National Anthem....the other side of the coin!

I

Swampboy posted:

roothog66 posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

Swampboy posted:

Part of growing up is learning that the world doesn't revolve around you and most people really don't want to know what you think about everything. I recently went to a religious service of a group of which I am not a member. I didn't care for it and disagreed with much of it. I suppose I could have made my disagreement known by refusing to stand or kneel at the designated times and by holding a news conference in the lobby to explain why. But I didn't. Nobody asked my opinion, so I kept it to myself and smiled politely.  Would that have been too much to ask of this player?

This generation of youths seems to have a large percentage that don't understand this. 

He didn't give his opinion until asked. It was noticed by an NFL TV reporter who asked his opinion - he gave it. I think he tried to make it clear he wasn't seeking publicity, but rather just doing what his conscience told him to do. I don't have a problem with that. As a veteran who actually risked his life and took the lives of others in the name of that flag, I'm proud to live in a country where you can choose to act on your own values and morals and not have it forced on you.

Roothog, 

Generally speaking, people do not make it clear they're not seeking publicity by granting interviews to national media and then following up with even longer interviews.

It wasn't the first time he had done it - just the first time it was noticed. he was asked and he gave an explanation. Once it became a big media story, follow up probably felt necessary. I'm personally glad he spoke up. We have a big time race problem in this country, especially as it concerns the legal system (which I am a part of and see every day) and the police. If the this starts conversation, then I'm all for it. Just pointing to the fact that there are some millionaire Blacks in the entertainment industry and saying, "See, there's no problem - they made it just fine," doesn't work for me.

Did I just read where someone is citing the VMA awards as evidence that "this idea of an "oppressed" people is getting blown WAY out of proportion"?  Did I also read that some QB making $19 million a year supports the same argument?  I'm all for making an well reasoned argument, but those two pieces of "evidence" don't quite clear the bar in my mind.  

I don't think you're missing anything Swamp. I just want to to be extra careful I'm not disrespecting you in any way. 

Thank you for your service. 30 years is quite an accomplishment. 

I'm making the argument that if people of any race or religion want to make something for themselves, they have the opportunity to do it in this country. Athletes and artists are just two obvious examples. There are PLENTY of other examples of minorities lifting themselves out of less than perfect conditions. Ben Carson is one example. Herman Cain is another. If you are so inclined, Barak Obama is another. If minorities were systematically "oppressed", none of these people would be where they are today. 

bballman posted:

Kaepernick has a right to do this.  However, people also have a right to disagree and express their displeasure with it.  People can legally burn the flag.  It doesn't mean I am ever going to condone it.  With all due respect to Swampboy and other veterans who have given to this country, this type of behavior is despicable.  I understand your point Swamp, but people also have the right to disagree with this viewpoint.  They have the right to teach their kids that this is NOT the type of behavior to emulate.  I'm sure you don't disagree with me.

What is most infuriating to me is this is coming from a man who is making $19 million a year.  In what country are a group of people supposedly "oppressed", but can make $19 million a year??  I was flipping in and out of the VMA awards last night and saw almost NO white people.  Every one of the "oppressed" people that were on the stage were multi millionaires.  They all certainly have MUCH more money than me.  I think this idea of an "oppressed" people is getting blown WAY out of proportion.

America remains the land of opportunity.  It remains the land where if you work hard enough and want to succeed enough, you can do whatever you want.  This goes for sports, music, business, trades, whatever.  I just think when you have a multi millionaire protesting that his race is "oppressed", there is something wrong there...

Of course, this is JMHO, but I don't think anyone is going to convince me otherwise.

The ones that either have not had as much oppression or have been able to overcome it are the ones who have the voice for others. I'm pretty successful, I would venture, and yet to get here I've been accosted by white supremacists, told I was only good for nigger work, and held in my home and arrested by cops who referred to me by both racial and religious slurs...and those are the OVERT acts. The majority of racially-based actions are covert and often unintentional. I'm very lucky that I am as light-skinned as I am, because at a glance, I just look like a white guy that tans well (except in the summer,) and I know I avoid some of the 1000-meter harassment that exists. That skin allowed my family to blend in when we moved to a very non-diverse community when I was a child. Other kids and their families weren't uncomfortable with me. My first professional job was a result of those relationships. 

If I (and my family) hadn't been able to do that, I would not have had the opportunities I did. Even with those opportunities, my path was still harder than my peers because of the actions of others (what would have happened to me had I been convicted of those assault charges those cops were trying so hard to hang on me? I shudder to think what would have become of me if I hadn't been able to hire a very good attorney, which isn't an option for many people of color. Without that aforementioned professional job, I would have been jailed for something I didn't do, and the domino effect of that...)

