I watched one batter today.
Curveball
Curveball
Curveball
Curveball
I'm done.
Original Post
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Where have you been for the last 100 years?
I would guess he's been watching the LLWS Sultan, as he said in the first place.
To respond without any sarcasm biggerpapi, curveballs are an interesting discussion with respect to younger players. Studies have shown that throwing a curveball the right way will not hurt your arm. However, fatigue causes arm angles and arm slots to change, with further enhance injury possibilities. Young players generally have trouble repeating mechanics once that fatigue is reached, and thus potentially the reason for injuries.
It is pretty incredible to me how many curveballs are thrown in the games as well though. It'd be interesting to get some sort of biomechanical analysis on these young pitchers and to see the effects on the arm on top of all of these studies being conducted.
To respond without any sarcasm biggerpapi, curveballs are an interesting discussion with respect to younger players. Studies have shown that throwing a curveball the right way will not hurt your arm. However, fatigue causes arm angles and arm slots to change, with further enhance injury possibilities. Young players generally have trouble repeating mechanics once that fatigue is reached, and thus potentially the reason for injuries.
It is pretty incredible to me how many curveballs are thrown in the games as well though. It'd be interesting to get some sort of biomechanical analysis on these young pitchers and to see the effects on the arm on top of all of these studies being conducted.
How many 11-13 year olds really have consistant repeatable mechanics?
I thought they put restrictions on throwing them, or perhaps they are throwing a little league curve?
http://pitchingprofessor.com/a...e_breaking_ball.html
I thought they put restrictions on throwing them, or perhaps they are throwing a little league curve?
http://pitchingprofessor.com/a...e_breaking_ball.html
LLWS = waste of time
A K-curve (aka Knucklecurve) was something my son threw around 11-12yrs old without any kind of pressures on his elbow. And it's quite effective. Why don't they teach this instead at an early age?
I started practicing curveballs when I was 11 years old. I threw it once in a game that season, we were curious how batters would react since no one else in our league threw one.
It became a part of my repertoire when I was 12, when I would use maybe 10 times in a game, to the 1-3 hitters in the lineup that could get on my fastball (I was an early bloomer
)
I never threw a sequence as described in original post until after high school, but that is partly due to the fact that I started throwing a changeup and I found that to be a much more effective pitch.
It became a part of my repertoire when I was 12, when I would use maybe 10 times in a game, to the 1-3 hitters in the lineup that could get on my fastball (I was an early bloomer
)I never threw a sequence as described in original post until after high school, but that is partly due to the fact that I started throwing a changeup and I found that to be a much more effective pitch.
I personally see nothing wrong with kids throwing curveballs. My son was throwing them by the time he was 11 years old and throwing them rather frequently. Our main concern should be with "overuse". All of the new research now being done is finding that LL elbow is due primarily from "overuse". Throwing "curveballs" is not overuse just as throwing fastballs isn't overuse. Throwing too much on fatigued or even sore arms is "overuse" and then it flat out doesn't matter what a kid is throwing at that point.
But, if one wants to get real picky about it, studies by ASMI have actually shown that the fastball has the greatest stress loads on the arm. But....we don't hear about people complaining if a kid throws 10 fastballs in a row......
But, if one wants to get real picky about it, studies by ASMI have actually shown that the fastball has the greatest stress loads on the arm. But....we don't hear about people complaining if a kid throws 10 fastballs in a row......
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
I personally see nothing wrong with kids throwing curveballs. My son was throwing them by the time he was 11 years old and throwing them rather frequently. Our main concern should be with "overuse". All of the new research now being done is finding that LL elbow is due primarily from "overuse". Throwing "curveballs" is not overuse just as throwing fastballs isn't overuse. Throwing too much on fatigued or even sore arms is "overuse" and then it flat out doesn't matter what a kid is throwing at that point.
But, if one wants to get real picky about it, studies by ASMI have actually shown that the fastball has the greatest stress loads on the arm. But....we don't hear about people complaining if a kid throws 10 fastballs in a row......
If he was throwing them frequently, at 11 that signals overuse. The whole argument with the FB is because there are many that do not throw the FB correctly just as they do not throw CB correctly and a lot involves the argument of pronation vs supination, early or late. It also involves a lot of other stuff, which includes arm slot, RHP,LHP, wrist angles and where the pitcher is in his development (open or closed plates). There is a huge argument that supination is harmful for young pitchers and those pitches include breaking balls.
I would love to see a study on more and more CB specialists (those that don't throw the heat and rely on frequent use of CB), in HS,college and pro ball. I will bet they have just if not as many injury issues as heat throwers. You have a very little experience at this time. You remind me of the dad of the LHP who constantly was telling us what a stellar pitcher his LHP was, and he lived off of the CB to get players out, in college he was basically done, though the parent blamed it on the pitching coach, finally admitting as a seior he had shoulder issues. Someday if your son comes to you with an injury, you won't know whether it will be because of all those curveballs he threw or if he went home after pitching and threw a ball against the wall for hours after pitching. And you will not admit it, as most won't. I challenge any parent whose son has had to have shoulder or TJS to tell us what they threw when younger, most won't.
Do you hold up your information based on personal info? I mean how many kids do you see who are injured that throw very high velo in your area vs. other pitches? If you can, please present data. You claim that studies and data prove results yet in another topic when presented data, you don't recognize it. You are neither here nor there.
There's a proper way to throw a curveball, and an improper way to throw a curveball. Most pitchers throw the curve improperly. Studies indicate that the curveball is no more stressful on the arm than a fastball.
However, there is an overuse factor. Just like it takes hundreds of fastballs to throw it consistently, it takes hundreds of curveballs to throw it consistently. These hundreds of curveballs help lead to degradation of the UCL, which is a huge part in Tommy John.
On the other hand, I see nothing wrong with throwing a curveball as long as it's no more than 1-5 times a game. There's an age at which this becomes less of a worry, but unless the pitcher is biologically older than 16, an overuse issue can prevent the arm from continuing its growth.
As for the LLWS, I hate watching it. Especially when you have children bigger than I am. Remember Luke Ramirez: 6'2", 200 lbs? Is is really fair to a kid 4' 11", 90 lbs to get pitched to by him?
Finally, I can't stand the hitters. Most of them have TERRIBLE mechanics. The aluminum -8 to -12 covers it up so they can look like the big hero on ESPN. These kids struggle with the -3 bats. I want to see it played with wood. Louisville Slugger would become an even wealthier company overnight. I would like to see kids have wood bats. No more "dead hands, no stride, squash the bug, swing down"
hitting. It would help everybody so much and indicate that the US is very far behind in terms of hitters.
However, there is an overuse factor. Just like it takes hundreds of fastballs to throw it consistently, it takes hundreds of curveballs to throw it consistently. These hundreds of curveballs help lead to degradation of the UCL, which is a huge part in Tommy John.
On the other hand, I see nothing wrong with throwing a curveball as long as it's no more than 1-5 times a game. There's an age at which this becomes less of a worry, but unless the pitcher is biologically older than 16, an overuse issue can prevent the arm from continuing its growth.
As for the LLWS, I hate watching it. Especially when you have children bigger than I am. Remember Luke Ramirez: 6'2", 200 lbs? Is is really fair to a kid 4' 11", 90 lbs to get pitched to by him?
Finally, I can't stand the hitters. Most of them have TERRIBLE mechanics. The aluminum -8 to -12 covers it up so they can look like the big hero on ESPN. These kids struggle with the -3 bats. I want to see it played with wood. Louisville Slugger would become an even wealthier company overnight. I would like to see kids have wood bats. No more "dead hands, no stride, squash the bug, swing down"
hitting. It would help everybody so much and indicate that the US is very far behind in terms of hitters.
quote:Originally posted by Low Finish:
There's a proper way to throw a curveball, and an improper way to throw a curveball. Most pitchers throw the curve improperly. Studies indicate that the curveball is no more stressful on the arm than a fastball.
However, there is an overuse factor. Just like it takes hundreds of fastballs to throw it consistently, it takes hundreds of curveballs to throw it consistently. These hundreds of curveballs help lead to degradation of the UCL, which is a huge part in Tommy John.
On the other hand, I see nothing wrong with throwing a curveball as long as it's no more than 1-5 times a game. There's an age at which this becomes less of a worry, but unless the pitcher is biologically older than 16, an overuse issue can prevent the arm from continuing its growth.
As for the LLWS, I hate watching it. Especially when you have children bigger than I am. Remember Luke Ramirez: 6'2", 200 lbs? Is is really fair to a kid 4' 11", 90 lbs to get pitched to by him?
Finally, I can't stand the hitters. Most of them have TERRIBLE mechanics. The aluminum -8 to -12 covers it up so they can look like the big hero on ESPN. These kids struggle with the -3 bats. I want to see it played with wood. Louisville Slugger would become an even wealthier company overnight. I would like to see kids have wood bats. No more "dead hands, no stride, squash the bug, swing down"
hitting. It would help everybody so much and indicate that the US is very far behind in terms of hitters.
Calling something a curve ball is not terribly helpful if it is used to refer to all "balls that curve". My son threw a "curve ball" from a very young age to go with his relatively high velo fast ball. He caused the movement with nothing more than grip change and finger pressure - none of the twisting motion associated by most with a curve ball. Many well intentioned parents (most of whom were strangers to us) approached us at tournaments to warn us about the use of "curve balls" at his age. I am a firm believer that traditional curve ball have no place in the game for young pitchers - and if they are used (mine did not) - a few a game (5 or 6?) should be the max. A good pitching coach can teach a pitch that moves quite nicely to a young pitcher without endangering the arm. One pitching coach we worked with holds the opinioin that NO ONE - including pro's - should throw a true curve ball if they want to protect their arm. Not saying I agree - but an interesting opinion.
