Most important trait of a pitcher?

1. Mental strength
2. Good mechanics
3. Overall conditioning

I'm no pitching expert, but when I've seen meltdowns on the mound, it has been because of a failure of one of those 3.

confidence in your stuff

A lot of god given fast twitch muscles. The rest you can teach.

Your never going to be a pitcher if you don't have the arm strength to actually get on the mound. Why do kids become pitchers? Why do they get the chance to be pitchers? You dont say "Hey lets let Billy pitch because he can really focus." "Hey lets let Tommy pitch because he has no fear."

Its no different with mif's. Why do some kids end up in the middle? They show the tools needed to play the position. The kids with the good arms get the chance. And then it goes from there. The #1 thing is arm strength.

Then it comes down to the ability to command that arm strength. And it goes on from there.

First, a "live" arm, at the appropriate level. You can't coach God given arm strength.

Second, not just good mechanics, repeatable mechanics. The ability to repeat your delivery, repeat pitch location, and repeat command.

Lastly, Mental Maturity!

GED10DaD

I think you can pluck just about any player that's made as far as HS out of the field and train him to pitch at a reasonable level. Most have the arm and athletisism. But to get really good or master the craft takes work, desire, confidence. just like hitting...

Well Coach May and GunEmDown beat me to it - have to have a live / strong arm. Without that none of the rest matters. You do need all the other aspects but the live / strong arm is what gets the others worked on.

Probably the next two important things are control and mental toughness.

quote:

Originally posted by cball:
I think you can pluck just about any player that's made as far as HS out of the field and train him to pitch at a reasonable level.

Maybe in Texas

OK, we've got 3 or 4 posters who I've learned a lot from and whose viewpoints I value take the position of "arm strength first".
I agree and generally understand this position. However, I'd love to take this opportunity to ask those posters for specific breakdown as to why a pitcher who doesn't have a mid 80's plus arm cannot be affective at college level if he locates, mixes well and has mental toughness.
2012 son has been effective to date with those three and I anticipate that continuing thru HS. He has heard repeatedly that he needs to be mid 80's (he's not there)to make it to next level and is totally OK with trying to get there as hitter/position player but specific reasons/info/sound bites from experts always help.

quote:

However, I'd love to take this opportunity to ask those posters for specific breakdown as to why a pitcher who doesn't have a mid 80's plus arm cannot be affective at college level if he locates, mixes well and has mental toughness

A pitcher probably can be effective with those attributes, but the problem is there are many pitchers that possess these attributes but can also throw in the high 80’s.

Is the player likely to get stronger during the season and build arm strength, or do you believe he will never work above the low to mid 80’s?

quote:

Originally posted by cabbagedad:
OK, we've got 3 or 4 posters who I've learned a lot from and whose viewpoints I value take the position of "arm strength first".
I agree and generally understand this position. However, I'd love to take this opportunity to ask those posters for specific breakdown as to why a pitcher who doesn't have a mid 80's plus arm cannot be affective at college level if he locates, mixes well and has mental toughness.
2012 son has been effective to date with those three and I anticipate that continuing thru HS. He has heard repeatedly that he needs to be mid 80's (he's not there)to make it to next level and is totally OK with trying to get there as hitter/position player but specific reasons/info/sound bites from experts always help.

Velo is king. There's enough players that will meet the minimum velo requirement, Subsequently those that are effective at a lower velo would not be afforded a opportunity.

cabbagedad you can't say that someone who doesn't throw hard cannot make it but the likelihood of it happening is pretty slim. There are many guys out there at MLB, MiLB, DI and down who don't throw hard but get guys out but it's really not what the next level (whatever that may be) is looking for.

Let me explain it a couple of ways - first you can't teach / coach / create tremendous arm strength. Yes you can work your rear end off and make what you have better but you're not going to take a guy who has worked at it and is throwing 78 and change / increase his work and turn them into 90 plus. You can increase arm strength but what you look for is the guys who can naturally do it because the potential to work at it gives them a higher ceiling. The next level feels that they can teach a guy how to pitch as a softer thrower. They can be taught how to spot pitches, mix speeds and be mentally tough. But the thing is if they aren't able to teach that then no harm no foul - you really didn't lose out on a pitching prospect. You now have a second baseman or outfielder or whatever position.

