LH Pick Move......."Feinting Home"

Perhaps it's an umpire doing his job.

8.05(a) covers the shoulders part. He cannot make any motion naturally associated with the pitch and not deliver the pitch. Dipping the shoulder as if he is about to pitch may qualify for such motion. HTBT to actually see what was done.

Sounds like he may have gotten it right, he just didn't explain it well. The shoulder dip, to the umpire, was part of his pitching motion and then he went to first. I called one the other week where the pitcher swung his hands toward home but stepped to first. I told the the coach the hands toward home committed him to the plate. Not a wimper after that.

How is the leg lift/step to first for a lefty exempted from the action "naturally associated with the pitch" rule?

quote:

Originally posted by Emanski's Heroes:
How is the leg lift/step to first for a lefty exempted from the action "naturally associated with the pitch" rule?

The difference is he has to lift his leg to step to 1B. He doesn't have to lean/dip toward the plate to do it. And, there is nothing to say how high he can lift it. It is just one of those things where a lefty has the advantage.

quote:

Originally posted by Harv:
LH pitcher comes set. Uses normal knee lift followed by "step towards first" well within the 45 degrees. Nails the runner but gets called for a balk. Home plate umpire says he "dipped his shoulder thereby feinting home as part of his throw to first"

So where in the rule book does it specify what the shoulders must do as part of a continuous step and throw to first.

The term "feinting" is used elsewhere in the rules synomous with "faking". For example, with runners on the corners the pitcher steps back, feints to third and then pivots and throws to first.

Perhaps its just a case of an inexperienced umpire being over zelous.

Nahhh. Sounds more like an umpire doing his job. If a pitcher makes a move towards home, he's got to pitch to home.

I think it would come down to when he "dipped his shoulder". If in the umpires judgment the dip is after he has already step toward first (thus committing himself to throw to 1st) and then completes the throw, there is no balk. I guess if judged that the dip came before the commit to 1st then you can call a balk but the way you explain it I wouldn't. LHP have an extreme advantage holding runners at first, that is just the way it is. Some would say Andy Petite balked on every pitch. Check the box score... he didn't.

You know, I guess this is something they talk about in clandestine umpire meetings. I've had a chance to review the video now and there's absolutely nothing different in any movement prior to and including the knee lift which is the same (excpet for the occasional slide step) until such a time as he steps to first or goes home. Shoulder movements are all the same which is virtually zero until he starts his stride and seperates his hands.

Either way, save that one "balk", he didn't get called at any other time that evening and no one successfully stole.

Thanks for your comments.

quote:

Originally posted by Harv:
You know, I guess this is something they talk about in clandestine umpire meetings. I've had a chance to review the video now and there's absolutely nothing different in any movement prior to and including the knee lift which is the same (excpet for the occasional slide step) until such a time as he steps to first or goes home..

Nothing clandestine about it....

How many times did the umpire who called the balk get to see the video?.......I'll answer that, None ...he made his decision based on what he saw at game speed..(rightly or wrongly)

We (umpire staff here) have to assume that the umpire who called the balk saw something that "in his judgment" was a balk.....otherwise, we would have to answer "HTBT"...which means "had to be there"...and no advice on any situation could be given....

The fact you said he didnt balk any other time during the night to me suggests this move was a balk in the eyes of that umpire...

Usually pitchers who get called for a balk dont do that again in the game....

But then again , you have the advantage of watching the video...

PIAA,

See, that's why I would never wish to be an umpire. You guys stick together too much (IMHO) and rarely self police even in private. While I never publically debate a "call" in a game and tell my players "its the nature of the game" in fact I've witnessed many many times when the umpire didn't know the rules at the HS level and would not admit it even months later. We're not talking judgement here or having to make split second decisions on close plays. That's the nature of the beast and I'm continually amazed at how often most umps get the call right despite the dirt blowing and never knowing when a close call will be required. Pretty impressive.

However, for instance, I witnessed a pitcher going to his mouth to blow on his finger on a cold evening then direct to the ball while standing on the back of the mound. The umpire called "balk" and advanced the runners in a close game (scoring one from 3rd)when the penalty is a "ball" for the batter if the pitcher then engages the rubber. When I asked him quietly for an explanation he was quite adament (even confrontational) about his call and I returned to the dugout not wishing to create an issue. Months later this fellow still says he made the right call on the penalty.