I, too, cringe when I see young pitchers throwing a traditional curve - but I also cringe when I watch young pitchers throw too many pitches of any kind - and get to little rest.
If all the parents that are soo excited about junior's success would consult experts on the appropriate care of a young pitcher's arm and then apply the information they receive - we would have fewer injuries. Remembering that the goal is NOT to win the LLWS - but to enjoy and have success at much higher levels - should empower parents to set limits. Like anywhere else - looking for immediate gratification in baseball can be costly in the long run.
I, too, cringe when I see young pitchers throwing a traditional curve - but I also cringe when I watch young pitchers throw too many pitches of any kind - and get to little rest.
If all the parents that are soo excited about junior's success would consult experts on the appropriate care of a young pitcher's arm and then apply the information they receive - we would have fewer injuries. Remembering that the goal is NOT to win the LLWS - but to enjoy and have success at much higher levels - should empower parents to set limits. Like anywhere else - looking for immediate gratification in baseball can be costly in the long run.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
I personally see nothing wrong with kids throwing curveballs. My son was throwing them by the time he was 11 years old and throwing them rather frequently. Our main concern should be with "overuse". All of the new research now being done is finding that LL elbow is due primarily from "overuse". Throwing "curveballs" is not overuse just as throwing fastballs isn't overuse. Throwing too much on fatigued or even sore arms is "overuse" and then it flat out doesn't matter what a kid is throwing at that point.
But, if one wants to get real picky about it, studies by ASMI have actually shown that the fastball has the greatest stress loads on the arm. But....we don't hear about people complaining if a kid throws 10 fastballs in a row......
If he was throwing them frequently, at 11 that signals overuse. The whole argument with the FB is because there are many that do not throw the FB correctly just as they do not throw CB correctly and a lot involves the argument of pronation vs supination, early or late. It also involves a lot of other stuff, which includes arm slot, RHP,LHP, wrist angles and where the pitcher is in his development (open or closed plates). There is a huge argument that supination is harmful for young pitchers and those pitches include breaking balls.
I would love to see a study on more and more CB specialists (those that don't throw the heat and rely on frequent use of CB), in HS,college and pro ball. I will bet they have just if not as many injury issues as heat throwers. You have a very little experience at this time. You remind me of the dad of the LHP who constantly was telling us what a stellar pitcher his LHP was, and he lived off of the CB to get players out, in college he was basically done, though the parent blamed it on the pitching coach, finally admitting as a seior he had shoulder issues. Someday if your son comes to you with an injury, you won't know whether it will be because of all those curveballs he threw or if he went home after pitching and threw a ball against the wall for hours after pitching. And you will not admit it, as most won't. I challenge any parent whose son has had to have shoulder or TJS to tell us what they threw when younger, most won't.
Do you hold up your information based on personal info? I mean how many kids do you see who are injured that throw very high velo in your area vs. other pitches? If you can, please present data. You claim that studies and data prove results yet in another topic when presented data, you don't recognize it. You are neither here nor there.
JH is correct that ASMI's later studies have suggested that a properly thrown curveball imposes no additional stress. HOWEVER, Dr. Andrews continues to recommend that kids not throw curveballs until they start shaving.
Here are some numbers that Andrews quotes in his speaches. I believe that these are based on his patients that he has treated over the years rather than some empirical study. Some would say they represent opinions rather than facts, but I'll take Andrews word for it.
According to Andrews:
--Kids that throw over 80 mph are twice as likely (200%) to develop arm problems.
--Kids that frequently throw 80 pitches per game are 3.8 (380%) times more likely to develop arm problems.
--Kids that throw competitively for more than 8 mos. per year are 5 times (500%) more likely to develop arm problems.
--Kids that frequently throw while fatigued are 36 times (3600%) more likely to develop arm problems.
I have seen these same numbers several times. Look for an article by David List on the Diamond Prospects site. There also used to be in a video that was on either the LL or ASMI sites.
While Andrews continues to recommend restraint with curve balls, his, and ASMI's, major focus is true overuse, i.e. too many piches and too little rest.
Injuries are going to happen, no matter how careful you are. Follow the ASMI recommendations to a T and you can help minimize them, but they are still going to happen, especially when you throw 90 mph.
quote:...Studies indicate that the curveball is no more stressful on the arm than a fastball...
If and when you can finally get a 12 year old to understand, patiently develop, and then get control of the complex curveball motion, then this is probably correct. The real issue is that the range of 12 y/o's are in such different places developmentally (physically, intellectually, emotionally) that you can't ensure it can be accomplished across enough of them. Some kids don't have the strength to stay on top of the ball no matter how much they know they're supposed to. Then, in a game they start noticing they can still get it to move a little and yet control it better with a slight twisting motion and so they start "cheating". So a lot of kids end up getting hurt, no matter how brilliant and preachy their pitching coaches are about mechanics.
I think everybody gets the overuse argument - its kindof a no-brainer. But its difficult to measure overuse (until you get there) and its a mistake to think that watching overuse will be all you have to do to prevent injuries.
This is the link to an excellent presentation that Andrews and Fleisig made to Little League in 2007. It is audio and Power Point slides. Be sure and listen to/watch Andrews presentation. It focuses mainly on overuse, but touches a lot of other topics. Fleisig talks about some to the numbers I posted above, as well as mechanics.
I sure that people will hear what they want to here in these presentations. My understanding is that the studies dealing with curveballs are inconclusive. But why gamble with a kids future?
http://www.littleleague.org/le...itchpresentation.htm
I sure that people will hear what they want to here in these presentations. My understanding is that the studies dealing with curveballs are inconclusive. But why gamble with a kids future?
http://www.littleleague.org/le...itchpresentation.htm
ASMI, a well meaning group, does have a few logic problems with this pitch.
They show a scary slide headlining that 64% of pitchers with UCL problems threw curveballs.
What they don't tell you is that 100% of them threw fastballs. (that must be really scary)
Then they say that radar guns are a big factor in injuries and "many parents even have radar guns".
Parents with guns like me are monitoring fatigue to prevent injuries. Personally, I don't see why you would want to train a pitcher without a measuring device.
They show a scary slide headlining that 64% of pitchers with UCL problems threw curveballs.
What they don't tell you is that 100% of them threw fastballs. (that must be really scary)
Then they say that radar guns are a big factor in injuries and "many parents even have radar guns".
Parents with guns like me are monitoring fatigue to prevent injuries. Personally, I don't see why you would want to train a pitcher without a measuring device.
quote:Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
ASMI, a well meaning group, does have a few logic problems with this pitch.
They show a scary slide headlining that 64% of pitchers with UCL problems threw curveballs.
What they don't tell you is that 100% of them threw fastballs. (that must be really scary)
Then they say that radar guns are a big factor in injuries and "many parents even have radar guns".
Parents with guns like me are monitoring fatigue to prevent injuries. Personally, I don't see why you would want to train a pitcher without a measuring device.
Radar guns are a factor. I have no objection to radar gunning a kid, if you keep it to yourself. However, I do have an objection to making it obvious that you're radar gunning a kid and telling the entire team that you're gunning their pitches. Furthermore, sharing that information publicly isn't a good idea.
Kids try to out do the kid before them, leading to unnecessary wear and tear. If this happens enough, the kid hurts his arm.
So in summary, you can clock the kid, but share the results only with him or keep them to yourself. Kids trying to out do each other leads to injuries.
He doesn't go into in the audio above, but I think what Andrews is talking about is kids "throwing to the gun." I other words, seeing the gun and trying to overthrow. I think there was another article in which he mentioned seeing several patients who had injured themselves at showcases trying to max out for the radar gun.
I have no doubt that you use your gun to monitor fatigue. But fess up, you did not buy it for that purpose. You bought it to monitor progress in velocity. (Not necessarily a bad thing IMHO).
I have no doubt that you use your gun to monitor fatigue. But fess up, you did not buy it for that purpose. You bought it to monitor progress in velocity. (Not necessarily a bad thing IMHO).
quote:Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
ASMI, a well meaning group, does have a few logic problems with this pitch.
They show a scary slide headlining that 64% of pitchers with UCL problems threw curveballs.
What they don't tell you is that 100% of them threw fastballs. (that must be really scary)
Then they say that radar guns are a big factor in injuries and "many parents even have radar guns".
Parents with guns like me are monitoring fatigue to prevent injuries. Personally, I don't see why you would want to train a pitcher without a measuring device.
quote:What they don't tell you is that 100% of them threw fastballs. (that must be really scary)
I love this!
And %100 wore a glove and threw from a mound. Pitching is a strenuous activity. Throwing over 90mph is a statistical indicator of increased chance of injury too - tough to tell a kid not to do that if they are capable.
Seriously - common sense goes a long way. Remember these are KIDS we are talking about (even the ones in high school that shave). There is time to learn a curve ball if needed. Encourage your KIDS / players to be very honest with you about how they feel. They need to understand when to tough it out for the good of the team and when to back off due to fatigue or pain/discomfort. Curve balls are not the only way to win a game.
quote:Originally posted by Low Finish:
So in summary, you can clock the kid, but share the results only with him or keep them to yourself. Kids trying to out do each other leads to injuries.
