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LHP

TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
@2022NYC posted:

Have your kid take a gap year then. I am sure IMG or these pop up academies will be more than happy to help you and your kid join the class of 2023...for a "modest" fee of course

Oh that will never happen because the parent was hoping son might get a full ride somewhere.

Already stated money will be gone.

That's not necessarily true.

Wonder, but have a feeling who the organization is that is speaking to the coaches, but it's the player who should be doing all the work.

So everyone has been so helpful but people only want to hear what they want.

What a waste of bandwidth.....

RJMRJMHSBaseballWeb member since 2007
@Rockers posted:

You guys need to stop living in the past and find something else to do. I am done.

It’s called paying it forward. If you don’t come in looking for validation of your thoughts and pay attention to the advice, you learn. When my son was in high school I was the advice receiver. A poster walked me away from the ledge when my son tore up his knee in the first travel game of post junior summer and all the interested colleges disappeared. Then my son taught me if you want something badly enough and have the talent you get back on your feet and make it happen. Now I’m an advice giver.

I coached rec and then travel for years. Providing advice is my connection to the game. It’s not living in the past. With my love for the game it’s living in the present.

I can only guess you came here sulking looking for sympathy. You will get an ounce of sympathy on this site. Then it’s time to buck up and move on to the advice. You chose to ignore all the advice. You have all the answers.

The reality is even without an arm injury Covid and added eligibility has made for a challenging D1 recruiting road. A lot of older players have stayed in college. It pushed a lot of talent down to lower levels. Kids who might have played at P5’s are headed for mid majors. It’s great for watching the game. It sucks for kids in the recruiting process. There are a lot of kids with your son’s metrics heading for D2 and D3 ball.

G GloFisher1,000+ posts

perhaps this was suggested earlier, but about about a post grad year?  there are several excellent academic options as well as those that focus on athletics..  Excel Prep, athletes edge, spartanspga, bridgton.. im sure i am missing a ton..  location and costs perhaps not ideal, but an option.  my son was also injured at a key time and looked into these...

DanJDanJ5,000+ posts

Something must be wrong with me.  My 2021 has been at his Juco for almost 3 weeks now, yet I am incredibly proud of my son, optimistic for his future, and more than anything - happy that he is truly happy.  But I'll work on it.  With a little time and effort, I am confident that I can start looking at Juco players as the embarrassment they truly are.  Wait.  Is "embarrassment" the right word?

A adbono10,000+ posts
@DanJ posted:

Something must be wrong with me.  My 2021 has been at his Juco for almost 3 weeks now, yet I am incredibly proud of my son, optimistic for his future, and more than anything - happy that he is truly happy.  But I'll work on it.  With a little time and effort, I am confident that I can start looking at Juco players as the embarrassment they truly are.  Wait.  Is "embarrassment" the right word?

For those who have no firsthand experience, the JuCo route is maybe the most misunderstood and least appreciated path. The most common misconceptions are that the academics are substandard, the level of play is beneath Little Johnny, and that the coaching doesn’t measure up to 4 year schools. Those of us that have been there know that these perceptions are false. In fact the level of play at top level JuCos is TOO GOOD for most college freshmen, and the level of coaching (if you do your homework) is likely to be BETTER than what a freshman receives at a 4 year school. Not to mention the obvious financial benefits. Bottom line is that there are more good reasons now than ever before to considering the JuCo route. But people continue to turn their nose up at the mere mention. SMH

O old_school10,000+ posts
@adbono posted:

For those who have no firsthand experience, the JuCo route is maybe the most misunderstood and least appreciated path. The most common misconceptions are that the academics are substandard, the level of play is beneath Little Johnny, and that the coaching doesn’t measure up to 4 year schools. Those of us that have been there know that these perceptions are false. In fact the level of play at top level JuCos is TOO GOOD for most college freshmen, and the level of coaching (if you do your homework) is likely to be BETTER than what a freshman receives at a 4 year school. Not to mention the obvious financial benefits. Bottom line is that there are more good reasons now than ever before to considering the JuCo route. But people continue to turn their nose up at the mere mention. SMH

The baseball side of argument I agree with you. the academic side IMO is just inaccurate, granted there are outliers but most kids at JUCO and most JUCO schools are just not academically strong.

at the end of the day my kids wanted to find a school and build long last friendships over 4 or 5 years, that is not the intent of a JUCO so from my perspective they were never appealing.

TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
@adbono posted:

For those who have no firsthand experience, the JuCo route is maybe the most misunderstood and least appreciated path. The most common misconceptions are that the academics are substandard, the level of play is beneath Little Johnny, and that the coaching doesn’t measure up to 4 year schools. Those of us that have been there know that these perceptions are false. In fact the level of play at top level JuCos is TOO GOOD for most college freshmen, and the level of coaching (if you do your homework) is likely to be BETTER than what a freshman receives at a 4 year school. Not to mention the obvious financial benefits. Bottom line is that there are more good reasons now than ever before to considering the JuCo route. But people continue to turn their nose up at the mere mention. SMH

I agree with everything stated above 100%.

Edit: Take a look at UM and FSU rosters, not easy schools to get into, yet they have plenty of JUCO players, it's just not mid D1 programs. It's also as mentioned very affordable due to FL Bright Futures. 

Last edited by TPM
JCGJCGStill working on a clever handle

Juco to Harvard or MIT may be called an outlier. My wife graduated Magna Cum Laude from UCLA, the highest rated public university in the country, after transferring from Santa Monica College.  She's not an outlier.

80,000 Junior College students transfer to the University of California system or the California State University system EVERY YEAR.

'nuff said.

O old_school10,000+ posts
@TPM posted:

I agree with everything stated above 100%.

Edit: Take a look at UM and FSU rosters, not easy schools to get into, yet they have plenty of JUCO players, it's just not mid D1 programs. It's also as mentioned very affordable due to FL Bright Futures.

So are you suggesting that athletes at UM and FSU need the same qualifications as the paying rank and file student?

TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
@old_school posted:

So are you suggesting that athletes at UM and FSU need the same qualifications as the paying rank and file student?

Yes, so do those coming from JUCO programs.

At  private UM, 52k+, Bright Futures doesn't go as far as it does at a FL JUCO for 2 years making it affordable.

You made a reference to JUCOS being academically poor. Maybe they are where you come from.  If that's true, how do these JUCO athletes get into P5 programs?  They have to have academic qualifications.

Stop trying to make people feel inferior because their players are headed to a 2 year program before they move on. I will bet that they will get plenty of great academic and athletic opportunities.  And they will make lifelong friends as well. Baseball is a brotherhood. My son still has close friends he played with for one season in proball.

I may have missed it, but what school does your son attend?

Last edited by TPM
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003

I am not going to give you the satisfaction of a reply.  One thing, I would bet that any FL JUCO could beat your son's D3, hands down.

The more you try to make me look stupid the more you look like an a$$.

I made a promise and going to keep it. Today is the first day of son entering an SEC program as a coach.  Which means this is my last day posting on the HSBBW.

I will bet that just drives you nuts.

I will still be here if anyone has any questions about the D1 recruiting process.

