My Mechanics

quote:

No haven't talked to him. But have you talked to the people you said have done drills?

OOOOOOO....how quickly they forget....

Early in this thread my friend...itold you about John Tudor


My son also took some lessons at a clinic from Rich Gale...a former Red Sox Pitcher & Sox Pitching coach

Currently my son (being a lefty) works with a left handed pitching coach. He pitched in college in Florida for 4 years. The gentlema who runs that AAU organiztion was a formaer college player, coach and scout for Yankees

I am waiting for some reference from you as to who you got all this stuff your spewing from.

Also who you have had success with in getting to lets say the professional ranks/....college basseball?....American legion ball?....Heck....HS ball?

Busta you are scary.

If you don't stop at SET position you are balking idiot. You have to come to a distinct stop. The Rules say so.I suppose you don't know rules either.
Take a look at the videos hoove posted.

quote:

I repeat there should be NO stopping at all, even at the balance. WOW if you stopped then it would be like golfers stopping at the backswing.

Bingo......

You cannot change directions in a golf swing without a moment of zero movement...it is a FRACTION of a second, but it does exist.

Busta,

Ok...i will make this EXTRAORDINARYLY SIMPLE FOR YOU


Post a video of one of your students....JUST ONE

I have no experience, as I've said I am young. I have listened to Dick Mills, who's ideas are evidenced based and not belief based. There you happy.

Hoove,

I was just looking back at your videos....a suggestion....

make your first move after taking your sign a small back step with your lead leg, you have a sideways move first, which means you have to make sure you come back and center yourself exactly the same way every time....that is not an easy thing for a young pitcher to do.

A small step back to allow your post leg foot to clear and turn is all you need. This keeps your center of gravity from moving side to side before you actually begin your delivery

Busta,

I get no great pleasure in this....but please try to be real here.


You come on here spouting how no one knows how to teach pitching. You have not taught a single person. Your going to find that the real world has these ideas and concepts that are founded in years of expereince and success.


As i stated, if you come up with something, we would love to hear it, but dont bash the rest of the known universe with nothing to back you up but I went to a Dick Mills seminar.

Come here with real hard world experience showing how you have so many percent of your students to a certain level.

Or I worked with "Fred", a pitcher at XYZ State U. Here is what he was doing before...and after....Here are the statistical results of before...and after.

Your not going to influence anyone by just belittling the conventional wisdom.

I'll admit it I wish I could take back how I came on here. But I thought you guys would like my ideas but I guess you didn't. I never said no one knows how to teach pitching, I just meant that teaching pitching should be better. I will come on here when I do have my students to a certain level and tell you all about it. How was the Dick Mills seminar?

I saw your posts about DM on another thread.
His theories are nothing new.keep your hand on your wallet. He has used his approach to separate himself from the other establishments who are vying for your dollars. Your not the 1st DM disciple who has come on here and put his views out.
It called marketing to the uninformed .

I have met with DM in person and he is not uninformed. He changed some things because of new advances. He IMO explains the pitching mechanics the best, you might no agree with his stands on weighted balls, LT, or drills,etc. But he has done alot of research and has presented evidence based facts.

My question to people who think weighted balls work. What happens when they are proven wrong by science? Then what are all the coaches going to do? Beg for forgiveness?

Someone who should beg for giveness is the person who takes money from a player or parent to tteach pitching and doesn't even know what the wheel play is. All it shows is that you have no playing background or coaching background.

You keep talking about science proving wrong. You are not even knowledgeable enough to read the studies and understand them. You take someone's word for it or post line out of context because it appears to meet your agenda. Then you crow about how you have proof and evryone else is wrong. That is immature and ignorant.

Further more, you talk about thinking we would be interested in what you have to say. We are, until you just blantantly started dismissing everything we said, rather rudely and arrogantly. You reap what you sow. It especially annoying coming from someone who has no real practical experience. That was obvious to us. You are so enamored with yourself that you think you can re-invent the wheel. Has it evered occurred to you that DM is against WB and LT because that is where the main group of competitiors for his on-line stuff comes from. He spouts propaganda and you swallow the kool-aid.

It is obvious to everyone here that you are immature and a novice, yet you continue to try to convince everybody that you know best. As I have said all along, you have no credibility and you brought all the abuse on yourself. IMO, you should go to the DM site and complain with all the others there about how ignorant people WITH experience are and how they are tied to methods that don't work because we are all stupid.