Another way of looking at it is a guy who throws harder has more room to have an off day and still be effective. We got a kid who legitimately throws in the 90s and the rest of our staff is low 80's. We're pretty good team with the other guys on the hill but we're almost unbeatable with the 90's guy pitching. When our stud in on the mound he can throw three pitches out of the zone and still get a strike out whereas the other guys will probably walk the better hitters. It's not to say our 90s guy can't be hit because we lost the state championship with him on the mound and he pitched well. That's baseball but we actually had to make a nice comeback because the other team hit our other pitchers and got the lead.

In terms of getting noticed if scouts see a guy who can hump it up there he has their attention after one outing. A softer thrower can still impress scouts but it's going to take several outings to create interest. They want consistentcy from the pitcher. If the guy can throw it hard then they are going to take a chance with him and hope to teach him the other aspects - control, secondary pitches, mental toughness, holding runners. If they see a soft thrower have a nice performance they have to figure out if that's what he can do all the time or if he got lucky / the other team stunk.

Hope that helps some - it's not impossible for a softer throwing pitcher to get noticed and be successful but it will take a lot more work to get it done.

Tell your son if he wants to pitch at the next level then to go for it. Work his butt off getting a stronger arm but don't let up on the "other stuff" because chances are he won't turn into a guy throwing 90 (I really hope I'm wrong) but he can still be an effective pitcher.

Or since he is a lefty move him to left field or center and work on his hitting...

thanks guys... good stuff.
2709 - he is starting to work on arm strength and he still has 2 yrs of HS for natural growth but agree that he won't "turn into a guy throwing 90" so we'll just enjoy that aspect of the game in HS

florida - fortunately, that's exactly what he is doing - focusing on cf and hitting. He loves those as well.
BBB08 - sorry, didn't mean to hijack your post... thought it was very much related. thanks for the topic.

1. Moving fastball - or 95+
2. Good mechanics/ Consistency
3. Mental toughness
4. Overall conditioning

Without #1, you're toast.

Most important?

Extraordinary determination to succeed.

Most important trait for a pitcher is the ability to get ahead in the count and stay ahead in the count.

The pitcher ahead in the count is not forced to throw a hitters' pitch.

The pitcher who controls the count, controls the game.

It makes no difference how hard you throw as long as you can be effective.

quote:

Originally posted by BBB08:
Several agreed that the most important traits would be listed as follows:

1. Good Mechanics
2. Core Strength
3. Leg Strength
4. Arm Strength
5. Mental Strength

All are important however as you move up through the ranks into college or pro ball I would say possessing #1 thru #4 gets you in the game... #5 will probably be what sets you apart as best of class.

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"It makes no difference how hard you throw as long as you can be effective."

.

quote:

Originally posted by dswann:

quote:

Originally posted by cball:
I think you can pluck just about any player that's made as far as HS out of the field and train him to pitch at a reasonable level.

Maybe in Texas

You know I'm talking about the HS-college level. Not MLB HOF. Pitching aint rocket science, it's a craft that can be learned. Take an outfielder with an good HS arm or a SS you can teach that player to pitch no matter what state you happen you find yourself in.

quote:

Originally posted by dswann:

quote:

Originally posted by cabbagedad:
OK, we've got 3 or 4 posters who I've learned a lot from and whose viewpoints I value take the position of "arm strength first".
I agree and generally understand this position. However, I'd love to take this opportunity to ask those posters for specific breakdown as to why a pitcher who doesn't have a mid 80's plus arm cannot be affective at college level if he locates, mixes well and has mental toughness.
2012 son has been effective to date with those three and I anticipate that continuing thru HS. He has heard repeatedly that he needs to be mid 80's (he's not there)to make it to next level and is totally OK with trying to get there as hitter/position player but specific reasons/info/sound bites from experts always help.

Velo is king. There's enough players that will meet the minimum velo requirement, Subsequently those that are effective at a lower velo would not be afforded a opportunity.

no velo is not king. getting hitters out is.

1. Velocity: live arm w/movement(arm-side, glove-side, sink, or cut) or a mid-90's heater.

1A. Command: you can have a god given arm, but if you can't command the strike zone consistently, it doesn't matter!

1B. Secondary Pitch: Good hitters will hit the FB, you MUST have good secondary pitches in your arsenal.

2. Good Mechanics: will help #1, #1A, and #1B stay consistent, and hopefully keep pressure off the arm to maintain health.