This isn't to say poor me. This is to highlight that there are plenty of people who simply don't understand that failure is not dependent on one's work ethic...many people simply get fewer chances when they do fail (which we all invariably do at points in our lives, even when we give our best effort.) The margin of error is just so much smaller when you have significantly reduced opportunities compared to others.

Matt, I'm really not saying it is easy.  Especially for people who come from certain areas and neighborhoods.  If most of the people in a neighborhood behave a certain way, authorities will tend to treat all from that neighborhood based on the worst common denominator.  And I'm not saying there are not hurdles to overcome or that there are some people out there who prejudge people.  I'm just saying that if someone truly wants to overcome the obstacles, society in this country overall, is willing to give people a chance.  

I'm not a black man, so I don't totally understand.  I'll admit that.  But, there are plenty of examples of people out there - you being one - who have been able to overcome the odds and prejudices of some out there to be successful.  I believe in personal responsibility.  I don't believe in blaming "the man" for being held down...

This is a baseball website, so I think maybe I'll back off this subject right now...  I apologize if I have offended anyone.  That was not my intention at all.

In case anyone wonders where the real Swampboy went, I temporarily set aside my normal hardline attitude toward politics when this veered in that direction because people are being polite.

Kaepernick disrespected our national anthem and flag.  Many people have sacrificed so that he could have the freedoms he has today.

He has the right to speak his mind and demonstrate.  He should have chosen his own private time, away from the team and organization event.

roothog66 posted:

It wasn't the first time he had done it - just the first time it was noticed. he was asked and he gave an explanation. Once it became a big media story, follow up probably felt necessary. I'm personally glad he spoke up. We have a big time race problem in this country, especially as it concerns the legal system (which I am a part of and see every day) and the police. If the this starts conversation, then I'm all for it. Just pointing to the fact that there are some millionaire Blacks in the entertainment industry and saying, "See, there's no problem - they made it just fine," doesn't work for me.

One may be excused in these cynical times for wondering if the media had help noticing it after they missed it first two times.

I don't yet see how his gesture can be constructive--the reactions so far have mostly sharpened the divisions that were already too apparent. 

I wish I had a better idea what would be constructive beyond just trying to dwell peaceably in my own small circles and encouraging others to do the same.

Swampboy posted:

In case anyone wonders where the real Swampboy went, I temporarily set aside my normal hardline attitude toward politics when this veered in that direction because people are being polite.

And we will remain polite ;- )

My issue is the quote...he named his issue as THE COUNTRY.  Is there a race issue, yup, has been and always will be in every culture across the world.  When I was in 8th grade I had to do a paper on Apartheid, for those who don't know what that was, look it up, if you think the US race relations are bad I say, it isn't perfect but it could be worse.

I am a woman in a scientific field.  I've  had professors and colleagues that discounted what I had to say based on my gender alone.  However, I blame THEM for their ignorance, not THE COUNTRY.  Until THE COUNTRY passes laws to specifically oppress a segment of the population I do wish people would leave THE COUNTRY out of it.

CaCO3Girl posted:

Swampboy posted:

In case anyone wonders where the real Swampboy went, I temporarily set aside my normal hardline attitude toward politics when this veered in that direction because people are being polite.

And we will remain polite ;- )

My issue is the quote...he named his issue as THE COUNTRY.  Is there a race issue, yup, has been and always will be in every culture across the world.  When I was in 8th grade I had to do a paper on Apartheid, for those who don't know what that was, look it up, if you think the US race relations are bad I say, it isn't perfect but it could be worse.

I am a woman in a scientific field.  I've  had professors and colleagues that discounted what I had to say based on my gender alone.  However, I blame THEM for their ignorance, not THE COUNTRY.  Until THE COUNTRY passes laws to specifically oppress a segment of the population I do wish people would leave THE COUNTRY out of it.

Which brings up another issue altogether. Why do we always treat COUNTRY as if it's a football team. We cheer it on and proclaim our country to be "the greatest in the world," "the strongest," etc. This seems to be a fairly new concept in human history.

I used to joke in law school that I wanted to open a firm that only specialized in Jehovah's Witness First Amendment issues. Almost every important First Amendment case was a JH initiated case.

