Like it was the World Series

Most teams whose games I work in tournaments or championship series, seem to possess the philosophy that first you have to get to the championship for an opportunity to win it.

7u Little League? Pitching? Championship games?

With that being said, I was always taught that you play for today because tomorrow isn't guaranteed.

I have never concerned myself with what the other team was doing. I believe its your job to take care of what you are doing and there job to worry about what they are doing. If someone wants to throw their ace their best #2 best #3 thats up to them. Its your job to put your team in the best situation to win and the players job to execute and play the game.

I have never worried about the next game until it was the next game. The game I am playing is the only game that matters. In a tourney format you play it one championship game at a time and you focus on winning that game.

It sounds like your upset this team threw the kitchen sink at you and you lost. Maybe you should have thrown the kitchen sink back at them? Good luck

And 7 year olds pitching in games? Maybe I have been away too long from that age group but that seems way too young to be pitching in games to me.

Enjoy it while you can. In a couple years you'll wonder how the parents of 7yo could care about what happens at that level. In a few more years you'll wonder how parents of 12yo could care. In a few more years you'll wonder how anyone could care about youth baseball. In a few more years you'll wonder why anyone cares about...

We almost all care a bit too much about whatever level our kid(s) happen to be playing at and sometimes forget how much it meant to us back then. The reality though is that a 7yo playoff doesn't mean anything one way or the other and the important thing is that your son's coach made sure he took care of his pitchers, although he may have simply been trying to win the championship and miscalculated.

Great Post CADad. So true.

quote:

Originally posted by rodk:
But instead of abiding by that course, the number three seed spent its 3 best pitchers up to the legal maxes just to beat my son's team, playing it like it was the World Series

I think many of us are on the same page. You have to win to go on.

In general baseball strategy, the coach of your sons team (no dis if it was you) screwed up by looking ahead to the championship game thus getting side-swiped in the semis. Lesson learned.

However, on another note.....IMHO 7U teams should be more excited by the post game snack than playoff strategy. I'll bet the kids all learned a valuable lesson about sportsmanship and respecting the opponent from the losing teams Dad's fuming about the losing the title. IMO something to think about

rodk - welcome to the hsbbweb!

I don't see any ethical problems here.

Here is the best advice I can offer and it is coming from a guy who used to take things way too seriously. Never let a youth league game get your dander up like this. Life is way too short.

Nothing wrong with this topic but perhaps start these in our pre-high school forum. Thanks and again welcome.

When I was coaching this age group what got me excited the most was seeing things happen in the games that I had worked so hard to get these kids to do. Seeing a kid trust his backhand in a game situation. Seeing a kid battle at the plate after he got down 0-2. Seeing a kid back up a play instead of watching the play. Seeing a kid lay out on a ground ball and stopping it from going into the outfield and not allowing the run to score. Finally getting it or starting to get it.

Seeing kids use the fundementals taught to them in practice in game situations and seeing them try to use the fundementals taught to them in practice in game situations. This is what is truly important at these age's. I never worried about winning or losing. I knew that what was really important was that these kids were learning. I also knew that if they continued to learn these things that it would ultimately equate into them winning down the road. Them winning a spot on the team at the next level they aspired to play at.

The goal? Each player to be better when the season ended than when the season started. The team to be better when the season ended than when it started. And most importantly to help instill a true love and enjoyment of the game. You can win alot of games at these ages and lose at what it really important imo. And you can lose alot at these ages and really win big as well.

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
In a few more years you'll wonder why anyone cares about...

These

A team can't win a championship if they don't win the semifinal. There's nothing worse than looking at your fresh and rested pitchers in the parking lot as you head home.

You've already had your turn to play the game. Now it's your son's game. Cheer him on. Support him. Help him improve. But don't get overly emotionally wrapped up in it. It's only a game. It's HIS game.

Here's my best advice to parents of young players new to the game. Win or lose the kids will usually come away from the field thinking they had a good time. Having a good time is the #1 goal of playing. Any negatives are gone by the time they hit the concession stand. The only time they determine they had a bad time is when disgruntled parents tell them there's a problem (real or imagined).

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
A team can't win a championship if they don't win the semifinal. There's nothing worse than looking at your fresh and rested pitchers in the parking lot as you head home.

You've already had your turn to play the game. Now it's your son's game. Cheer him on. Support him. Help him improve. But don't get overly emotionally wrapped up in it. It's only a game. It's HIS game.