People with experience take information from where ever they can get it. They don't just blindly follow a guru. Don't you think eeveryone of us that REALLY have experience have looked into DM, Tom House, S e tpro, Jaeger, Mike Marshal, etc..... We make up our own midns and meld what works for us.

Knowing mechanics as taught by someone else is one thing, actually teaching is different and there is more than one way to skin a cat and you just don't have the background to argue, because you don't know. I would stop reading rhetoric and start learning how to teach. Einstein knew the theory of relativity, but he could not travel at the speed of light.

If you want to stay here, I would adjust your attitude and start to give some respect. Then you might earn some. Right now you are on empty.

Hoovedawg -- getting back to you on your question:

There are many points where I would disagree with Bustamove, but I agree at least with his statement that you should not come to a complete stop at your balance point. At least, that's the general rule. There are exceptions, notably a few Japanese pitchers who use their windups more as a means of distraction to the batter than to enhance velocity or control.

You can also work on stopping at your balance point as a drill, that is, come to a stop at the apex of your kick to test whether you are in fact in balance.

But in a typical delivery, you would not come to a complete stop. Watch MLB pitchers and watch how they continue to move, most of them fluidly. Probably the smoothest that immediately comes to mind is Mariano Rivera, and since he's on TV all the time you can tape him easily and watch it in slo mo replay all you want.

One thing that happens at the apex of your kick is that you unlock your hips to begin coming forward with your kick/landing leg. Your arm also never comes to a complete stop; it continues to work into power position so that it is ready to come forward on time. If you freeze your arm at balance point you will often find that your arm drags behind. Arm drag is to be avoided because it costs you both velocity and control, and also adds needlessly to the stresses experienced by your elbow and shoulder.

Hope that helps to answer your question and also to maybe get the rest of us back on point and away from all the other stuff we seem to fall into with disturbing frequency.

"I'm talking about once you start there should be no stopping."

"I repeat there should be NO stopping at all, even at the balance. WOW if you stopped then it would be like golfers stopping at the backswing. Yes I'm a pitching instructer and yes I work pickoff moves with my pitchers. What about the slide step? The slide step is used to get the ball to the plate quicker. What you do is get all you're weight on back leg and then rock you're hip back slightly so you lead with the hip and maintain power."


I believe someone has already addressed this, but how is you leg supposed to changre direction with out a momentary (sometimes more than momentary) pause.



Ted Lilly
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/scripts/mediaplayer/mp_tp...Type=w&urlstr=&murl=

Casey Fossum
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/scripts/mediaplayer/mp_tp...Type=w&urlstr=&murl=

James Shields
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/scripts/mediaplayer/mp_tp...Type=w&urlstr=&murl=


With that said, why does it matter what you do before you stop? All of your momentum stops so any big herky jerky movements before the balence point would be a waste of energy.

You have sited Oswalt a few times--but even he comes to a brief pause.

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/scripts/mediaplayer/mp_tp...Type=w&urlstr=&murl=



I agree that you should not have a long pause, but I'm mainly asking about this because I still see no reason why I should speed up the beginning of my delivery. Even if there is an extremly short pause---there has to be because your leg is changing direction--- all of the extra momentem that I got from the sped up beginning to my delivery is lost.

I'm not saying I think a pause is good--I think a fluid delivery is good, I am just wondering---Why speed up the beginning of my delivery.

quote:

One thing that happens at the apex of your kick is that you unlock your hips to begin coming forward with your kick/landing leg. Your arm also never comes to a complete stop; it continues to work into power position so that it is ready to come forward on time.

I agree 100% Well put and accurate.

Bustamove, you have a personal message.

Well now, Hoovedawg, you've crossed the line from student to internet arguer! But I'm not sure congratulations are in order ....

To answer your question, as your kick leg goes up your throwing arm goes down, from the glove, behind the leg to the "downward L" position. At apex, the leg starts moving forward and downward towards the landing spot. Thus the leg never completely stops. During this motion your throwing arm should swing up into the "upward L" position, which is the power position pre-delivery.

All of this best happens in a fluid motion. Stop/start deliveries have a way of jerking the joints and also getting out of synch.

As I said many times--I'm not arguing about the stop or no stop--I am trying to figure out why speeding up the first 2 steps of my delivery will help my velocity.

