I watched one batter today.
Curveball
Curveball
Curveball
Curveball
I'm done.
Original Post
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Where have you been for the last 100 years?
I would guess he's been watching the LLWS Sultan, as he said in the first place.
To respond without any sarcasm biggerpapi, curveballs are an interesting discussion with respect to younger players. Studies have shown that throwing a curveball the right way will not hurt your arm. However, fatigue causes arm angles and arm slots to change, with further enhance injury possibilities. Young players generally have trouble repeating mechanics once that fatigue is reached, and thus potentially the reason for injuries.
It is pretty incredible to me how many curveballs are thrown in the games as well though. It'd be interesting to get some sort of biomechanical analysis on these young pitchers and to see the effects on the arm on top of all of these studies being conducted.
To respond without any sarcasm biggerpapi, curveballs are an interesting discussion with respect to younger players. Studies have shown that throwing a curveball the right way will not hurt your arm. However, fatigue causes arm angles and arm slots to change, with further enhance injury possibilities. Young players generally have trouble repeating mechanics once that fatigue is reached, and thus potentially the reason for injuries.
It is pretty incredible to me how many curveballs are thrown in the games as well though. It'd be interesting to get some sort of biomechanical analysis on these young pitchers and to see the effects on the arm on top of all of these studies being conducted.
How many 11-13 year olds really have consistant repeatable mechanics?
I thought they put restrictions on throwing them, or perhaps they are throwing a little league curve?
http://pitchingprofessor.com/a...e_breaking_ball.html
I thought they put restrictions on throwing them, or perhaps they are throwing a little league curve?
http://pitchingprofessor.com/a...e_breaking_ball.html
LLWS = waste of time
A K-curve (aka Knucklecurve) was something my son threw around 11-12yrs old without any kind of pressures on his elbow. And it's quite effective. Why don't they teach this instead at an early age?
I started practicing curveballs when I was 11 years old. I threw it once in a game that season, we were curious how batters would react since no one else in our league threw one.
It became a part of my repertoire when I was 12, when I would use maybe 10 times in a game, to the 1-3 hitters in the lineup that could get on my fastball (I was an early bloomer
)
I never threw a sequence as described in original post until after high school, but that is partly due to the fact that I started throwing a changeup and I found that to be a much more effective pitch.
It became a part of my repertoire when I was 12, when I would use maybe 10 times in a game, to the 1-3 hitters in the lineup that could get on my fastball (I was an early bloomer
)I never threw a sequence as described in original post until after high school, but that is partly due to the fact that I started throwing a changeup and I found that to be a much more effective pitch.
I personally see nothing wrong with kids throwing curveballs. My son was throwing them by the time he was 11 years old and throwing them rather frequently. Our main concern should be with "overuse". All of the new research now being done is finding that LL elbow is due primarily from "overuse". Throwing "curveballs" is not overuse just as throwing fastballs isn't overuse. Throwing too much on fatigued or even sore arms is "overuse" and then it flat out doesn't matter what a kid is throwing at that point.
But, if one wants to get real picky about it, studies by ASMI have actually shown that the fastball has the greatest stress loads on the arm. But....we don't hear about people complaining if a kid throws 10 fastballs in a row......
But, if one wants to get real picky about it, studies by ASMI have actually shown that the fastball has the greatest stress loads on the arm. But....we don't hear about people complaining if a kid throws 10 fastballs in a row......
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
I personally see nothing wrong with kids throwing curveballs. My son was throwing them by the time he was 11 years old and throwing them rather frequently. Our main concern should be with "overuse". All of the new research now being done is finding that LL elbow is due primarily from "overuse". Throwing "curveballs" is not overuse just as throwing fastballs isn't overuse. Throwing too much on fatigued or even sore arms is "overuse" and then it flat out doesn't matter what a kid is throwing at that point.
But, if one wants to get real picky about it, studies by ASMI have actually shown that the fastball has the greatest stress loads on the arm. But....we don't hear about people complaining if a kid throws 10 fastballs in a row......
If he was throwing them frequently, at 11 that signals overuse. The whole argument with the FB is because there are many that do not throw the FB correctly just as they do not throw CB correctly and a lot involves the argument of pronation vs supination, early or late. It also involves a lot of other stuff, which includes arm slot, RHP,LHP, wrist angles and where the pitcher is in his development (open or closed plates). There is a huge argument that supination is harmful for young pitchers and those pitches include breaking balls.