In this particular case, as the pitcher made the exact same movements (agree I have the benefit of video) again many times throughout the rest of the game and was not called for a balk my assumption is that the umpire decided that his move was legal and he was incorrect on his first call. Once he did the "replay in his head" between innings he decided it was just a good move.

I posted my question simply because I'm charged with teaching players the game and if there's something I don't understand then I can't teach it. While this situation has caused me (and the players) to again closely review the pitching rules there's nothing to be learned except sometimes umpires get it wrong, imagine that, welcome to baseball.

But, I'll never understand how a LH pitcher can "feint" to home and go to first in one continuous smooth motion while meeting the 45 degree rule and not fall on his keester. If the body movements are the same going home or to first up until the step then there's no "feinting" involved. Its just his normal, likely well rehersed, delivery and body movements. Its just a good move that likely fooled the ump as well as the baserunner. If the pitcher did something different for going to first as opposed to home before the step then it wouldn't be a good move and would likely be picked up by opponents.

I've ordered the Jim Evans video just in case they have an example of how a LH pitcher can "feint home" while going to first and still meet the 45 degree rule. Again, I have to teach the game, not umpire it.

Another satisfied customer. Always glad to hear our explanations of why things are called.

Doesn't matter if we have never met, we stick together on everything. And, never, never say an umpire missed a call. That just does not happen. No thread on this site or any other has umpires saying other umpires missed or may have missed the call. Not from us.

And, I'll bet your umpire who says the penalty for "going to the mouth" never looked at the rule to see if he was wrong. It isn't that he won't admit it. It is b/c he never bothered to find out if he was wrong. He probably didn't even ask another umpire about it. Those of us on here and any on other sites are on here for that reason. We want to know if we were wrong. We want to get better. And, we want to help others get better along with us. Your umpire may not be trying to do that.

quote:

Originally posted by Harv:

But, I'll never understand how a LH pitcher can "feint" to home and go to first in one continuous smooth motion while meeting the 45 degree rule and not fall on his keester.

Not to worry. Understanding comes with experience.

Usually it happens when the pitcher leans towards home as he begins his delivery to fool R1. Happens often at the college level. I probably call that particular balk four or five times a season. I saw it called twice last year at the MLB level.

I find it amazing how you can make universal statements on umpires based on what some individuals do. That would be like me lumping all coaches together based on the two I had to dump this season.

Jimmy,

Thanks. If I could impose further. You say you occasionally call this situation. What, if I may ask, do you look for?

In the original case here the Ump said the pitcher "dropped his shoulder a bit thus feinting to home". In actuality, upon review of the video, his shoulder goes up a bit on separation of hands when going to the plate as he maintains balance while staying back. His shoulders remain level when going to first (and I'll have him remove that bit of give away info in practice). So a "shoulder dip", even though video didn't catch any dip, would not be indicative of a movement normally associated with this pitcher going home.

Likewise, the hips do start to move towards home with the stride but also move along the 45 with a stride throw to first.

What "leaning" or other subtle movements cause you to ring up a balk?

Thanks in advance!

quote:

See, that's why I would never wish to be an umpire. You guys stick together too much (IMHO) and rarely self police even in private. While I never publically debate a "call" in a game and tell my players "its the nature of the game" in

If you coach baseball how can you not also want to be in tune with the rules? Of course umpires stick together becasue they are a team; 2-man, 3-man, 4-man, whatever. Teams stick together and have each other's back. Yes the goal is to get the calls right. Unfortunately too many coaches want to work umpires on the judgement part of baseball (the strike zone, bang-bang calls), instead of challenging calls based on rule interpretations.

otownmike,

I said that with humor intended, the way most took it. I've never asked an ump to change a call but do sometimes ask "what he saw" so that I can understand his call. I recognize fully that what I saw doesn't matter during a game.

Please lets keep this on what Umps look for when calling a LH Balk for "feinting home" prior to going to first.