In your oppinion will my velocity increase if I speed up the first part of my delivery.

I may sound like I'm arguing, but I'm really just trying to figure out what is right. There has been a ton of pieces of advice in this thread that contradict other advice.

quote:

As I said many times--I'm not talking about the stop or no stop--I am trying to figure out why speeding up the first 2 steps of my delivery will help my velocity.

Midlo Dad offers very good advice. IMHO if you speed up you're tempo right from the start, you will have more potential energy that will come to the arm which will get more velocity. I know it sounds weird but it works in my experience. But you must be balanced and start slow at first, so I would work on that first. When you get that fixed work on speeding up you're tempo just a bit and I think it will help you.

Thanks for all of the help but ,no offense to all, but there are so many pieces of conflicting advice that I think I may take Grateful's advice.

Even things that the same person said at different times are conflicting.



"Hoovedawg......relax......don't try to learn everything that everyone is writing here.....some of the advice is good and some is not; thus I'm sure it may be a little confusing.

If you aren't getting any live instruction, keep those spikes on, lengthen your stride, and release the ball as far out in front of your nose as you can......other than that, I don't want to confuse you more than you must already be after reading all of these posts!"

quote:

Thanks for all of the help but ,no offense to all, but there are so many pieces of conflicting advice that I think I may take Grateful's advice.

That's fine, but realize if you want to be a better pitcher you better work you're tail off. You may want to contact a private instructor and make sure he knows what he's doing. If you take Grateful's advice you are not improving you're mechanics. So IMO you should take whatever advice feels right for YOU and get to work!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Hoovedawg:
As I said many times--I'm not arguing about the stop or no stop--I am trying to figure out why speeding up the first 2 steps of my delivery will help my velocity.

In your oppinion will my velocity increase if I speed up the first part of my delivery.

I may sound like I'm arguing, but I'm really just trying to figure out what is right. There has been a ton of pieces of advice in this thread that contradict other advice.

Hoov,

Don't worry about how fast or slow your tempo is prior to leg kick. It has no bearing on anything other possibly helping you gain a little momentum (it may feel more comfortable). Find a controlled tempo that you are comfortable with. From viewing your video the tempo looks fine (it has to be comfortable to you).

One thing I would suggest as a drill:

Hold your finish for 2, 3, 4 seconds (you decide how long). You stand straight up. Meaning you never (at least in the video) finish what you throw. Get used to what finishing the pitch feels like. Will you hold for 2 - 4 seconds in a game?....NO....But by working on holding the finish you will develop a new habit.

In order to hold a finish you will have to have good balance throughout your delivery.

What should it look like? Well that will vary from pitcher to pitcher. For you, just learning how to pitch, think of it as being in a good position to field the ball. Bent at your waist. Nose over toes. Face on your catcher/target.

I compare what you do while throwing in your second video post to throwing in a phone booth. No offense of course.

So to wrap it up. Goal is to find a repeatable delivery that is comfortable to you and will allow you throw the ball where you want.

Start from the set, pick up your target when leg reaches highest point. Once your leg reaches it's highest point and the leg starts down and forward your hands should start to separate near or at your belt. Use your back side (back leg) to help drive your front side (glove side: Nose, Lft shoulder, hip, knee and foot) to your target/catcher. NOTE: While starting toward the plate do not let your upper body get behind your back leg (don't tilt your shoulders too much). Keep your glove over your front foot from start to finish. Hold your finish for a few seconds and REPEAT.

This is VERY difficult to describe in words alone. There are MANY other things to be aware of but this is a simple (I HOPE) way for you to practice what most are suggesting to you. Take what you like and use it.

I sure hope what I wrote and what others have written has not confused you. It doesn't sound like it has, as seen in your latest posts.

quote:

Hoov,

Don't worry about how fast or slow your tempo is prior to leg kick. It has no bearing on anything other possibly helping you gain a little momentum (it may feel more comfortable). Find a controlled tempo that you are comfortable with. From viewing your video the tempo looks fine (it has to be comfortable to you).

I respectfully disagree with this statement. You're advice Low is good except this. So do you think Roy Oswalt would tell you he doesn't care how fast or slow his tempo is? Even Mark Prior who is built like a brickhouse has a pretty quick tempo. But if you notice with Mark Prior he is very good at shifting his weight which means he gets off the back leg quick. Yes the tempo for the pitcher must feel right but you must have enough energy to throw with maximum velocity and that's where quick tempo comes in. JMO.