DanJDanJ5,000+ posts

I've got some really bad news for those who 100% believe that quality of education is a significant factor for a student.  It tells me people who feel this way don't get out much.  The fact is, it only is significant for a minority of kids.  75%, people.  75% of college grads end up working in a field not related to their major/degree.  If your kid is one of the 25% who is essentially guaranteed to work in their field of study, I have no doubt differing quality of education is an important factor.  For the majority - the 75% - ultimately all that will matter is having that piece of paper.  My ex was a straight A student in high school.  Not one B.  Went to a prestigious private college in the midwest where she graduated with honors - cum laude.  A double major in Sociology and Anthropology.  Worked in the social services field for half a year, couldn't handle it, and has never worked in any field remotely close to it since.  She is now a paralegel working for the federal govt.  Never received any formal education after her bachelors.  That high quality education and degree with honors today?  It means nothing to her passed having the piece of paper.  Because she is using NONE of the education now that she was taught 30 years ago.  A bachelors from Cheap State U with a 2.5 GPA would be just as meaningful as the degree with honors she actually has.  That sucks but that's how it is for the majority of people.  So unless your kid is essentially guaranteed to work their whole life in their chosen field of study, getting a 3.50 from Prestigious U won't help them anymore than a 3.50 from State U.  And guess what?  Should they spend 2 years at a Juco and then finish at State U, guess what school name goes on diploma?  Guess how many employers would kick them out the door if they realized the first 2 years of college were spent at a Juco?  I sometimes feel that a ton of parents here on HSBBW have kids who are in the 25%.  Or at least THINK their kid is in the 25%.  I sincerely hope that pans out for everyone who feels this way.  Your kid will have to beat the odds though.  Oh, and they'll have to beat the odds WHILE they're a student-athlete.  I'd be very curious to see what percentage of student-athletes actually end up working in their field of study.  But it's almost certainly less than 25%.

I am going to hope and pray that my son gets to work in his field of study, but I am also going to help prepare him for what is probable given history and the odds.

Last edited by DanJ
S Smitty2810,000+ posts
@JCG posted:

Juco to Harvard or MIT may be called an outlier. My wife graduated Magna Cum Laude from UCLA, the highest rated public university in the country, after transferring from Santa Monica College.  She's not an outlier.

80,000 Junior College students transfer to the University of California system or the California State University system EVERY YEAR.

'nuff said.

I found this surprising, so I looked it up.  35% of UCLA's graduates came in as transfer students, of which 93% came from JCs.  As impressive as this is, and the 80,000 total transfers into the UC and CSU systems, that's out of 2 million students in the California JC system.  So something like 4% successfully go this path.  So it seems as difficult to start at a JC and graduate from UC as it is to go to an Ivy.

O old_school10,000+ posts
@Smitty28 posted:

I found this surprising, so I looked it up.  35% of UCLA's graduates came in as transfer students, of which 93% came from JCs.  As impressive as this is, and the 80,000 total transfers into the UC and CSU systems, that's out of 2 million students in the California JC system.  So something like 4% successfully go this path.  So it seems as difficult to start at a JC and graduate from UC as it is to go to an Ivy.

Again pesky facts

O old_school10,000+ posts
@TPM posted:

I am not going to give you the satisfaction of a reply.  One thing, I would bet that any FL JUCO could beat your son's D3, hands down.

I agree with you and has nothing to do with conversation.

The more you try to make me look stupid the more you look like an a$$.

what you are posting is stupid I am just pointing it out.

I made a promise and going to keep it. Today is the first day of son entering an SEC program as a coach.  Which means this is my last day posting on the HSBBW.

we know, good luck

I will bet that just drives you nuts.

for the greater good I will survive

I will still be here if anyone has any questions about the D1 recruiting process.

L LousyLefty5,000+ posts
@Smitty28 posted:

I found this surprising, so I looked it up.  35% of UCLA's graduates came in as transfer students, of which 93% came from JCs.  As impressive as this is, and the 80,000 total transfers into the UC and CSU systems, that's out of 2 million students in the California JC system.  So something like 4% successfully go this path.  So it seems as difficult to start at a JC and graduate from UC as it is to go to an Ivy.

40% of CA CC students are over the age of 25.  I think there are a lot of students who use CC as a means to an Associates certificate (nursing, EMT, etc) or other forms of job training.  Our business recently paid for an employee to take two classes on CAD programming at the CC.  He will never transfer to a CSU or UC or even complete an AA for that matter. Creating a more skilled workforce is a critical aspect of education and this is a success in my mind. My point being we can't use the total enrollment of CCC to create a "failure to transfer" scenario when there many acceptable outcomes other than transferring.