Since the moves appear the same and you have video, would it be possible to get clips of the balk called and ones not called to see if there is a variance to be pointed out?

quote:

Originally posted by Harv:
otownmike,

I said that with humor intended, the way most took it. I've never asked an ump to change a call but do sometimes ask "what he saw" so that I can understand his call. I recognize fully that what I saw doesn't matter during a game.

Please lets keep this on what Umps look for when calling a LH Balk for "feinting home" prior to going to first.

Just remember this song the next time you want to question the umpire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jD369DS7UDY

I second posting video of both examples. If you don't have a site you can Youtube it or save to photobucket and create a link. My answer was based on what you said the umpire said he saw. We are saying that is a viable explanation. I have seen guys start to come home ever so slightly and then swing out to first and get balked. Once you have watched the Evans video, feel free to come back for clarification. This is a good question and a good discussion, lets just make sure sticks to the subject and not us vs them discussion. We all know coaches are idiots so there is no need to discuss that. Just kidding.

Yeah, I think its a good discussion also. I'll try to upload a video this weekend. The kid's throwing again tomorrow and think we have the same PU. Wonder what's going to happen.

quote:

Originally posted by Harv:
Jimmy,

Thanks. If I could impose further. You say you occasionally call this situation. What, if I may ask, do you look for?

In the original case here the Ump said the pitcher "dropped his shoulder a bit thus feinting to home". In actuality, upon review of the video, his shoulder goes up a bit on separation of hands when going to the plate as he maintains balance while staying back. His shoulders remain level when going to first (and I'll have him remove that bit of give away info in practice). So a "shoulder dip", even though video didn't catch any dip, would not be indicative of a movement normally associated with this pitcher going home.

Likewise, the hips do start to move towards home with the stride but also move along the 45 with a stride throw to first.

What "leaning" or other subtle movements cause you to ring up a balk?

Thanks in advance!

First, a leg lift is a leg lift. It is not a move in any direction.

Once the leg is up, Now his body needs to lead were he will go. If he leans or moves as in his natural delivery towards home, he'd better pitch.

I would think that the front foot landing to the first base side of the 45 would be sufficient proof that he went "direct to the base" assuming he didn't fall on his keester. Certainly a LH side arm pitcher initially moves aggresively towards first with his upper body while his stride is mostly towards home. One can't feint to first either but they're delivery is not called a balk.

quote:

Originally posted by Harv:
I would think that the front foot landing to the first base side of the 45 would be sufficient proof that he went "direct to the base" assuming he didn't fall on his keester.

That's why it's such a tricky balk and extremely unfair to the runner. He sees the move towards home and takes off and is dead.

You sound like the defensive coach. View it as the offensive coach.

No matter how you want to justify it, it is a balk. It is interpreted as such at all professional levels and the NCAA clinics. It is a major area of balk instruction at proschools. It is one of the most illegally deceptive moves in baseball.

Jimmy,

Your real name isn't Joe West is it....LOL.

Anyway. I disagree with you and have tons of professional and college LH pitchers making exactly the same move and not being called for a balk.

The move is only deceptive if the runner is leaning towards the next base.

There were some 150 Balk calls in all of the 2010 pro games. Why so many at the HS level?

Frankly, the balk call on a LH that strides within the 45 is kind of what happens when lawyers get together. The purpose of them getting together gets lost in the discussion.

The umpires get the judgement on what's 45 (no speed squares allowed) and what's not. Now some also want to decide how far he can stick his butt out when he goes to first. And all this with perhaps the worst angle on the field with a two man crew?

Just once I'd like to see a video, or an actual demonstration, of a LH pickoff balk where the pitcher was 1st base side of the 45 but "leaned" towards home thus "feinting". Hopefully the Evans video has one. No umpire I know has been able to perform the maneuver without losing his balance. It seems it can't be duplicated in demonstration but is occuring in games. I want something I can point my finger at and say "okay, that's a rules violation" on this feinting thing having already given blue the judgement on the 45.

Until I can see this "feinting home" evidence from a angle that clearly shows it I'll continue to believe that the LH pitchers are within the rules but are fooling the umps as well as the runner.

If the pitcher makes the 45 and it is a smooth continuous movement, foot doesn't completely cross the plate, etc. then it is a legal move and anything else is conjecture and imagination on the part of the umpire IMHO. Facial features, eyes, head direction, chest direction, foot path, all are part of a good move.