Here's my best advice to parents of young players new to the game. Win or lose the kids will usually come away from the field thinking they had a good time. Having a good time is the #1 goal of playing. Any negatives are gone by the time they hit the concession stand. The only time they determine they had a bad time is when disgruntled parents tell them there's a problem (real or imagined).

Whoa, never dreamed of so many responses so fast.

But many of the replies, like this one, seem to carry a mixed message, ie, have fun, but it's ok to pull out all the stops to win a game.

And there's an inconsistency in that logic too; if you are pulling out all stops to win a game, why aren't you pulling out all stops to win the championship too?

To be sure, it was never about the outcome or the hardware but about the lesson for all sides about what you are willing to do to yourself if the short term goal is all that counts.

Interesting, I don't think there is much of a mixed message about tournament management, you needed to win the semi's in order to play in the finals.

You often hear about your same logic in things like high school playoffs where the number one seed plays the 16th seed and they save their stud pitcher for what ends up for "next season"!

The other advice is about having the right perspective about what should be learned at this level of play.

quote:

And there's an inconsistency in that logic too; if you are pulling out all stops to win a game, why aren't you pulling out all stops to win the championship too?

Because you can't win the championship game if your'e not in it.
Many times in championship games everyone's out of pitching.

BTW I've done the same thing your coach did...just once.

7U pitching---they must be LONG games

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
7U pitching---they must be LONG games

Come on TR, they had their aces on the bump...

BOF,
Come on, I've been trying to stay anonymous. I do appreciate your using the picture from my younger days when I still had my own lower teeth.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
7U pitching---they must be LONG games

Actually, not too bad, <2 hours for 6 innings, same rate if not faster than the Yankees.

A lot of kids threw over the plate at 7u, even better now he's 8u, plus umps call up to their eyes and many kids are over anxious and swing at pitches higher than that.

The worst was my kid pitching to a 40 inch tall girl who wouldn't take the bat off her shoulder, walk or K only.

More recently, he gets thru innings in an average of 15-16 pitches, and a lot of the better guys do too, and it would be less if opponents occasionally made contact. There's a lefty in his league who had 3Ks on 9 pitches, though my kid once had a 10 pitch at bat against him and ruined his pitch count. But that's another thread.

quote:

Originally posted by rodk:

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
7U pitching---they must be LONG games

Actually, not too bad, <2 hours for 6 innings, same rate if not faster than the Yankees.

A lot of kids threw over the plate at 7u, even better now he's 8u, plus umps call up to their eyes and many kids are over anxious and swing at pitches higher than that.

The worst was my kid pitching to a 40 inch tall girl who wouldn't take the bat off her shoulder, walk or K only.

More recently, he gets thru innings in an average of 15-16 pitches, and a lot of the better guys do too, and it would be less if opponents occasionally made contact. There's a lefty in his league who had 3Ks on 9 pitches, though my kid once had a 10 pitch at bat against him and ruined his pitch count. But that's another thread.

Sounds like another long time, future HSBBW poster on here to me!

Welcome to HSBBW Rod!

YGD

From what distance does a 7-year-old pitch? Jeez... in the rec league my son played in, kid pitch didn't start till the 4th grade...

40 feet, off a mound or whatever passed for a mound ....

quote:

Originally posted by rodk:

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
7U pitching---they must be LONG games

Actually, not too bad, <2 hours for 6 innings, same rate if not faster than the Yankees.

A lot of kids threw over the plate at 7u, even better now he's 8u, plus umps call up to their eyes and many kids are over anxious and swing at pitches higher than that.

The worst was my kid pitching to a 40 inch tall girl who wouldn't take the bat off her shoulder, walk or K only.

More recently, he gets thru innings in an average of 15-16 pitches, and a lot of the better guys do too, and it would be less if opponents occasionally made contact. There's a lefty in his league who had 3Ks on 9 pitches, though my kid once had a 10 pitch at bat against him and ruined his pitch count. But that's another thread.

I dunno, I find this response and the entire topic pretty amusing (sorry but I do).

I must be out of touch, when did 7's start pitching?
Don't get the comparison between 7 year olds and the Yankees.

To get to the championship, you have to win the semi. Plain and simple.

quote:

Originally posted by rodk:

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
A team can't win a championship if they don't win the semifinal. There's nothing worse than looking at your fresh and rested pitchers in the parking lot as you head home.

You've already had your turn to play the game. Now it's your son's game. Cheer him on. Support him. Help him improve. But don't get overly emotionally wrapped up in it. It's only a game. It's HIS game.

Here's my best advice to parents of young players new to the game. Win or lose the kids will usually come away from the field thinking they had a good time. Having a good time is the #1 goal of playing. Any negatives are gone by the time they hit the concession stand. The only time they determine they had a bad time is when disgruntled parents tell them there's a problem (real or imagined).

