not coordinated and become ineffective.  There is an easy fix.  A strong AD who can get everyone on the same page.  Have a high school all sport strength and conditioning coach.  In the summer offseason, all athletes work with him/her in the AM.  The focus is on general athletic conditioning, with some specialization for particular sports.  The PM is open for group sport work -- basketball camp, summer baseball, volleyball, etc.  Get the athletes prepared in the offseason summer to play during the school year.  Multi sport athletes can find time to work on skill specific aspects, ie; shooting, hitting, pitching, while doing the in season sport.  There is a school by me working this way and it seems to be helping. 

Here are my thoughts. My 2015 RHP was just dropped off at his SEC school to play baseball. It has been a long journey filled with ups and downs. As a  parent of a child who only plays baseball and YES it is a sport that requires 12 months of dedication, I feel compelled to tell our recent story. My son threw 90 HS innings his junior year (2014) keep in mind this is up form his all time high of 30 innings in a calendar year. Going into his important summer before his senior year we joined a very high end baseball organization. The upper end of select 17U baseball. All players were D1 and many drafted. My son was expected to be the ace but really struggled with velocity. He was simply tired and needed a break BUT the demands of the summer circuit kept him out there. He only pitched in a few summer events of 2014 because I made the decision to shut him down. Keep in mind no medical issues just his arm felt heavy and he was struggling with velocity. He never said it but I knew it and took action. What hurt us was the select coaches being mad at him and telling scouts he was not good etc. They never asked what might be happening to him or even cared. They wanted that horse on the mound no matter the consequences. The organization's leader went on to tell pro scouts terrible things about him and he only had three opportunities to ever watch him pitch. Long story short I shut my son down, focused on weight training and getting into good shape. His last event was the Area Code games in CA and then he did not pick up a baseball until November. All he did was train daily and got into wonderful shape. He did not pitch in the BIG Fall tourney in Florida that thousands of scouts were attending. This hurt him with pro scouts and I heard it from everybody including his representation that skipping that event was stupid. This is the stuff that is killing kids arms. Event after event is expected for the pros to gain a comfort level with you. These kids are training for velocity and not training to be great pitchers. It is all about who throws the hardest. Fast forward to his senior year of 2015. he had a great year and his last outing he sat 92-95 and was awesome. He could barely break 90 last summer. I believe these kids need period of non throwing and focus on their body and minds. Parents, shut them down and go to the gym. You do not have to play multiple sports BUT stop throwing for an extended period and work your body. This will help.

My thoughts:

 

It was a lot easier to make this decision back in Smoltz's day.  When he came up, there wasn't even an option available. 

 

The question to be asked is, now that we have the option, why do so many choose to play "year round baseball" (which I put in quotes because it's quite the misnomer).

 

The answer is, because we love baseball and want much, much more of it.

 

When I was a kid, the 16 games you got with your Little League team in the spring was all the opportunity we had.  How I wish we could've played and played and played like kids do now.

 

And let's get real.  The fraction of players who can even hope to play MLB is miniscule.  To say that 100% of kids should stop playing because a fraction of a percent of them might increase their injury risk is really tail wagging the dog.

 

If the point is really what Andrews said, then I'm all on board.  Limit pitching, use pitch counts, observe proper rest intervals, etc.  Absolutely yes, no exceptions.

 

And to be clear, kids can and do play other sports.  In high level travel ball, you're talking about March-June on school teams, June-July and Sept-Oct in travel.  That's 7 months out of the year, and many programs allow players to play, e.g., football in the fall.  Many fall programs are decidedly low key.  Let's stop arguing against something that isn't really happening anyway.

Originally Posted by Golfman25:

Part of the problem is in many high schools each sport is its own fiefdom.  Each coach wants "their guys" to do his thing.  If you don't, you look like you are uncommitted to the program.  Workout are not coordinated and become ineffective. 

 

Truer words have never been spoken!

 

There is an easy fix.  A strong AD who can get everyone on the same page.  Have a high school all sport strength and conditioning coach.  In the summer offseason, all athletes work with him/her in the AM.  The focus is on general athletic conditioning, with some specialization for particular sports.  The PM is open for group sport work -- basketball camp, summer baseball, volleyball, etc.  Get the athletes prepared in the offseason summer to play during the school year.  Multi sport athletes can find time to work on skill specific aspects, ie; shooting, hitting, pitching, while doing the in season sport.  There is a school by me working this way and it seems to be helping. 

 

It sounds like a good fix, but I don’t see how all the publics could do it, if for no other reason than the cost. Somebody’s got to pay for that S&C coach, but right now our schools are really strapped for sports funds. Things have gotten so bad in our district, at many schools the summer baseball team has to pay the school for the use of the field!

Well...

• HS off-season practices (organized or not) begin in mid-January in preparation for mid-February tryouts. Can't go into that stone cold, as that is risky for the arm.
• August is a quasi-down month, but practicing is needed to stay sharp for September and October ball.
• November and December? No throwing, but those kids love to hit, so they're always on the prowl for an indoor facility that's available (they play, I pay). Above 40 degrees? They're outside in the cages.
• And the lifting, conditioning, speed work is ongoing using interval training.
• So it nets down to 2.5 months of no throwing.

FWIW...for those kids I know (and know of) who played HS football and/or basketball but whose first love was baseball, in retrospect they probably would've done things differently in high school. Not an opinion, just feedback from a small sample.

       
       
Joe as a die hard sox fan...  I wouldn't listen to a thing buddy bell says.  The white sox draft record is abysmal.  Thank God for sales and rodan.

       
       
I have attempted to make this point many times.  I wish you better luck.

I'm confused. 

 

Smoltz wanted parents and players to know that it is "not normal to have a surgery at 14 and 15 years old, that you have time, that baseball's not a year‑round sport, that you have an opportunity to be athletic and play other sports"

 

Did my 2020 just not get to this part in the journey yet? While he is on a team that lasts for a year he doesn't actually play all year, a majority of his play is March-July...the rest of the time practice is pretty much about speed/agility/strength...but nothing really full force until early February. 

 

Are there 14/15u kids playing year round, like actually playing games every month?

 

Sorry guys, I have to respectfully disagree.  I just jotted down the best six arms I could think of that came out of our area over the last five years.  All were pulled in several different directions over the summer and fall to high profile showcases, area code, pitch for scouts, etc. where it becomes very difficult to keep a normal schedule and to say no.  All had dads who were very "enthusiastic" about their kid's future and, thus, also had a hard time saying no.  Four never made it out of HS due to arm issues.  One threw too much summer after junior year and his velo dropped senior year, forcing him to go the JC route where he blew his arm out first year and had to leave the game.  One was starting P for area code his junior year (along with all the other events mentioned), was high draft pick out of HS and blew his arm out first month of rookie ball. 

 

There is another in our HS system who is highly touted, recently came back from USA baseball showing in NC, already committed to a D1.  He is clearly showing fatigue but we can't convince him or dad to start saying no I believe because they have draft aspirations.  (I guess they think my pleas are self-serving for the HS but that couldn't be further from the truth.)  I have little doubt at this point that he will have more serious arm issues in the next 12-18 months. 

 

On the flip side, we recently graduated a kid who throws very well but was never interested in playing summer or showcase ball and really had little interest in playing college ball unless something fell in his lap.  So, he rarely threw outside of HS season.  He finished his HS career sitting about 86.  We talked him into spending a month or two of his post-senior summer (while his arm was still in shape) attending one local D1 college showcase tourney and playing on a local summer college team.  He ended up on a D1 roster and is now sitting low 90's.

 

I agree that part of the "epidemic" is more awareness, more reporting and better medical technology to fix problems.  And I know this is anecdotal and a small sampling but, again, it is EVERY one of the best throwers from our area.  And I hear these stories play out again and again from colleagues in other areas.  Hardly "sky is falling".  There is definitely an issue with young kids pitching too many stressful innings over the course of each year and not getting adequate rest.  And in most cases, it's the best pitchers being pulled from all directions and having a hard time saying no to the next "season", team, coach, dad, event, showcase, scout or other opportunity to be seen.

 

 

Event after event is the key. Pressure to be there. But who does it benefit most? I think you made a very wise decision to shut down and stuck to that decision against popular theory backlash.

Of course, the dates you list are when the games occur -- and there is some overlap there (e.g. basketball and baseball both can have games in February, not even accounting for playoffs) -- but as you allude to, the real heavy overlap is with practices. At 2019Son's school, baseball tryouts are late November, and they go from that into practices in December and January. It is extremely difficult for a kid to play, say, basketball and baseball -- I mean, he'd have to miss most of the first couple months of baseball practice. And at large, competitive schools with lots of kids who will go on to play D-1 in college, it's difficult. Fall-Spring (e.g., football-baseball) is much more doable.

I could see someone argue that too many kids are pitching instead of just throwing.  But we all know kids in the past generations who threw their arm out and they didn't have the year round options like now; so was it an epidemic or jsut what happens?

I certainly don't agree with the word epidemic.  Seems like lots of people are latching on to that word these days.  Do they call all those hip replacements and knee replacements they do these days an epidemic?

 

That said it is a serious issue that needs to be addressed. Any surgery is a serious issue.  There is no magic formula for eliminating TJ surgeries.  We have joined MLB and USA Baseball in using the PitchSmart guidelines. The hope is to help educate people regarding abuse and recovery.

 

There is no perfect answer and everyone knows that. It is all about fatigue because everyone seems to agree pitching when fatigued is dangerous.  Problem is that every pitcher is different when it comes to fatigue setting in.  You could have a 100 pitch limit, but some pitchers can't get to 100 pitches without being gassed.  Others might be able to go more than 100 without getting overly tired.  So the truth is that some pitchers should not throw 100 pitches in an outing, no matter what the guidelines are.