I would love to see a study on more and more CB specialists (those that don't throw the heat and rely on frequent use of CB), in HS,college and pro ball. I will bet they have just if not as many injury issues as heat throwers. You have a very little experience at this time. You remind me of the dad of the LHP who constantly was telling us what a stellar pitcher his LHP was, and he lived off of the CB to get players out, in college he was basically done, though the parent blamed it on the pitching coach, finally admitting as a seior he had shoulder issues. Someday if your son comes to you with an injury, you won't know whether it will be because of all those curveballs he threw or if he went home after pitching and threw a ball against the wall for hours after pitching. And you will not admit it, as most won't. I challenge any parent whose son has had to have shoulder or TJS to tell us what they threw when younger, most won't.
Do you hold up your information based on personal info? I mean how many kids do you see who are injured that throw very high velo in your area vs. other pitches? If you can, please present data. You claim that studies and data prove results yet in another topic when presented data, you don't recognize it. You are neither here nor there.
There's a proper way to throw a curveball, and an improper way to throw a curveball. Most pitchers throw the curve improperly. Studies indicate that the curveball is no more stressful on the arm than a fastball.
However, there is an overuse factor. Just like it takes hundreds of fastballs to throw it consistently, it takes hundreds of curveballs to throw it consistently. These hundreds of curveballs help lead to degradation of the UCL, which is a huge part in Tommy John.
On the other hand, I see nothing wrong with throwing a curveball as long as it's no more than 1-5 times a game. There's an age at which this becomes less of a worry, but unless the pitcher is biologically older than 16, an overuse issue can prevent the arm from continuing its growth.
As for the LLWS, I hate watching it. Especially when you have children bigger than I am. Remember Luke Ramirez: 6'2", 200 lbs? Is is really fair to a kid 4' 11", 90 lbs to get pitched to by him?
Finally, I can't stand the hitters. Most of them have TERRIBLE mechanics. The aluminum -8 to -12 covers it up so they can look like the big hero on ESPN. These kids struggle with the -3 bats. I want to see it played with wood. Louisville Slugger would become an even wealthier company overnight. I would like to see kids have wood bats. No more "dead hands, no stride, squash the bug, swing down"
hitting. It would help everybody so much and indicate that the US is very far behind in terms of hitters.
However, there is an overuse factor. Just like it takes hundreds of fastballs to throw it consistently, it takes hundreds of curveballs to throw it consistently. These hundreds of curveballs help lead to degradation of the UCL, which is a huge part in Tommy John.
On the other hand, I see nothing wrong with throwing a curveball as long as it's no more than 1-5 times a game. There's an age at which this becomes less of a worry, but unless the pitcher is biologically older than 16, an overuse issue can prevent the arm from continuing its growth.
As for the LLWS, I hate watching it. Especially when you have children bigger than I am. Remember Luke Ramirez: 6'2", 200 lbs? Is is really fair to a kid 4' 11", 90 lbs to get pitched to by him?
Finally, I can't stand the hitters. Most of them have TERRIBLE mechanics. The aluminum -8 to -12 covers it up so they can look like the big hero on ESPN. These kids struggle with the -3 bats. I want to see it played with wood. Louisville Slugger would become an even wealthier company overnight. I would like to see kids have wood bats. No more "dead hands, no stride, squash the bug, swing down"
hitting. It would help everybody so much and indicate that the US is very far behind in terms of hitters.
quote:Originally posted by Low Finish:
There's a proper way to throw a curveball, and an improper way to throw a curveball. Most pitchers throw the curve improperly. Studies indicate that the curveball is no more stressful on the arm than a fastball.
However, there is an overuse factor. Just like it takes hundreds of fastballs to throw it consistently, it takes hundreds of curveballs to throw it consistently. These hundreds of curveballs help lead to degradation of the UCL, which is a huge part in Tommy John.
On the other hand, I see nothing wrong with throwing a curveball as long as it's no more than 1-5 times a game. There's an age at which this becomes less of a worry, but unless the pitcher is biologically older than 16, an overuse issue can prevent the arm from continuing its growth.
As for the LLWS, I hate watching it. Especially when you have children bigger than I am. Remember Luke Ramirez: 6'2", 200 lbs? Is is really fair to a kid 4' 11", 90 lbs to get pitched to by him?