Of course, I could be wrong, baseball is full of controversy.

OBTW: Your "umpiring seminars" you referred to were exactly the "clandestine meetings" I talked about in earlier posts. How many coaches and players were in attendance. Why do very reputable long time successful coaches at the highest level teach this move and have the player perfect every little bit if its illegal. Why is the exact same movements taught in Collegiate Baseball Magazine (very recent issues) but not refuted by a member of your profession. Is there any chance that some of your members are interjecting themselves too much into the game and making incorrect decisions from a really poor angle?

Wow. I can't tell if you'r paranoid or ignorant of what umpires go through to learn their craft.

NCAA clinics are designed to provide what AD's and coaches have asked for, improved umpiring and consistency. Coaches are free to come.

Anybody can go to proschool. Nothing secretive there.

Read 8.05...all of it.

A motion towards home followed by a throw to first is a balk. Plain and simple. You make it sound like a rarity...perhaps at your level. I see it in my college games every year. Every left learns this move.

Why is it taught by pitching coaches? Think man. Because it works. As several coaches have posted here, it's because not all umpires catch it and it such an effective move in nailing R1, it's worth the chance. And that's not the only rule that coaches play the odds with.

Sheesh...and they say umpires are naive.

Harv - can you post the video? That should put everyone on the same page as to what the pitcher did (or didn't) do to clear this up.

The Joe West line was funny. As to how coaches and players are at clinics, My local clinic there six varsity teams where we did live games, at least one JV team working our cages. The state clinic all coach are encouraged to attend.
I have attended many clinics run by MiLB umpires and we always use HS or college kids to work cages.

Mike,

Thanks for getting the joke. I'll try to get some new video on my own today. Last weeks video was erased from the owner's camera in prep for today (designated team photographer....keeps this particular parent busy and out of trouble ).

Thanks for including coaches and players in your seminars. It takes great umps, great coaches and great players to have a great game.

I was looking at videos available on the web of LH balk calls. You know the 45 deg line is directly towards the first base line from the center of the plate. It intersects the 1st base line at 90 degrees about a foot short of halfway to first.

Lots of the balks called were well north of that line, well within the rules. However, it seemed to me that the balks all had one thing in common. The pitcher foot was pointed towards the first baseline and his chest was pointed towards the first baseline more so than first base. All hallmarks of a good well practiced move, not a violation of the rules.

I'm wondering how many umpires have actually worked with LHPs on a mound outside of a game situation. Chalked the 45, fox tailed the mound, observed a move from behind the plate then gone and looked at where the foot actually landed. Perhaps even throw in some video taken from the first base dugout which clearly shows if the pitcher is drifting towards home. That's the way I teach the move, that's the way it is taught at many colleges and without doing this as an umpire I'm uncertain how one can learn to see what he's seeing and make an appropriate ruling.

I know you guys practice balls and strikes, hand signs, proper placement and positioning. I've even been to a short umpire school. But a great move, even when perfectly legal, is very deceptive to even those of us who teach it and see it every day. Good moves have heads, feet, arms, virtually everything pointing one way and the throw goes another. The knee lift, going home or to first, is very slow and deliberate trying to get the runner to commit early. However, only the overly aggresive base runner will have problems at first.

I'm concerned that some may be attempting to take something very special out of the game when clearly the rule writers want it there.....else they would have made the 45 rule more like 22 and one half.

For Jimmy: Yes, in this particular case I was "defense" however, I don't complain when on the receiving end either. I lump a good lefty move in with a guy who has a hellacious drag bunt or a table drop curve. All are very special to me, difficult to learn and difficult to execute. It shows me a player who has spent an enormous amout of time on their game practicing to be the best they can be.

I say runners beware. As long as he meets that 45 have at it. If you want to steal on a lefty with a high slow leg lift go on first move and bet the opposition will have trouble making the two throws, catches and tags typically required to get you out.

quote:

Originally posted by Mr Umpire:
...Doesn't matter if we have never met, we stick together on everything. And, never, never say an umpire missed a call. That just does not happen. No thread on this site or any other has umpires saying other umpires missed or may have missed the call. Not from us.

quote:

Mr Umpire's signature:
Don't settle for a "That's just the way it is answer". Question everything until you get an irrefutable or understandable answer.