Can you tell me how many kids that you have personally witnessed get injured while "throwing for the gun"? Accordingly, there must be hundreds that get hurt at PG events every year.
I have never seen a pitcher get hurt like this, and I have been doing this a long time.
When you gun a team, the kids get excited for the first pitch or two, then they don't even know you are there for the rest of the game/season.
We should ban grandma from watching little Johnny also. He might try to throw too hard.
This is a silly myth that doesn't pass the slightest bit of scrutiny, and it's a shame that ASMI pushes it.
I can't stand watching the LLWS anymore. One of the announcers said "He's very likely to play at the next level". The next level is high school! (This was the Georgia-West Virginia game).
One of the most ridiculous things I've heard in a while...
One of the most ridiculous things I've heard in a while...
quote:Originally posted by SultanofSwat:quote:Originally posted by Low Finish:
So in summary, you can clock the kid, but share the results only with him or keep them to yourself. Kids trying to out do each other leads to injuries.
Can you tell me how many kids that you have personally witnessed get injured while "throwing for the gun"? Accordingly, there must be hundreds that get hurt at PG events every year.
I have never seen a pitcher get hurt like this, and I have been doing this a long time.
When you gun a team, the kids get excited for the first pitch or two, then they don't even know you are there for the rest of the game/season.
We should ban grandma from watching little Johnny also. He might try to throw too hard.
This is a silly myth that doesn't pass the slightest bit of scrutiny, and it's a shame that ASMI pushes it.
Never said that I had witnessed any such thing. I said that as I recalled Andrews had previously said that HE had treated patients injured at showcases.
If you keep track of what Andrews/ASMI preaches you should know that his/their feelings about radar guns are a VERY minor part of their platform. The main thing they focus on is overuse, pitch counts, inadequate rest during the season, year round play, etc.
Keep your gun. I agree with you that they can be valuable tools. But don't try to sell the BS that you got it to monitor fatigue. Out of curiousity, how much of a drop in velocity is a sign of fatigue? 1 mph? 2 mph? 5 mph? When does the gun tell you it is time to take a kid out.
Interesting thread because there are really two subjects worth considering here. The curveball thing and the LLWS in and of itself.
I'm sure there strong feelings all the way around, but I'm with the folks who are disinterested in the LLWS. To me it all comes down to post-May 1 13 year-olds playing on a 60-foot diamond, with a 46 foot mound, and 220 foot fences. It seems absolutely inauthentic to me.
As for the curveball thing, it seems so utterly prevalent in this age group now. I have no opinion on the health issue because I don't think studies have been (or can be) definitive at all. The problem I have with the curve at 12 years-old is that it's become an utter crutch for kids (or kids' coaches, or their dads, or all of these) who want to get outs without learning how to really pitch.
From what I've seen over the past two years as my son entered and passed through this age-group, kids with semi-reliable curves use them invariably to get 'swing and miss' strikeouts because they can't spot their fastballs with any consistency, and/or change speeds in any useful way. Count goes to 0-2? Here comes Charlie.
To me that's just an unsustainable approach to developing a young pitcher. These kids have to be able to move a fastball around AND change speeds as he grows inorder to remain successful.
I'm sure there strong feelings all the way around, but I'm with the folks who are disinterested in the LLWS. To me it all comes down to post-May 1 13 year-olds playing on a 60-foot diamond, with a 46 foot mound, and 220 foot fences. It seems absolutely inauthentic to me.
As for the curveball thing, it seems so utterly prevalent in this age group now. I have no opinion on the health issue because I don't think studies have been (or can be) definitive at all. The problem I have with the curve at 12 years-old is that it's become an utter crutch for kids (or kids' coaches, or their dads, or all of these) who want to get outs without learning how to really pitch.
From what I've seen over the past two years as my son entered and passed through this age-group, kids with semi-reliable curves use them invariably to get 'swing and miss' strikeouts because they can't spot their fastballs with any consistency, and/or change speeds in any useful way. Count goes to 0-2? Here comes Charlie.
To me that's just an unsustainable approach to developing a young pitcher. These kids have to be able to move a fastball around AND change speeds as he grows inorder to remain successful.
quote:Originally posted by MTH:
Out of curiousity, how much of a drop in velocity is a sign of fatigue? 1 mph? 2 mph? 5 mph? When does the gun tell you it is time to take a kid out.
Around 3 mph (consistently) seemed to be the right number. This would also coincide with walks.
I like watching it. To me, they're kids getting treated like big leaguers for a little while. It's a dream come true. What's so bad about that?
I'm with AntzDad. We've been to the LLWS in Williamsport several times. It is great seeing kids having fun PLAYING the game.
By the way, the MVP at the PG WWBA 17U this year was one of the big pitchers several years ago when his team from Georgia won the LLWS.
Personally, I would like to see them play on the larger field. The 46 foot mound is pretty close for how hard some of the kids have been throwing in the past few years (but the batters can still hit them).
By the way, the MVP at the PG WWBA 17U this year was one of the big pitchers several years ago when his team from Georgia won the LLWS.
Personally, I would like to see them play on the larger field. The 46 foot mound is pretty close for how hard some of the kids have been throwing in the past few years (but the batters can still hit them).
I love watching the LL world series. I would much rather watch a bunch of kids playing a team sport as a team trying to win as a team for their home towns. Than to watch what can playing on this team do for me.
On espn last night they showed a tweet from Strasburg who was complaining about the curveballs and the one kid who "pimped" his homerun. I understand the amount of curveballs gets out of hand, but where do you think the kid learned how to "pimp" his homeruns? Major League Baseball. I love seeing these kids get the chance to feel like MLB players for a while.
C'mon Coach down by one, you got 1st & 2nd nothing, and you don't bunt? nah, let em hit into the DP Are you kidding???
Was thinking the very same thing. Not like it was his big bopper at the plate either. That shocked me to be honest.
quote:Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
Can you tell me how many kids that you have personally witnessed get injured while "throwing for the gun"?
I am not sure but I do believe that they felt there was a strong correlation between injuries and attending numreous tournaments and showcases where they take velocities.
The first time son hit the magic #, there was about 6-7 radar guns on him and a whole lot of important people watching. I am pretty sure he threw as hard as he could to impress someone. That is one of the reasons why we started a bit later with the torunies and showcases that take those stats. I didn't think at 13,14 he needed that and he hit 90 without being "charted" for progress at an early age. Personal preference.
I have no problem with the gun as a teaching tool, HS players should start to begin to chart pitches (you got to do this in college) which would include using the radar gun. But when I see a dad sitting at a 14-15 tournament gunning his pitcher and then telling him during the game his velocity, well that is just plain out of control and could be a recipe for disaster, IMO.
Of course players try to outdo each other, it's their competitve nature to do so. I wouldn't expect any less.
quote:Originally posted by AntzDad:
I like watching it. To me, they're kids getting treated like big leaguers for a little while. It's a dream come true. What's so bad about that?
I like it. My son has two pitching students on the Louisiana team.
I bet he's proud of them. I'll root for Louisiana. How's that?
Cell service can be spotty up there. He might not be able to get a hold of them. Last time I was around Williamsport, I hit scan on my car radio. It came back to the same station.
Cell service can be spotty up there. He might not be able to get a hold of them. Last time I was around Williamsport, I hit scan on my car radio. It came back to the same station.
Son's team lost in the state finals, one run from making it to the regionals, his 12 year old year. Everyone can bash LLWS tournament all they want, but that run was so much fun for the kids, families and community. Being involved in a tournament that you don't pay to get into and are playing with you friends that you have played with since tball is priceless!
It is little boys having the time of their life - don't over analyze it!
It is little boys having the time of their life - don't over analyze it!
quote:Originally posted by cf:
Son's team lost in the state finals, one run from making it to the regionals, his 12 year old year. Everyone can bash LLWS tournament all they want, but that run was so much fun for the kids, families and community. Being involved in a tournament that you don't pay to get into and are playing with you friends that you have played with since tball is priceless!
It is little boys having the time of their life - don't over analyze it!
This.
Has it gotten too big? Probably.
Should they update their playing dimensions? Yes.
Other than that, there is simply no other youth sports event that comes close to this. There is plenty of time in the teen years to follow for travel ball, soulless teams, teammates you hardly know. This is towns, communities, families, friends. And this is bad?
A lot of interesting discussion on curves and overuse. Every kid is different so there is no one size fits all. Here's my story - My 14yo son started with the curve about half way through the 12yo season. He used it very little - maybe <5%. At 13 he was 9% C, 11% CH, and 80% FB. This year he was 17% C, 5% CH, and 78% FB. From late April through early July this year he threw 1,472 pitches in 96 innings over the 26 games he pitched in. Twice he went over 100 pitches, one 104 and another 106. Never, in all the years pitching, has he had an arm problem or complained of soreness. Last time he had a gun on him, that I saw anyway, was a bit over a year ago and he was at 73. Don't know where he is now but I know he's a lot faster. So he's not lobbing the ball up there - there is some torque on his arm. I'm curious to get your thoughts on usage and pitch mix.
LL all-stars was fun. It was a great time for the kids, the parents and the community. Both my son and I made knew friends through the time spent together. This happens when your team plays into August rather than 2&BBQ.
When my son was twelve he played a game before an estimated crowd of 800-1000. I told him to enjoy it. I told him he may not play a baseball game in front of that many people again.
Living within a three hour drive to Williamsport we went several times when my son was ten to twelve years old. There aren't any stangers at Williamsport. Everyone is connected by the game of baseball. We met interesting people from all over the country and the world. Williamsport is the Disneyland of Baseball.