The current problem is more than a racial one - it's a police issue. It just happens that the burden falls more on African-Americans than any other group. The problem, from my standpoint is the hardline taken by many. The problem isn't even the small handful of "bad" officers - the problem is actually the "good" ones. Every time a Black youth is shot and killed, the African-American community sees it as an outrage. Why? Because, so often, it is outrageous. Then what happens? The police unions and the "good" officers circle the wagons. They don't differentiate between justified shootings and basic homicide. They back their own, regardless of the circumstances. This makes it difficult for those in the communities affected to have an objective view. I can't help but think things would be different if after one of the more obvious unjustified shootings occurred, the police departments and unions would stand up and say, "This is murder. We do not condone this and something must and will be done." That attitude would go a long ways toward credibility when backing up an officer of an actual justified shooting.

How can you expect a group of people who have been systematically singled out and mistreated by the system for 400 years to forget all that and trust the system in one or two generations? It takes longer than that and it takes a longer history of transparent justice and equality to achieve that - it can't just be lip service.

For those of you who jump on the Black Lives Matter movement with "shouldn't it be 'All Lives Matter," remember this - White lives have always been assumed to matter. It might be better to think of it as "Black Lives Matter, too." That's more the point that needs to be made.

This country (and it's anthem) stands for a lot of things, including the very important aspect highlighted in the OP's link.  Giving proper respect to what it stands for during anthems and such does not mean you agree with every problem issue that exists from sea to shining sea.  With escalated race and police-related issues recently, many athletes of various races have stood up and done the right thing - call for everyone to come together.  Many have taken the additional step, publicly or otherwise, to actively try to help make that happen.

Kaepernick has the right to do what he did.  But, I think his actions are only going to have a negative affect on his supposed cause.  And I think he just hasn't taken the time or put in the real effort to figure out how he can best affect those issues he is concerned with.  We have reached saturation with the negative press and the  protests.  There is plenty of current spotlight on these issues.  His action seems like just a late "me too", like so many protesters who are clearly just there to be seen instead of truly engaged in the cause.  He is in the public eye.  JMO, but he has an opportunity to help if he really wants, but instead he is contributing to moving things backward.

I saw an episode of "Cleveland Hustles" last night.  For those who don't know about it, LeBron is involved in gathering investors to support business entrepreneurs bringing new businesses into areas of the city that could use a boost.  This is actively doing something about the problem.  Many others are actively engaging while out of the media spotlight.  These are the things that are going to truly help get things going in the right direction.  But these things actually take work and commitment - not just sitting on the anthem and causing a whole lot of collateral damage without really thinking through the consequences and ignoring all the efforts of those who have made great sacrifice trying to make this country great.

I say Kaepernick should donate all of his money to all those he says have been victims of this unjust society.   

Not standing for our National Anthem does nothing to help oppression. There is no doubt we have a problem and everyone knows it.  Too many senseless killings.

One thing that I have figured out over the years is that we all might have a chance to be successful in life, but we all don't have an equal chance for success. We don't all grow up having the same resources or peaceful environment.  Poverty is a big problem that affects many African Americans, and it also affects many whites and other races.  Where there is poverty there will be crime.  When people grow up with crime all around them they are much more likely to get involved in crime.

All a person has to do is go see what poverty stricken areas look like, but be careful.  Sure some escape that life, but it ain't easy and so many don't escape.  It is much easier for the ordinary kid and even easier for the kid that has everything he needs.

So to me the biggest problem is economics.  If you live in an unsafe environment where gun violence is an everyday problem, you think about survival first and becoming successful later.  It truly is a jungle out there for many people.  Not enough ever get out of that jungle.  But because this is America some do.  

No matter what someone believes.  There are many ways for people to voice their opinions, especially if they are well known athletes or celebrities.  Do your protesting elsewhere, but stand up for the National Anthem.  If for no other reason, because it stands for the very freedom you have to not stand up.  It is respecting those that gave us that freedom!

After all the National Anthems this guy has been through, why does he choose now to show disrespect?  Sure he has the right to do it and I have the right to wish he would leave the country.  Maybe go somewhere where those freedoms don't exist.

PGStaff posted:

Sure he has the right to do it and I have the right to wish he would leave the country.  Maybe go somewhere where those freedoms don't exist.

What this says is, "You have the right, just don't exercise it."

I respectfully disagree on not having the same opportunities.  I think we all have the same opportunities we just don't have the same opportunities to good parenting.   

bballman posted:

Kaepernick has a right to do this.  However, people also have a right to disagree and express their displeasure with it.  People can legally burn the flag.  It doesn't mean I am ever going to condone it.  With all due respect to Swampboy and other veterans who have given to this country, this type of behavior is despicable.  I understand your point Swamp, but people also have the right to disagree with this viewpoint.  They have the right to teach their kids that this is NOT the type of behavior to emulate.  I'm sure you don't disagree with me.