 

PitchSmart, like everything else, is not perfect. However, it does provide good information that if followed would in fact lower the chance for surgery in many cases. It can help educate many that don't understand extremes.  Common sense then needs to prevail.  The kid that is completely gassed at 50 pitches shouldn't throw 100 pitches because the rule says he can.  That last 50 pitches are very dangerous! Sometimes we see pitchers that are done after a couple innings.  They lose some control, their velocity suddenly drops, their breaking balls aren't as sharp, but many times they stay out there as long as they are getting enough outs.  Even if those outs are due to luck and line drives being at someone.

 

We have seen all types of pitchers that end up with TJ surgery.  Seen those that have been overused and seen those that really played ultra safe. One such pitcher who went in the 1st round a couple years ago. I doubt he ever threw 100 pitches in an outing and doubt if he threw more than 50 innings total his last two years of HS.

Good for you!

This is about parents using their common sense, and you did just that!

Best of luck to your son!

Drop me a pm to let me know where I can see him play!!!!!

I am glad my school has chosen to pay for me and my assistant to treat injuries happening at club events. Because realistically, that's what is happening. Do we have injuries that occur in our school team events? Definitely. But I am just guessing that ~70% of the injuries we dealt with this past year were injuries that occurred in club/travel/select practices and games. Other than a couple of concussions, all but one or two of our baseball team's injuries this year were overuse injuries. And they occurred before the school season started. In every sport, it's bad. Soccer, basketball, dance, cheerleading, baseball, softball, volleyball. You name it. OUT OF CONTROL.

Your chances of reaching the majors

Round 1:      66%

Round 2:      49%

Round 3-5    32%

Round 6-10   20%

Round 11-20 11%

Round 21+    7%

Non drafted   4%

 Its all about development and projection. The more you play the

better you can be. The better you are, the higher you get drafted.

The higher you get drafted, the better your chances for making it

to the majors. Why would a very talented 6'4" pitcher want to break

his ankle or dislocate his shoulder playing basketball, when he has

a chance to be a top round draft pick? I can see why some of these

top players give up other sports.

       
       
I totally agree with your point and will take it one step further.  Even if you are one of the ones who never makes the bigs just being drafted in 1st or 2nd round is life changing money.

It seems so interesting that each time this gets posted and discussed, (a lot on this site!) posters seem to grasp onto ideologies and preconceived notions.

For me, this is just a learning experience to understand other ideas and to consider them, not reject them without consideration.

For me, pointing to 1st and 2nd round picks is of little help.  The discussion is for the vast majority of players and their parents, most of whom may not ever hear their son's name called during the draft, but they are pushing really really hard to get that direction(and pushing many others along the way).

As TPM noted, one of the major issues is the TJ's for kids who are 14/15/16/17.

I guess Dr Andrews could be wrong but, for this poster, there isn't anything posted thus far to suggest anyone has more and better experience than he does.

Having Tommy John surgery is also "life changing money." Except it's leaving your possession instead of going into your possession..

Have you actually looked at Andrews findings?  Everyone gets the concept of not over pitching a kid, problem is even the accepted limits are guesses and proved wrong for some kids.  Another constant debate on here is when is it okay for a kid to throw a curve ball?  It's widely accepted the younger you start the more damage you do....yet Andrews own study couldn't find any proof it did any more damage than a fastball.

Some people on this board say their child made it because they didn't pitch much when younger.  Others profess their kid made it because of intense practice from a young age.  Many say kids don't throw enough, others say no overhead throwing for 3-4 months to fix micro tears.

I think one of the only things the board agrees on is that genetics play a huge part in if a kid makes it.  The rest is just opinions...make your own.

Fair enough. I don't think the 1st or 2nd round data has anything to do with TJ -- at least I didn't intend it to. It's a different point about multisport athletes. Every time I see someone like Buddy Bell say that "he preferred athletes who played multiple sports" . . . um, I'm skeptical, to say the least. Really, I think the whole "multisport" argument in the baseball world is code for "football makes you tough" . . . 

The opinions of doctors weigh much heavier than the opinions of individuals who are making big money on sport specialization. And those people are out there. I have heard Dr. Andrews speak on more than one occasion. I have read his book (which I suggest y'all read as well "Any Given Monday.") and I have read plenty of the research coming out of his facilities.

 

Nobody knows better than he does. When he speaks, I listen. Parents of athlete would be wise to do so as well.

       
       
2019 don't get me started...   preaching to the choir on the big bad tough football player thing.  Caco you make a lot of really good points.  Would like to think its not all genetic and a kid can work hard to succeed.  But you are undeniably correct that we have yet to pinpoint how to actually keep arms safe.

"Have you actually looked at Andrews findings?"

Many of them actually. I read everything referenced to him even though our son won't play another inning.

It is information. It is highly reliable information from the orthopedic surgeon who is with the very, very best in terms of seeing the damage sports like baseball can produce and correcting them like not many do with surgery. I would think the study showing a "properly" thrown curve ball (interesting how things get remembered) does not cause more issues for the elbow and shoulder than a properly thrown fastball lends credence and objectivity to what Dr. Andrews and his peer group are providing as guidance.  I believe you will also find the article strongly supports the view that most curve balls are not properly thrown by youth pitchers.

But what do I know?  Just seems to me that one might think too many of  those on the way up dismiss the message and messenger.

 

Like I said!!!!!

""football makes you tough" . . . "

 

Football can provide a different mental approach which can translate well to baseball, especially for a guy who has to mentally work through the the mental challenges which exist as someone moves up each step beyond HS baseball. Tough in football does translate to baseball unless the skills already exist to play both sports.

The mental focus and strength which can be learned from football certainly can translate. I never played HS football.

And I did! That's funny. I love football, but, like I said, I'm skeptical -- baseball players from Japan, Korea, Latin America seem to do just fine without getting football training to teach them mental focus and strength. And the point about the 2015 first-round draft picks applies, too -- that is, those kids are succeeding at the highest level (for their age) without that football training.

 

I don't know anything about Korea but have exposure to your other illustrations.

For those playing in Japan, the game is taught with a respect and discipline which is far closer to US football than baseball, from very young ages.  Personally, I think the background of baseball in Japan correlates very well with the idea football teaches the mental focus and strength which is too often missing in our youth baseball.

Latin players are just a point of personal experience but I can assure you those with 6 figure bonuses can struggle in Milb. I have also seen a $1,000 senior sign (yes, football)  pass by 6 figure bonus guys from Latin countries who had incredible tools, but were overwhelmed in Milb, probably for a lot of reasons.

There's nothing wrong with a properly thrown curve at any age. The problem is most preteens don't throw a curve properly. Then add in the typical preteen coach knows little about mechanics and mechanics affected by fatigue (dropping elbow). 

This football thing is driving me crazy.  My high school holds the record for most mlb players produced in the state of illinois.  Last I knew they were still neck and neck with mount carmel for most football state titles in illinois history.  So kind of a nice case study fir us.  Produced way too many college baseball players even to remember.  So let's just look at the kids drafted while I was there...  two kids drafted three years ahead of me.  One played football one didn't.   2 years ahead of me not sure we had a draft pick.  One year ahead of me one did not play football for sure and I can't honestly remember if the other did.  My year we only had one drafted and he was a back up on football team.  Year behind me had three draft choices none of which played football that I can remember.  Some did, some didn't.   Only one was a football stud - and gordie told him he would cut him if he came out his senior year cause he didn't want to jeopordize what was likely to be a major league career.  Classy move.  He did go on to a long and successful mlb career.  And he would quite possibly have been the best QB in the state.his senior year.  We won the football state championship without him and he was the overall number 2 pick in the nation.  A happy ending for all.  And a football coach who was smart enough and selfless enough to know football was NOT what was best for him. Some  football people tend not to see beyond their nose.  IMO they think because in high school they draw the crowds and revenue that life begins and ends with them.  Football is ABSOLUTELY UNECCESARY for success in life and believe it or not (please don't upset the football people by telling them this) a man can actually grow up tough and disciplined just fine without football.

2020dad,

 

I believe that 2nd over all draft pick from Illinois is someone we know very well.  His son (not from Illinois) attended several PG events.  His son was also a very good pitcher, just not as good as dad.

 

Here is the way I look at football.  I love the sport and I do like those kids that play both football and baseball.  I do think there is an advantage that some baseball players gain by playing football.  At the same time there is a risk involved.

 

We know of one potential 1st round baseball player that ended his athletic career on a football field.  However that is sort of rare.

 

Anyone that thinks football is necessary in order to have any advantage is simply not following the MLB draft every year.  Whether anyone likes to hear it or not, the vast majority of those drafted in the first couple rounds are those that in fact played only baseball.

 

Last night the Astros were playing the Angels on television.  The youngest starting pitcher in baseball Lance McCullers (specialized in baseball).  The youngest player in the Major Leagues Carlos Correa (specialized in baseball) The star of the game Altuve (specialized in baseball). Two HRs by Astros Tucker and Singleton (both specialized in baseball).  Home Run by Angels Pujols (specialized in baseball) catcher for the Astros Conger (specialized in baseball). The games best player Trout (specialized in baseball). The list goes on and on of the top players in the game that specialized in baseball when they were young.

 

It would be revealing if someone actually researched the topic before telling young kids what they should do.  Go down a list of all stars or hall of famers, or whatever, and research what they did when they were in high school.  I believe that would be very interesting and revealing.

 

All that said, there have been many multi sport athletes become baseball stars.  So my point is, do what you want to do!  It can and it has worked either way.  The one thing that most MLB players have in common is they played a lot of baseball when they were younger.  Anytime you play a lot of something there is always a risk of injury involved. But lets face it, that risk of injury is most obvious in football.

 

There are a lot of tough people that never played football.  There are high schools that don't have football.  Football is a great game, I played it because I loved it.  I played baseball and basketball for the same reason.  In those days that is what many kids did.  Now days many coaches like their kids to play one sport.  Believe me it is far from a baseball thing.  Maybe we should research the NBA and see how many of those great athletes specialized in basketball only?

