Matching the plane?????

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MLB hitters don't swing on a plane that matches the pitch......They simply rotate to the ball and the bat meets the ball at a certain point in space.....

The body position will dictate plane of swing at contact and swingplane is not always the exact same.

If the plane of swing were the same all the time, many many hitters would be in deep trouble , especially bad ball hitters. :>

Think what Blue is trying to say here is the body gets bat into hitting position and not the plane of ball gets body in hitting position????

Is this what you are saying Bluedog? BTW, good morning sir and apologize for not being here last night.

Shep

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Their posture dictates their swing plane, not the pitch plane (if there is such a thing, which I doubt).....

Agree Agree Agree !!!

Preferrably Power "V" type bodyposture and certainly "not" straight up.

Sandman gave us a beautiful example of slight bend in waist. I will post it here too...hang on a minute...next reply box>

Best example I've seen here on this site here by the "Sandman"

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And, swinging the bat through the hitting zone as long as possible is nonsense, too.....

Bluedog, come on now brother !!!!

This is taught to correct recoil for hitters who are not using body correctly, you know that sir.

This over-exxageration of follow-through is used as a step to get hitter back on track in correcting swing mechanics.

When using this in instruction it doesn't mean "pose" for the camera at the top in follow-through but more, (make sure bat doesn't recoil, but on the otherhand has nice finish in follow-through.)

Shep

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And, swinging the bat through the hitting zone as long as possible is nonsense, too.....

can mean get off your back side...don't collapse your back side.

could be about weight transfer

Could mean good lead arm extension and late barrel release for somebody releasing the bat head at their belly button.

Can be a good cue. Doesn't mean it happens.

Yeager says the lead leg steers great players to be ball concerning plane

Bluedog, are you saying that mentally, that is not what they are doing? I can think of one ML player that mentioned this at a clinic. Although I agree that physically it isn't what happens since the ball is on such a drastic downward plane, I do think that mentally, that is the approach some take.

I agree that body/spine angle is one primary key to getting the bat to the correct point of contact.

Next, you would then disagree with hitting statements many coaches use like "short to it and long through it."

Coach, spine angle (posture) is the only way MLB hitters determine the swing plane.....

"Short to it, long through it" is a total fabrication.....MLB hitters swing the bat to a point in space where they believe the ball to be by the time they get the bat around....They release all the batspeed they possibly can at ball contact.....Only thing left is some swing momentum.....

Any hitter trying to be long through the ball (I have a problem even saying that) is losing efficiency in a big way.....They max their batspeed after the ball is hit, waste their batspeed, and can't transfer swing momentum properly.....

MLB hitters do not hit through the ball....They hit to the ball......They have alot of tension in their body and their hands go soft at ball contact......

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They max their batspeed after the ball is hit, waste their batspeed, and can't transfer swing momentum properly.....

Agree that batspeed should be at peek velocity at contact not after contact Blue but how can you say hands go completely soft at contact?
This would indicate strong possibility of recoil and I know you don't believe in recoil brother because we have had that discussion here before. Exactly what do you mean about the soft hands comment anyway? peace

"A plane is a surface such that, given any two points on the surface, the surface also contains the straight line that passes through the two points."

Impossible to swing on the plane of the pitch as a pitch doesn't have a plane......

MLB hitters use their posture (spine angle) to set the swing plane according to where they perceive the ball to be where they want to hit it.......Has nothing to do with plane of the pitch....

What plane does a hitter mentally picture when the pitch is a 12 to 6 curveball?.....How bout sliders?....How bout a fastball riding in or out?.....What is the plane of these supposed to look like?

Agree Agree and Agree Bluedog

The spine angle does have to change and hopefully not to the point of the bat decelerating like in offspeed reaction recovery adjustment. peace

Well, Shep the hands go soft actually a nanosecond after ball contact....That did need to be clarified and who else but you to do just that......

Once the ball is hit, nothing can cause recoil.......

An example of that deceleration would be reaching for an outside slider too far away from body causing spine-angle to collapse. peace

Great example of posture setting swing plane....

http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/dunn_adam1.mpeg

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Once the ball is hit, nothing can cause recoil.......

