MLB or College?

quote:

Originally posted by njbb:
What happened to the kid who passed up 2.5? is he in college now?
Maybe he just wasn't ready for life in the minors? Maybe he just wanted the college baseball experience?

There have been players who took the money, hated the life style and left pro ball. They lose the money and the chance to play college ball.


There is more to consider than money

He is at Vanderbilt. He is from Massachusetts. Drafted in round 1 by Toronto

quote:

Originally posted by Mark B:

quote:

Originally posted by njbb:
What happened to the kid who passed up 2.5? is he in college now?
Maybe he just wasn't ready for life in the minors? Maybe he just wanted the college baseball experience?

There have been players who took the money, hated the life style and left pro ball. They lose the money and the chance to play college ball.


There is more to consider than money

He is at Vanderbilt. He is from Massachusetts. Drafted in round 1 by Toronto

I didn't want to make the kid so recognizable his name could be identified since I questioned his decision in public. It's not fair to the kid to be outed. I PM'ed njbb who it is. We try to have discussion and debate on this board without outing minors.

My son's dream is to get drafted.

He would take any draft pick over playing in college, and I would support his decision.

Give him a can of Coke, a candy bar and a fair chance to prove himself and he'll be the first one to sign!

There are also cases of guys turning down money out of HS, improving their stock in college, and doing better out of college. Examples from 2011 include Danny Hultzen and Gerritt Cole.

Again, it's a tough decision, but the answer to the question depends on each individual guy. Also, there are risks no matter which way you go, so unless you have a crystal ball, there's no way to guarantee you made the "right" choice until it's all over and done with.

dw8mann,
I've known a few like that. Neither was a great student in their cases. That may not apply to your son. One of them was a third rounder and he's doing fairly well. He would have gone for free. The other was a 40th or later rounder who got a bus ticket. He's out of the game. One kid from my son's JC team was signed by Cleveland as an undrafted free agent and turned down a full ride from a school in Colorado. He had a good season in rookie ball then was injured and released the next season.

quote:

Originally posted by dw8man:
He would take any draft pick over playing in college, and I would support his decision.

He only says that because he doesn't know any better. College ball on any level is 100% better than the lowest beginner level of milb.

As discussed much depends on many things, one being if your son is a very early pick vs a very late pick.

Never indicate to a scout what you have indicated here.

Most very low HS draft picks end up in complex ball. That's all about getting up at 6am to be ready to play a game (which no one comes to) at 11, which is not played at a stadium with people watching, but on the practice field (think back fields at spring training complexes. Done by 2 or 3 and the whole day in front of him. Maybe, depending on whether a team has an A rookie or not, that's where he will spend his first season.
Be careful what you wish for.

Some history:

Several years ago - I was in attendance at a Perfect Game event in Florida and was approached by Mr.Jerry Ford.

He very politely introduced himself and then proceeded to compliment me on my sunflower seed spitting abilities. No less than 10 minutes into the conversation - he asked me if I would be interested in becoming the Perfect Game Official Seed Spitting representative.

The benefits were many - but the bottom line was the amount of money that was on the table.

He offered me 2.87 million, an unlimited supply of seeds and free dental insurance for life.

At that time- I thought I could do better - as I was already in discussions with David's. So I declined the offer.

One week later I visited David's headquarters to begin negotiations. They offered me the chance to exit their property and be free from arrest and prosecution - but only if I was able to elude their security personnel and remove myself from their premises in 2 minutes or less. Of course - I accepted their offer - ran real fast - and was able to get out of there without incident.

The next day I went back to Mr. Ford and told him I was ready to accept his offer. He - once again - was very polite. However he stated that he had changed his mind and now had a revised offer for me.

The offer was a bag of donuts and 1 beer.

Here is the moral of the story:

If someone offers you $2.5 million or more for something that is not illegal and which presents no moral conflicts - take the dough.

Sometimes - you only get one shot at it.

Just ask Matt Harrington if he should have taken the 4.5 million he turned down the first of six times he was drafted. When last heard of, he was stocking shelves in a Target while trying to make a comeback in Indy ball. Of course each time he was drafted, it was for substantially less than the time before.