 

It is really kind of simple, the more you work at something the better you are suppose to get at that something.  I know this topic is about pitching and Smoltz.  I sure don't believe pitchers should compete year round.  But there is nothing wrong with concentrating on that craft year round.  Taking time off can be a good thing if you are a pitcher.  Taking time off can be refreshing for any athlete.  However, how do you become a better piano player? How do you become a better video game player?  How do you become a better golfer?  Gardener? Cook? Carpenter?  

 

How do you become a better baseball player and hitter?  

 

While I am at it.... Burn out is a word that describes FAILURE!  Those that reach the top didn't burn out. If you want something bad enough and you believe you have the ability to go get it... You don't burn out!  Only when you stop believing does burn out set in.  Even then it is just a simple excuse for giving up.  Truth is, there is nothing wrong with giving up, everybody does it at something. You don't need to look for an excuse. It just didn't mean enough to you.  Because when it means enough no person or obstacle can burn you out. You just try to find the way. Then if in the end you fail, you don't need any excuses.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry, guess I was referring to football And didn't check for other sports.  You have to think Trout would have been a great HS football player. Yet he played baseball in the fall.

Actually, Trout's father was a HS football coach.  Mike played JV, but never varsity.  He stopped playing to focus more on baseball his soph or junior year.

Nailed it PG.  Thats all I am saying.  Do what you want.  Live and let live.  More than one way to skin a cat.  My son will probably play basketball all the way through high school.  Not because he expects a basketball scholarship,  but because he enjoys playing.  His dream is in baseball and while he also plays basketball he will be doing something baseball related year round.  And burn out is not anywhere close to setting in.  His dream.  His choice.  Not a matter of right or wrong.

Yeah what PG said!

My son specialized in one sport in HS. But from grade school on until HS, he played other sports, volleyball, soccer, golf, basketball, bowling, swimming, etc. He did not specialize in baseball until HS.

The point being, he didnt play baseball 365 a year and didnt play baseball and other sports at the same time.

I think that is the point of the whole speech he made, but that is MO only.

Originally Posted by cabbagedad:

… There is definitely an issue with young kids pitching too many stressful innings over the course of each year and not getting adequate rest.  And in most cases, it's the best pitchers being pulled from all directions and having a hard time saying no to the next "season", team, coach, dad, event, showcase, scout or other opportunity to be seen.

 

Very nice post!

 

I’m betting a lot of folks are mistaking their little Nolan Ryan for being among the best pitchers, and since they really aren’t, they don’t see the constant pushing and tugging the top players are getting. Just because Jr. had a great K:BB ratio or won a lot of games for his HS team, it doesn’t mean he’s an elite pitcher.

Two of JP's 2016 travel ball teammates (different teams) have already had TJ.

 

Both are very high-velo guys who pitched too much at a young age.

 

Both have (at least temporarily -- maybe permanently) lost out on huge opportunities. 

 

Why any parent of a high-velo pitcher at 14-15 would allow him to be overused is beyond me.

 

 

Can you give examples of what their overuse was?  Obviously pitching 150+ pitches every Saturday for 10 months would be overuse, but can you be specific on what theirs was?

Some questions.

 

Probably in all sports suffer to some degree from a rash of overuse injuries.   But does any sport suffer more from it than baseball -- pitchers in particular?  I'm guessing not. Maybe tennis?  Swimmers?

 

Some sports you couldn't possibly play all year round -- you would be far too beat up at the end of the year.  I'm thinking football, mainly.  Or things like it -- rugby, possibly lacross.    So presumably it's mostly non-contact sports that have morphed into being all year round sports. 

 

Is the main reason to be a multisports athlete to prevent overuse and burnout?   Or does playing multiple sports actually somehow help you play each one better?  I'm not sure, but I suspect the former not the latter.   It's not as though the skills you need to be an outstanding point guard have much to do with the skills you need to hit a 90+ mph curveball. (Correction -- that would be a 90+ mph FASTBALL -- not many guys throw their hook at 90. Actually does anybody? ) Ask Michael Jordon about that guards hitting baseballs. 

Football and hockey are probably the two sports where you would be least likely to survive playing "year round." That's one reason football has developed the 7v7 that they have. Baseball/softball, swimming, soccer, distance running, basketball, and volleyball tend to be the worst for us. Our kids play all the time. I think volleyball tryouts for club teams fall only two weeks after the school season ends. That will run all the way until the middle of the summer until they start the school season again, basically.

 

I have to have conversations with kids from a lot of different sports on a regular basis about the need to back off. We have to help them prioritize what is truly important and what can be missed. Sometimes that means I even have to go as far as to put a kid with a lower body injury on crutches or a kid with a shoulder issue into a sling; just to get them to STOP. 

Pitcher 1: From 12 or 13 years old on, he was CONSTANTLY working on pitching. Lots of long-toss (don't know details), and played in Texas for select teams that were in a LOT of tournaments starting in February -- often VERY cold weather -- all the way through August at least. It wasn't consecutive-days pitching, or throwing 150 in a game (although I did see him at 14 throw 125) -- it was just obvious that this young man was over-pitching. He was out for brief spells with arm issues almost every year from 12-15. And he'd come back, healed and HURLING. I'm talking mid-80's at a very young age -- 90+ in HS. It all ended with the SNAP! His elite D1 offer included. 

 

Pitcher 2 is from the northeast. He worked his tail off. Long toss all the time. But guarded fiercely by his select coach. Unfortunately, as a senior this year, his HS team was heading to State -- and his HS coach pitched him with one or two days' rest (can't remember), and when the MLB teams that were looking at him as a 95+ very high draft pick had him take a physical, they diagnosed the tear.

 

Both are sickening.  

Here is my biggest beef regarding TJ surgery.

 

ASMI did a survey among all those players that had TJ surgery.  The findings were then released and included many factors that then were used to determine what the major causes were.

 

That in itself is great, but it is not everything we need to know.

 

Listen, I have never claimed to be very intelligent, but to me this is only a partial survey.

 

In order to find answers that truly represent the problem, you would need to take an equal group of both TJ guys and non TJ guys that were in similar situations.

 

For example what if that survey showed that a large percentage of those TJ guys played travel baseball, but a much larger percentage of the non TJ guys played travel baseball.  Even better what if the survey showed 30% of the TJ guys went to more than one showcase and played into the late fall, while 85% of the non TJ went to more than one showcase and played into the late fall.

 

I am not saying that those would be the results. I'm just saying that in order to get a true picture you have to account for both ways.

 

Guys like Zach Greinke played year around when he was young.  He also pitched and played a position. He was a very good player and hitter.  He played travel ball, he went to showcases, he even went to a showcase over the Christmas holidays. I really don't know if or how much he rested or how much he was over used, but he sure has logged a lot of pitches in the Major Leagues.  Shouldn't he be part of any survey?

You're right, PG.

 

Do you know ... was Zach a really high-velo guy when he was young? 

 

I don't know what I don't know, that's for sure - but I believe based on what I've read that pitchers who throw really hard are at a higher risk. And today, we see a LOT of young pitchers throwing very hard.

 

Maybe not.

 

Would you say PG sees more high-velo guys as a percentage of the whole today than they did, say, 5-7 years ago?

 

 

jp24,

 

Zach played in many of our tournaments, but that was before we started to log them all. He was a 90 mph guy both from the mound and from the infield. he even threw well from behind the plate, but he didn't catch very often. before his senior year he was up to 94 mph. during his final HS season I think he was up to 96.

 

Yes. it seems like most every year the number of high school kids throwing 90 or better is increasing.  20 years ago when PG first started we would get very excited when we would see a kid touching 90.  Now days we see a larger number of kids that are touching 95 or 96.  They seem to be bigger, stronger. more well trained, these days. Then again once in awhile we will see a little guy that doesn't look very strong throwing 95.

 

I see where (I believe it was the Mets, but not sure) brought in the same pitcher after a 45 minute rain delay.  Be interesting to see if anything happens. If so it will probably first show up in lower velocity next time he is out there. I've seen it before.

While lengthy, I think this is a nicely done summary of the "risks," the "risk takers" and why both sides are seemingly willing to take the risks, with the summary of Brady Aiken, if true, being quite poignant.  It is also interesting to see Stan Conte of the Dodgers now turning this into a cost issue noting that the DL in MLB is now a tab of $655,000,000 per year, when the salaries of those on the DL are factored into the equation.

 

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_...surgeries-cease-soon

 

 

From this, one comes away with the idea that behavior changes need to occur, but they are not likely to occur unless they are economically driven, from the top, no matter what opinions  Dr Andrews, Dr Fleissig or any other group of medical experts might advocate.

While certainly not as life threatening, is the "risk" of overuse injury in baseball any different than the risk football players are now encountering with the emerging information on both the short and long term impact of head trauma and concussion?

Clearly, that research is only in its formative stages but seems compelling.  For a very few, like Chris Borland, the information and risk assessment caused him to change his behavior and no longer play in the NFL. For 99%, it is a risk they continue to accept, either knowingly or ????.

For baseball, shoulder surgeries and failed recoveries are, to be honest, a charade in terms of available information. While the numbers of shoulder surgeries appears to be on the decline, the population which recover to play even at their former levels was reported in 2008 to be less than 1 in 4.

For TJ, clearly most think it is a temporary setback and risk to be taken. Riding that fine edge of "risk" is worth it, especially for the players this thread, for whatever reason, continues to emphasize: the elite players drafted at the highest levels.

From a purely personal perspective, most of our sons will never reach the top 2 rounds of the draft. They are the nameless ones no one can cite but they are so important to us because they are our sons and they love baseball.

For them, one of the greatest parts of baseball can be the opportunity to compete and play in college, especially at a National level, whether it be JC, NAIA, D3, D2 or D1.

For a parent, watching their son on a quality college baseball team can be special. Personally, I am not sure I will ever forget the impression when ESPN scanned to justbaseball in the stands in Omaha in the 2008 CWS when his son was on the mound. For me, having this discussion is  truly is about the opportunity for the player on and especially after HS, emphasizing the experience which college baseball can provide.