Appreciate the nanosecond comment...lol

Think I do see your point about soft after contact with loosey goosey approach in rag arms fashion which frees up upperhalve and promotes batspeed with the lowerhalve and center providing the real powersource. Correct Blue?
Great Sunday school lesson by-the-way. peace

Adam Dunn does decelerate on that off-speed outside pitch in clip. Was it HR ? peace

What I mean is batspeed deceleration at contact but do also see your very valid point about spine angle tilt in body posture at contact as well. peace

Bluedog

Want you to know that I am putting this Sunday hitting lesson before the establishment right now because I am supposed to be at Spring Training Game at 1:00 so if I stop posting in a minute it will be because I'm running out the door....peace bro

Bluedog, when I post questions on most of this stuff, I hope you understand that for the most part, I agree. I'm just trying to then get you to explain. Yes, I also agree with spine angle. I think that video really demonstrates this.

Isn't this another example of how people percieve how they do things verses what they really do?

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Bluedog, when I post questions on most of this stuff, I hope you understand that for the most part, I agree.

Coach, I do......

Blue CoachB25 and others

Got to go for now. peace out, shep

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Isn't this another example of how people percieve how they do things verses what they really do?

Coach, age old problem in baseball.....Suppose it will always be that way with most.....Really gets in the way of learning....

HOLY SCRAP AGAIN!

there is no plane of a pitch??? umm... that is the line the ball is traveling from release of pitcher's hand to catchers mit...

and posture IS dictated by the BATTER.. he matches planes by hinging on back leg (slightly sitting on back leg) which changes plane of swing, as well as where the front elbow is slotted (higher on lower pitches, lower on higher pitches).

and anyone who thinks MLB player hit just TO the ball and not trying to hit THROUGH it is absurd. That is like saying Mike Tyson would box and hit to contact and not ttry and hit through opponents head or body... in boxing there are contatc punches (hitting to body) and knockout punches (hitting through body)... now maybe people interpret things differently... but the concept is the same as don't run TO 1st baseb, run through 1st base.. mentally saying don't give up on swing once contact is made... continue to hit through the baseball...

yes/ no?

Must admit, I don't understand how saying "hit through the ball" could possibly be a bad thing.

This is one of those things I was talking about in different thread. Have heard a few very high level hitting people use the words "hit through the ball".

So, Diablo you are saying a pitch does have a plane and hitters should swing on that plane?........Could you explain what the plane of a 12 to 6 curveball looks like?....And, the plane of a fastball riding out on a hitter?

And, does this hitter sit on his back leg?....

http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/Chipper01.mpeg

How about this one?...

http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/thomas_frank.mpeg

Diablo, do you really believe you see counter-rotation in this hitter?.....

http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/mac03.mpeg

BLUEDOG. OUTSTANDING! yes, as everyone should be able to see in the Chipper Jones clip, (he is a stride guy).. once his front foot lands (notice the balance, because all a stride does is break inertia, and re-establish the balance point) [heel off the ground], he then drops the front heel to initiate the swing (starts the hips opening by the two lower-leg bones locking into femur, locking into hip, causing the opening) back elbow tucks nicely allowing front elbow to start slightly working up... and if you focus on his back leg, notice it starts to hinge right about the time his hands get flat (in early approach phase) this allows him to get a slight body lean (so hands can work inside) and is also an equal and opposite effect of his hands and arms being catapulted forward in his swing by the torque developed in his body... and the best thing about your pic (besides being in slo-mo) is that the clip is stopped as Chipper has gone just beyond the power V and still has his good body lean and IS SITTING ON HIS BACK LEG... if you can see that clearly when the clip stops, something is wrong.

p.s. notice his back foot get jerked off the ground as his heel is dropped - NO BUG SQUISHING GUYS!

and if you are able to stop the clip right as heel touches ground, notice where his arms/shoulders are still... yep, closed completely (chin is almost literally on shoulder)- that is TORQUE (two forces working in opposite directions on an object).

i didn't like the F. Thomas clip as much because it is real short and at game speed... but if you can stop it just after contact, you can see him sit on his back leg - remember, this sitting, or body lean is just for a split scond - obviously because the swing happens so fast... but it has to happen to not only to help match planes, but to let hands work inside ball.

and the Big Mac clip, did not have full mechanics in it, it was just from launch on.. so it was hard to tell much... but if you think that for a second that a player does not "load, or counter rotate - or whatever you want to call it, in his swing, you are being silly. In sport, everything moves backwards before it goes forwards... it is a physiology thing... a tennis player serving, racket goes back... boxer knocking someone out, hand goes back, pitcher pitching, hand goes back, etc, etc, etc...

next??