Finally, I can't stand the hitters. Most of them have TERRIBLE mechanics. The aluminum -8 to -12 covers it up so they can look like the big hero on ESPN. These kids struggle with the -3 bats. I want to see it played with wood. Louisville Slugger would become an even wealthier company overnight. I would like to see kids have wood bats. No more "dead hands, no stride, squash the bug, swing down"
hitting. It would help everybody so much and indicate that the US is very far behind in terms of hitters.
Calling something a curve ball is not terribly helpful if it is used to refer to all "balls that curve". My son threw a "curve ball" from a very young age to go with his relatively high velo fast ball. He caused the movement with nothing more than grip change and finger pressure - none of the twisting motion associated by most with a curve ball. Many well intentioned parents (most of whom were strangers to us) approached us at tournaments to warn us about the use of "curve balls" at his age. I am a firm believer that traditional curve ball have no place in the game for young pitchers - and if they are used (mine did not) - a few a game (5 or 6?) should be the max. A good pitching coach can teach a pitch that moves quite nicely to a young pitcher without endangering the arm. One pitching coach we worked with holds the opinioin that NO ONE - including pro's - should throw a true curve ball if they want to protect their arm. Not saying I agree - but an interesting opinion.
I, too, cringe when I see young pitchers throwing a traditional curve - but I also cringe when I watch young pitchers throw too many pitches of any kind - and get to little rest.
If all the parents that are soo excited about junior's success would consult experts on the appropriate care of a young pitcher's arm and then apply the information they receive - we would have fewer injuries. Remembering that the goal is NOT to win the LLWS - but to enjoy and have success at much higher levels - should empower parents to set limits. Like anywhere else - looking for immediate gratification in baseball can be costly in the long run.
I, too, cringe when I see young pitchers throwing a traditional curve - but I also cringe when I watch young pitchers throw too many pitches of any kind - and get to little rest.
If all the parents that are soo excited about junior's success would consult experts on the appropriate care of a young pitcher's arm and then apply the information they receive - we would have fewer injuries. Remembering that the goal is NOT to win the LLWS - but to enjoy and have success at much higher levels - should empower parents to set limits. Like anywhere else - looking for immediate gratification in baseball can be costly in the long run.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
I personally see nothing wrong with kids throwing curveballs. My son was throwing them by the time he was 11 years old and throwing them rather frequently. Our main concern should be with "overuse". All of the new research now being done is finding that LL elbow is due primarily from "overuse". Throwing "curveballs" is not overuse just as throwing fastballs isn't overuse. Throwing too much on fatigued or even sore arms is "overuse" and then it flat out doesn't matter what a kid is throwing at that point.
But, if one wants to get real picky about it, studies by ASMI have actually shown that the fastball has the greatest stress loads on the arm. But....we don't hear about people complaining if a kid throws 10 fastballs in a row......
If he was throwing them frequently, at 11 that signals overuse. The whole argument with the FB is because there are many that do not throw the FB correctly just as they do not throw CB correctly and a lot involves the argument of pronation vs supination, early or late. It also involves a lot of other stuff, which includes arm slot, RHP,LHP, wrist angles and where the pitcher is in his development (open or closed plates). There is a huge argument that supination is harmful for young pitchers and those pitches include breaking balls.
I would love to see a study on more and more CB specialists (those that don't throw the heat and rely on frequent use of CB), in HS,college and pro ball. I will bet they have just if not as many injury issues as heat throwers. You have a very little experience at this time. You remind me of the dad of the LHP who constantly was telling us what a stellar pitcher his LHP was, and he lived off of the CB to get players out, in college he was basically done, though the parent blamed it on the pitching coach, finally admitting as a seior he had shoulder issues. Someday if your son comes to you with an injury, you won't know whether it will be because of all those curveballs he threw or if he went home after pitching and threw a ball against the wall for hours after pitching. And you will not admit it, as most won't. I challenge any parent whose son has had to have shoulder or TJS to tell us what they threw when younger, most won't.
Do you hold up your information based on personal info? I mean how many kids do you see who are injured that throw very high velo in your area vs. other pitches? If you can, please present data. You claim that studies and data prove results yet in another topic when presented data, you don't recognize it. You are neither here nor there.
JH is correct that ASMI's later studies have suggested that a properly thrown curveball imposes no additional stress. HOWEVER, Dr. Andrews continues to recommend that kids not throw curveballs until they start shaving.