This year Stanford lost their #1, #2 and #3 pitchers for either all or most of the season. The #1 had TJ at a point where he missed nearly all of 2015 and probably will miss most of 2016, when he will be drafted.  The kid who could have been their #1 is no longer even on the roster and pitched less than 5 innings over two years, a career lost to shoulder problems.

Just yesterday I was talking with the Dad of a local D1 who underwent TJ in May after being shutdown in late March, so he will miss most of 2015 and all of 2016.

This is truly all about a risk assessment. On the one side is the goal post...drafted or top D1 baseball and all the "apparent" exposure which parents and players feel is required from ages now 14-18 to get to the goal post.

On the other side is the risk, which is real but not to be quantifiable in  numbers for any player, parent or travel team and showcase folks, each of whom play a role in  riding the edge of  the "risks" of exposure vs injury vs. the goal post.

Frankly, each position in the risk assessment can rationalize a perspective, shoot the messenger, undermine the message and justify their position.  Just my view, but realizing there are no true "answers," only some appreciation of the risks and factors known or thought to generate risk from overuse vs necessary exposure vs unnecessary exposure vs the goal post, vs Zach Greinke vs Dr Andrews should be the goal of this discussion.

Understanding that the player has a mindset to do everything to compete and the more they compete the higher level they want to compete, and the higher intensity they will exert, the responsibility for an informed risk assessment falls on folks like us who post here. Information is golden for those who approach baseball from the different perspectives available on the HSBBW. There is plenty of information on this thread from every perspective and certainly from the opposites on ideology.

Hopefully those reading this who have sons like ours, a really nice player but not mentioned in the same paragraphs as those discussed previously will benefit from knowing there can be  risks associated with exposure, such as  the one the scouting bureau reportedly  created Brady for Aiken in January of 2014. 

There can also be experiences never to be forgotten in terms of baseball, and appreciating the Aiken situation, avoiding risk and eliminating  risk cannot be a deterrent to achieving those. In fact, overcoming through adversity and risk will often make the experience be felt at levels never anticipated.

I would agree with almost all of that. Only thing is Brady Aiken was not injured and was throwing 96 mph when everything changed.  From what I understand, it was discovered he had an abnormal UCL (I believe smaller than normal). That is what created the problem with Houston.  He did later (this year) have TJ surgery and still went in the first round, though a ways later than his previous 1st over all pick.

 

So we can't claim exposure got him.  We can only say that the Astros knew what they were doing and were aware there was more risk involved in paying him the max due to his small UCL. Later on we found the Astros turned out to be right.  Now it will be interesting to see how Brady's career turns out. I'm hoping he ends up being a great Major league pitcher.

 

That story just adds one more important element to the issue. What about the UCL you are born with? Genetics doesn't seem to be brought up that often. I doubt Brady Aiken is the only young man out there with an abnormal UCL.  And maybe others that seem to pitch forever without TJ, were born with an abnormally large or stronger UCL.

 

I'm not drawing for straws, I just believe this issue is so complex that we are just scratching the surface.

 

That and I happen to know some things about the subject that I simply can't say at this time. Reason being is I don't want to publicly discredit anyone or anything.  Those people involved at ASMI, MLB, USA Baseball are all doing the right thing with PitchSmart. And they also know it will take some time before we have all the answers. Educating the people is the first step and that is the goal for now. We will never figure it out if we just settle for what we have to go on today.

Why is it any more sickening than any other player that can no longer play?  Do you think player 1 would have had the same opportunity without all the work?  Do you really think player 2 had a partial tear because of one short rest?  If so the tear was going to happen at some point.       

Is there a new report.  The last one reported was based off of self reporting.  Again has anyone defined what a "properly thrown" curve means? 

It's not more sickening, Real Green. Sorry it sounded that way. 

 

We all do the best we can. I'm not judging anyone -- parents or players. 

 

I'm just saying to the parents of high-velo youngsters: Learn as much as you can, because he is at higher risk than most -- based on one dad's observations.

 

 

 

 

You are right, partial tears don't happen on short rest. And why is it sickening? Injuries happen.

CaCO3,

Here is what I consider a problem. I have a friend who has a 10 year old who has played more LL travel games this summer than sons 15/16u team.  Its August,  almost time for school to start here and they are off to CA for more baseball. They play fall ball as well.

My friend says he wants to play ball in college someday.  

Do you think he will? 

Did I mention he is a pitcher?

 

All I'm saying is it's unfortunate -- anytime ANY player gets hurt. Poor choice of words.

       
       






I said awhile back on this thread that the only thing we can all agree on is genetics plays a role.  Some guys seem to have untearable UCL's, while others are failing while following the pitch smart rules.  I am a scientist, I need actual data to crunch.  Until the technology is widely available to measure the strain on each persons arm I don't think any of us know anything for sure....we have educated guesses, but much like the people in the 17th century thought that old meat just spontaneously produced the maggots...not ever understanding small fly eggs that they couldn't see we're the cause....we don't know what causes a pitchers arm to fail.  We are waving our hands and pointing at data going see, see.....but as several people have pointed out there is no actual data, only guesses.  Will I be monitoring my kid to make sure he follows the pitch smart rules, yes.  Am I sure that if he follows them to the letter he won't have to have TJ surgery at 16, NO!

Ok. Forget about TJS.
There are many young players these days having shoulder surgery as well.

You asked for what constitutes overuse. Of course a lot depends on genetics. 

So does common sense, which many people lack when it comes to their kids and baseball.

JMO

Funny. Right before I saw this I saw a facebook post from a friend about their kid still playing baseball. They started two weeks before ours started playing and still have at least one more to play in before the summers over. They are then going to roll into fall ball. By the time the seasons over they will probably have played more games then most MLB players. I made the comment to my wife about overuse issues and how this kid always seems to have a strained this or that. Not sure how the family has not yet made the connection. 

I think that was his point as well. My thought is anything in excess may not always be good. Do 10 year olds really have to play so many games?  Especially coming from a warm weather state. Save it for when it really counts, in HS when you have to go out on the recruiting circuit.

Having any injury at anytime in a players career puts him behind the 8 ball.  We played it careful because we wanted him to get through HS ball, college ball and get drafted. All players get hurt at some point, its where and when that could determine your next level.  

Smoltz already had a successful career before he had TJS. So did many other pitchers. Did they play ball in HS, other sports as well. Doesn't matter, he had already arrived.  

There are a lot of players having TJS these days you will never know about because they just never recovered.  

Do you want your son to be included in that statistic? Or would you like him to get to play college or higher, or even HS?

Not sure why this is even debatable.

The debate isn't do you want your son to be hurt or not, the debate is how much is too much?

There is some logic in attending batting practice 52 weeks a year, I find zero logic in working on pitching 52 weeks a year.  While my son may be on a year round team there were about 20 games from August to mid October and 60 games from February to June.  July is a tryout period for new teams and pick up games and Mid October to mid January is shut down period for ALL players to focus on speed, agility, and strengthening. They don't have a single pitcher training during that time.

Some people who drink the Kool-aid spend the shut down time on weekly or twice a week pitching lessons.  Those are the kids I worry about.  The term "year round team" to our neck of the woods simply boils down to don't join another team during that time, not that they play games year round.

It would be interesting to know if there are many, or even any, kids that play competitive baseball for 12 months a year.  Doesn't almost everyone take a couple months off from competitive baseball at some point during the year?

 

Risk and Reward...

 

No risk, play it 100% safe = No Reward

Too much risk, over do it = Jeopardize the Reward

 

All we can do is be as smart as possible.  There is a risk every time a player takes the field or a pitcher takes the mound. You cannot reach your potential without some risk being involved.  Will your priority be 100% health or give it 100%, all you have?  Obviously it needs to be somewhere in between.

 

My biggest problem is (that in between area) is different from one pitcher to the next.  I don't mean the obvious over use or lack of recovery time.  Everyone seems to agree on one thing for sure... Fatigue being the biggest culprit!  But what if one pitcher is capable of reaching 100 pitches before fatigue sets in, yet another pitcher reaches that point in 50 pitches?  We all know this happens, we are talking about pitchers being different in every way.

 

My personal opinion is, it is vitally important that someone, coach or family member, knows what their pitchers limitations are, especially when it involves fatigue.  Then the 50 pitch limit guy can possibly gain on that limit in a somewhat safe manner over time. But throwing him 100 pitches now is likely to create serious injury at some point. But no matter what, there is no way to completely eliminate risk and still reach your potential.  It is possible to be aware of the most dangerous risks. If safety is the only thing that is important to you and your son being a successful pitcher is not important, then... "Don't let your babies grow up to be pitchers"

Guess that would depend on your definition of "competitive." Since there are tournaments in all 12 months out of the year and showcases, I'd say there probably are some who are playing every month of the year. 

At 9U, my son's team played in something like 70-80 games. 

 

He loved it, but he wasn't a pitcher. 

 

If I had it do do over, I don't know.

 

Yes -- this is my point. Thank you.

You can't forget about the money aspect of this -- especially for the tournament organizers and the travel organizations,  In these parts there is a certain facility and a certain organization that runs baseball tournaments practically every week of the year.  They hardly ever go looking for teams to play in those tournaments.   

 

On the other hand, practice space and indoor facilities are quite limited.  There are a few organizations that can survive while not playing in the fall and winter because they have indoor facilities,  So they can keep their teams together and have them work indoors in the fall and early winter without having to play that much.   But a number of these "local" travel teams basically play all year round -- especially the below HS age teams.  Why?  Cause they canCause they make more money by doing so.  Because parents are a bit gullible perhaps.   Because they think by playing all year round their kid is going to have a big competitive edge.  And on and on. It's a bit insane.  I remember being out at a certain facility in the neighborhood for an early January game at 8am when my son played 13U I think it was.   It was COLD.  But we all had the illusion that playing baseball on a cold January morning was somehow good for our kids. 

60 games from February to June for that age group is more than many college programs play.