I'm actually surprised the number of UC graduates who transferred is as high as it is.

P PABaseball10,000+ posts

The juco route is spoken of as the almighty or a hot pile of garbage when it comes to this board. There is very little in between and it's complete nonsense. Jucos are great for a few reasons. Jucos fall short in other areas. But slapping a "juco bandaid" on every situation where a kid may or may not be a D1 player isn't a solution.

From an academic perspective:

Jucos are great if you want an affordable education where you knock out a bunch of gen ed and early major courses. They're also great if you're not really sure what you want to do, so if you start flip flopping on your major you're not losing out on thousands of dollars. It's also great if you're looking to stay home and save money. It's easier to work at night, etc. It's even better if you're looking to go to a certain school and they have a matriculation agreement in place - you graduate with ____ Gpa you're auto accepted in a _____ University.

It's detriment(s) is that there are often limited course options, little to no social life if you're not playing a sport, small campuses, a student body of commuters, less options as far as facilities, internships, research opps, and generally speaking an administration that doesn't care much about the future success of it's students as graduation rates and job placement has no bearing on any funding the school receives. Theres also a very polarizing student body. You either have highly motivated students who know exactly what they want and went this route for a specific reason (to save money, nursing programs, engineering, emt, etc). Or high school underachievers who are going to college just to go or hoping to get into a four year. Let's face it, it exists. You're going to have a less motivated student body than you will at a 4 year.

From a baseball perspective

It's great in the sense that if you're at a top juco you're basically at a P5 program. If you made the top 15 JCs into D1 programs they would win at least 20 of the 30 conferences every year. They're also great for when you do move on, you have two years of playing time under your belt. You're also likely being brought in to start or contribute immediately.

The cons are that it's very top heavy. So the idea that juco baseball is superior to this level or that level is foolish. There is some really good juco baseball. Tx, FL, CA, Ok, Kansas. There is also some really terrible HS level juco ball that is spread out across the rest of the country. Your random juco in PA, Utah or Kentucky isn't going to be a powerhouse of future pro players. It's more likely to resemble average to lower level D2/D3 baseball than it is the top half of the SEC. A lot of juco opportunities don't end with the desired results, which is why I cringe every time somebody posts juco route when there is minor interest from D1s. Not all jucos are created equal. There's also the big one which is that if you don't move on, your baseball career is probably over. And even though you had some HA D1/D3 interest out of high school guess what, those schools don't take juco transfers as regular students. You have to really kill it at a juco to progress. You don't have to kill it at your D2 or D3 to get the baseball experience or degree you went in looking to get.

DanJDanJ5,000+ posts

@PABaseball  I can respect everything you've said above, but how much of everything you just said could be said for every level of college with respect to baseball?  A good deal of it.  No, I am not saying everything you said is universal across the board, but just for fun, go back and reread the post and sub D1, D2, D3 and NAIA in for Juco.  I think most will find a lot of overlap.

So what's that mean?  It means speaking in generalities/high level fashion is often just as wrong as it is right.  Or at the very least, perpetuates stereotypes that cast way too wide of a net.

"But slapping a "juco bandaid" on every situation where a kid may or may not be a D1 player isn't a solution."  Of course it's not, but I'm not sure I've read a post on HSBBW that argued it is.  EXACTLY like D1, D2, D3 and NAIA you can't blanket all Jucos as being "good" options.  Due diligence is required for ALL levels.

My buddies and I have had some conversations about Juco baseball.  Where we were raised in the midwest, it was common to grow up viewing Jucos in a negative light with regard to athletics.  That it's where D1 football and basketball coaches went to grab kids who could make a difference right away, but were likely to be academic underachievers and/or problem kids.  Juco baseball players - at least through MY experience - seem to be in a different boat than football and basketball players.  Is that fair?  When my 2021 was offered at the Juco he's now attending, the coach expressed concerns around his grades.  I was floored.  My son had a 3.10 (out of 4) at the time.  I couldn't believe a B average could even remotely be a concern at a Juco.  I'll admit that I could be ignorant/naive, but is anyone aware of any Juco in the country where a football player with a 3.10 GPA would be a concern to their coach?  I'll admit it's possible, but I've never heard of anything like that.