Here are some numbers that Andrews quotes in his speaches. I believe that these are based on his patients that he has treated over the years rather than some empirical study. Some would say they represent opinions rather than facts, but I'll take Andrews word for it.
According to Andrews:
--Kids that throw over 80 mph are twice as likely (200%) to develop arm problems.
--Kids that frequently throw 80 pitches per game are 3.8 (380%) times more likely to develop arm problems.
--Kids that throw competitively for more than 8 mos. per year are 5 times (500%) more likely to develop arm problems.
--Kids that frequently throw while fatigued are 36 times (3600%) more likely to develop arm problems.
I have seen these same numbers several times. Look for an article by David List on the Diamond Prospects site. There also used to be in a video that was on either the LL or ASMI sites.
While Andrews continues to recommend restraint with curve balls, his, and ASMI's, major focus is true overuse, i.e. too many piches and too little rest.
Injuries are going to happen, no matter how careful you are. Follow the ASMI recommendations to a T and you can help minimize them, but they are still going to happen, especially when you throw 90 mph.
quote:...Studies indicate that the curveball is no more stressful on the arm than a fastball...
If and when you can finally get a 12 year old to understand, patiently develop, and then get control of the complex curveball motion, then this is probably correct. The real issue is that the range of 12 y/o's are in such different places developmentally (physically, intellectually, emotionally) that you can't ensure it can be accomplished across enough of them. Some kids don't have the strength to stay on top of the ball no matter how much they know they're supposed to. Then, in a game they start noticing they can still get it to move a little and yet control it better with a slight twisting motion and so they start "cheating". So a lot of kids end up getting hurt, no matter how brilliant and preachy their pitching coaches are about mechanics.
I think everybody gets the overuse argument - its kindof a no-brainer. But its difficult to measure overuse (until you get there) and its a mistake to think that watching overuse will be all you have to do to prevent injuries.
This is the link to an excellent presentation that Andrews and Fleisig made to Little League in 2007. It is audio and Power Point slides. Be sure and listen to/watch Andrews presentation. It focuses mainly on overuse, but touches a lot of other topics. Fleisig talks about some to the numbers I posted above, as well as mechanics.
I sure that people will hear what they want to here in these presentations. My understanding is that the studies dealing with curveballs are inconclusive. But why gamble with a kids future?
http://www.littleleague.org/le...itchpresentation.htm
I sure that people will hear what they want to here in these presentations. My understanding is that the studies dealing with curveballs are inconclusive. But why gamble with a kids future?
http://www.littleleague.org/le...itchpresentation.htm
ASMI, a well meaning group, does have a few logic problems with this pitch.
They show a scary slide headlining that 64% of pitchers with UCL problems threw curveballs.
What they don't tell you is that 100% of them threw fastballs. (that must be really scary)
Then they say that radar guns are a big factor in injuries and "many parents even have radar guns".
Parents with guns like me are monitoring fatigue to prevent injuries. Personally, I don't see why you would want to train a pitcher without a measuring device.
They show a scary slide headlining that 64% of pitchers with UCL problems threw curveballs.
What they don't tell you is that 100% of them threw fastballs. (that must be really scary)
Then they say that radar guns are a big factor in injuries and "many parents even have radar guns".
Parents with guns like me are monitoring fatigue to prevent injuries. Personally, I don't see why you would want to train a pitcher without a measuring device.
quote:Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
ASMI, a well meaning group, does have a few logic problems with this pitch.
They show a scary slide headlining that 64% of pitchers with UCL problems threw curveballs.
What they don't tell you is that 100% of them threw fastballs. (that must be really scary)
Then they say that radar guns are a big factor in injuries and "many parents even have radar guns".
Parents with guns like me are monitoring fatigue to prevent injuries. Personally, I don't see why you would want to train a pitcher without a measuring device.
Radar guns are a factor. I have no objection to radar gunning a kid, if you keep it to yourself. However, I do have an objection to making it obvious that you're radar gunning a kid and telling the entire team that you're gunning their pitches. Furthermore, sharing that information publicly isn't a good idea.
Kids try to out do the kid before them, leading to unnecessary wear and tear. If this happens enough, the kid hurts his arm.
So in summary, you can clock the kid, but share the results only with him or keep them to yourself. Kids trying to out do each other leads to injuries.