But you live in an area that is so competitive people think their kids will miss out on something if they don't play a lot of baseball. I get it, its that way here too.

So who is really drinking the KA?

Someone should do a study on how many pitchers from the Atlanta area breakdown before or after college. 

JMO

 

JMO

That was 14 tourneys, over 4.5 months.  Playing about 3 weekends a month.  Each tourney had a 3 game guarantee, so it could have been only 42 games if the kids had always lost their first pool play games, which  they didn't, and they had 10 games their week in Cooperstown.

  So no, I don't think that's too much, nor do I think we are drinking the koolaid.  Please keep in mind, 12u is 6 innings per game....if the mercy rule doesn't come into affect, or the 1:40 minute time constraint.

Its your perogative to justify whatever you want.

Its hard to say sometimes what makes our kids improve - or what makes them fade.  I do know this my son has played an average of more than 60 games a year since age 9.  Every year he has improved more than most kids his age.  Hopefully next year will see more drastic improvement.  I have always been careful About how much he pitches but I definitely feel playing a lot of games has helped.  I have no way of proving that just like no one has any proof of why some kids get hurt and others don't.   So I respect all opinions and just try to do the best I can to keep my son safe.  But I don't think 60 game a is overkill.  JMO.

Curious. What do you allow your son to pitch per game, how many times a week, what other positions and what pitches does he throw? 60 in what amount of time.

       
       
60 games from late april to mid July.   Now fall ball.  Don't like more than 7 innings a week pitching.  Some weekends of course we are off and he does no pitching.  In fall ball there will be minimal pitching as at least around here they usually pitch about everyone one or two innings each.  When all is said and done he will play about 90 games between late april and early October.   He also plays 1B.  In fall ball he may play some 3B and C as they move kids around a lot in fall.  October, november and December we will do little throwing of any kind.  Certainly no pitching.  In January he will throw a little at a.pitching camp.  Then take the rest if january off.  Start throwing in February and march.  Then another couple week break in early april before going full bore.

I just wanted to get an idea. What you do with your player is your business.  Its easier looking in the rear view mirror than looking forward.  Looking back, son didn't play as much as some of yours. I still stand by my word its too much for that age.  Only time will tell if that is a good choice for him.  Especially for pitchers. Some people I know who have pitchers but still think playing more is good, don't have them pitch at all in fall.  What your player does at 12/13 could impact him negatively at 17/18.  I know you don't see it that way and I know you don't understand.  And he doesn't need to play in a PG event until he reaches HS and has played at least one year. But if that's what floats your boat, fine. More is not always better when bodies are growing and changing.

 

My son was lucky, he remained healthy until he entered pro ball. From there it was downhill.  Sometimes I wish he had not began pitching at 9. If I knew then what I know now, he would not pitch until high school.  I wish I had someone who advised me to do so.

 

Ever wonder why ML pitchers don't let their young pitchers pitch?

 

 

 

First I assure you I.do understand.  And I also understand that we really can't put our finger on what it takes to remain healthy.  That being said we do everything we can to safeguard his arm.  This year he.took the approach that he would cruise when he could and get outs less stressfully.  Less strikeouts but less stress also.  I am entertaining not letting him pitch in fall ball.  This will be his first fall ball experience since he was 10.  He has.the.chance.to compete against 15 and 16 year olds and I just thought it might be a good experience for him.  But yes I do worry.  But you can't put them in bubble wrap either.  And the former big leaguers I know do in fact let their kids pitch.  But no doubt these are difficult decisions.  What I really hate are these january camps.  He loves going to his dream school for a pitchers camp every january.  So I take him.  But it does disturb that down period.  I understand that colleges are going full tilt by late january early feb. So this is when they can do these things.  Thing is though the odds of him ever going to that dream school are remote at best.  But at the same time I believe that if he pursues his dream vigorously even if he doesn't make it he will be better than if I tell him 'give that up its just a dream'.  Difficult decisions no doubt.  One thing I definitely feel though is you cant wait around for your freshman or sophomore year to get started.  Unless of course you are naturally supremely gifted.  So I continue to research and respect all opinions because this arm injury thing is a story still in progress.  Hopefully someday soon we will have some definitive answers.

Not sure what definite answers you want. Can't even begin to tell you how many people here on this website have had pitchers with injuries. They just don't mention it because its personal info.  But as someone said to me recently, you guys have to figure this out yourself.

Having your son throw "softer" doesn't prevent injury. 

FWI son pitched ONE season in Jan, that was for recruiting. If you hate the camp, don't send him. Best programs do fall/summer camps. The  others do it to make money. 

 

This is all a very personal decision. But usually the more enthusiastic dads who are living through their sons dreams seem to disappear. I am pretty sure the kids get hurt and that's it. 

 

No one says you have to stop playing, but 90 games for 13 year olds, just doesn't work for me.  Save those bullets for when he really needs it.

 

You left out what your son throws. 

JMO

At what point does a parent become a parent and tell a kid NO???

 

I use this analogy a lot when it comes to sport specialization. If a kid really likes math and is good at math, do we let the kid only study math starting at age 9? HELL no. So why are athletics different??? 

Just curious, are there a lot of 9 year old kids specializing in one sport?  I understand it is more common among high school age kids, just didn't realize specialization was that common among 9 year olds or even those under 14.

 

Once again, among the three major sports (football, basketball, baseball) I think basketball has the most year around specialization.  In fact, summer basketball is sometimes made mandatory by some high school coaches.  It's also prime time for college recruiting.

PG, it's either this thread or the same topic on another website where there are parents talking about how their kid is playing baseball only at the age of 9-10 years old. It's DUMB. And a kid who "since the age of 9 averages 90 games per calendar year" is DUMB.

 

Baseball isn't the only culprit. Soccer is like that, basketball is like that, volleyball is like that, gymnastics is like that. They're almost all like that. Really the closest thing you see to a two-sport athlete today is a football player who runs track. That's really about it. 

Ok just to clarify - again.  My son plays baseball AND basketball.  He actually juggles AAU ball with baseball in the summer and plays traditional basketball season as well.  So he also plays 60+ basketball games a year.  Is that irresponsible too?  When he was 9 he played football basketball baseball and also swimming.  He dropped swimming when we read that competitive swimming and pitching is an unhealthy combination.  He dropped football.  We don't want to get into that again.  Now he is down to 2 sports as he enters 8th grade.  He is getting very close to high school and he has made his choices.  Who said anything about playing 90 games a year since age 9?  I guess my parents never started being parents cause we were playing something either organized or unorganized 365 days a year.  They are kids with plenty of energy.  My son is well within the pitching guidelines.  If a kid chooses to play baseball only or play 200 games a year Why is that a big deal?  Forget pitching for.the moment.  Just playing cause the kid loves it.  You think down in mobile alabama willie mays and hank aaron didn't carve out some extra baseball time due to the warm climate?

You did say 90 games. That's a lot, plus he does overlap sports. Its not always about throwing, there are plenty of young bodies that get overworked who are not pitchers.

 

FWIW, ours played other sports but never at the same time. And never two teams at the same time. Did he love the game, yup, he was a field rat, with limitations. People for some reason think that because some of us don't or didn't have our kids play as much as them, they didn't love it as much as theirs.  I get that.  

 

Don't be upset, we are just trying to help you, as I said its much easier to look in the rear view mirror. 

 

Those pitchers that let their sons pitch, are they current pitchers or ones that played for a long period of time or short?

 

When people talk about what about the guys who pitched tons of innings, one of sons pcoaches in milb was Dennis Martinez (2 seasons). Dennis is a recovering alcoholic. He told the boys to get through a game he popped pills and then drank to go to sleep. His son is a pitcher, he didnt begin to pitch until later just before HS, and his dad made him go to college.  These guys just don't want their teens having shoulder or TJS. 

 

I agree with bulldog, when does a parent learn to say no. I understand we had to do it. With all we didnt do, he had issues. If you saw my son you would understand, perfect pitchers frame, excellent mechanics.  Unfortunetly both of his issues were biological in nature.  He made it through college, he made it through the draft, he made it to the 40 man roster.  He never made it to the ML field, he took it well, but I know how much it bothered him. 

 

But when all was said and done, we could look at ourselves in the mirror and know that, even back then, we did all we could do protect him, that was reasonable in nature. 

 

You don't have to know exactly what it is that makes one player break down and the other doesn't. But that doesn't mean that common sense does not have to prevail.

 

As I posted once my daughters boyfriend had his young son play two very physical sports at the same time. Plus wrestling.  This began at 8. We talked about whether it was healthy or not, to him it was, playing multiple sports would make him a better athlete. Until he was diagnosed with OSD in the knee. He was really devastated that he didn't use common sense and this is a REALLY REALLY smart guy, but IMO didn't know how to say no.

 

Just to be clear, mine did not play baseball in the summer until he reached HS. 

 

JMO for some serious advice. Dont be mad, if you want you can send a pm. 

 

The 90 games was in reference to this season only.  Again he is well within the amsi guidelines.  I DO take every precaution to keep him healthy.   What am I supposed to say no to?  No you can't play AAU basketball?  No you can't play fall ball?  So the amsi puts out these guidelines and even following those isn't enough?  Do we not see at some point it is paranoia?

And I want to quickly add...  we are wrong if we specialize.  We are also wrong if we don't specialize but overlap sports.  As much ad we.may want to we can not bring back the 1950's.  Its a different world.  Other than the naturally gifted of course...  you just can't play a 20 game rec ball schedule anymore and compete.  Thats what the kids who feed our school do.  It ain't working.  The state of wisconsin barely produced any college ballplayers not very long ago.  Now.due.to a few good organizations popping up (one of which my son plays for) there are more college bound players than ever.  Instead of always looking at the negatives of travel ball or showcasing etc.  Lets look at the positives.  Kids do develop this way.  That is a fact.