When my son played only travel ball starting at thirteen he said he missed the "win or go home" aspect to all-stars. In travel ball there's always next week.
Nothing I've stated makes the quality of ball played in all-stars better than travel. But who cares in the preteen years. My son did both then. LL was the priority. If the clock was wound back to when he was a preteen I'd have him do it all over again the same way.
When my son was twelve he played a game before an estimated crowd of 800-1000. I told him to enjoy it. I told him he may not play a baseball game in front of that many people again.
Living within a three hour drive to Williamsport we went several times when my son was ten to twelve years old. There aren't any stangers at Williamsport. Everyone is connected by the game of baseball. We met interesting people from all over the country and the world. Williamsport is the Disneyland of Baseball.
When my son played only travel ball starting at thirteen he said he missed the "win or go home" aspect to all-stars. In travel ball there's always next week.
Nothing I've stated makes the quality of ball played in all-stars better than travel. But who cares in the preteen years. My son did both then. LL was the priority. If the clock was wound back to when he was a preteen I'd have him do it all over again the same way.
Nolan, I don't think I'm reading your post right. Do you mean this April to early July? (as in 2 1/2 months) If so, are you sure he threw 96 innings? My son,16, hasn't thrown 96 innings for the year.
smalltownmom - That is correct - not a typo. The team played 56 games in that time frame. 42 tournament and 14 league games. The #2 pitcher, primarily our "closer", threw 1,006 pitches in 56 innings over 30 games.
Sorry - That is not correct. Late March through July 4th. So a bit over 3 mos.
I would like to issue a word of caution, when it comes down to criticizing little league coaches whether it be about the number of curve balls thrown or decisions during the game.
I think most coaches have the best interest of the kids in mind. I would think there is a certain amount of anxiety a coach feels with his team being on national television. In most cases the coaches have little experience in having their actions televised.
I have coached little league all star teams that consistently made it to state semi-finals and finals. In more than one of those cases the team lost because I made incorrect baseball decisions.
I also had a situation where I allowed a pitcher on a 9-10 all star game to throw 110 pitches. I had no idea that he was that high, In the late innings I was concerned about getting everyone the required playing time. My assistant coaches didn’t advise me of the pitch count. My fault, as I didn’t identify an assistant to keep a pitch count. For those who knew my coaching style, I was normally very conservative with the number of pitches a kid threw and who could throw a curveball This was one time in which I was so consumed with the other things going on with the game, I lost track of the pitch count.
I watch the LLWS every year. I enjoy is as I am aware of time and effort the players, coaches and families put into the goal of reaching the LLWS. From that perspective the LLWS is a positive event.
I think most coaches have the best interest of the kids in mind. I would think there is a certain amount of anxiety a coach feels with his team being on national television. In most cases the coaches have little experience in having their actions televised.
I have coached little league all star teams that consistently made it to state semi-finals and finals. In more than one of those cases the team lost because I made incorrect baseball decisions.
I also had a situation where I allowed a pitcher on a 9-10 all star game to throw 110 pitches. I had no idea that he was that high, In the late innings I was concerned about getting everyone the required playing time. My assistant coaches didn’t advise me of the pitch count. My fault, as I didn’t identify an assistant to keep a pitch count. For those who knew my coaching style, I was normally very conservative with the number of pitches a kid threw and who could throw a curveball This was one time in which I was so consumed with the other things going on with the game, I lost track of the pitch count.
I watch the LLWS every year. I enjoy is as I am aware of time and effort the players, coaches and families put into the goal of reaching the LLWS. From that perspective the LLWS is a positive event.
Nolan--
That's an average of 15 pitches an inning, which I believe is very good for that age. In my mind it's still too many innings and pitches, but I guess everybody makes their own call. Our son is just under 80 innings for the year. (early March to present) He will be done soon for the summer, and limit his pitching in the fall-- more focus on conditioning and hitting. At that age it just seems like a lot of pitching. Will he also play in the fall, or will he take time off?
That's an average of 15 pitches an inning, which I believe is very good for that age. In my mind it's still too many innings and pitches, but I guess everybody makes their own call. Our son is just under 80 innings for the year. (early March to present) He will be done soon for the summer, and limit his pitching in the fall-- more focus on conditioning and hitting. At that age it just seems like a lot of pitching. Will he also play in the fall, or will he take time off?
Nolan,
In an interview three years ago, Karl Kuhn, the pitching coach at UVA, recommended limiting pitchers to 100 pitches thrown in a competitive setting times their age in a calendar year. By his reckoning, your son is already past his annual limit.
Best wishes.
In an interview three years ago, Karl Kuhn, the pitching coach at UVA, recommended limiting pitchers to 100 pitches thrown in a competitive setting times their age in a calendar year. By his reckoning, your son is already past his annual limit.
Best wishes.
Swampboy-- Wow. Thanks for the video. Extremely impressive and a great reinforcer. Like the towel drill and 5 pitches to correct posture. Have heard nothing but great things about Coach Kuhn. I sure am glad you posted that video.
quote:Originally posted by nolan ryan:
A lot of interesting discussion on curves and overuse. Every kid is different so there is no one size fits all. Here's my story - My 14yo son started with the curve about half way through the 12yo season. He used it very little - maybe <5%. At 13 he was 9% C, 11% CH, and 80% FB. This year he was 17% C, 5% CH, and 78% FB. From late April through early July this year he threw 1,472 pitches in 96 innings over the 26 games he pitched in. Twice he went over 100 pitches, one 104 and another 106. Never, in all the years pitching, has he had an arm problem or complained of soreness. Last time he had a gun on him, that I saw anyway, was a bit over a year ago and he was at 73. Don't know where he is now but I know he's a lot faster. So he's not lobbing the ball up there - there is some torque on his arm. I'm curious to get your thoughts on usage and pitch mix.
Not sure if you have heard (I know you have), overuse is the main cause of injury, which usually shows up later on.
You may not like what I have to say, your son is 15, shame on you.
quote:Originally posted by nolan ryan:
I'm curious to get your thoughts on usage and pitch mix.
Nolan,
As reference, our HS varsity workhorse threw 50+ innings/ 800+ pitches during HS season. For HS summer ball and scout summer team, he has probably thrown an additional30-40 innings/approx 500 pitches. This is the rising senior workhorse - over the course of five months. Compare these numbers to your son's three month total.
(Disclaimer - I know that many HS programs throw their top guy more innings than ours but hopefully, you still get the point.)
As has been posted and radio blogged often here recently, there are many varying opinions on long toss, daily throwing, rest periods, overuse, etc.
However, I think that you would get a resounding general consensus that your 14/15 yo is pitching too many innings/# of pitches. Please, for your son, do some serious research. Quickly.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
If he was throwing them frequently, at 11 that signals overuse. The whole argument with the FB is because there are many that do not throw the FB correctly just as they do not throw CB correctly and a lot involves the argument of pronation vs supination, early or late. It also involves a lot of other stuff, which includes arm slot, RHP,LHP, wrist angles and where the pitcher is in his development (open or closed plates). There is a huge argument that supination is harmful for young pitchers and those pitches include breaking balls.
I would love to see a study on more and more CB specialists (those that don't throw the heat and rely on frequent use of CB), in HS,college and pro ball. I will bet they have just if not as many injury issues as heat throwers. You have a very little experience at this time. You remind me of the dad of the LHP who constantly was telling us what a stellar pitcher his LHP was, and he lived off of the CB to get players out, in college he was basically done, though the parent blamed it on the pitching coach, finally admitting as a seior he had shoulder issues. Someday if your son comes to you with an injury, you won't know whether it will be because of all those curveballs he threw or if he went home after pitching and threw a ball against the wall for hours after pitching. And you will not admit it, as most won't. I challenge any parent whose son has had to have shoulder or TJS to tell us what they threw when younger, most won't.
Do you hold up your information based on personal info? I mean how many kids do you see who are injured that throw very high velo in your area vs. other pitches? If you can, please present data. You claim that studies and data prove results yet in another topic when presented data, you don't recognize it. You are neither here nor there.
TPM,
You are certainly not an expert.
How can you even claim that because my son threw a curveball at 11 that it was overuse?C'mon please, we both know that "pitching too much" causing "fatigue" is the leading cause for youth injury and perhaps even injury in HS and beyond. "Overuse" is the definition of a pitcher who throws either while fatigued or injured or both. Now certainly just throwing a breaking ball correctly cannot possibly be termed "overuse" at any age unless he is doing so while either injured or fatigued.
Of course you agree don't you?
I thought I'd get a couple "shame on you's". I know it doesn't sound great but like I said, every kid is different and there is no mathematical formula you can apply to all kids. Body types and deliveries are much different. My son has long arms, big hands, and broad shoulders. His delivery is long, smooth, and effortless. We've all seen the kids, we have some on our team, that stress, strain, and grind to throw every pitch as hard as they can - looks like their arm may fly off at any minute - or they just may p**p their pants! Logic tells me that my son should be able to throw many more pitches than the kid putting way more stress on their elbow and shoulder.
He took July off other than some catch here and there. He'll play some fall ball, maybe 3-4 tournaments and a few practices.
Once he gets into HS and showcase ball next year, the coaches will likely be far more limited on pitch counts/innings.
He took July off other than some catch here and there. He'll play some fall ball, maybe 3-4 tournaments and a few practices.