Then how do you explain pitchers maintaining velocity from the set?

We are talking about his tempo prior to leg kick. Correct?

It's the same thing, start by making sure you load up all the weight on the back leg. And then move explosively toward landing. We're talking about toward landing but you also need to have fast tempo prior to leg kick as well.

By Busta:

quote:

you also need to have fast tempo prior to leg kick as well.

Bustamove,

Arrogance, lack of practical knowledge and your knack for being an annoying know-it-all are not good qualities to have in your presumed line of work.

Well like I said earlier....How do you explain pitchers maintaining velocity from the set? Not a whole lot of movement going there prior to leg kick....LOL...

Loading up weight on the back leg as you put it........Yes, this is generically called the balance point....don't go forward till leg gets too highest point......

And Busta ....you are not telling me anything I don't already know, have heard or seen.....except, due to your lack of experience, your verbage is a heck of alot different than what I have been exposed to.....I tried to give you a little piece of advice yesterday and you obviously didn't listen. I have bit my tongue long enough. And I really liked the fact no one knew of my experience but here you go BUSTA.

I speak from experience, pitching (in college and professionally), coaching, instructing, listening, observing etc...I will not post specifics on the public board (would be happy to send to you in a PM). I have coached in college for 12 years and the last 2 yrs in professional baseball.....I have coached over 30 pitchers who have gone on to play professional baseball w/ MLB affiliated teams.....3 of which are in the big leagues right now......I feel I know of what I speak....It is EXTREMELY difficult to explain techniques on a message board. And by no means am I bragging by the number of pitchers I've had go on to play pro ball.....I like to think they made it as far as they did because of their ability, not anything I did....but I do like to think that what they did while with me didn't hurt them (i.e. I didn't mess them up too much).

If your brain hasn't exploded from all the conflicting information then you are way ahead of me! Reading/interpreting over 60 versions of how to deliver the ball is unfathomable. Mow some yards and use the $$ to hire a qualified instructor with a proven track record. It will be money well spent!

Busta,

I feel you are passionate about what you speak. I feel you are not knowledgeable about what you speak. You simply do not have enough experience.......Make copies of some of your posts and then look at them in 10 years and see the difference.....you will be amazed.

Low, I tried to be as nice as I could while explaining my opinion to you. And yet you call me arrogant. I agree I have been arrogant in the PAST but I'm trying to be more respectful. I know I have alot to learn and I'm willing to learn.

quote:

My question to people who think weighted balls work. What happens when they are proven wrong by science? Then what are all the coaches going to do? Beg for forgiveness?

Busta,


Weighted balls are tools, so is a weighted bat or a donut for a bat.

ANY tool can be used ....or misused. I do not believe anyone here has claimed that exculsive use of weighted balls is a good thing. Would you tell every hitter who ever used a heavy bat or a donut in soft toss drills was wrong?

Weighted balls are a simple tool ...used in a full program of training they DO provide a benefit. You can choose to ignore that fact if you choose, that is up to you. Rather than throw such foolish comments as the one i quoted....go out yourself....and actually do the research with your students. See the real world results instead of claiming science will disprove it. I am telling you from actual real experience...it does work.

Hoove everything starts from set. That is when you are stopped before you go to balance. You do not stop at balnce but move fluily through balance. You should practice each step slowly and deliberately until you do each without thinking about each step. When at the set position you should be totally relaxedand and loose.
All the great pitching coaches break down the motion into its parts and examine your form at each step. Anyone who teaches you based on watching your existing motion at pitching speed dosen't know what he is doing. My son spent 4 weekends with the head Jays coach and he taught each step until you mastered each of them.
You need to get good instruction from a qualified pitching coach.
Busta the uninformed was not DM it was you and many people who look for the magic answer. DM is very informed and you are not the only one who becomes a disciple.
By the way I assume you have a son who pitches.

Busta

Why do you think your opinion is right and other opinions are erroneous/

Substance is nice in lieu of "I want to help pitchers"---can you help pitchers?


And I still say instruction baseball, for all facets, has to be done face to face in person not on the internet

Hoove,

Best advice I can give you...find an instructor with good references that is close enough to you that you can get with him as often as you need to.