My point is that I think Juco baseball is fighting a lot of stereotypes that weren't necessarily of their making.  My son ended up at a very good Juco and has B+ grades, but when some people learned my son was going to a junior college, I got some of "those" looks.  It doesn't give you warm fuzzies when you feel compelled to offer a disclaimer that your kid's grades were easily good enough to get into all kinds of 4-year schools.

Last edited by DanJ
P PABaseball10,000+ posts
@DanJ posted:

@PABaseball  I can respect everything you've said above, but how much of everything you just said could be said for every level of college with respect to baseball?  A good deal of it.  No, I am not saying everything you said is universal across the board, but just for fun, go back and reread the post and sub D1, D2, D3 and NAIA in for Juco.  I think most will find a lot of overlap

I would actually disagree. You can go to the bottom half a D1 baseball and still see bigger, stronger guys facing low 90s pitching. You will not find that at the bottom half of juco baseball, same applies to the other levels. D1 is the highest overall level of baseball, it's not debatable. That's not a shot at the other levels either. That being said, I wouldn't suggest a lot of D1 schools either. I wouldn't ever recommend for someone to go to St. Peters or Coppin State just because it's D1. But put an MEAC program up against Cal Tech. It'll get ugly.

The post wasn't made to disparage juco baseball, quite the opposite actually. The post was made because people blindly suggest the juco route. Well what does that mean? Does that mean move down to Fl and go to Chipola or does that mean commute 20 minutes to the local JC. The juco route could mean literally anything from 7 draftees or a 7 run loss to the local high school. Specificity is needed. Target a top 25 juco, look at jucos in _______, this juco near you has sent x guys to play D1 baseball, go to a local juco and hope to be seen, etc.

I don't care where a kid goes to school, it's a piece of paper. They're either a competent functioning adult by the time they come out or they're not. The school is only important if you're specializing in something (engineering) or are looking to get into a field where the employer typically recruits from target schools (investment banking). Had mine not been offered scholarships at 4 year programs, I probably would have suggested the juco route.

Also, the coach questioning his 3.1 is a bit bizarre. Maybe he gets some financial incentive for staying over a certain GPA would be my only guess? If I'm correct, jucos are open enrollment, meaning there is no admission committee that rejects applicants barring any outstanding financial balances, high school discrepancies, criminal records, etc.

A adbono10,000+ posts

What’s true about JuCos various greatly from region to region. In the sunshine states (CA, AZ, TX, OK, KS, MS, LA, GA, FL, etc.) the top JuCos play really good baseball and some of them pay attention to academics too. In Texas, programs like McLennan & San Jacinto get whoever they want and those teams can beat a top 20 D1 on a given day. In addition, there aren’t near as many D3 schools in the sunshine states - D3s are highly concentrated in the east, and specifically the northeast. JuCo baseball is also the weakest in the northeast so players from that region seem to favor D3 over JuCo and that’s understandable. But in the sunshine states there are way more JuCos that play good baseball than there are D3s that play good baseball and kids from those states are more likely to look harder at JuCos. Especially since that route still allows a player to advance. Neither is right and neither is wrong - but the only time it makes no sense to consider JuCo is if your kid is HA and requires a specialized degree plan and/or graduates HS with a lot of college credits already under his belt.

ConsultantConsultant10,000+ posts

Adbono;

Santa Rosa JC has a student enrollment of 30,000 student and is ranked academic #14 in the USA. Baseball team is annually ranked #3 in the State. The California JC's are a "farm" team to the 4 year College programs.

The JC teams will annually "redshirt" 10-15 players.

It is very difficult to play as a Freshman. A Freshman should plan his classes that are transferable.

Bob

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