What is most infuriating to me is this is coming from a man who is making $19 million a year.  In what country are a group of people supposedly "oppressed", but can make $19 million a year??  I was flipping in and out of the VMA awards last night and saw almost NO white people.  Every one of the "oppressed" people that were on the stage were multi millionaires.  They all certainly have MUCH more money than me.  I think this idea of an "oppressed" people is getting blown WAY out of proportion.

America remains the land of opportunity.  It remains the land where if you work hard enough and want to succeed enough, you can do whatever you want.  This goes for sports, music, business, trades, whatever.  I just think when you have a multi millionaire protesting that his race is "oppressed", there is something wrong there...

Of course, this is JMHO, but I don't think anyone is going to convince me otherwise.

BBall - This sums up how I feel quite nicely.  Additionally, I don't have a problem with folks deciding to not stand for the anthem, or to salute the flag.  Where I have a problem is his despicable stance against the very people that have protected his safety.  These men and women put their lives on the line every day, and provide security for the very sporting events that he participates in!  I think he is completely out of touch with reality, and I am really surprised at the support he is receiving.

roothog66 posted:

I

Swampboy posted:

roothog66 posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

Swampboy posted:

Part of growing up is learning that the world doesn't revolve around you and most people really don't want to know what you think about everything. I recently went to a religious service of a group of which I am not a member. I didn't care for it and disagreed with much of it. I suppose I could have made my disagreement known by refusing to stand or kneel at the designated times and by holding a news conference in the lobby to explain why. But I didn't. Nobody asked my opinion, so I kept it to myself and smiled politely.  Would that have been too much to ask of this player?

This generation of youths seems to have a large percentage that don't understand this. 

He didn't give his opinion until asked. It was noticed by an NFL TV reporter who asked his opinion - he gave it. I think he tried to make it clear he wasn't seeking publicity, but rather just doing what his conscience told him to do. I don't have a problem with that. As a veteran who actually risked his life and took the lives of others in the name of that flag, I'm proud to live in a country where you can choose to act on your own values and morals and not have it forced on you.

Roothog, 

Generally speaking, people do not make it clear they're not seeking publicity by granting interviews to national media and then following up with even longer interviews.

It wasn't the first time he had done it - just the first time it was noticed. he was asked and he gave an explanation. Once it became a big media story, follow up probably felt necessary. I'm personally glad he spoke up. We have a big time race problem in this country, especially as it concerns the legal system (which I am a part of and see every day) and the police. If the this starts conversation, then I'm all for it. Just pointing to the fact that there are some millionaire Blacks in the entertainment industry and saying, "See, there's no problem - they made it just fine," doesn't work for me.

I have a completely different stance on the issue, and frankly I have heard enough of the race card.  I believe it is more a socio-economic issue.  The oppressed are really those with no money.  I grew up with a single mom who had 4 kids.  We lived on Welfare, Food Stamps, etc.  Neither my mom, father, or siblings ever graduated high school, and I am now working on my MBA.  Did I have the same opportunities as other folks?  I would say definitely not.  I didn't have any relatives that could give me a break here or there, I had to rise up on my own and strive to make my life better.  I could have made a ton of excuses and gone down the path of 2 of my siblings.  

The facts are that there are more opportunities for those with money, than those without.  To put it in a way that most can understand, just look at the game of baseball.  My wife and I are middle class, and we couldn't afford to send Ryno to every function that he was invited to, but we did our best.  I can't imagine what it is like for those that are less fortunate...black, white, etc...

One of the drawbacks of social media is it has led many people to believe everyone should be aware of what they think. 

Even on hsbaseballweb at some time or another almost all of us have stood on the soapbox and been a columnist about something.

Allow me to add yet another perspective.  In 1988, I was coaching baseball in the former Soviet Union.  I asked those young men why they were playing baseball and the majority told me that they were forced to play.  Some said that not only were they forced to play but also if they didn't do well, they would never see their families again.  The time I had there was too brief and very intense.  I got close to a bunch of those young men.  All of them wanted to come to America.  They wanted the freedoms we have here.  Many were from areas that had been subjugated. 

On July 4th, 1988, some of those young men went out to the flag pole of a soccer stadium in Kaunas, Lithuania, four of those young men lowered the Soviet Flag and ran up the Star Spangled Banner to honor me and our country.  They were all arrested. I have been told one died as he was sent to Afghanistan.   Kapernick states that people are oppressed in America.  He has no clue.