We may be the wrong people to decide if one should take the money or go to college since many of our regular poster's ideas of success are skewed towards a college education. A couple of years ago I read where there were only 28 major leaguers playing that year who had a four year college degree, with one example being Curtis Granderson. I would guess that there is not one foreign ML player that has a college degree as well as no high school draftees. Some may get an education later. So in truth it is extremely hard and in the minority to be able to do both things before a ML career is over.

quote:

We may be the wrong people to decide if one should take the money or go to college since many of our regular poster's ideas of success are skewed towards a college education.

I've always been education first. But if my son turned down 2.5M I'd tell him he's too stupid to go to college.

(just my personal opinion)

Excluding those born with a silver spoon and $2,5M is no big deal, I don't know how an 18 yr old kid can turn down that kind of loot since it isn't every day someone gets to start out in life as a millionaire and can go back to school any time after their career. And since a $2.5M signing bonus is a large investment in an umnproven talent, but a bonus baby nonetheless, it would stand to reason a team is going to give a player more chances to succeed to make it to the majors, that's more the reason to take that kind of loot out of HS.

One would hope, the kid has parents who see their kids fortune as something they should help him protect and invest so that he at least he still has his loot opposed to leaching off his millions and blowing the loot.

This conversation has gone way off track from the original question.

For example, Harrington is irrelevant to this conversation because his choice was not between pro and college. Once he had an agent, his choice was take the best deal he could get or leave it. He left it . . . again and again and again.

For another example, all this talk of leaving million dollar bonuses on the table borders on the ridiculous. There are one or two or three players a year who do this. In nearly every case, they are well advised, and they make informed decisions knowing the risks and rewards--and more important, they have put a value on what they would be giving up. If you're in the category of player that needs to worry about this contingency, you have better sources of advice than public discussion boards.

For everyone else, the hard facts are that 1) the million dollar bonuses only go to about 50 players per year, and they taper off quickly from there; 2) your bonus is the only chance you have to make real money in baseball unless you make it to the majors, which becomes less likely with every round that passes before your name is called; 3) comparatively few signees take full advantage of the MLB scholarship program either because they weren't offered it in the first place, its value eroded, or life intruded and prevented them from going back to school; and 4) each year, a new group of signees comes in to force out everyone from your draft who isn't advancing fast enough.

If your goal is to keep playing as long as you can, going to college is almost always your best bet.

If your goal is to give baseball your best shot while keeping your non-baseball life on track, going to college is almost always your best bet.

Obviously, this assumes you have a viable college option. If not, go ahead and sign for the candy bar and the coke (though that's not the kind of nutrition that will get you where you want to go).

Finally, if we're going to compare anecdotes, for every one player who turned down big bucks out of high school and lived to regret it, I'd bet our readers could find ten guys who signed out of high school and were out of baseball with negligible savings or MLB scholarship money available before their college eligibility would have ended.

MLB or College? No its College or MILB. Its an individual decision that varies greatly from one kid to the next. Each situation is different. If the decision was indeed MLB or College that would be an entirely different scenario.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

quote:

Originally posted by dw8man:
He would take any draft pick over playing in college, and I would support his decision.

He only says that because he doesn't know any better. College ball on any level is 100% better than the lowest beginner level of milb.

As discussed much depends on many things, one being if your son is a very early pick vs a very late pick.

Never indicate to a scout what you have indicated here.

TPM,

Your experience and advice are always greatly appreciated especially on this topic.

I don't know if I have the capabilities to express in writing his mindset but there is a big difference in his eyes between playing in college and getting a chance to go pro. His is a current JUCO player and does really enjoy it. However, he has stated two goals: 1. get drafted 2. have the oportunity to play at a 4 year school on scholarship. His desire and mindset is he would rather get a shot to play pro. He knows of the hardships and odds but, for him, just getting the shot matters.

He knows he'll always will have the oppurtuinty to get his college degree even it if takes a bit longer then "normal", or even if it is after a time of service to his country (which he considers option 3 if 1 and 2 don't work out above). He also realizes if he is considered draftable (which I am not saying he is) it will only be for a short time so he would want to give it a try.

Now, for a reality check, as far as I know, he is not on anyone's radar so we are talking REALLY hypothetical. If he is ever presented with a real chance to have to deside between colleage or draft, things could change and all the information provided here will come into play.