And while I am at it (on a roll why stop?) When I first got.on this site I said my kid was a borderline kid.  Of.course I expect he could play D3..  who couldn't really?  But when it comes to D1 and certainly beyond there is absolutely nothing to indicate he is a slam dunk for that.  Maybe this is as good as its gonna get for him.  Why not let him enjoy it?

I'm glad I couldn't afford travel ball until my son hit age 12.  From age 7-11 he played 20 games a year.

Its pretty hard to tell what direction a player will go at that age. He could turn out to be one fine young D1 stud.  Right? I had no clue if son would play ball as many years as he did.  

Does ASMI guidelines (they only are guidelines) take into consideration other youth sports played both at the same time? it may not be the right recipe for everyone.

Do you not think that youth sports have become over the top. My sons surgeon sees them at 9 with serious overuse injuries.  Too many overuse injuries.  

 

We are in a discussion, no one is condemning anyone, you are a good webster here, but this is a discussion and whoever reads can take away what they want from it. 

 

What is good for your son may not be good for someone elses.  

Do you follow the guideline of no radar gun?

Boy 2020, I am not sure your comments on Wisconsin are accurate.  For years, that conference has been one of the  strongest in all of D3 baseball-yes, I know, the one where anyone could play.  If you think that, you must know D3 at the bottom, not the top.

This guy was a 2nd round pick out of Stevens Point:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Zimmermann

 

The State of Wisconsin produces many high quality college players. They just don't leave the State and play D1, but many  certainly could. I would strongly support broadening horizons on college baseball.  To provide a current illustration, one of the top 10-15 Summer Wood Bat League teams in being led in many offensive categories and games played by a high quality D3 outfielder. Every other player on that team is from a D1 program most would consider top 25-50. Why not grab your son at the end of next May and head to Appleton, Wisc and watch some D3 college CWS baseball. It might be good for both of you.

I have a pocket radar you know that.  But I actually use it very sparingly and often to see when he has lost velocity and maybe needs to come out.  One thing a lot.of people agree on is pitching fatigued is a big issue.  Look like I said before I honor all opinions.  There is just so much conflicting research and so little known still at this point.  Back to the original point I just don't think specialization is inherently bad or causes injury in and of itself.  The key is that we all do the best we can.  Again my son does NOT specialize but I support the rights of those that do.

The reflex answer to that question is, "the 94% of high school varsity players who do not play college baseball." But I acknowledge that some of those players could play, but choose not to.

 

The more complete answer is that, yes, there are some D3 programs where just about anyone could make the team.  Of course, to do so, you first have to get into a real hard school (e.g., Cal Tech) or be willing to go to a school in the middle of nowhere (e.g., Maine-Presque Isle) or feel comfortable at a small school with a heavy religious emphasis.

 

However, if you're talking about baseball at a reasonably competitive D3, the answer to "who couldn't really?" quickly gets back a lot closer to that 94% of high school varsity baseball players. And if you're talking about the D3's that contend for the postseason, the answer is an even higher percentage of high school players who really couldn't.

Sully took a player from WI to pitch at Clemson, Jason Berken.

He played football as well. Had to delay his pro career due to TJS in college. 

 

I heard that he runs some great camp programs up that way.

http://fox11online.com/news/ma...ifference-in-de-pere

       
       
No doubt there is a big disparity between top level D3's and bottom level.  But overall there were 11 drafted this year and 15 last year.  Not a track record that screams 'lots of great players'.  Some really good players no doubt.  But most.of.those kIds who stayed in state did so because they couldn't/didn't get recruited at the D1 level.  Yes there are exceptions but that is the rule.  Now more and more wisconsin kids are going D1.  And there are plenty left for.the other levels too.  Point is its getting better.  And playing more baseball has been part of that.  And TPM obviously I hope my son achieves his dreams and does become a big time D1 player.  He has just enough ability and a lot.of size where at least it is a possibility.  But what I don't want to do is put him in that bubble wrap hoping for that...  then it doesn't happen and he never gets to play the amount of baseball he would have liked.  Believe me I do listen to everyone when it comes to avoiding injury.  Nobody wants that.  We just do the best we can.

       
       
well said.  Agree with every word.

Oh well??

2020, check the number of players drafted or selected as free agents from Trinity University in the last 3-4 years and compare it with D1 programs ranked 125-300, if that is the measure of "great players" and "great baseball."

I think the obvious answer is you want your son to be a top D1 player.  I hope that happens for him.

 

       
       
we would all like our kids to be top D1 players.  I am certainly not banking on that.  And if my son plays D3 - any level - I will be there watching him enjoy himself.

Don't forget NAIA.    

I know two kids off of my son's team high school team that started their freshman year at a NAIA baseball school.  

 It is certainly true that very few draft picks come out of D3 each year,  Still, I think you are both underestimating  how good what you call the "really good" but not great players who play at the top of  D3 are and maybe overestimating just  a tad the number of D1 players who live up to your standard of being "really great"   -- at least if by really great you mean players who get drafted. Though a lot more D1 players than D3 players get drafted,  you know it's also the case that FAR  from the majority of D1 players get drafted.  In 2013,for example,  just over 500 D1 players were drafted (roughly  60% were juniors and the other 40% were seniors).  There are just over 10,000 D1 players.  Not sure how many are draft eligible at any one time.  But let's say roughly half.  That's 1 in 10 of the draft eligible players getting drafted.   So by your measure, 90% of D1 players are not great either, right?  A significant thing about D1 is that talent is clearly not evenly distributed throughout D1.  UCLA for example had 8 guys drafted this year,I think,  but Butler had none.  If fact, Butler has had fewer guys drafted over time than Trinity University has.  Sure, there's a lot of distance between Butler and UCLA.  But that's my point in a way.   Probably Butler is closer to Trinity University than it is to UCLA in the level of baseball played there, I would guess.  Not sure, but I would  guess (though not be willing to place a bet on the proposition)  that by far the majority of the D1 draft picks come from, say,  the top 25% of D1 schools.

 

 

My statement was not intended to hurt anyone's feelings.  Just recognizing (as has been pointed out on this site before) that any player who really wants to continue their baseball career in college probably has an opportunity to do so somewhere.  That 94% thing is misleading. That's all.  And yes I do have a high bar for the word 'great'.  And yes I am sure there are a lot of D1 players who also don't meet that definition.  However if we take the D1 guys who quit after freshman year out of the equation I think you will find that a lot more than 1 of 10 get drafted.  How many juniors and seniors do you think are left on D1 teams?  It is not an even distribution among the four classes.  It is a much greater accomplishment to play D1 ball.  I will certainly not be ashamed if my son plays D3 and I think that is how my words are being misinterpreted.   That somehow I am looking down my nose at D3.  If some day my son plays for Whitewater or Stevens Point I will be very excited for him.  I will be his #1 fan just like if he accomplished the goal of going to his dream school.  Next year I am not coaching so some baseball season time will clear up.  Between my sons schedule and my own there is very little time to go to college games.  We saw one small college game last year and carved out time for a few D1 games.  But I promise you I will make my best effort to go see some high levwl D3 play next season.  I am sure that will be a lot of fun.

Sorry for the late response, school started today, lots of stuff to do!

 

To answer your question PGStaff, yes MANY children under the age of 14 "specialize" in one sport, and especially in the Atlanta Area.  I think the word specialize is too specific though, I know in my kids case he picked up a baseball at age 6 and by age 9 he was on a year round team because that is what he enjoyed, and what he continues to enjoy.  I have made it clear on multiple occasions that I would be happy to take him to football, basketball, soccer...and buy whatever, but he LOVES baseball.  He might play a pick up game in the neighborhood of football or soccer, but he's not interested in getting on a team.

 

FWIW, we didn't allow our LHP son to play year round ball until sophomore yr in HS. He thought we were being overly cautious/insert nasty-slang-term here. We knew his physique/velocity was not 'projectable' D1 level and, fortunately, we, the parents, didn't have to say one thing b/c experience in Atlanta as rising junior eventually made it clear. (Whew!) That said, he had serious looks by our local high D2 school. He will be playing high D3 next year (assuming a good fall work-out). Though not a brilliant student, he received a LOT of merit aid (the best kind there is!). I think it worked out beautifully. He didn't flame out in middle school. He didn't flame out in high school. And he gets a chance to play ball in college.

 

Why didn't we let him play year round? My better half knows Andrews and when our kid was 11-ish was told the stats about year-rounders. Yes, there are always outliers but the chances of injury skyrocket with year-round play. Also, re specialization: my player and his buddies didn't do multiple high school team sports but do a LOT of physical activity: wake boarding, snowboarding, scuba, ultimate frisbee, etc. They just came back from their 4th 5+hr day hike in our local mtns. 

 

The small, small, SMALL percentage of players going on to play high-level D1ball (and further) are, in my mind, the outliers. The bulk of our kids are regular kids with a cool chance to play a fun sport in college. Our job as parents is to remember that. 

Okay this is what I don't get!  You admit your kid isn't D1 material.  You admit the D1 guys are the outliers that can handle year round ball.  Yet, based on the advice of Dr. Andrews you wouldn't allow a 11 year old...a 12...a 13 year old to play baseball, which he loved, with his buddies year round...all to protect his arm which you knew wasn't D1 material.

 

Okay, to me this says you robbed your kid of the doing what he loves on the off chance he would hurt himself....I'd like to refer you back to the wrapped in a bubble comment by 2020dad.

it's true that many things cut down the number of upperclassmen on D1 rosters -- the draft being one of them. Some of the power schools seem to lose a significant chunk of their junior class each year to the draft.  Then there are injuries, on and off the field failure, and burn-out.  So you're right that it probably isn't right to think of 1/2 of D1 rosters as consisting of draft eligible juniors and seniors.  But still, even if you take account of attrition, I would bet it's still true that the VAST majority of D1 players don't get drafted. 

 

Here's a somewhat random sample -- trying to pick a range of schools -- and how many of their draft eligible players got drafted in 2015. 