Whoa, never dreamed of so many responses so fast.

But many of the replies, like this one, seem to carry a mixed message, ie, have fun, but it's ok to pull out all the stops to win a game.

And there's an inconsistency in that logic too; if you are pulling out all stops to win a game, why aren't you pulling out all stops to win the championship too?

To be sure, it was never about the outcome or the hardware but about the lesson for all sides about what you are willing to do to yourself if the short term goal is all that counts.

There's nothing mixed about it. There's a scoreboard and a tournament bracket. In the moment play to win. It takes winning the semi to play in the final. But in the big picture maintain perspective.

Coach May (who gives as good advice as anyone on this board) suggested only be concerned with what your team does. It's great advice to live a long, sane, happy, parent of a baseball player life.

7 years old seem quite young to start offering kid pitch.
Are they pitching from 42 or 44 feet? I hope 2 1/4" diam bats.

rodk,

Welcome to the site! I hope you will stick around for a long time and let use follow you and your son. Many of the members posting in this thread have sons who are now pitching at the professional level, and others have sons at the HS and college level.

I always hope that newer members take comments like this in the positive way they are intended:

"We almost all care a bit too much about whatever level our kid(s) happen to be playing at and sometimes forget how much it meant to us back then."

To be honest, I didn't like hearing things like that when my son was playing 10-yr-old kid pitch against 12-yr-olds, or even when he was playing 8-yr-old travel hockey. At the time, I suspected that the "more experienced" parent making that comment didn't understand the level at which my son cared about his sports - or even that the parent was talking down to me. Each year after that, I understood more clearly that those parents giving advice HAD stood exactly where I stood (or sat - in the bleachers).

It's all good, and it is too soon over. (My baseball son is now 24 years old, no longer playing but still involved with baseball.) Enjoy it, be supportive of your son, cheer for his teammates AND the other team (at that age - maybe not so much in college for the other team).

I've rambled on, but mostly just wanted to highlight CADad's post (I'll steal another quote):

"Enjoy it while you can. In a couple years you'll wonder how the parents of 7yo could care about what happens at that level. In a few more years you'll wonder how parents of 12yo could care..." etc.

Enjoy the ride, and keep sharing it with us, okay?

Julie

quote:

Originally posted by rz1:



However, on another note.....IMHO 7U teams should be more excited by the post game snack than playoff strategy.

You hit the nail on the head!

Welcome to the site. There are some on here who think you have to be 15 before you should start pitching. They have never been around kids who can actually throw and catch at young ages. I have battled til I am tired of fighting them. Each league has their own rules and each parent chooses what is best for them and their kid. Don't even think about bringing up tournament ball for young kids.
To answer your original question. The team that beat you finished 2nd you finished tied for third. Whatever it takes to play tomorrow. If you lose there is no tomorrow.

Ready, set, fire away.

quote:

Originally posted by journey2:
7 years old seem quite young to start offering kid pitch.
Are they pitching from 42 or 44 feet? I hope 2 1/4" diam bats.

Pitching: Usually around 40 feet, but usually not measured, if the rubber is somewhere on what passes for the mound, that was close enough.

Bats? Don't know. Most were league supplied.

Maybe our league is unique, but actually the pitching was pretty good with a somewhat enlarged strike zone; my kid usually didn't walk more than one or two guys an inning and lots of time K'd the side without much umpiring help. Other kids were somewhat wilder, but the usual game didn't have more than 12-15 runs, and not too many coming in on walks. It used a somewhat unique rule of 6 balls to a hitter after the fourth walk in an inning, usually you'd have a new guy by then anyway.

As far as mixed message on playoff strategies, I'd think the kids on the winning team in the semi would be at least as disappointed as ours were, since they had no chance of winning the final.

Some posters have been saying there is no tension between pulling out all the stops to win the game at that age and having fun; the idea that the opponent was going all out just to defeat my kid's team and deliberately foresaking the overall championship (or praying for a rainout) still seems like it is too much for Little League, where the games should be played in the big picture.

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Connell:
There are some on here who think you have to be 15 before you should start pitching. They have never been around kids who can actually throw and catch at young ages.

15..... I've never heard that one. Jeff don't give newbies the impression the sight is full of bs nay-sayers. There may be some that have opinions on certain topics that do not match your own......but, everyone's entitled to an opinion, and then we scrutinize . In this case. it seems many feel that 7 year olds should learn to ride a 2-wheeler before being put in a playoff pitching rotation.