Now, the advice about not saying what I said in my first post to a scout is very true and he wouldn't even consider doing that. While the money would be important to him and he would do his best to get as much as he feels he could, the chance for him would mean the most.

I hope that doesn't sound to naive but when answering the question "college or MLB", he wouldn't hesitate to say MLB.

Swampboy,

You missed the whole point of my mention of Matt Harrington. He had the same choice of everyone else out of high school--college or the minor leagues, but because he figured to be one of the top picks he threw any thoughts of college aside. Due to bad advice, maybe some greed on the part of his parents and agent he refused to sign for an amount, that was life changing money by anyone's standards. Therefore when someone makes the original poster's choice of decisions, they need to follow it through. While I agree he is a rare case, you can bet there have been numerous wrong decisions made in each direction. The parameters of this discussion is not limited as far as I know only to those whose are signing for minimal amounts.

All in all this discussion is like a lot of those on this forum--there is no one right answer. It's up to the individual and their particular circumstances. But just for fun we can discuss it all we want.

3-bagger,
Sorry if I misunderstood. If your point was that, once you make a decision, you need to follow through, then I would definitely agree.
Best wishes.

Very few of our sons experience this issue.
To me, this question might be properly positioned by listening to "9," the head coach at Stanford discuss the importance of a college education/degree, and hearing a scout/GM present the value of a signing bonus.
Someplace in this discussion is the "dream" and $$$$.
Someplace in this discussion is the hard reality of Milb. Someplace in this discussion is the value of a college degree, whether obtained by a baseball scholarship as contrasted with getting there through the MLB scholarship program.
To me, the continuing value of a thread like this one is to educate.
At some point, the "dream" becomes hard reality and the end of baseball for 99% of those drafted, whether they are drafted from HS or college.
To me, the value is to be fully informed on the options and choices and risks. There are no "guarantees" with the college choice, as many other threads on this site clearly demonstrate.
There are no "guarantees" with Milb even with $2,500,000, less taxes and agent paid.
Knowledge and information is a major key for each player and family to make choices so they might try and decide and negotiate from their choice and point of reference.

Just in case people don't know about Harrington

How does anyone in their right mind turn this down?

2000- The Rockies' final offer was $4 million and a guaranteed major league callup by the end of 2002. Isn't getting called up what it's all about? Granted it would probably be September with no guarantee of playing, but most players don't get this offer.

Harrington was Tanzer's first representation of a draft pick. He asked for 25% more than Jeff Hamilton signed for the previous year.

More detail from ESPN OTL

dw8man,
I meant never tell a scout that your son would play for a coke and a candy bar.
I didn't know that your son is older and able to make his own decision, with some college under his belt, the decision becomes much easier. I was refering to those out of HS.
I agree this is all about a personal decision, however, as pointed out on several occassions, the title leaves me personally to advise college after HS.
Matt Harrington is a perfect example of someone I think had very bad advice and greedy people making choices for him.
This is always a good discussion, however reality is that for most of our sons who will not get that type of money, make sure that the decision made is for the right reason, so that when you look back you are sure you made the right answer.

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:
Very few of our sons experience this issue.
To me, this question might be properly positioned by listening to "9," the head coach at Stanford discuss the importance of a college education/degree, and hearing a scout/GM present the value of a signing bonus.
Someplace in this discussion is the "dream" and $$$$.
Someplace in this discussion is the hard reality of Milb. Someplace in this discussion is the value of a college degree, whether obtained by a baseball scholarship as contrasted with getting there through the MLB scholarship program.
To me, the continuing value of a thread like this one is to educate.
At some point, the "dream" becomes hard reality and the end of baseball for 99% of those drafted, whether they are drafted from HS or college.
To me, the value is to be fully informed on the options and choices and risks. There are no "guarantees" with the college choice, as many other threads on this site clearly demonstrate.
There are no "guarantees" with Milb even with $2,500,000, less taxes and agent paid.
Knowledge and information is a major key for each player and family to make choices so they might try and decide and negotiate from their choice and point of reference.