Once he gets into HS and showcase ball next year, the coaches will likely be far more limited on pitch counts/innings.
Make sure you stress the fact that you don't want to overuse his arm especially as a freshman and coaches a lot of times may forget to look at pitch count. I threw almost 130 pitches one game, one because i felt amazing and two because I had a no hitter going. Thank God it didn't have an effect on me after and I got more than a week and a half almost two weeks rest other than long toss after that. But what i'm saying is, you need to make sure you stress the fact that you are on a pitch count; especially as a starter
quote:Originally posted by nolan ryan:
I thought I'd get a couple "shame on you's". I know it doesn't sound great but like I said, every kid is different and there is no mathematical formula you can apply to all kids. Body types and deliveries are much different. My son has long arms, big hands, and broad shoulders. His delivery is long, smooth, and effortless. We've all seen the kids, we have some on our team, that stress, strain, and grind to throw every pitch as hard as they can - looks like their arm may fly off at any minute - or they just may p**p their pants! Logic tells me that my son should be able to throw many more pitches than the kid putting way more stress on their elbow and shoulder.
He took July off other than some catch here and there. He'll play some fall ball, maybe 3-4 tournaments and a few practices.
Once he gets into HS and showcase ball next year, the coaches will likely be far more limited on pitch counts/innings.
You asked us for thoughts, I gave mine, you can justify all you want, but with the innings and pitch counts you have given us, that is overuse. If you think that your son will avoid issues because of his delivery, or his statue you are kidding yourself. You think as he gets older they will cut back, no that is the time when the innings and pitch counts increase, that is the IMPORTANT time.
I have given my stance on the frequent use of the curveball at a young age, my opinion is no one here would like to admit their sons injury was caused by anything other than it "just happened". Pitching is risk vs reward, you all as parents can control it when your kids are young after that it's out of your hands. What are you gonna do, call up the college coach and tell him your son pitched too much the day before? Your time is now, use it wisely.
What you dads tend to not realize is that your sons can sail through middle school and high school, maybe college, maybe drafted. Just ask a minor league first rounder how he feels that he has major shoulder issues and removed from the 40 man and not placed back on because everyone knows that shoulders rarely heel. Ask all of those guys who are released even after TJS because the organization can't wait another year while you find your control. Just ask the college starter who is supposed to be a first round pick (actually first of 5) and blows out his UCL (HS overload and multo sport), and is not drafted, the following year later because he can't find his control. He is playing in ML but he lost out of LOTS of money due to overuse before he got to college. Just ask the HS starter who has every major D1 after him and suddenly he develops shoulder issues (lose of velo). Most of those programs suddenly disappear.
Because you are not seeing it now, doesn't mean it's not possible. Again, you all sound like a dad that bragged how great his son's performance was all through growing up and HS and got to college and couldn't pitch more than an inning at a time. Shoulder issues.
You do what you want, it's only you guys who have to get up in the morning and look at yourself in the mirror everyday, enjoy as much as you can now.
Talking to a trainer from a big program the other day, can't beleive what issues pitchers come with. You guys have no clue, really you don't. You want to argue, fine, but I can't see hoe parents of 14,15 year olds can see the future, unless you have a crystal ball.
I don't have a dog in this fight anymore, luckily my player has escaped major issues, but non the less he has had issues that have set him back, maybe even prevented him from someday reaching the top, even WITH minor stuff. Has he gone further than many, yes, but that was not the original intention. You see for every pitcher that goes down, there is another one right behind you, HS, college and pro.
quote:Originally posted by nolan ryan:
Logic tells me that my son should be able to throw many more pitches than the kid putting way more stress on their elbow and shoulder.
It tells me the same thing!
I tivoed and watch 5 of the games yesterday. I'm sorry but maybe I have a much different view of good 12 year old mechanics than some but I saw some really good swings. Yes I saw some bad ones but saw some great ones as well. The lead off hitter for Florida has a beautiful swing.
Swampboy - Very well stated and much appreciated!
You are absolutely correct in that it's a risk/reward balance. My thought was that the more he is out there the more situations, batters, etc he will face, and it will make him a better player. Practice makes perfect, 10,000 hours, etc, right? But you are correct in that there are likely diminishing returns to this, especially within a given season.
One benefit you didn't mention. He absolutely loves every second he is on the mound. He is in charge and is the star. He hated when the season ended and can't wait until the next tournament in a few weeks (right now he is at home likely throwing a tennis ball into a pillow placed on the couch - while watching MLB network). I'd hate to take some of that away but I surely would if I thought there were a high risk of injury.
I don't want to give the impression that we are not concerned with arm health and pitch him whenever we feel like it. His coach (arm injury ended his college pitching career) and I are very aware. We keep detailed pitching stats, he gets plenty of rest between starts - at least two days, and we continually ask how his arm feels (never an issue). A lot of his 26 appearances were in weekday league games where he'd pitch an inning just to keep fresh.
It's tough to get the proper balance. Guess that's why this topic is discussed so much! Thanks again for the comments. You've given me something to think about!
You are absolutely correct in that it's a risk/reward balance. My thought was that the more he is out there the more situations, batters, etc he will face, and it will make him a better player. Practice makes perfect, 10,000 hours, etc, right? But you are correct in that there are likely diminishing returns to this, especially within a given season.
One benefit you didn't mention. He absolutely loves every second he is on the mound. He is in charge and is the star. He hated when the season ended and can't wait until the next tournament in a few weeks (right now he is at home likely throwing a tennis ball into a pillow placed on the couch - while watching MLB network). I'd hate to take some of that away but I surely would if I thought there were a high risk of injury.
I don't want to give the impression that we are not concerned with arm health and pitch him whenever we feel like it. His coach (arm injury ended his college pitching career) and I are very aware. We keep detailed pitching stats, he gets plenty of rest between starts - at least two days, and we continually ask how his arm feels (never an issue). A lot of his 26 appearances were in weekday league games where he'd pitch an inning just to keep fresh.
It's tough to get the proper balance. Guess that's why this topic is discussed so much! Thanks again for the comments. You've given me something to think about!
2 days between starts?
It's not tough to find a balance, the former college who ended his career with an arm injury should know better.
It's not tough to find a balance, the former college who ended his career with an arm injury should know better.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
You asked us for thoughts, I gave mine, you can justify all you want, but with the innings and pitch counts you have given us, that is overuse. If you think that your son will avoid issues because of his delivery, or his statue you are kidding yourself. You think as he gets older they will cut back, no that is the time when the innings and pitch counts increase, that is the IMPORTANT time.
I have given my stance on the frequent use of the curveball at a young age, my opinion is no one here would like to admit their sons injury was caused by anything other than it "just happened". Pitching is risk vs reward, you all as parents can control it when your kids are young after that it's out of your hands. What are you gonna do, call up the college coach and tell him your son pitched too much the day before? Your time is now, use it wisely.
What you dads tend to not realize is that your sons can sail through middle school and high school, maybe college, maybe drafted. Just ask a minor league first rounder how he feels that he has major shoulder issues and removed from the 40 man and not placed back on because everyone knows that shoulders rarely heel. Ask all of those guys who are released even after TJS because the organization can't wait another year while you find your control. Just ask the college starter who is supposed to be a first round pick (actually first of 5) and blows out his UCL (HS overload and multo sport), and is not drafted, the following year later because he can't find his control. He is playing in ML but he lost out of LOTS of money due to overuse before he got to college. Just ask the HS starter who has every major D1 after him and suddenly he develops shoulder issues (lose of velo). Most of those programs suddenly disappear.
Because you are not seeing it now, doesn't mean it's not possible. Again, you all sound like a dad that bragged how great his son's performance was all through growing up and HS and got to college and couldn't pitch more than an inning at a time. Shoulder issues.
You do what you want, it's only you guys who have to get up in the morning and look at yourself in the mirror everyday, enjoy as much as you can now.
Talking to a trainer from a big program the other day, can't beleive what issues pitchers come with. You guys have no clue, really you don't. You want to argue, fine, but I can't see hoe parents of 14,15 year olds can see the future, unless you have a crystal ball.
I don't have a dog in this fight anymore, luckily my player has escaped major issues, but non the less he has had issues that have set him back, maybe even prevented him from someday reaching the top, even WITH minor stuff. Has he gone further than many, yes, but that was not the original intention. You see for every pitcher that goes down, there is another one right behind you, HS, college and pro.
I agree with this for the most part. I'm not a Marshallite in the traditional sense, though I do subscribe to some of his tenets (Release the ball as high as you can and pronating every pitch). There are successful (and injury free) pitchers who didn't do what he said to do, and that leads me to use other information.
Personally, I wouldn't teach (and I don't throw it regularly ) a curveball until the kid is at least biologically 16. I would teach the kid a variant of the Maxline Pronation Curve. I've thrown the Maxline from time to time, always with fair results.
On the other hand, I feel that he is incorrect on certain things. I don't see "Pitching Forearm Flyout" as an issue, and I don't see "Subscapularis detachment" arising from Scap Load to be a big issue either.
N y m a n on the other hand believes that injuries are a function of genetics. For the most part, I think he's right, but mechanics as well as overuse play a part as well. Mills is right on one thing (at least in my opinion). Most pitching drills are a waste of time. I have used weighted balls from time to time, but I feel that the best way to learn to pitch/throw well is by doing just that, throwing a lot.
You don't need a pitching coach or a hitting coach if you can learn through trial and error. I'm really starting to get irritated with "Little Johnny goes to (insert pitching coach here) x times per month! He's going to be a great pitcher!"