Work with him, and have your Dad or someoneelse go with you too. As another observer...and most importantly...as another pair of ears.

You will be focused into a specfic thing at times and may miss something the coach says.
It never hurts to have someone there who just observing & listening.

Also ask the coach if he minds if you video tape the lesson from start to finish. It will give you a chance ot see yourself throwing and doing drills as well. Yes drills !

Best of Luck to you young man.

We all look forward to hearing progress reports from you !

quote:

Originally posted by Bustamove:

quote:

Thanks for all of the help but ,no offense to all, but there are so many pieces of conflicting advice that I think I may take Grateful's advice.

That's fine, but realize if you want to be a better pitcher you better work you're tail off. You may want to contact a private instructor and make sure he knows what he's doing. If you take Grateful's advice you are not improving you're mechanics. So IMO you should take whatever advice feels right for YOU and get to work!!!

Bustamove.....you have made enemies of the others, now you want to start with me, too? Did you read what advice I wrote to the boy? As a matter of fact, above, in your words, you repeated what I suggested regarding getting a qualified instructor.

If you and I were in the same town trying to teach pitching for a living, you would starve and I would be fat. Don't tell one guy that you are trying to be respectful, and on the same day tell the kid that my advice won't work.

I have done for years what you are claiming you hope to do......good luck to ya.

And Hoovedawg, I am sorry I got off the topic here, I just couldn't let this guy go....keep working and learning and you'll do well!

Grateful, I'm not trying to make an enemy with you. You're advice to him was pretty much to have fun and that's great but it's no going to help him much with mechanics.

Bustamove....no, you are wrong.....that was not my advice......I did give him very valid, succinct advice.......it was clear that after reading paragraph after paragraph of conflicting advice that any kid would be confused.....

I could have told him that if he followed your advice it would not be helpful, but I did not.....so, go back and read exactly what I told him.

Maybe you should come to me for advice, bustamove.....I guarantee that after two sessions with me you would be throwing harder, have a better understanding of your mechanics, and pitch with better mechanics.

I am not going to come on here and fill a kid's head with paragraphs of mechanical advice; that won't do him any good. He needs repetition and constant feedback from a good pitching instructor; that is something that is impossible to do here on a website.

I don't usually come on here and respond to idiots, but if that is what you want then I'll give it to you.

Now, bustamove, I have pitching lessons with kids today at 10, 11, 12, 1, 3, and 6 o'clock......would you like to get your hands dirty, get a sweat going, and learn something?

Grateful, sorry I didn't see you're first post. Before I come to you with advice I would like to know what the basis of you're teaching is? How do you teach kids to get from the back leg to the front leg? Do you believe the arm is the source of strength? Or is it the body? Do you videotape you're students? With Hoovedawg I noticed at the start his tempo was too slow, now I just got BLASTED on this board for saying that. But I believe people overlook that and IMO it is a key to velocity.

Low337, BigHit, NHFDad, Bobble, Tr, Grateful, just some friendly advice here. Take a "Deep Breath", now hold and and save it for something more useful than "Our newest version of Will Hunting". All theory (DM), and very little experience.

quote:

With Hoovedawg I noticed at the start his tempo was too slow, now I just got BLASTED on this board for saying that.

Busta,

You got "blasted" for claiming you can teach pitching without drills. You got "blasted" for claiming yo be able to teach pitching when you have not as yet taught anyone.

"
It appeared to me that his speed of movement was too slow otherwise he had very solid mechanics."

What you missed was what Coachric said in his very first post....too much swaying....

That is caused by his very first move which is sideways. Now if you make him do this even faster, he is only going to sway more, and have to fight to get his body back to the same postion on each pitch. Hence your advice would only multiply his problem.

As far as your last post goes....

"How do you teach kids to get from the back leg to the front leg? "

How are you going to do this...you claim you will watch him, watch video then show the right way...

How are you going to teach this if you do not believe in drills ?...Specifically ? Those of us who understand how pitching is truely taught to young players know these issues & faults are dealt with using specific drills. Each component of the motion is isolated and practiced, then pieced together.

You are going to find out what others already have...you cannot simply tell a kid do it this way and expect he will be able to fix the problem. Even if you could get the results you want in a lesson, who is going to discover and show him the fix 3 days later when his engrained habit returns?


All this is why you got "blasted".