Great post. It was mentioned earlier that this thread had gone off topic, but not really. Infielddad makes a great point “the continuing value of a thread like this one is to educate”. Well said. Like I mentioned in my OP, this topic came up at work with some folks that had former baseball experience. I was not all that prepared or educated for the conversation, but in the end I learned a lot. As many have stated here, it is a personal choice for the player and the family involved. The better educated you can be on the subject is only going to help if the opportunity ever presents itself. Forums and threads like this help make those personal choices. Oh, the title of the thread is how it was asked of me/discussed at work… but yes, it should read MiLB or College. I could change or edit the title but “Someplace in this discussion is the “dream”. “

quote:

Originally posted by Swampboy

From a dad's perspective, the purpose of baseball is to keep young men who don't like to sit still in school until they realize the baseball dream isn't going to come true.

Well said Swampboy. Number one son will never have to make this decision, but one thing for sure. He is getting a mostly free education, matured, became a good student, and most of all has made good friends in college. He's climbed the ladder from JUCO to D1 and no debts to date. He is preparing himself for life after baseball.

Someone stated that the first rounders out of HS that go on to college usually remain a top pick. They have a valid point, barring injury, the scouts will continue to track them. In other words, they have "options".

Son has had three ex-teammates go pro, one was a 1st rounder out of HS, the other a college junior(mid round), and the other a college sophomore(late round). In my opinion they made good decisions for their situation at the time.

I know this topic has come up, but the information sharing is priceless. I have to admit I got a chuckle out of TR's statement too. We learn a lot as parents on this site, from HS to College, to MILB. I just wish I had found this site a few years sooner.

Just another perspective;

1) Turning down $ 2.5 million at a young age is risky.

2) Turning down $ 2.5 million at a young age in a tough economic environment is very risky.

3) Turning down $ 2.5 million at a young age in the worst economic environment in our lifetimes (unless you are about 80 years old) is beyond risky. Its pure gambling.

Take the dough - make sure you take care of your parents - and run like a wild dog.

Hey Its... it's been a while.

Another perspective, in March 2006 I wanted to film a documentary on Independent League Baseball, being from Texas I reached an agreement with the FT. Worth Cats of the American Association. On that team were two guys that long time HSBBW members remember. Matt Harrington and Luke Hochevar, yes on the same team! (I have great footage on both)

Similar story different outcomes.

This forum proves that it is a completely individual choice that cannot be satisfied by a blanket answer or a minimum singing amount.

We've got the aforementioned Gerritt Cole and Danny Hultzen who turned down (I'm guessing) significant numbers as well as a fellow HSBBWer who would sign for a can of pop!

The RIGHT decision is the one that works out for YOU.

quote:

Originally posted by biggerpapi:
This forum proves that it is a completely individual choice that cannot be satisfied by a blanket answer or a minimum singing amount.

We've got the aforementioned Gerritt Cole and Danny Hultzen who turned down (I'm guessing) significant numbers as well as a fellow HSBBWer who would sign for a can of pop!

The RIGHT decision is the one that works out for YOU.

Great answer!

What would you want your son to do??

Me; "life changing money (excess of $1m) take it and give pro ball a shot for 2-3yrs, then to College.

Other than that; "Go to College and if baseball is meant to be it will be there for you after your Senior year also."

Great topic. Perfect message board conversation: A dream scenario with very little parameters.

Let’s assume you’re a player, parent, or close adviser that’s actually facing this dilemma; versus pure water cooler discussions: ie, when I go pick-up my Nobel, should I take a private jet or fly commercial? Can we also agree that a group of trusted opinions are unanimous or nearly unanimous that the player is capable of playing in the Majors? And that the Player’s self-perception, Parent’s/Adviser’s perception and the respected Scouts’ or trusted sources’ opinions are all inline?

If this is true, then there are three questions the players needs to answers. First, what is fastest route to the Majors? Do drafted High School Seniors make it to the Bigs quicker than their peers who get drafted the following year out of a JUCO or 3 years later out of highly-ranked D1? (Further assumption: Highly regarded High School Senior is choosing between draft and the highest echelon of college baseball programs)

Second, what kind of natural life-perspective does that player have? Can the player perceive their baseball playing days are but a portion of what is going a long and richly fulfilling life? Does the player only function when surrounded within a baseball environment or does the player see that other people have worked as hard at other crafts and through conversation and interaction the highlights of those differing experiences can be drawn from each other and applied to each other specialty?