He doesn't go into in the audio above, but I think what Andrews is talking about is kids "throwing to the gun." I other words, seeing the gun and trying to overthrow. I think there was another article in which he mentioned seeing several patients who had injured themselves at showcases trying to max out for the radar gun.
I have no doubt that you use your gun to monitor fatigue. But fess up, you did not buy it for that purpose. You bought it to monitor progress in velocity. (Not necessarily a bad thing IMHO).
I have no doubt that you use your gun to monitor fatigue. But fess up, you did not buy it for that purpose. You bought it to monitor progress in velocity. (Not necessarily a bad thing IMHO).
quote:Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
ASMI, a well meaning group, does have a few logic problems with this pitch.
They show a scary slide headlining that 64% of pitchers with UCL problems threw curveballs.
What they don't tell you is that 100% of them threw fastballs. (that must be really scary)
Then they say that radar guns are a big factor in injuries and "many parents even have radar guns".
Parents with guns like me are monitoring fatigue to prevent injuries. Personally, I don't see why you would want to train a pitcher without a measuring device.
quote:What they don't tell you is that 100% of them threw fastballs. (that must be really scary)
I love this!
And %100 wore a glove and threw from a mound. Pitching is a strenuous activity. Throwing over 90mph is a statistical indicator of increased chance of injury too - tough to tell a kid not to do that if they are capable.
Seriously - common sense goes a long way. Remember these are KIDS we are talking about (even the ones in high school that shave). There is time to learn a curve ball if needed. Encourage your KIDS / players to be very honest with you about how they feel. They need to understand when to tough it out for the good of the team and when to back off due to fatigue or pain/discomfort. Curve balls are not the only way to win a game.
quote:Originally posted by Low Finish:
So in summary, you can clock the kid, but share the results only with him or keep them to yourself. Kids trying to out do each other leads to injuries.
Can you tell me how many kids that you have personally witnessed get injured while "throwing for the gun"? Accordingly, there must be hundreds that get hurt at PG events every year.
I have never seen a pitcher get hurt like this, and I have been doing this a long time.
When you gun a team, the kids get excited for the first pitch or two, then they don't even know you are there for the rest of the game/season.
We should ban grandma from watching little Johnny also. He might try to throw too hard.
This is a silly myth that doesn't pass the slightest bit of scrutiny, and it's a shame that ASMI pushes it.
I can't stand watching the LLWS anymore. One of the announcers said "He's very likely to play at the next level". The next level is high school! (This was the Georgia-West Virginia game).
One of the most ridiculous things I've heard in a while...
One of the most ridiculous things I've heard in a while...
quote:Originally posted by SultanofSwat:quote:Originally posted by Low Finish:
So in summary, you can clock the kid, but share the results only with him or keep them to yourself. Kids trying to out do each other leads to injuries.
Can you tell me how many kids that you have personally witnessed get injured while "throwing for the gun"? Accordingly, there must be hundreds that get hurt at PG events every year.
I have never seen a pitcher get hurt like this, and I have been doing this a long time.
When you gun a team, the kids get excited for the first pitch or two, then they don't even know you are there for the rest of the game/season.
We should ban grandma from watching little Johnny also. He might try to throw too hard.
This is a silly myth that doesn't pass the slightest bit of scrutiny, and it's a shame that ASMI pushes it.
Never said that I had witnessed any such thing. I said that as I recalled Andrews had previously said that HE had treated patients injured at showcases.
If you keep track of what Andrews/ASMI preaches you should know that his/their feelings about radar guns are a VERY minor part of their platform. The main thing they focus on is overuse, pitch counts, inadequate rest during the season, year round play, etc.
Keep your gun. I agree with you that they can be valuable tools. But don't try to sell the BS that you got it to monitor fatigue. Out of curiousity, how much of a drop in velocity is a sign of fatigue? 1 mph? 2 mph? 5 mph? When does the gun tell you it is time to take a kid out.
Interesting thread because there are really two subjects worth considering here. The curveball thing and the LLWS in and of itself.
I'm sure there strong feelings all the way around, but I'm with the folks who are disinterested in the LLWS. To me it all comes down to post-May 1 13 year-olds playing on a 60-foot diamond, with a 46 foot mound, and 220 foot fences. It seems absolutely inauthentic to me.