Most "pitching coaches" don't know what they're talking about. The kids that they teach would be better learning by themselves. However, I'm sure that there are at least a few people here who know how the body moves the ball.
And just for the record:
I am NOT Paul N y m a n
it is all about common sense
TPM - 1,470 pitches over 10 weeks (147 per wk)and 26 appearances (avg 56 pitches per game)is excessive bordering on child abuse. Please tell me the right level for my son. Thanks
quote:Originally posted by nolan ryan:
TPM - 1,470 pitches over 10 weeks (147 per wk)and 26 appearances (avg 56 pitches per game)is excessive bordering on child abuse. Please tell me the right level for my son. Thanks
Here's a guideline I found. If outdated someone please correct.
http://www.asmi.org/asmiweb/position_statement.htm
ML pitchers don't throw 147 pitches per week why would 15 year olds?
You are making justification by spreading it out, I am not sure that it works that way. It is very important what a pitcher does. An example would be let's suppose a pitcher did 8 innings with 100 pitches but in one inning he pitched 40, you don't average it as a good outing, you pay lots of attention to that one inning. Saying he struggled in one inning but made it through is subjective, in that one inning there could have been lots of stuff gone wrong later on, you ust don't know.
TR is right, it's all about common sense, common sense tells me that 14,15 year olds do not have to spend that much time on a pitching mound.
But if it does to you that is fine.
We were very careful with our pitcher, he had all the physical attributes your son has, I am not sure that has anything to do with it, as you will see all types of pitchers with issues, short, tall, stocky, left handed, right handed. I am not an expert I just see the heartache that pitchers go through when injury occurs at all levels. It's all about risk, and my suggestion is minimizing that while you have control over it. You all seem to think that as your sons get older there will be more restrictions, better control, not true. As your sons get older the stakes get higher. There still exists that HS or college coach who will push the limit as much as he can for a win. The better yoor son, the more he can be abused.
It's just a suggestion, you can do what you feel is best, but placing your son in that many games to get better isn't a good reason, your son has plenty of time, years in fact, to get to keep playing, the one thing that can end it...injury.
I am not a fan of weighted balls either, and beleive that injury is part due to genetics, but that doesn't mean because you have good ones, you can go overboard. Save those good genes for later when it counts!
As I said I have no dog in this fight, I only hope adn wish for your pitchers to be able to reach their dream, but sometimes that gets clouded by people who mean well, but just dont realize the pitfalls.
After a long summer on the road with 2nd son, I am finally catching up on this thread. I have to agree with TPM on the number of pitches thrown by 12-15 year olds.
My son actually played in the LLWS several years ago. Although he was a pitcher, he didn't pitch. I was the only parent who wouldn't allow my 12 year old to throw a curve ball. I knew after speaking to many knowledgable coaches that my son was not ready to throw multiple curve balls in a game. He was 5'6" tall then and is now 6'5". He threw his first curveball in a game at 15.
Were there other kids that passed him by in those three years? Of course. Those same kids have already had surgery. Did it make my son a late bloomer? Probably. Did he learn the proper techniques for throwing and proper methods of taking care of his arm? He did.
Most of all he had fun along the way while working very hard. He may not have gotten the coverage for pitching on TV, but he starts his freshman year in two weeks and will be pitching in college while so many of his friends have already blown out their arms.
My son actually played in the LLWS several years ago. Although he was a pitcher, he didn't pitch. I was the only parent who wouldn't allow my 12 year old to throw a curve ball. I knew after speaking to many knowledgable coaches that my son was not ready to throw multiple curve balls in a game. He was 5'6" tall then and is now 6'5". He threw his first curveball in a game at 15.
Were there other kids that passed him by in those three years? Of course. Those same kids have already had surgery. Did it make my son a late bloomer? Probably. Did he learn the proper techniques for throwing and proper methods of taking care of his arm? He did.
Most of all he had fun along the way while working very hard. He may not have gotten the coverage for pitching on TV, but he starts his freshman year in two weeks and will be pitching in college while so many of his friends have already blown out their arms.
quote:Originally posted by LauraZA:
After a long summer on the road with 2nd son, I am finally catching up on this thread. I have to agree with TPM on the number of pitches thrown by 12-15 year olds.
My son actually played in the LLWS several years ago. Although he was a pitcher, he didn't pitch. I was the only parent who wouldn't allow my 12 year old to throw a curve ball. I knew after speaking to many knowledgable coaches that my son was not ready to throw multiple curve balls in a game. He was 5'6" tall then and is now 6'5". He threw his first curveball in a game at 15.
Were there other kids that passed him by in those three years? Of course. Those same kids have already had surgery. Did it make my son a late bloomer? Probably. Did he learn the proper techniques for throwing and proper methods of taking care of his arm? He did.
Most of all he had fun along the way while working very hard. He may not have gotten the coverage for pitching on TV, but he starts his freshman year in two weeks and will be pitching in college while so many of his friends have already blown out their arms.
Well said Laura! I wish more parents would follow your path. Way too many saddle their boys with plans geared for adult athletes thinking more is better. Then the injuries inevitably come, so sad!
The running joke in our house is that we call it the Curveball World Series.
LauraZA,
I hear you loud and clear. We were also one of THOSE parents, and listened very closely to what his private piching coach was telling us a bunch or years ago. Best of luck to your son. He may want to bring a jacket, we hear it gets cold up there!
LauraZA,
I hear you loud and clear. We were also one of THOSE parents, and listened very closely to what his private piching coach was telling us a bunch or years ago. Best of luck to your son. He may want to bring a jacket, we hear it gets cold up there!
quote:Originally posted by fenwaysouth:
The running joke in our house is that we call it the Curveball World Series.
LauraZA,
I hear you loud and clear. We were also one of THOSE parents, and listened very closely to what his private piching coach was telling us a bunch or years ago. Best of luck to your son. He may want to bring a jacket, we hear it gets cold up there!
We call it that as well.
FWIW, there are many players that have given up that experience (LL) because their parents didn't want them throwing CBs at a young age. We actually left little league at 8 for that exact reason, and didn't return to until he was 13. He played Khoury where the league got to make their own rules, use of CB was prohibited among the young until later and then a certain percentage. Yes we eliminated coach pitch, and I still believe 8 is young to begin pitching, but at least there was the flexibility to have that option at that time.
Do they still have coach pitch?
seeing 12yr olds play on a 8yr old field is just ridiculous..grow up and play ball kids
quote:Originally posted by whits23:
seeing 12yr olds play on a 8yr old field is just ridiculous..grow up and play ball kids
It's almost as bad as watching grown men hit HRs over fences that are 320, 330... Almost.
I've seen more tears this year than I've ever seen. Poor defense... tears on the error, HR hit.... tears by the pitcher, hit by pitch.... tears from the hitter. Not trying to be overly negative of these young kids but, really?
GED10DaD
GED10DaD
quote:I've seen more tears this year than I've ever seen. Poor defense... tears on the error, HR hit.... tears by the pitcher, hit by pitch.... tears from the hitter. Not trying to be overly negative of these young kids but, really?
Don't you think that's due to the pressure they feel from the adults? Obviously, I do. A kid feels bad enough when he strikes out. But with ESPN televising it, and his parents in stands with war paint and noise makers, it compounds the feeling.
quote:Originally posted by Tx-Husker:quote:I've seen more tears this year than I've ever seen. Poor defense... tears on the error, HR hit.... tears by the pitcher, hit by pitch.... tears from the hitter. Not trying to be overly negative of these young kids but, really?
Don't you think that's due to the pressure they feel from the adults? Obviously, I do. A kid feels bad enough when he strikes out. But with ESPN televising it, and his parents in stands with war paint and noise makers, it compounds the feeling.
Responding to the earlier post regarding pitching coaches. I agree that just because little Johnny goes to a pitching coach 4 times per month does not mean he will be a great pitcher. I know many pitching coaches that agree with me! There are elements of genetics and desire that cannot be taught or overcome.
On the other hand - while there may be a few young pitchers that are able to succeed without any instruction (I actually got to know one this summer) they are not the rule. There are terrible pitching coaches and great pitching coaches - like any other occupation. I believe that some regular instruction (not saying every week) with a good pitching coach is beneficial to most young pitchers. Part of the reason my son has been relatively successful and relatively arm injury free is that he learned proper mechanics very early from a great young pitching coach.
Little league is a time for learning and enjoying the game -but any fun experienced because a 12 year old throws too many pitches or the wrong kind of curve ball may come at a very high price down the road. A good pitching coach will educate the parent and player on these matters as well.
On the other hand - while there may be a few young pitchers that are able to succeed without any instruction (I actually got to know one this summer) they are not the rule. There are terrible pitching coaches and great pitching coaches - like any other occupation. I believe that some regular instruction (not saying every week) with a good pitching coach is beneficial to most young pitchers. Part of the reason my son has been relatively successful and relatively arm injury free is that he learned proper mechanics very early from a great young pitching coach.
Little league is a time for learning and enjoying the game -but any fun experienced because a 12 year old throws too many pitches or the wrong kind of curve ball may come at a very high price down the road. A good pitching coach will educate the parent and player on these matters as well.
Hey Husk - I'm sure that is some of it, but it seems excessive this year. It's a shame, I quit watching.... GED10DaDquote:Originally posted by Tx-Husker:
Don't you think that's due to the pressure they feel from the adults?
quote:I quit watching
Me too, GED.