Finally, what’s the player’s bonus going to be? Unless I’ve completely misunderstood the professional baseball experience, the signing bonus is the single big pay-day until the player is eligible for arbitration in the Majors (I’ve seen references to free agency at the Minors level, but my assumption is that’s not nearly a lucrative?). Once the signing-bonus is paid, the player is a salaried worker like most of America; locked into a daily grand to meet your ongoing financial obligations and working for improvement in hopes of a better opportunity in the future. In that light, forget any payback for parents or people who helped you along the way, is the bonus big enough, that if managed properly, will be the nest-egg from which your foreseeable life decisions will be altered? Is it truly seed money for a business venture? Will it cover the full cost of your return to school? Can it buy a house? When baseball is done and you are ready to throw yourself at the next ‘project’ of your life, does the money open up opportunities that are otherwise unattainable?

Each of these questions will require a good deal of research. The financial questions may be the murkiest and the hardest to get an honest opinion on. Get in front of an accountant and a financial advisor; in fact, get in front of 4 different ones. Make calls, go see people.

PS: It’s my understanding that private planes are frowned up in the laureate community, but it offers the most flexibility to your schedule for all the interviews you’ll be doing after the award ceremony.

quote:

Great answer!

What would you want your son to do??

Me: I dunno. IF it ever came up i think i would advise him to do what he wants to do. All I can do is support him along the way. But, if he were only being offered a bag of peanuts and a bus ticket I would like to think he would be smart enough to go to college, get an education, and play ball if it is available to him. If he were silly enough to take the peanuts and bus ticket... well maybe he isn’t cut out for higher education .

I think we often assume that pro ball is a big risk, with little chance at being successful and college is the ticket to success and a better life.

More important than either pro ball or college is the person themself. A college education has obvious advantages, but it does not guarantee success. There are many college grads scraping to get by these days. Many that didn't make it to the top in pro ball have used that experience to be successful.

I'm definitely "pro" college in most cases. That said, I know people who went pro for very little money... got released... and became very successful in the real world. I know some that signed for a small fortune who are now suffering. I know college graduates who are struggling.

The professional-college choice is one of many choices a person will make in their life. It's a choice that most will never have. No matter what choices people make there will be obsticles along the way. You either jump those hurdles or you crash and go down.

My point is... It's about the person more than that one choice. There's risk involved in everything. Everyone will make wrong decisions. It's all about how someone recovers from those wrong decisions.

I would agree with whoever posted this advice... If you aren't sure of what you want, you should probably go to school.

IMO, If you're absolutely sure of what you want... Go for it! IMO, there is more to life than making every decision based on business thinking. Will you marry the girl that you love the most, or will you choose the one that has the most money and that gives a better chance for security in the future?

quote:

Will you marry the girl that you love the most, or will you choose the one that has the most money and that gives a better chance for security in the future?

Oh, look out for that analogy PG. I could write a book on that choice; Love too, can be a fleeting thing! You point is valid, however. You only get one shot and it's up to the individual to make or break their lives!

quote:

Originally posted by njbb:
Discussing whether a player should take the millions or go to college is unrealistic.....How many players have that choice ?.. the question should be how little would you sign for? What is the pro experience worth? I don't think the experience if its 1 yr or 20 is a waste of time its unique to a select few.

quote:

Originally posted by Prime9:

quote:

Will you marry the girl that you love the most, or will you choose the one that has the most money and that gives a better chance for security in the future?

Oh, look out for that analogy PG. I could write a book on that choice; Love too, can be a fleeting thing! You point is valid, however. You only get one shot and it's up to the individual to make or break their lives!

Baseball and love? Both have their waiver wires and free agency.

Excellent topic and points...

I know that last year, my son's senior year in HS, there were over 1500 players drafted and his name was not on the list. So, no need to fret over that decision...but, it isn't like we expected him to be drafted either...I know that had he been drafted, he probably would have seriously considered it, but college was probably his best choice either way.

If he is fortunate enough to be drafted after his Junior or Senior year(s), I hope he goes for it if that's what he wants...which I expect he would...