 

• Of the 21 draft eligible players at the University of Notre Dame this year exactly 1 got drafted. 
• Of the 20 draft eligible players at Ohio State 4 got drafted
• Of the 17 draft eligible players at Cal State Long Beach 2 got drafted.
• Of the  9 draft eligible players at Vanderbilt,  all 9 got drafted.  (wow) 
• Of the 13 draft eligible players at Umass Amherst, 0 got drafted. 

 

That's  5 schools from different parts of the country, with 80 total draft eligible players, of whom 16 got drafted -- over half of them from a single power house school.  If that pattern generalizes over the roughly 300 D1 schools that means on the order of 20% will get drafted.   Of course, as you yourself point out, the attrition along the way is not insignificant.  So even if you land a D1 spot, you have to run the gauntlet before becoming draft eligible. 

 

Caco I hope they are talking about actually playing competitve games year round.  And pitching competitively year round.  But it is confusing because even in your climate do you know anyone who actually does this?  But as far as being involved in a 12 month a year program - part games, part practice, part strength and fitness - I don't see that as an issue.  I get the words of caution.  Nobody knows for sure what causes one kid to get injured and the other to not.  So caution is great.  But when it gets to statements like 'parents need to be parents' and 'our job as parents is' now I take exception.  I would never dream of telling someone else how to parent their children.  Its like that aunt or uncle who scolds their niece or nephew and talks behind the back of their brother/sister about what poor parents they are.  Everybody has a different value system.  We need to respect everyone's parenting without calling them wrong.  Seems like every specialization debate I wind up in this argument.  And my kid doesn't specialize.  But if he walked up to me tomorrow and said "dad I want to stop playing basketball and just focus on baseball" what am I supposed to say?  "No son I can't allow you to do that because it would bring me heavy criticism on HSBBW"???  Ok sorry, a little sarcastic there but really can't people just make their own choices without being horrible parents?

If your son wanted to specialize in baseball only then just tell him to specialize for six to seven months. If my son decided to focus on one sport there would definitely be at least a four month downtime

       
       
Remember one thing though...  its like the odds of rolling a three on a dice.  Its 6 t o 1 of course.  But if you roll it twice its 3 to 1.  Not a math teacher and I am sure in statistics and probability it is much more complicated than that.  But remember those draft eligible juniors have another shot as seniors!  So now that 20% becomes closer to 40%!  That's getting pretty large.  In fact I think the 1 in 5 is pretty large.  Go to baseball cube and look up 2010 rosters.  The smoke has cleared there.  And see how many kids eventually got drafted.  Now you will have to do a little work filtering out those who quit after their freshman or sophomore season but even if you leave them in it might be in that 20 or 30% range.  That's still pretty impressive.  Now.if we had the means and will power to some how sort it to guys who played...  like starters and pitchers who threw significant innings I bet that number would be astonishing.  Fact of the matter is if you are fortunate enough to be a D1 starter your chances of being drafted are pretty darn good.

       
       
Keep in mind part of this time is strength and fitness only.  but a baseball specific program.  Of course he usually hits in the cage some while he is there.  We do take at least three months a year with little or no throwing.  But that is our way not the only way.  Why would you need down time?  Burnout?  Most of these guys in our program...  I can not describe for you how in to baseball they are.  A sheer love of the game.  And I witness no burnout that I am aware of.  If burnout is a concern for your kid then give him the down time.  If my son says he needs a break from baseball then he will get it.  He drives the bus.  But when he wants to go hit or something we jump in the car and go to the facility.

 Uh, this  sampling includes both Juniors and Seniors.  20% of ALL draft eligible players -- including both juniors and seniors -- got drafted at these  five schools.  So your reasoning doesn't really apply.   Plus you do know, don't you, that seniors tend to go a lot lower in the draft and have a lot less leverage?

"  Fact of the matter is if you are fortunate enough to be a D1 starter your chances of being drafted are pretty darn good."

 

Only if you play in a top 75-100 of the 300 D1 programs.  You can do the math and find information on the internet. The vast majority of D1 drafted players come from top 100 programs.

I mightily apologize b/c I think my last comment was sorta misinterpreted to imply 'bad parents'. Not at all!! What I mean is that as parents, our job is definitely to make sure they know all about those wonderful odds! And play them according to the hand you are dealt. In our house, we don't second guess ourselves about whether by limiting his playing time we decreased his odds of getting to the D1 level or decreased his amount of fun 'cuz we sure had ourselves a bucket of fun doing the two summers of traveling to college camps and showcases and such. That was really a TON of fun and worth the money and time, etc. I really only want to chime in on the hazards of too much ball on a developing young man's body. And, well, my kid has a Dad who operates on young men with bad shoulder and arm injuries, so yeah, in our house, we definitely erred on the side of caution. Enjoy the moment everyone! It passes soooooo darn fast...

I think the point about juniors and seniors is that some of the juniors who aren't drafted this year will be drafted next year, so the number of players drafted, overall, from a given set of players (the set consisting of seniors and draft-eligible juniors) is a bit higher.

Overall, though, the point is correct that of course most D1 baseball players are not drafted, and, in addition, most of those who are drafted receive very modest signing bonuses.

I'm just reading this, so maybe it's been addressed. ASMI's studies did not, in any way, deal with "properly thrown" curveballs - only "self reported" curves. That means that even when included curves thrown with what some would consider bad mechanics, the curve ball was found to be a non-factor as compared to fatigue and overuse. Nissen, in fact, showed the curve to provide LESS stress than the fastball. I think it's time we lose the arguments concerning a "correctly thrown" curve versus a "poorly thrown" one. I think what you will find, though, is that the curve (and change, as well) is thrown with lower peak valgus angle (arm layback) than the fastball and this may well be a major contributor to elbow injuries. When trying to pinpoint pronation v. supination as a factor in elbow wear and tear, I believe we may be looking in the wrong place.

I've made this argument before, but think it again relevant. Heredity may be a big factor. Here's my theory (based on very little, admittedly). In the past, pitchers took on heavy workloads. How many of us remember the days when no one even thought about counting pitches and LL and high school teams would trot the same pitcher out inning after inning all season?  It's my belief that in the "good ole days" only those genetically able to withstand such a pounding made it to the Big Leagues. The rest fell to the wayside with injuries and quite pitching early in their careers - long before reaching pro ball. Today, we do a better job of protecting arms. As a result, many pitchers who do not have the genetic makeup of which I speak get farther into their careers than their genetic makeup previously would have allowed. Guys like Nolan Ryan and Randy Johnson probably could have thrown 200 pitches a game every four or five days for years with little injury risk. Guys like Kerry Wood probably not. By restricting young pitchers, we've greatly increased the pool of guys who can throw 90+ by keeping them healthier for longer periods of time. that's a good thing.

I'm struggling with this one, 2020. Why should we respect everyone's parenting?

 

Obviously you mean within reason, I'm sure -- but still. Think about how many REALLY AWFUL parents there are in this world. We have laws to protect children from bad parents, for goodness' sake!

 

By the same logic, I think it's incumbent on parents who've been there ... to point out where they think parents of ball players are wrong -- based on their experiences. When someone thinks I'm wrong about how I'm handling my son's baseball experience, I want to know it.

 

Then it's up to me to weigh that against my own experiences, beliefs, etc.

I guess I should have been even more precise and actually referenced some of the articles which use the phrase "thrown with proper mechanics."

 

Also, based on the 2014 published article by Yang, et.al. the youth curve ball is not fully exonerated.

 

http://ajs.sagepub.com/content...46514524699.abstract

"Nearly 70% of the sample reported throwing curveballs, which was associated with 1.66 (95% CI = 1.09-2.53) greater odds of experiencing arm pain while throwing."

 

 

 

You have to be careful with abstracts. I have the entire study if you want it (just PM me). The study was very careful to point out that while increased use of the curve did increase reports of pain, that this increase in reported pain did not apparently mean much since it did not coincide with any increase in injury risk.

I think the wisdom of the parents on this site that have been there and done that is invaluable.  I also think that several on here think that the way THEY chose to do it is the ONLY correct way to do it...and I think that is where 2020 is taking offense.  It's like saying only party X knows how to run the government and only religion Y worships correctly....parenting has no manual and we are all likely screwing it up in some way, or have already. 

Now THERE ... you are right, Caco. There are definitely moms and dads here who think they know it all because their sons made it to a certain level. And yes, they can be blunt to the point of ineffectiveness. But most aren't like that, and I just wanted to be clear: We sometimes ARE WRONG as parents. Or we WONDER if we're wrong. That's why we're here!

 

So being challenged as wrong is to be expected. After all -- feedback is a gift.

 

 

roothog66,

 

That is some real good stuff! IMO

 

You know I have heard from an extremely reliable source that there are hundreds of surgeons today capable of performing TJ surgery.

 

My biggest issue remains this... Everyone seems to agree that fatigue and over use is the biggest factor for all these injuries. I love having rules that help prevent some of the abusive pitch counts and lack of recovery time. 

 

However, we all also know that every pitcher is different.  The fatigue doesn't set in at the same time for every pitcher.  So how do we protect the kid that is totally fatigued after throwing 50 pitches, when the rules say he can throw 100 pitches?

 

So having guidelines are great and very helpful, it will actually take more than rules to keep everyone health or at least most pitchers healthy. It takes someone, coach, parent, etc., that takes the time to watch closely and determine what that pitcher is capable of and when he reaches his "personal" danger zone. When fatigue sets in!  Then we know that number of pitches he should throw for now until he develops more stamina and can throw a higher number.

 

Because of what we do, we see lots of pitchers.  We have seen pitchers that have had TJ surgery that never once threw what anyone would consider too many pitches.  So I have to believe that not every pitcher was born with an equal UCL.  I mean can't we just look at each other and see the differences?  

 

I totally respect Doc Andrews and everything he says.  He and his staff probably knows more about TJ surgery than anyone on earth.  That said, I feel like there is still a lot that is unknown. In the meantime all people can do is use common sense and at least follow some guidelines.  That is why PitchSmart is important, it at least gives some guidelines that will help many young pitchers.