Wow, lots of LLWS bashing going on. Personally, I love it. Always have.
These young boys, still with a significant degree of innocence, get the opportunity to take their sport of passion to a very big stage. They play against increasingly challenging competition, bettering themselves week by week, game by game. For most, they are playing the game twice as long into the summer than they expected and for far greater stakes than they could have imagined. They struggle to learn the nuances of teamwork under adversity. The competition is as fair as can be. No stacked travel teams or privates.
They get to meet, hang out with, and play against teams from different areas of their region, then the far corners of the country and then even from all over the world. Innocent emotion, pure joy and, yes, tears. Young boys flash signs of playing ability well beyond their years. They meet their heroes. They sign autographs. They’re on TV! Come on, how cool is that to a 12 y.o. from Montana... or PA, or Aruba...
And, from everything I hear, they have a blast hanging out with each other when the games are not being played.
Are there problems (i.e. – curve balls, over-the-top parents, etc.)? Of course. Name a competitive environment at any age without problems.
When it ends, imagine the emotional jolt of the moment. Of course there are tears. Then imagine the great memories they will have forever. This is truly a special event.
I do think it could be even better. After the two bracket winners are determined (before the championship game), have a consolation round where the each of the eliminated US teams plays against one of the eliminated World teams. Put away the TV cameras. How cool would that be for the boys?
These young boys, still with a significant degree of innocence, get the opportunity to take their sport of passion to a very big stage. They play against increasingly challenging competition, bettering themselves week by week, game by game. For most, they are playing the game twice as long into the summer than they expected and for far greater stakes than they could have imagined. They struggle to learn the nuances of teamwork under adversity. The competition is as fair as can be. No stacked travel teams or privates.
They get to meet, hang out with, and play against teams from different areas of their region, then the far corners of the country and then even from all over the world. Innocent emotion, pure joy and, yes, tears. Young boys flash signs of playing ability well beyond their years. They meet their heroes. They sign autographs. They’re on TV! Come on, how cool is that to a 12 y.o. from Montana... or PA, or Aruba...
And, from everything I hear, they have a blast hanging out with each other when the games are not being played.
Are there problems (i.e. – curve balls, over-the-top parents, etc.)? Of course. Name a competitive environment at any age without problems.
When it ends, imagine the emotional jolt of the moment. Of course there are tears. Then imagine the great memories they will have forever. This is truly a special event.
I do think it could be even better. After the two bracket winners are determined (before the championship game), have a consolation round where the each of the eliminated US teams plays against one of the eliminated World teams. Put away the TV cameras. How cool would that be for the boys?
quote:his parents in stands with war paint and noise makers
LOL.Thats funny. I imagine it is intense for everyone.
Dont like the 13 year old 5'11 165 pound boys on the little fields. Just isnt a good thing.
I enjoy watching the games but the two things that make me turn the channel after an inning or so are the lunatic parents and the strike zones.
Sometimes these kids have no chance of hitting the ball when a pitch a foot off the plate is a strike. I guess you have to give 12 yo kids a little wider zone but some of the zones are ridiculous. After couple of batters, and I have to go back to watching Storage Wars or American Pickers.
And does a parent really have to jump up and down and scream for 2 minutes when junior hits a single with nobody on base. Tough to watch.
Sometimes these kids have no chance of hitting the ball when a pitch a foot off the plate is a strike. I guess you have to give 12 yo kids a little wider zone but some of the zones are ridiculous. After couple of batters, and I have to go back to watching Storage Wars or American Pickers.
And does a parent really have to jump up and down and scream for 2 minutes when junior hits a single with nobody on base. Tough to watch.
Mom's tend to be big fans. I've seen college 1st rounder's moms dance around like hair was on fire. Enthusiasm isn't limited to little league. Zach Greinke's dad used to post here. I saw him on TV at Zach's first big league game. He could have been Baker Act'ed on the spot.
I did see a Warner Robbins dad positioning the defense....from the 12th row, like directing fighter traffic on the USS John F Kennedy. Oh, little Lafayette wins again.
I did see a Warner Robbins dad positioning the defense....from the 12th row, like directing fighter traffic on the USS John F Kennedy. Oh, little Lafayette wins again.
quote:Originally posted by Dad04:
I did see a Warner Robbins dad positioning the defense....from the 12th row, like directing fighter traffic on the USS John F Kennedy.
haha, that reminded me that did this in a T-Ball tourney once - as a coach in the dugout though. We had signs for the outfielders so we didn't have to scream and yell.
My son's LL coach drank screwdrivers during Saturday morning games...in the dugout. While LL is far from perfect, it's a good place to start and a good place to be from, imo.
TPM this guys sounds like I used..... Nolan, I finally listened to people on this board and my boys are better off for it. These pitch numbers are crazy crazy crazy....everyone thinks that being the stud 14-15 year old makes you a future draft pick.
Nolan, my 3rd boy is out for 6 months with a shoulder injury. I think back last spring watching him pitch and how great it was....I don't have that now....and more importantly, he does not have that now.....and may not ba able to pitch for a while, I have 2 older sons they are good pitchers, college level talent, they dominated at 14-15 and other than a few blow hards and me, the guys that matter didn't really care they see hundreds of them.... don't ruin his arm before it really matters.
Nolan, I finally listened to people on this board and my boys are better off for it. These pitch numbers are crazy crazy crazy....everyone thinks that being the stud 14-15 year old makes you a future draft pick. Nolan, my 3rd boy is out for 6 months with a shoulder injury. I think back last spring watching him pitch and how great it was....I don't have that now....and more importantly, he does not have that now.....and may not ba able to pitch for a while, I have 2 older sons they are good pitchers, college level talent, they dominated at 14-15 and other than a few blow hards and me, the guys that matter didn't really care they see hundreds of them.... don't ruin his arm before it really matters.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:quote:Originally posted by nolan ryan:
I thought I'd get a couple "shame on you's". I know it doesn't sound great but like I said, every kid is different and there is no mathematical formula you can apply to all kids. Body types and deliveries are much different. My son has long arms, big hands, and broad shoulders. His delivery is long, smooth, and effortless. We've all seen the kids, we have some on our team, that stress, strain, and grind to throw every pitch as hard as they can - looks like their arm may fly off at any minute - or they just may p**p their pants! Logic tells me that my son should be able to throw many more pitches than the kid putting way more stress on their elbow and shoulder.
He took July off other than some catch here and there. He'll play some fall ball, maybe 3-4 tournaments and a few practices.
Once he gets into HS and showcase ball next year, the coaches will likely be far more limited on pitch counts/innings.
You asked us for thoughts, I gave mine, you can justify all you want, but with the innings and pitch counts you have given us, that is overuse. If you think that your son will avoid issues because of his delivery, or his statue you are kidding yourself. You think as he gets older they will cut back, no that is the time when the innings and pitch counts increase, that is the IMPORTANT time.
I have given my stance on the frequent use of the curveball at a young age, my opinion is no one here would like to admit their sons injury was caused by anything other than it "just happened". Pitching is risk vs reward, you all as parents can control it when your kids are young after that it's out of your hands. What are you gonna do, call up the college coach and tell him your son pitched too much the day before? Your time is now, use it wisely.
What you dads tend to not realize is that your sons can sail through middle school and high school, maybe college, maybe drafted. Just ask a minor league first rounder how he feels that he has major shoulder issues and removed from the 40 man and not placed back on because everyone knows that shoulders rarely heel. Ask all of those guys who are released even after TJS because the organization can't wait another year while you find your control. Just ask the college starter who is supposed to be a first round pick (actually first of 5) and blows out his UCL (HS overload and multo sport), and is not drafted, the following year later because he can't find his control. He is playing in ML but he lost out of LOTS of money due to overuse before he got to college. Just ask the HS starter who has every major D1 after him and suddenly he develops shoulder issues (lose of velo). Most of those programs suddenly disappear.
Because you are not seeing it now, doesn't mean it's not possible. Again, you all sound like a dad that bragged how great his son's performance was all through growing up and HS and got to college and couldn't pitch more than an inning at a time. Shoulder issues.
You do what you want, it's only you guys who have to get up in the morning and look at yourself in the mirror everyday, enjoy as much as you can now.
Talking to a trainer from a big program the other day, can't beleive what issues pitchers come with. You guys have no clue, really you don't. You want to argue, fine, but I can't see hoe parents of 14,15 year olds can see the future, unless you have a crystal ball.
I don't have a dog in this fight anymore, luckily my player has escaped major issues, but non the less he has had issues that have set him back, maybe even prevented him from someday reaching the top, even WITH minor stuff. Has he gone further than many, yes, but that was not the original intention. You see for every pitcher that goes down, there is another one right behind you, HS, college and pro.
I will say that any bad stuff I had to sit through by watching was well worth it to see the second baseman from Japan play. That little kid was a joy to watch play defense.
I must be bad luck. Saw both games where the pitcher dropped clutching his elbow and now just saw the SA ss get clobbered by a grounder to the face.
The talent is talking about how hard they are hitting - the LL officials moved the fence back, but didn't increase the field size. Wonder why one and not the other.
btw, despite the issues - I love watching. (except last week my son said it was too bad we wouldn't be watching the series together this year. boo hoo just had to go to school.)
The talent is talking about how hard they are hitting - the LL officials moved the fence back, but didn't increase the field size. Wonder why one and not the other.
btw, despite the issues - I love watching. (except last week my son said it was too bad we wouldn't be watching the series together this year. boo hoo just had to go to school.)
quote:Originally posted by Dad04:
My son's LL coach drank screwdrivers during Saturday morning games...in the dugout.