From what I've seen after one semester, I think he has really taken to college (on and off field) and has a shot to contribute on the field through his career. Based on that, he will have gotten a solid education, been a part of something special and had the opportunity to show the scouts what they must have missed last spring However it works out, he'll have great friends and memories and a life long love for the game...Not bad payback for all the fun we all have had and continue to have on the ride!

quote:

Originally posted by Prime9:
What would you want your son to do??

We almost got to that point this past draft. It seemed for a while that my son might get drafted. An injury sank that.

But, in preparation for the draft, he had a scholarship waiting for him. So we set a number in our heads that would allow him to skip college for the time being. In our case, that number was quite a bit higher than where he was projected to be drafted.

We told ourselves that IF he was drafted and IF they met that number, then he'd go pro. If they didn't meet the number (with absolutely no wiggle room) then he'd go to college and try it again in three years.

I'm a firm believer (although I don't always like it) that God will provide events in our life the way they're supposed to happen. An injury sank his draft chances and he went to school. I am secretly thankful for that injury because as he completes his first semester, I know for an absolute fact that he's in the right place.

We just got "lucky" that we didn't have to make the decision!

If you asked him, he had a huge desire to be drafted bu I think he'd have to admit that he's in the right place too.

Also, a lot of the posts earlier in this thread talk about turning down seven figures. However, the vast majority of draftees aren't looking at those kinds of numbers.

So, wanna go pro for $2.5 million? Wanna go pro for $16,000? Two totally different questions.

quote:

Originally posted by biggerpapi:
Also, a lot of the posts earlier in this thread talk about turning down seven figures. However, the vast majority of draftees aren't looking at those kinds of numbers.

Oddly enough most parents feel their players are worth much more than they actually are. Been there done that, that's why most HS drafted players head to college. My opinion is that most are looking for more than they are worth (at that particular time in their career). The draft really isn't as mysterious as it was years ago, most players have a good idea where they will fall, lot of that is due to the attention you get. If a GM or his assistants, cross checkers and regional guys show up to watch you play, then you know you are a strong consideration top rounds, if Scott Boras or one of the larger agencies ask to represent you, that is also a sure sign. If PG or BA has you projected for specific rounds, you probably will get drafted in those rounds. If his name is no where to be found and he gets drafted, make sure that you understand the differences in opportunities.
FWIW, for those that are drafted early, the decision is harder than one that is drafted later, as most likely that player has a very good college scholarship to give up, and should be rewarded as such, within reason. That is usually where the money becomes an issue, as one can understand. And the point about the player being able to negotiate for his future is an important one,as he he will not be able to do that most likely for a very long time.

PG brings ups some very good points, and IMO no one knows their player better than the parent. That's why it comes down to such a personal decision. When faced with the decision out of HS, we didn't see our son being mature enough (as much as he was) to join the workforce, after 3 years of college he was more than ready. It might very well be that if he had gone pro, he might be at a higher level, but that is my point about not looking back once the decision is made. It is what it is and he doesn't regret the decision.
About being drafted (especially early), make sure it is for the right reasons, not just to hear your name called, remember that a scout put his faith in you and if he doesn't deliver he could lose his job.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

Oddly enough most parents feel their players are worth much more than they actually are.

Nope! If I said my son (either one) was worth 2.5M, I am sure that I am undervaluing his worth by a long shot...not necessarily his value to professional baseball, but definitely to his parents!

But, I know you meant value to professional baseball and I am in complete agreement that most parents over value their son's abilities at just about every level!

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
Oddly enough most parents feel their players are worth much more than they actually are.

There are probably different ways of interpreting this. Many parents believe their son is the best player on the field, regardless of reality. I suppose I have fit into that in the past.

In our case, with all of the information we had available to us before the draft, I think we definitely set a number in our heads that was most likely higher than what he was "worth."

Was he worth that number to the MLB club? Probably not. But was he worth that number and more to us when we consider the fact that the odds are pretty slim that he (or most players for that matter) will play long enough to see significant dollars.

Yes, the option of going to school after MiLB/MLB is always there but it seemed more likely he'd get it done now as opposed to later.

So the number had to be high enough where it would be more than we could pass up. It was irrelevant to us if the MLB club thought it was realistic.