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Connell:
There are some on here who think you have to be 15 before you should start pitching. They have never been around kids who can actually throw and catch at young ages.

Gross exaggeration? No? Name one.

I've always felt that you need to Win to get in, so you don't want to leave your horses in the barn! With that said,I'm surprised that a 7u league has kid pitch? It used to start around 8u, so I guess things have changed? I hope coaches/parents had a pitch count for the kids that was implemented in the league?

It's so true what others have stated, in a few years you won't care about 7u baseball...or 10u, or 12u...In fact, ten years from now, you'll probably be on this site like I am, just hoping for the best for your 17 year old, and the opportunity for him to play at the next level, where ever that may be?

Good Luck...and enjoy the ride!

What kid doesn't know how to ride bike by 7. Gross exaggeration. Mine rode at 4 1/2. Pitching by 6. I'm just saying the same to him.
Rod, don't get frustrated with guys who bash you when you say your kid is pitching at 7. I am one of those who has been bashed because I chose to let my kid pitch at age 6. Realistically one the other day said you should be 11 or 12 before it gets serious and keeping score and such things. There is a big difference on this site about travel versus rec ball. There are those of us who are strongly pro travel and those who are strongly pro rec. That is where the big disagreement comes in.

Again, I love this site and it has been very helpful but there are those who just attack someone who is on the other side of the trave/rec argument.

i think you'll find we are all pro baseball. some of us have seen first hand what overuse on the mound can do to a player. that may be why the reply's are what they are.

my thoughts are to play ball as much as your son wants to. if it's fun for him great. but even 7 yr olds know the score.

quote:

Originally posted by rodk:
As far as mixed message on playoff strategies, I'd think the kids on the winning team in the semi would be at least as disappointed as ours were, since they had no chance of winning the final and the best pitchers were barred from playing in the final.

I don't believe I have ever seen kids disappointed after winning a game...

I could give you several examples from my experience of seeing teams win that weren't expected to win...but that's not the point...you have to make it to that game in order to have a chance to win it...the other team did what they had to do to get to the championship and that gave them a chance at winning it...your son's team is the team that had no chance since they weren't actually playing in the game...

I have and will always enjoy watching both of my boys play whatever sports they choose to play, but when both were playing baseball, there was enough difference between their age levels that I quickly learned what MN-Mom and others have said so much better than I could...Hopefully we'll see how well I learned the lesson this fall as I watch my boys play Freshman and Varsity football...

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Connell:
What kid doesn't know how to ride bike by 7. Gross exaggeration. Mine rode at 4 1/2. Pitching by 6. I'm just saying the same to him.
Rod, don't get frustrated with guys who bash you when you say your kid is pitching at 7. I am one of those who has been bashed because I chose to let my kid pitch at age 6. Realistically one the other day said you should be 11 or 12 before it gets serious and keeping score and such things. There is a big difference on this site about travel versus rec ball. There are those of us who are strongly pro travel and those who are strongly pro rec. That is where the big disagreement comes in.

Again, I love this site and it has been very helpful but there are those who just attack someone who is on the other side of the trave/rec argument.

I haven't seen anyone attacked, but opinions given, everyone has different opinions.
Jeff, FWIW, my son was still playing t-ball at 7 (he had one of those birthdays where he was too young for one level and too old for another so we kept him there). At 8, there was the decsision to either go to coach pitch or another league where they pitched, which we did.
Looking back is always easier than looking ahead, and yes I am one of those that would, if had to do it over, not let son pitch until he was older. Although always healthy with very minor issues, it is my opinion that is what we should have done, because some issues have set him back as a professional. No one has to listen or take advice from anyone.
I know that things are quite different than when mine was young, but it is also my opinion that it should be about having fun, learining new skills, learning to take direction from others, being with your friends and worrying more about your after game snack than advancing to finals in a championship game, and I do not beleive I am alone in that thought. But that is ok, because it is ok to disagree.
I also believe despite differences of opinion and what we do with our kids, they all end up in the same place in the end, so does it really, really matter which path one chooses? No.

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Connell:
There are some on here who think you have to be 15 before you should start pitching. They have never been around kids who can actually throw and catch at young ages. I have battled til I am tired of fighting them. Each league has their own rules and each parent chooses what is best for them and their kid. Don't even think about bringing up tournament ball for young kids...