I probably depose as many doctors as most so I fully appreciate what you are saying. I also understand that the UCL is most often a cumulative wear and tear deterioration.  There can also be issues with lawyers being doctors, and doctors trying to be lawyers in my experience, although both can create a lot of interesting things when they occur.

Many can read the same articles and come to different conclusions. This is one which would vary from the views that even an improperly thrown curveball has no risk:

 

"

 

I do agree that we have to also be careful with how we talk about pitching. To say curveballs are safe is, indeed, misleading. Pitching is not a safe activity. The article you linked concerning mechanics is as close as I've seen to something that agrees with my own views. My point - and belief - has and is that we are concentrating on some of the wrong areas. I think pitch type is way down the list of things that contribute to arm problems. I believe one of the biggest fixable factors, for example, to be late external rotation (the main problem with the inverted W). However, I'm also convinced that one of the biggest problems is extreme peak valgus angles in arm layback and, unfortunately, I don't believe this is a mechanical flaw. I think it is a mechanical peculiarity that is the biggest factor in velocity that can't be changed without decreasing velocity.

I think, however, that one thing that never seems to be emphasized is that the current pitch count guidelines are really meant to protect arms from the extreme situations. In the end, it's up to individual coaches (and parents) to closely monitor their pitchers so that they understand what limits and restrictions apply individually to their pitcher. I often see coaches who lean on these guidelines and substitute them for their own judgment. They seem to operate under the notion that as long as they stay within the guidelines, they've done their job. Unfortunately, there are a lot of kids being coached by staffs with no qualified pitching coach onboard. I see this A LOT at the high school level.

One more thing... I'm actually very thankful for TJ surgery.  It was the only reason my son got to continue his career.  I realize some don't fully recover, but I also know that many do. None of them would have in days days before TJ surgery.

 

Once again I only have a problem with the word epidemic.  John Smoltz was the very first TJ surgery to become a hall of famer.  Would he be a hall of famer today without TJ surgery? For sure, he won't be the last.

 

If there were no TJ surgery, there wouldn't be a TJ epidemic, would there?   It would just be like the old days when you blew out the arm you were done.

 

So I look at TJ surgery as a blessing in some ways.  Sure it's still terrible and you wouldn't wish it on anyone, but because of modern medicine it doesn't have to be the end.  Surely no one really thinks Tommy John was the first pitcher to ever have a UCL problem? The injury didn't start with him, the solution started with him. And now we are having pitchers get the surgery, that would have just kept throwing until it gave away completely, in the old days.  Then their career was over!  They weren't part of any epidemic, they were just done!

 

 

PG,

This information from  recent 2015 study might help better localize the medical concern and focus, which is on TJ for the population aged 15-19.  The study describes a "staggering" increase in the numbers for ages 15-19, and is also interesting in suggesting how misinformed so many are about the issue of overuse and TJ:

 

http://www.rushortho.com/pdf/E...n-UCLR-AJSM-2015.pdf

 

To address the issues which both you and Roothog have about TJ not being possible until recently, it appears the authors intend to do further analysis comparing TJ and ACL repairs in the involved age group of 15-19, since both are pretty new in the spectrum of successful surgeries amd sports injuries.

These authors conclude the rise in numbers for ages 15-19 needs to correlate with greater education and a better understanding of risk reduction, which hopefully some of these discussions will provide for those with son's ages 10-19.

I think, too often, the media tries to make sense of the rise in TJ surgeries. In doing so, they tend to try to use it in a way which doesn't work from a logic standpoint. An increase in TJ surgeries from 2007 to 2015 can only be used as evidence of one conclusion - TJ surgeries are on the rise. Take note that I didn't say it is proof that UCL injuries are on the rise. That may or may not be true, but the rise in reported reconstructions cannot logically be used to support that argument. It would be the equivalent of arguing that heart disease is greatly on the rise since 1982 by pointing to the staggering increase in artificial heart implants. It just doesn't work. In fact, I would venture to say that there is no way to settle this particular argument. It's a reporting problem. Prior to the last 10-15 years, most torn UCLs most likely didn't even result in a visit to a specialist. You threw out your arm, you either tried to pitch through it or you quit pitching. I knew lots of kids in the 80's that probably suffered torn ucls, but they didn't even visit a doctor, yet alone a surgeon. Their careers were simply over. Today, we do a better job with young pitchers. A sore elbow leads to - at the very least - a doctor visit. However, this increase in reporting makes it impossible to compare numbers concerning reported incidents of injury from 1990 and 2015 in a way that gives us any truly useful information. All we can do is continue to be vigilant and cautious. However, we spend too much time trying to compare incomparable statistics when we should be focused on prevention.

Infielddad,

 

Thank you for that link.  

 

I'm curious as to how many of the TJ surgeries involved baseball.  I would imagine a very high percentage, though I have heard about TJ involving other sports.  Also noticed a number of females listed in their discovery.  I have not ever heard of a female, softball player or otherwise, that had TJ surgery.  Of course, that doesn't mean anything, there are lots of things I don't know.

 

i would like to know if sports like tennis have many TJ surgeries?  Seems logical they would.  

 

The 15 to 19 ages don't surprise me, but I wish they separated it a bit more.  I would think there are many more from 17 to 18 than from 15 to 16.  Still very good stuff, thank you.

 

I would love to see more surveys and studies.  And for sure prevention is important.

 

This thread has posts which could be interpreted to argue there is no "increase" in TJ from 40 years ago other than the surgery exists,  so everything being done now is just fine, when we both agree that is not the case.

Don't you think 50% of HS athletes and over 30% of coaches and even more

parents thinking TJ is a proper prophylactic treatment  is somewhat alarming?(without attempting to alarm!)

Both you and PG are very persuasive and respected on this site. I think many could read this thread and come away with  the view that TJ is just "part of baseball" and nothing should change because UCL tears have always been part of baseball.

That may not be your intent and I can tell from our last exchanges that is not your perspective.  However, if over 50% of HS players and almost 40% of parents believe TJ should be done on a prophylactic basis, more and better education about TJ and the risks needs to occur.

Good for you Al Pal!  

No one knows at 9, 10, 11, 12 or even 15 or 16  what division a player may qualify for but you knew that your son might one day play at the next level and you did what you did based on credible info you received from Doc Andrews.  This has nothing to do with what division or level but avoiding injury to youth players.

Not understand why some just don't get that.

 

Don't make someone who hasn't had their son make it even to HS yet, tell you that you denied him anything or what you did was wrong.

 

Best of luck to your son!

My major concern is that too much time is spent trying to explain "why" TJ surgeries are up. They are on the rise because we perform more of them. Instead of asking that question, I believe we should ignore that particular question and instead focus on the question, "what mechanical deficiencies actually contribute to ucl damage?" More studies on mechanics and their physical forces would be a lot more useful than arguments based on comparative data that is logically flawed.

 

His speech was not about a professional pitcher having TJS, its about kids having TJS.

There is a very big difference.

Maybe I am sending the wrong signal. I do believe that ucl tears have always been part of the game and I suspect that the problem is no worse - and perhaps even not as bad - as it was in the past. However, it was a problem then and it is a problem now. It is a problem that was not adequately addressed in 1950 or 1970 or 1980 and it's not being adequately addressed in 2015. More real study needs to be done. I mean real study and not vague statistical analysis. We have the means to break down pitching mechanics and measure the forces applied, yet we've been slow about doing it. I think, if anything, that's the real tragedy here - that we drag our feet. I applaud organizations like ASMI,  ut what studies we've seen so far are only the very beginning of what needs to be done.

If it is true that 40% of parents truly believe TJ should be done on a prophylactic basis, why would they care about mechanics and prevention.

Doesn't the message have to be understood that TJ is a significant surgery, not always successful, can take 12-18 months for recovery and involves risks post TJ, to drive home a different message than even coaches currently ,so that there is a fundamental change belief systems in up to 90 to 95% of the  baseball population which appears to be most at risk?

Stated in a different way, why would a coach, HS player or parent of a HS player focus on prevention and mechanics if the player is successful with poor mechanics and lots of "innings" and work and they believe TJ is a good prophylactic treatment?

I know you "got it" but how do we get the other close to 50% to "get it" or do we?

True and I haven't addressed that part of the article yet. Maybe because I find it hard to fathom that people actually think like that. I just find it hard to wrap my head around. I think maybe those numbers a re a little outdated because that very issue was discussed a lot in the media early last year. At least I hope that data is old. I guess the remaining problem would be how do you go about educating people on this?

By doing the studies and authoring the articles you don't like? 

By and large, I have tremendous respect for our medical system, but that does not mean everyone in the system and the medical system is so large, the number of those who might be questioned is a growing population.

While it is hard to imagine, some articles a year or two ago confirmed ortho's were doing TJ, prophylatically. 

Infielddad,

 

I sure don't want anyone to think I feel TJ surgery is just part of baseball and just fine.  In fact, everything I have mentioned is about protecting pitchers and coaches and parents needing to get involved.  The example I gave about the 100 pitch limit and the kid that shouldn't go past 50 is all about prevention. I've said over and over that I love the PitchSmart Guidelines.  We actually use them!  Surgery, of any kind, is not something anyone wishes for.

 

Now if you are referring to my problem with labeling this issue as an epidemic, my question would be... Is this an epidemic?  

 

You are correct when you say there are people out there that think TJ surgery is an easy fix.  Personally, I think that helps raise the numbers because some feel if there is any doubt, lets get the surgery done now.  Years ago it would take total loss of the UCL, now it is done with partial damage.  Surely that increases the numbers.  Surely the fact there are hundreds of surgeons, rather than one or two only a few years ago, that can perform the surgery must mean something.  

 

I believe 100% that prevention is important.  Always have!  Never wavered from that view.  So I don't wish to be portrayed as someone that ino simply OK with everything.

 

That said, I also agree with the viewpoints that roothog has brought up.  In fact, I don't know how anyone can even argue them.  And nowhere has he hinted that everything is OK.