Doesn't your above statement and your selected quote contradict each other?

quote:

Originally posted by redbird5:

quote:

Originally posted by Mr Umpire:
...Doesn't matter if we have never met, we stick together on everything. And, never, never say an umpire missed a call. That just does not happen. No thread on this site or any other has umpires saying other umpires missed or may have missed the call. Not from us.

quote:

Mr Umpire's signature:
Don't settle for a "That's just the way it is answer". Question everything until you get an irrefutable or understandable answer.

Doesn't your above statement and your selected quote contradict each other?

The "above statement" was a joke predicated on an accusation made here about umpires.

quote:

Originally posted by Harv:

I'm concerned that some may be attempting to take something very special out of the game when clearly the rule writers want it there

The rulesmakers don't want it there and it has nothing to do wth the "45". There are other rules covering balks.

First, let me reiterate, I am not talking about what your pitcher did. I didn't see him. I am talking about what LHP sometimes do: Make a move towards home and throw to first, regardless of where their foot lands.

Since you still have not, apparently, read the rule...here it is.

8.05 if there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when-
(a)The pitcher, while touching his plate, makes any motion naturally associated with his pitch and fails to make such delivery;

Cross References: 8.0l(a,b)

Historical Notes: This prohibition against a pitcher making any motion naturally associated with his delivery and then failing to make such pitch to the batter appeared in the Original Major League Code of 1876:

Rule IV. Pitching
Section 5. Should the pitcher make any motion to deliver the ball to the bat and fail so to deliver it - except the ball be accidentally dropped. .the umpire shall call a “balk, “and players occupying the bases shall take one base each.

Customs and Usage: The Balk Rule was designed to prevent pitchers from taking unfair advantage of baserunners. If there were no rules governing the mechanics and procedures of pitchers, baserunners would be drastically curtailed in their efforts to take leads, steal bases, and produce runs.
There are three basic types of balks: (1) Mechanical. The pitcher is not intentionally trying to deceive a runner but his actions on the mound do not comply with the delivery requirements established in 8.01.
(2) Deceptive. The pitcher acts in a deliberate manner to deceive a runner.
(3) Penal. Rulesmakers have determined that an appropriate penalty for certain illegal acts should be a balk.

quote:

I say runners beware.

Fortunately, you don't get to make the rules. The rulesmakers were very protective of runners at first. They get special protection.

Sorry Guys,

No video today. The lad didn't have anyone to work at first. One guy passed quickly by on a HR but that was it in 4 innings of work. Have video of a lot of K's....or at least the delivery portion. Regretably the 1 run he gave up was the difference on his outing.

Jimmy. I hear you and I have read the "rules" and I also see what the players at all levels do. Reality and black and white rules sometimes conflict. If they didn't we wouldn't need laywers, judges and courts.

You're obviously passionate about this as I've found similiar concerns expressed by you elsewhere in other posts, probably a RH'd kind of guy.

We're as far apart on this as Pepsi and Coke are on your local "stop and shop, gas" soda fountain. You say I don't get it and I say you don't get it.

Fortunately....opinions vary.

Jimmy, thanks for showing up and doing your job when the weather sucks and thanks for patience when being hollered at by a manager and thanks for being professional with strong views and a valued part of a wonderful sport.

Looking forward to seeing the Evans video. Hopefully it will show me how a fellow can go to first while feinting home and not fall on his tush.

Don't believe I'll be ordering any "Cowboy Joe West" umpiring vests just yet.....LOL

I can tell here from my computer screen the pitcher picked off the runner and the ump. Ump yelled balk and then had to give some kind of reason... so he gave the old, "he dipped his shoulder" and the game moves on...

Block/charge in basketball.
Offensive pass interference or no call in football.
Sports = close calls and then move on.

I'm only being a little bit sarcastic because Friday night I've got the biggest hot dog ump in our state. Nobody on base my pitcher in his wind up drops the ball, it rolls off the mound about 4 feet... Mr. Cocky calls it a ball and I calmly said to our dugout, "it's not a ball unless it crosses the foul line but I'm not going to give Mr. Cocky one reason to job our pitcher because that is exactly what he will do" if he hears a peep...

quote:

Originally posted by Harv:
I would think that the front foot landing to the first base side of the 45 would be sufficient proof that he went "direct to the base" assuming he didn't fall on his keester.