Jeff, Not insinuating anything with my question to rodk. Just thought it odd that a league in NY had kid pitch for 7U's. Growing up, spent several formiable years up North (OH & NH- military brat). LL & Pop Warner was what people put their kids in. Coach pitch was the norm at 7, if they still weren't playing T-ball. Flash forward 2+ dozen years & a thousand miles southwest. Have a ton of friends & relatives up North. Though competitive relatively young "travel" type teams exist ( to a small extent), its quite a bit different than what I see locally with what borders on insanity. 64-0 travel T-ball teams, a WS for every letter of the alphabet, 6 game guarantee local tourns ending at 1:00 AM Monday morning in early March! I could go on & on...

Having coached my own boys from 5 & up in a competitive enviroment (league is mainly played for practice, solid tourn ball team ) understand exactly where you are coming from. Back years ago on my youngest's 7U-MP team the most advanced & I'd hazard to say most "clutch" players were the youngest (still 5, a few months shy of 6) & the two oldest. In the entire bunch, only one or two had avg to weak arms, & we worked around that as those two boys could HIT & field. While this 7U team was solid, base runners stealing & our catcher throwing out runners @ 2nd, & pitchers proficiently dealing fastballs & change-ups was still a year out (summer leading into 9's).

rodk, welcome to HSBW, enjoy the ride, the boys grow up mighty quick.

Interesting how experiences and perspectives, when expressed, can be interpreted as "attack" rather than "opinion."

My perspective comes from the experience of a son who was able to play until age 27. His career ended in an operating room in Birmingham, Alabama. The perspective he provided came from sitting in the waiting room completely amazed at the number of HS age kids waiting to have shoulder/elbow and arm surgery and who were facing, at best a very rigorous and lengthy rehab, and at worst the potential end of playing the game he loved so much.
Perspective comes from seeing the 15 year old son of a friend last week and asking how his Summer and baseball was going. Perspective forming the opinions I offer on this board on questions like those in this thread came from his answer:"having shoulder surgery next week."
Perspective comes from the concept that 7 year olds could care less about pitching or what the consequences might be later on, if any, or whether the opposing coaches used their best or saved their best. Perspective comes from knowing that little league is full of politics and "winning" that is parent/adult generated. Perspective comes from realizing I coached and did some of that type of "winning" thinking when ours was that age
At 7, our son played T ball, at 8-9, they used and still do use pitching machines.
One thing about pitching machines, no one questioned if you used your best or saved your best while the other coaches engaged in questionable tactics.
Seemed like the kids had fun, too.
When all this is said and done, and the player and parents/coaches look back, I wonder if they look at the same things. There is something that makes me think the parents/coaches will more closely align with winning and losing, the players win the fun and competition, or, sadly, the lack of it. Perspective comes from looking back to when I coached from ages 9-12 and remembering W's and L's, but not remembering whether and the extent to which the players had fun and enjoyed the competition.
Perspective comes from looking back and remembering that when I coached from ages 13-15, there were more L's than W's, our players had a blast, the only ones who competed in college in that league came from that team, and my vivid understanding, maybe for the first time, that I was coaching for them, they were not playing "for me."

quote:

I think this managing, legal but not exactly cricket either, effort to win at the cost of having no possibility in the final, was was over-the-top, and not really a good example for the kids.


Appreciate any thoughts about winning by pulling out all of the stops.

I disagree that it doesn't show a good example for the kids. Every team plays under the same set of rules. The winning coach did nothing wrong. Since the other team moved on to the finals by using their three top pitchers, the coach did the right thing He put his team in he best position to get the team to the finals. That's kinda the idea when you play a tournament.

I don't get all this guilt trip win nonsense. Playing baseball, you have winners and losers. I doubt very much it'll ruin a 7 yr old's life if he loses a tournament game. Kids know the score. It's the over-sensitive parents that mix these kids up by filling their heads with nonsense about fair play. Meanwhile, a coach did what he did within the rules to get his team in a position to play in the finals. If the losing coach lost because he didn't put his team in the best possible situation to win, then that's his fault.

Welcome rodk!

Nice to see that the HSBBW keeps growing with parents of young players. The site started out focusing on HS players but has expanded to keep following them through college and now into the pros. With the added pre-HS section parents of younger players can learn and share at an even earlier age. That seems such a long time ago!

Our son started T-ball at 6yrs old and started pitching at 8. He developed early and was a big kid for his age. Dad was usually one of his coaches up until HS and we thought then we were being very diligent with pitch counts, rest etc. But we still look back and have "What were we thinking!" moments and wish we had been even more cautious & started at a later age. Hind sight is always great and I guess that's why many of us stick around the site to hopefully share our experiences with the next group of baseball parents.

Remember to not keep looking down the road but stop and enjoy the NOW moments! They are priceless.