A long, long time ago, my coach picked me up for LL practice. I can still hear myself saying, "Smells like my dad's beer in here."
That Kentucky Pennsylvania game was really good.The double that was ruled foul really changed that game.Pennysylvania had so many opportunities to score.Thought some of the base running decisions were not the best.But what do I know.When there was the base hit that first basemen bobbled, runnner came home, thrown out at plate for first out.If he stays at third there are runners on 1st and third with no outs.Next guy got a base hit.Bummer, as overall it was a good game.The pitcher for kentucky 6'0 (crazy),but boy he pitched well.
Apologize if this has been vilified already, but the thing that drives me nuts are the 65mph fastballs "that are like 90mph in MLB".
Please...
Does that also mean that the 25mph front toss pitches from 15' are like 100mph fastballs? Does that mean a ball projected from a cannon 600' away at 900mph is just as easy to hit as a 90mph fastball in MLB?
I don't think so, but that's just me...
Please...
Does that also mean that the 25mph front toss pitches from 15' are like 100mph fastballs? Does that mean a ball projected from a cannon 600' away at 900mph is just as easy to hit as a 90mph fastball in MLB?
I don't think so, but that's just me...
The Kentucky Pennyslvania game had and estimated crowd of over 40,000. Wow what a stage for your first LLWS game - even though some of these kids are huge for their age - they are still only 13, and to play in front of a crowd like that and do well is pretty cool for them!
is it 60ft bases, no lead offs, no straight steals, no drop 3rd strikes for 12-13 year olds???
quote:Originally posted by JMoff:
Apologize if this has been vilified already, but the thing that drives me nuts are the 65mph fastballs "that are like 90mph in MLB".
I don't think so, but that's just me...
It would be fun to watch you (or me) try to hit a 75 mph Hagen Danner pitch from 46 feet away.
quote:Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
It would be fun to watch you (or me) try to hit a 75 mph Hagen Danner pitch from 46 feet away.
I'd have just as much chance of hitting the 900mph from 600' and only slightly better chance of hitting the 25mph from 15'.
I'm not saying these kids aren't good, I'm just saying the faster it moves the harder it is to hit.
.
Serve it up from 46 feet or two feet, curve, slider, fastball, or change up...I can hit it!
.
- "It would be fun to watch you (or me) try to hit a 75 mph Hagen Danner pitch from 46 feet away."
Serve it up from 46 feet or two feet, curve, slider, fastball, or change up...I can hit it!
.
quote:Originally posted by fillsfan:
I enjoy watching the games but the two things that make me turn the channel after an inning or so are the lunatic parents and the strike zones.
Sometimes these kids have no chance of hitting the ball when a pitch a foot off the plate is a strike. I guess you have to give 12 yo kids a little wider zone but some of the zones are ridiculous. After couple of batters, and I have to go back to watching Storage Wars or American Pickers.
And does a parent really have to jump up and down and scream for 2 minutes when junior hits a single with nobody on base. Tough to watch.
I have to admit...some of the worst umpiring I've seen this year. LL needs to put performance above politics when assigning umpires to the WS.
quote:Originally posted by Jimmy03:
I have to admit...some of the worst umpiring I've seen this year. LL needs to put performance above politics when assigning umpires to the WS.
I'll be the one to say it.
LL needs to allow its umpires to be paid. (Yes, I know umpires can be paid, but LL's selection criteria for regionals and WS...)
It is the same argument I make when it comes to PBUC/MLB. If you want the best at the top, then you need to make it so your pool of candidates is the biggest possible at the bottom. The best umpires that could otherwise do LL are elsewhere, since there is a significant personal investment in being a competent umpire, and expecting remuneration is not out of line.
I was 17 years old, doing a LL state tournament, with $800 invested in my equipment, uniforms, training, etc. I chose to have those tools. I chose to go to advanced clinics. I would not have been able to do it had my local league not given me $20 a game and as many games as necessary. They didn't expect me to do that with my game fees, but I loved doing it and wanted to get better so that I could do it the best I could. By LL's logic, that makes me inferior, ironically; the umpires and leagues that foster the sense of mutual commitment were the ones that were (and still are) in the wrong.
LL is correct when it says that paying umpires does not guarantee a better job. Seeing through that (technically correct) statment is the one thing LL doesn't want people to realize when it comes to umpires: paying umpires improves the chances that there is someone there who is competent.
quote:Originally posted by Jimmy03:quote:Originally posted by fillsfan:
I enjoy watching the games but the two things that make me turn the channel after an inning or so are the lunatic parents and the strike zones.
Sometimes these kids have no chance of hitting the ball when a pitch a foot off the plate is a strike. I guess you have to give 12 yo kids a little wider zone but some of the zones are ridiculous. After couple of batters, and I have to go back to watching Storage Wars or American Pickers.
And does a parent really have to jump up and down and scream for 2 minutes when junior hits a single with nobody on base. Tough to watch.
I have to admit...some of the worst umpiring I've seen this year. LL needs to put performance above politics when assigning umpires to the WS.
Pretty hard to see where the ball hits the zone from the camera's perspective. Same in a major league game. Interesting when they superimpose the zone box and what looked like a strike to the viewer was actually a ball when it crossed the plate. And I don't believe that paying guys comes close to getting umpires to do it for the honor of the experience. Are there mistakes made, far and few between, but overall they are calling a pretty good series. I've seen worse in college and especially in HS.
Wow. I don't see the problem with parents at this event whooping it up for their kids and team. I'm sure for this venue it's even encouraged. These are little guys playing on ESPN and network TV for crying out loud. It's not your local tournament at the LL fields down the street. This is a big deal and a rare event for parents and kids. If I was there I'd be full throttle too. This is a week or more of celebrating youth baseball nationwide and who is going to sit in the stands on their thumbs when there kid gets a hit in any situation with millions watching. Have to say, when the LLWS is running I don't watch MLB. Very refreshing.
quote:Originally posted by WinBuc44:
And I don't believe that paying guys comes close to getting umpires to do it for the honor of the experience.
There are plenty who would do it for free, but LL forbids any umpire who gets paid for any LL game to work Regionals or LLWS. They are not getting the best they can because of that short-sighted policy.
CAn WE SAY CHILLD Abuse
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
CAn WE SAY CHIlD Abuse
Really? The game I am watching between Japan and Mexico looks like a bunch of kids having a great time. What planet do you live on?
quote:Originally posted by WinBuc44:
Pretty hard to see where the ball hits the zone from the camera's perspective. Same in a major league game. Interesting when they superimpose the zone box and what looked like a strike to the viewer was actually a ball when it crossed the plate. And I don't believe that paying guys comes close to getting umpires to do it for the honor of the experience. Are there mistakes made, far and few between, but overall they are calling a pretty good series. I've seen worse in college and especially in HS.
Thank God you aren't an umpire evaluator. Far and few between? In some games, every inning. Balls bouncing before being gloved by the catcher being called strikes...see that much in the CWS?
Base umpires making calls that belong to other umpires AND getting them wrong...
Horrible mechanics by Plate Umpires...stances that won't allow views of outside or low pitches...PU's calling the pitch before it hits the glove.
This is one of the worst years in LLWS umpiring since 2005. And it's a shame. It had been getting better.
Japan vs Mexico. Hell of a baseball game. Had everything. Absolutely great baseball.
quote:Originally posted by Jimmy03:quote:Originally posted by WinBuc44:
Pretty hard to see where the ball hits the zone from the camera's perspective. Same in a major league game. Interesting when they superimpose the zone box and what looked like a strike to the viewer was actually a ball when it crossed the plate. And I don't believe that paying guys comes close to getting umpires to do it for the honor of the experience. Are there mistakes made, far and few between, but overall they are calling a pretty good series. I've seen worse in college and especially in HS.
Thank God you aren't an umpire evaluator. Far and few between? In some games, every inning. Balls bouncing before being gloved by the catcher being called strikes...see that much in the CWS?
Base umpires making calls that belong to other umpires AND getting them wrong...
Horrible mechanics by Plate Umpires...stances that won't allow views of outside or low pitches...PU's calling the pitch before it hits the glove.
This is one of the worst years in LLWS umpiring since 2005. And it's a shame. It had been getting better.
Jimmy...Probably won't hurt LL or anyone else's feelings if you watched another channel. As for me, I've been watching some pretty good 12 year old baseball. Sorry it's not up to MLB or CWS or your standards but good baseball non the less.
quote:Originally posted by Matt13:
LL needs to allow its umpires to be paid. (Yes, I know umpires can be paid, but LL's selection criteria for regionals and WS...)
How do umpires get selected? Is it a lottery? Letter from congressman? Waiting list? Just show up with your clicker?
quote:Originally posted by WinBuc44:
Jimmy...Probably won't hurt LL or anyone else's feelings if you watched another channel. As for me, I've been watching some pretty good 12 year old baseball. Sorry it's not up to MLB or CWS or your standards but good baseball non the less.
Who said anything about the players? Trying putting words in your own mouth.
I've enjoyed the heck out watching the kids play. It's just a shame that the umpiring, at times, is not up to their calibre.
quote:How do umpires get selected? Is it a lottery? Letter from congressman? Waiting list? Just show up with your clicker?
Jimmy03 picks them.
Seriously, I tuned in and caught the Japan/Mexico game...GREAT game. Those kids can play. The double play by Mexico in the top of the 6th was incredible.