Nope. I balked a lefty whose foot was good, but to get there, he did everything in his delivery but pitch.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt13:

quote:

Originally posted by Harv:
I would think that the front foot landing to the first base side of the 45 would be sufficient proof that he went "direct to the base" assuming he didn't fall on his keester.

Nope. I balked a lefty whose foot was good, but to get there, he did everything in his delivery but pitch.

Matt, Harv apparently can't understand that there are two different rules governing this move. 8.05(a) and 8.05(c) and either can be reason for a balk. He seems to think that if a pitcher satisfies one, that's good enough.

Harv:

1. I'm left handed.

2. I understand the rules do not differentiate between Left and Right handed Pitchers.

3. In any rules debate, I am at a distinct disadvantage in that I am expected to accept and enforce both the rules and the applicable interpretations, customs and traditions as handed down by MLB, PBUC, NCAA and FED. I do not have the liberty of looking at something and ruling on it as I think it "should" be.

4. Any violation of 8.05 (a), which may or may not have occurred in your case, is enforced despite adherence to 8.05(c).

You guys are funny, as most umps are, except during a game. I'll show my guys this blog and have them watch the Evans video then tell them to "roll the dice and take your chances" when you need to press the rules for a pick

Still, if anyone has a video......its probably like that judge said about pornography, "can't define it but i know it when I see it".......

H

quote:

Originally posted by Harv:
then tell them to "roll the dice and take your chances" when you need to press the rules for a pick

That's exactly what most college pitching coaches tell their pitchers. They get caught sometimes, and they get away with it other times. I have no idea how it averages out.

But the difference between them and this thread is that they accept it's a balk and that sometimes they'll get caught.

Jimmy, don't think you get it.

Accepting "its a balk" is entirely different than "choosing one's battles".

For instance, new pitcher comes in 4th inning Saturday at start of new inning. Funky mound. After 5 pitches PH tells catcher to go to 2nd. Pitcher protests and says I need my 8. PH says you get 5 and any after that are going to be balls for first batter.

Kid called to me and I listened to what the problem was. I said lets just go with 5 and he gave up the game winning HR in his first inning pitching.

While most umpires I'd hope, have thick skin some, and I know this to be a fact, have thin and look to get ahead. The strike zone shrinks, you guys refuse to pull out a rule book and toss coaches that do. Well the simple fact is many just aren't that good.

I already talked about the "mouth to ball" called as a balk as opposed to a difacing the ball....ball to batter call. This isn't judgement, its the rules.

I've already talked about the fact that umpires don't police themselves, you guys don't serve as your own worst critics and the sport suffers because of this.

Christ, umpires took away a perfect game last year and the sport treats it a manifest destiny. This sort of power requires an extraordinary understanding of the responsibility involved in being an ump and many, especially at the HS level, just don't know the rules and the way the game is played, i.e. whats generally accepted.

So Jimmy, don't think coaches believe its a balk, they're probably not interested in going there, on a judgement call (which never get overturned despite all evidence to the contrary) when we all know it can cause nothing but pain unless its the last play of the game and the last time we'll see that particular ump.

Geez Harv did you really need to take this many posts to finally get to your ump bashing? It's kinda ridiculous to be honest. This thread was like a car wreck - I didn't want to watch but for some reason I couldn't stop looking.

Until you post the video to show us if your guy did or didn't balk we all pretty much accept the fact it was a legitimate call. Nothing else to go on so might as well take it at face value based on the fact you said the ump balked him. You don't like the balk rule......it's not going to change because you don't like it. Teach your LHP to get as close to a balk as you can without balking because it's still a legal move. Now whether it's because he goes too far or if the ump blows it just accept the fact and move on. You can't change it so why focus on what you can't change?

You say Jimmy doesn't get it but I think you're the one who doesn't.

Sometimes I wonder what color the sky is in some people's world.

It is apparent you really aren't here to discuss umpiring or the rules, but rather to bash umpires when you don't understand the rules. Good bye Harv.