As for the curveball thing, it seems so utterly prevalent in this age group now. I have no opinion on the health issue because I don't think studies have been (or can be) definitive at all. The problem I have with the curve at 12 years-old is that it's become an utter crutch for kids (or kids' coaches, or their dads, or all of these) who want to get outs without learning how to really pitch.
From what I've seen over the past two years as my son entered and passed through this age-group, kids with semi-reliable curves use them invariably to get 'swing and miss' strikeouts because they can't spot their fastballs with any consistency, and/or change speeds in any useful way. Count goes to 0-2? Here comes Charlie.
To me that's just an unsustainable approach to developing a young pitcher. These kids have to be able to move a fastball around AND change speeds as he grows inorder to remain successful.
I'm sure there strong feelings all the way around, but I'm with the folks who are disinterested in the LLWS. To me it all comes down to post-May 1 13 year-olds playing on a 60-foot diamond, with a 46 foot mound, and 220 foot fences. It seems absolutely inauthentic to me.
As for the curveball thing, it seems so utterly prevalent in this age group now. I have no opinion on the health issue because I don't think studies have been (or can be) definitive at all. The problem I have with the curve at 12 years-old is that it's become an utter crutch for kids (or kids' coaches, or their dads, or all of these) who want to get outs without learning how to really pitch.
From what I've seen over the past two years as my son entered and passed through this age-group, kids with semi-reliable curves use them invariably to get 'swing and miss' strikeouts because they can't spot their fastballs with any consistency, and/or change speeds in any useful way. Count goes to 0-2? Here comes Charlie.
To me that's just an unsustainable approach to developing a young pitcher. These kids have to be able to move a fastball around AND change speeds as he grows inorder to remain successful.
quote:Originally posted by MTH:
Out of curiousity, how much of a drop in velocity is a sign of fatigue? 1 mph? 2 mph? 5 mph? When does the gun tell you it is time to take a kid out.
Around 3 mph (consistently) seemed to be the right number. This would also coincide with walks.
I like watching it. To me, they're kids getting treated like big leaguers for a little while. It's a dream come true. What's so bad about that?
I'm with AntzDad. We've been to the LLWS in Williamsport several times. It is great seeing kids having fun PLAYING the game.
By the way, the MVP at the PG WWBA 17U this year was one of the big pitchers several years ago when his team from Georgia won the LLWS.
Personally, I would like to see them play on the larger field. The 46 foot mound is pretty close for how hard some of the kids have been throwing in the past few years (but the batters can still hit them).
By the way, the MVP at the PG WWBA 17U this year was one of the big pitchers several years ago when his team from Georgia won the LLWS.
Personally, I would like to see them play on the larger field. The 46 foot mound is pretty close for how hard some of the kids have been throwing in the past few years (but the batters can still hit them).
I love watching the LL world series. I would much rather watch a bunch of kids playing a team sport as a team trying to win as a team for their home towns. Than to watch what can playing on this team do for me.
On espn last night they showed a tweet from Strasburg who was complaining about the curveballs and the one kid who "pimped" his homerun. I understand the amount of curveballs gets out of hand, but where do you think the kid learned how to "pimp" his homeruns? Major League Baseball. I love seeing these kids get the chance to feel like MLB players for a while.
C'mon Coach down by one, you got 1st & 2nd nothing, and you don't bunt? nah, let em hit into the DP Are you kidding???
Was thinking the very same thing. Not like it was his big bopper at the plate either. That shocked me to be honest.
quote:Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
Can you tell me how many kids that you have personally witnessed get injured while "throwing for the gun"?
I am not sure but I do believe that they felt there was a strong correlation between injuries and attending numreous tournaments and showcases where they take velocities.
The first time son hit the magic #, there was about 6-7 radar guns on him and a whole lot of important people watching. I am pretty sure he threw as hard as he could to impress someone. That is one of the reasons why we started a bit later with the torunies and showcases that take those stats. I didn't think at 13,14 he needed that and he hit 90 without being "charted" for progress at an early age. Personal preference.
I have no problem with the gun as a teaching tool, HS players should start to begin to chart pitches (you got to do this in college) which would include using the radar gun. But when I see a dad sitting at a 14-15 tournament gunning his pitcher and then telling him during the game his velocity, well that is just plain out of control and could be a recipe for disaster, IMO.
Of course players try to outdo each other, it's their competitve nature to do so. I wouldn't expect any less.
quote:Originally posted by AntzDad:
I like watching it. To me, they're kids getting treated like big leaguers for a little while. It's a dream come true. What's so bad about that?