3. Mental Make Up: Heart, Determination, ability to compete 1 pitch, 1 batter, 1 out, 1 inning, and 1 game at a time!

4. Conditioning: Arm, Legs, and Core Strength...and even Mental Conditioning via books, tapes, mentors/coaches.

This is what I've preached to my son for years as his dad/pitching coach. If you have the above traits, IMO you'll get people out and be successful the majority of the time...even on days that you don't have your best stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by cball:

quote:

Originally posted by dswann:

quote:

Originally posted by cball:
I think you can pluck just about any player that's made as far as HS out of the field and train him to pitch at a reasonable level.

Maybe in Texas

You know I'm talking about the HS-college level. Not MLB HOF. Pitching aint rocket science, it's a craft that can be learned. Take an outfielder with an good HS arm or a SS you can teach that player to pitch no matter what state you happen you find yourself in.

Huh.. I always thought of pitching as a finite skill which took years of practice competing in a variety of venues, dedicating oneself to the discipline of devolping large and small muscle groups over a period of years to limit injuries and develop strenght for enhanced velocity in conjunction with replicating your delivery to a point where a variety of pitches are indistingusible from one another. You do this because the guy in the batters box that your facing has invested a similiar effort, into his craft and is looking to beat the cr*p out of the ball if you make a mistake!

quote:

Originally posted by cball:

quote:

Originally posted by dswann:

quote:

Originally posted by cabbagedad:
OK, we've got 3 or 4 posters who I've learned a lot from and whose viewpoints I value take the position of "arm strength first".
I agree and generally understand this position. However, I'd love to take this opportunity to ask those posters for specific breakdown as to why a pitcher who doesn't have a mid 80's plus arm cannot be affective at college level if he locates, mixes well and has mental toughness.
2012 son has been effective to date with those three and I anticipate that continuing thru HS. He has heard repeatedly that he needs to be mid 80's (he's not there)to make it to next level and is totally OK with trying to get there as hitter/position player but specific reasons/info/sound bites from experts always help.

Velo is king. There's enough players that will meet the minimum velo requirement, Subsequently those that are effective at a lower velo would not be afforded a opportunity.

no velo is not king. getting hitters out is.

Velo allows your the opportunity to make the team, to take the mound to compete. The OP son is a hitters worst nightmare. It could be a challenge to find a spot beyond HS or in HS depending on the pitching depth of the team. Not because he cannot get hitters out. He will not be afforded the opportunity to compete because of the emphasis placed on velocity.

A short memory.

Same list as bsbl247

1. Fastball. Live arm w/movement
1A. Command
1B. Secondary off speed pitch
2. Good Mechanics
3. Tenacity
4. Conditioning

.

"no velo is not king. getting hitters out is."

.

Throw strikes.

.

"Throw strikes."

.

Most important trait of a pitcher? .....

Being your son of course.

quote:

Originally posted by dswann:

quote:

Originally posted by cball:

quote:

Originally posted by dswann:

quote:

Originally posted by cball:
I think you can pluck just about any player that's made as far as HS out of the field and train him to pitch at a reasonable level.

Maybe in Texas

You know I'm talking about the HS-college level. Not MLB HOF. Pitching aint rocket science, it's a craft that can be learned. Take an outfielder with an good HS arm or a SS you can teach that player to pitch no matter what state you happen you find yourself in.

Huh.. I always thought of pitching as a finite skill which took years of practice competing in a variety of venues, dedicating oneself to the discipline of devolping large and small muscle groups over a period of years to limit injuries and develop strenght for enhanced velocity in conjunction with replicating your delivery to a point where a variety of pitches are indistingusible from one another. You do this because the guy in the batters box that your facing has invested a similiar effort, into his craft and is looking to beat the cr*p out of the ball if you make a mistake!

All pitchers make mistakes. So what. Next pitch.

quote:

Originally posted by cball:

quote:

Originally posted by dswann:

quote:

Originally posted by cball:

quote:

Originally posted by dswann:

quote:

Originally posted by cball:
I think you can pluck just about any player that's made as far as HS out of the field and train him to pitch at a reasonable level.

Maybe in Texas

You know I'm talking about the HS-college level. Not MLB HOF. Pitching aint rocket science, it's a craft that can be learned. Take an outfielder with an good HS arm or a SS you can teach that player to pitch no matter what state you happen you find yourself in.