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and the best thing about your pic (besides being in slo-mo) is that the clip is stopped as Chipper has gone just beyond the power V and still has his good body lean and IS SITTING ON HIS BACK LEG...

His rear foot is in the air at ball contact......If you think someone can sit on their back leg while their back foot is off the ground, you are one brainwashed piece of work....

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.. but if you can stop it just after contact, you can see him sit on his back leg -

After contact?...While ago you said MLB hitters determine swing plane by sitting on their back leg......So, now you're saying MLB hitters determine swing plane after contact.....You don't think that's a bit too late?....

Are these hitters sitting on their back leg?

http://www.hitting-mechanics.org/HMOFTP/vlad_tejada_arod_UP.gif

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and the Big Mac clip, did not have full mechanics in it, it was just from launch on.. so it was hard to tell much...

Mac is striding in the clip.....You think hitters reach the launch before they stride?.......That clip is very clear that Mac doesn't counter-rotate his shoulders.....Not even a little......

There must be counter-rotation to create torque......And, great hitters do neither.....

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Originally posted by Diablo con Huevos:
BLUEDOG. OUTSTANDING! yes, as everyone should be able to see in the Chipper Jones clip, (he is a stride guy).. once his front foot lands (notice the balance, because all a stride does is break inertia, and re-establish the balance point) [heel off the ground], he then drops the front heel to initiate the swing (starts the hips opening by the two lower-leg bones locking into femur, locking into hip, causing the opening)...

Nothing could be further from the truth.

swing and axe its all in there. anybody wanna talk about leverage and physics.....meet a baseball it will go.....great talk though guys

Diablo con Huevos, Who is your hitting mentor?

blue dog-

just coming to notice as i read through alot of your responses on this web site... and i notice that prertty much all you do is tell people they are wrong, but don't explain what to be correct - or how to get there, which is the essence of teaching/coaching. do you have a philosophy? can you break it down/explain it?

if that is how you teach (by just telling people they are wrong) then at least you are only teaching hitters and not in our public schools.

i almost forgot (everyone) if you want to see another great clip of a pure rotational hitter... SHEP posted one on page 4 of the STANDING UP STRAIGHT thread of Lee...
notice the hinge in back knee as his swing begins, and as he sits on back leg.. as swing is finishing up... so he can help match planes and get hands inside of baseball... great clip SHEP.

not to beat a dead dog, but does anyone notice if Eric Chavez has got a good body lean, as his back knee has hinged, as he is going to sit on his back leg on the Hudgens DVD at the top of this page?

Diablo, I am with you, MEH rocks. OPS is king. It is interesting to hear the opinion of two people looking at the same thing and seeing different things. Like looking at a coin one sees heads the other sees tails, but they are looking at the same coin.

IP and Bluedog...Please expain what you object to in the technique Diablo describes. His description on a the new thread is exactly what my kids instructor is teaching and what I now teach my 11-12's. What is the actual (not theory) difference. I understand that hitting thru the ball is a phrase you hate. But are you teaching to stay completely connected throughout the swing (see Pete Rose, as opposed to Chipper Jones video). Our BI calls this hook barrel and works hard to eliminate. I see most MLB hitters getting extension after contact (towards the pitcher). Do you??

I'd like to completeley understand the swing you advocate. Is it too complicated to explain in a couple of paragraphs? Or is it a secret that only $500 to Englishbey unlocks.

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Originally posted by BlueDog:
Coach, spine angle (posture) is the only way MLB hitters determine the swing plane..... ...

MLB hitters do not hit through the ball....They hit to the ball.....

... If the plane of the swing is similar to the plane of the pitch and you have in mind to generate speed thru the "hitting zone" doesn't this give you a better chance of hitting the ball hard if your timing is not absolutely perfect on every pitch?

Rudy Jaramillo.

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Originally posted by Diablo con Huevos:
i almost forgot (everyone) if you want to see another great clip of a pure rotational hitter... SHEP posted one on page 4 of the STANDING UP STRAIGHT thread of Lee...
notice the hinge in back knee as his swing begins, and as he sits on back leg.. as swing is finishing up... so he can help match planes and get hands inside of baseball... great clip SHEP.

You have to be blind or religious to believe this.