I like it. My son has two pitching students on the Louisiana team.
I bet he's proud of them. I'll root for Louisiana. How's that?
Cell service can be spotty up there. He might not be able to get a hold of them. Last time I was around Williamsport, I hit scan on my car radio. It came back to the same station.
Cell service can be spotty up there. He might not be able to get a hold of them. Last time I was around Williamsport, I hit scan on my car radio. It came back to the same station.
Son's team lost in the state finals, one run from making it to the regionals, his 12 year old year. Everyone can bash LLWS tournament all they want, but that run was so much fun for the kids, families and community. Being involved in a tournament that you don't pay to get into and are playing with you friends that you have played with since tball is priceless!
It is little boys having the time of their life - don't over analyze it!
It is little boys having the time of their life - don't over analyze it!
quote:Originally posted by cf:
Son's team lost in the state finals, one run from making it to the regionals, his 12 year old year. Everyone can bash LLWS tournament all they want, but that run was so much fun for the kids, families and community. Being involved in a tournament that you don't pay to get into and are playing with you friends that you have played with since tball is priceless!
It is little boys having the time of their life - don't over analyze it!
This.
Has it gotten too big? Probably.
Should they update their playing dimensions? Yes.
Other than that, there is simply no other youth sports event that comes close to this. There is plenty of time in the teen years to follow for travel ball, soulless teams, teammates you hardly know. This is towns, communities, families, friends. And this is bad?
A lot of interesting discussion on curves and overuse. Every kid is different so there is no one size fits all. Here's my story - My 14yo son started with the curve about half way through the 12yo season. He used it very little - maybe <5%. At 13 he was 9% C, 11% CH, and 80% FB. This year he was 17% C, 5% CH, and 78% FB. From late April through early July this year he threw 1,472 pitches in 96 innings over the 26 games he pitched in. Twice he went over 100 pitches, one 104 and another 106. Never, in all the years pitching, has he had an arm problem or complained of soreness. Last time he had a gun on him, that I saw anyway, was a bit over a year ago and he was at 73. Don't know where he is now but I know he's a lot faster. So he's not lobbing the ball up there - there is some torque on his arm. I'm curious to get your thoughts on usage and pitch mix.
LL all-stars was fun. It was a great time for the kids, the parents and the community. Both my son and I made knew friends through the time spent together. This happens when your team plays into August rather than 2&BBQ.
When my son was twelve he played a game before an estimated crowd of 800-1000. I told him to enjoy it. I told him he may not play a baseball game in front of that many people again.
Living within a three hour drive to Williamsport we went several times when my son was ten to twelve years old. There aren't any stangers at Williamsport. Everyone is connected by the game of baseball. We met interesting people from all over the country and the world. Williamsport is the Disneyland of Baseball.
When my son played only travel ball starting at thirteen he said he missed the "win or go home" aspect to all-stars. In travel ball there's always next week.
Nothing I've stated makes the quality of ball played in all-stars better than travel. But who cares in the preteen years. My son did both then. LL was the priority. If the clock was wound back to when he was a preteen I'd have him do it all over again the same way.
When my son was twelve he played a game before an estimated crowd of 800-1000. I told him to enjoy it. I told him he may not play a baseball game in front of that many people again.
Living within a three hour drive to Williamsport we went several times when my son was ten to twelve years old. There aren't any stangers at Williamsport. Everyone is connected by the game of baseball. We met interesting people from all over the country and the world. Williamsport is the Disneyland of Baseball.
When my son played only travel ball starting at thirteen he said he missed the "win or go home" aspect to all-stars. In travel ball there's always next week.
Nothing I've stated makes the quality of ball played in all-stars better than travel. But who cares in the preteen years. My son did both then. LL was the priority. If the clock was wound back to when he was a preteen I'd have him do it all over again the same way.
Nolan, I don't think I'm reading your post right. Do you mean this April to early July? (as in 2 1/2 months) If so, are you sure he threw 96 innings? My son,16, hasn't thrown 96 innings for the year.
smalltownmom - That is correct - not a typo. The team played 56 games in that time frame. 42 tournament and 14 league games. The #2 pitcher, primarily our "closer", threw 1,006 pitches in 56 innings over 30 games.
Sorry - That is not correct. Late March through July 4th. So a bit over 3 mos.