Huh.. I always thought of pitching as a finite skill which took years of practice competing in a variety of venues, dedicating oneself to the discipline of devolping large and small muscle groups over a period of years to limit injuries and develop strenght for enhanced velocity in conjunction with replicating your delivery to a point where a variety of pitches are indistingusible from one another. You do this because the guy in the batters box that your facing has invested a similiar effort, into his craft and is looking to beat the cr*p out of the ball if you make a mistake!

All pitchers make mistakes. So what. Next pitch.

Now I get it. Just throw strikes and get outs. Kinda like, just hit for a high average with power.

looks like it's just me and you left on this but yeah the first part of your post is essentialy correct. The part about hitting? No, hitting is way harder, IMO. than learning to pitch at the HS level.

BTW I'm going through this process right now with my 15YO son. A SS that is learning to pitch. In a few appearances he's about as good as anyone on his teams. Of course he pitched some in youth ball but never was considered by me as a real pitcher. Now I'm not so sure. We're working to see where it leads but he's just one example. It ain't all that hard.

One other myth that's out there about pitching I hear and read here all the time is you gotta throw 90's to play D1. I call BS on that. I'm guessing the majority of D1 pitchers are in the mid to high 80's. I just sat with a D1 pitching coach and had this discussion. He went throw all his guys and out of twelve he only mentioned two that were true 90plus guys. he also said his best was a 85-86 righty that was just a pure bulldog.

cball - just be aware what a significance height plays in the future recruitment of a pitcher. If your son is sub 6' I would continue to focus on the bat.

quote:

Originally posted by floridafan:
cball - just be aware what a significance height plays in the future recruitment of a pitcher. If your son is sub 6' I would continue to focus on the bat.

He's only 15 so I don't know how tall he will be so we'll continue to work on both. And your'e right there is a bias toward the taller guys but every roster I have looked at so far has multiple exceptions on their staff.

Not to burst your bubble cball, and speaking from very recent experince cball, unless your son is throwing at least 87 in showcases (for a Righty) he will not get a look from most D1's. For whatever reason 87 seems to be the magic number. My son is a 6'4" R pitcher who is very projectable, bla bla bla, and when he was sitting at 84-86 no one cared. Once he started throwing 87-89 the sky opened up and the phone started ringing.

Go look at some of PG's posts regarding the velocities at Jupiter. Like it or not velocity is all that matters, the rest can be taught. (at least from a college coach perspective)

Hey BOF! Can you teach me how to make my son taller?

cball,

You're right. Velocity isn't necessary the King on a HS Diamond...Throwing strikes and getting outs is. But, if a coach has two pitchers that have all the other traits that I listed earlier, who is he going to put on the bump in crunch time?

We don't see too many high school coaches that carry around radar guns? However, look into the stands during the game (high school, legion, or travel), and if a good prospect is on the mound...every scout, coach, recruiting coordinator will have their Guns pointed directly towards the middle of the diamond. They're checking FB velocity first and foremost, followed by his secondary pitches. That's life, whether it's fair or not?

I was in Arizona with my son at the Fall Classic in October. He had just completed his game and we were watching his friends team play on another field. This was a scout ball team that was running kids out on the bump throwing high 80's to low 90's, and there was about a dozen scouts/coaches behind home plate with their guns......then a little stirring and commotion occurred, and all the scouts scattered to another field across the way! Why? A young skinny lefty was throwing on another field and sitting 93-94, and running his FB up to 96 on a Stalker a couple times!? So, Field Four had some very good pitchers and a couple scouts hung around to watch...Yet, Field Five had this young man throwing serious Gas and 30-40 scouts/coaches decided that's where they wanted to be, so in this case...VELOCITY IS KING!

quote:

Originally posted by BOF:
Not to burst your bubble cball, and speaking from very recent experince cball, unless your son is throwing at least 87 in showcases (for a Righty) he will not get a look from most D1's. For whatever reason 87 seems to be the magic number. My son is a 6'4" R pitcher who is very projectable, bla bla bla, and when he was sitting at 84-86 no one cared. Once he started throwing 87-89 the sky opened up and the phone started ringing.

Go look at some of PG's posts regarding the velocities at Jupiter. Like it or not velocity is all that matters, the rest can be taught. (at least from a college coach perspective)

Why would that comment burst my bubble? I was talking about 90+. Nearly every game I catch on TV if the radars are to be believed the vast majority of college pitchers I see are throwing somewhere in the mid to upper 80's. The D1 pitching coach I metioned said he didn't throw 90 until he was in pro ball.

One other thing D1 is not a goal of ours. A good school where he could play baseball is quite enough no matter what the classification