NFL players can have their opinion on this topic all they like, I am a fan of this viewpoint for sure! Wasn't a Hokie fan so much until I saw this!
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Thank you, great share!
- Amen
Saw this and loved this. HS coaches should jump on this. The kids will learn and share with their other friends. Actually, maybe a few of the dads will start learning from their sons. I was kind of shocked the past baseball season...
I love this country!
Someone who won't stand for our National Anthem should not live in this country, let alone make millions playing a game. There are other ways to address issues. Seems like acts like that just escalate the problems. Veterans come in all faiths, race and economic backgrounds. Maybe everyone needs to know the history of the Star Spangled Banner.
Amen to that! That's why when I saw this I just had to share! Seems like the media allows sports figures too many opportunities to express their rights and opinions in often very inappropriate ways....but then again, that's what makes our country so much better than any other place in the world! God Bless the USA!!
Whatever do you mean "wasn't a Hokie fan"? 
What a teaching moment by Buzz (Tech's head basketball coach)!
Hokieone
PG Totally agree.
Permit me to offer a few thoughts in an effort to turn this thread to something related to our site and away from politics:
I served in the military for 30 years, so I think my patriotism cred is solid enough to withstand whatever hits I take from saying I'm not fond of coerced public demonstrations of loyalty.
Thus, I think the team's official position is correct. They encourage but don't require participation. Players may be citizens of other countries. They may have urgent pre-game matters to tend to. They simply may not want to participate. The team gives them the choice. That seems reasonable to me.
However, players who choose not to participate should do so in a manner that doesn't distract from the business at hand, which is playing together as a team to win a game.
Many players feel strongly about all sorts of political or religious issues. Presumably, they don't all agree. Calling attention to one's individual opinions moments before game time when teammates are in the final stages of their pre-game preparation is not likely to have a positive effect on the team's focus, motivation, unity, and performance. This makes the demonstration selfish.
In addition to being selfish, it's bad manners. The playing field, sidelines and dugouts at sporting events are not forums for players to express opinions on subjects unrelated to why they are on the field. The team owners invest a lot of money creating the game day stadium experience for the fans, and it is rude to hijack that experience for one's own purposes. (Also, that carefully scripted game day experience is designed to keep people buying tickets so the teams can pay the players.)
Part of growing up is learning that the world doesn't revolve around you and most people really don't want to know what you think about everything. I recently went to a religious service of a group of which I am not a member. I didn't care for it and disagreed with much of it. I suppose I could have made my disagreement known by refusing to stand or kneel at the designated times and by holding a news conference in the lobby to explain why. But I didn't. Nobody asked my opinion, so I kept it to myself and smiled politely. Would that have been too much to ask of this player?
Swampboy posted:Part of growing up is learning that the world doesn't revolve around you and most people really don't want to know what you think about everything. I recently went to a religious service of a group of which I am not a member. I didn't care for it and disagreed with much of it. I suppose I could have made my disagreement known by refusing to stand or kneel at the designated times and by holding a news conference in the lobby to explain why. But I didn't. Nobody asked my opinion, so I kept it to myself and smiled politely. Would that have been too much to ask of this player?
This generation of youths seems to have a large percentage that don't understand this.
CaCO3Girl posted:Swampboy posted:Part of growing up is learning that the world doesn't revolve around you and most people really don't want to know what you think about everything. I recently went to a religious service of a group of which I am not a member. I didn't care for it and disagreed with much of it. I suppose I could have made my disagreement known by refusing to stand or kneel at the designated times and by holding a news conference in the lobby to explain why. But I didn't. Nobody asked my opinion, so I kept it to myself and smiled politely. Would that have been too much to ask of this player?
This generation of youths seems to have a large percentage that don't understand this.
He didn't give his opinion until asked. It was noticed by an NFL TV reporter who asked his opinion - he gave it. I think he tried to make it clear he wasn't seeking publicity, but rather just doing what his conscience told him to do. I don't have a problem with that. As a veteran who actually risked his life and took the lives of others in the name of that flag, I'm proud to live in a country where you can choose to act on your own values and morals and not have it forced on you.
CaCO3Girl posted:Swampboy posted:Part of growing up is learning that the world doesn't revolve around you and most people really don't want to know what you think about everything. I recently went to a religious service of a group of which I am not a member. I didn't care for it and disagreed with much of it. I suppose I could have made my disagreement known by refusing to stand or kneel at the designated times and by holding a news conference in the lobby to explain why. But I didn't. Nobody asked my opinion, so I kept it to myself and smiled politely. Would that have been too much to ask of this player?
This generation of youths seems to have a large percentage that don't understand this.
Do you really believe that this generation of youths is different that past generations of youths in this?
roothog66 posted:CaCO3Girl posted:Swampboy posted:Part of growing up is learning that the world doesn't revolve around you and most people really don't want to know what you think about everything. I recently went to a religious service of a group of which I am not a member. I didn't care for it and disagreed with much of it. I suppose I could have made my disagreement known by refusing to stand or kneel at the designated times and by holding a news conference in the lobby to explain why. But I didn't. Nobody asked my opinion, so I kept it to myself and smiled politely. Would that have been too much to ask of this player?
This generation of youths seems to have a large percentage that don't understand this.
Do you really believe that this generation of youths is different that past generations of youths in this?
Yes, because everything is so instantaneous now with Facebook updates, Instagram, and other social media. Someone posted this awhile ago on here but I think it bears bringing it up again.
"Presently, I am trying to make friends outside of Facebook while applying the same principles.
Therefore, every day I go down on the street and tell the passers-by what I have eaten, how I feel, what I have done the night before and what I will do tomorrow night. Then I give them pictures of my family, my dog and me gardening and spending time in my pool. I also listen to their conversations and I tell them I love them.
And it works.
I already have 3 persons following me: 2 police officers and a psychiatrist."
roothog66 posted:CaCO3Girl posted:Swampboy posted:Part of growing up is learning that the world doesn't revolve around you and most people really don't want to know what you think about everything. I recently went to a religious service of a group of which I am not a member. I didn't care for it and disagreed with much of it. I suppose I could have made my disagreement known by refusing to stand or kneel at the designated times and by holding a news conference in the lobby to explain why. But I didn't. Nobody asked my opinion, so I kept it to myself and smiled politely. Would that have been too much to ask of this player?
This generation of youths seems to have a large percentage that don't understand this.
He didn't give his opinion until asked. It was noticed by an NFL TV reporter who asked his opinion - he gave it. I think he tried to make it clear he wasn't seeking publicity, but rather just doing what his conscience told him to do. I don't have a problem with that. As a veteran who actually risked his life and took the lives of others in the name of that flag, I'm proud to live in a country where you can choose to act on your own values and morals and not have it forced on you.
I agree entirely. The greatest thing about the US is the right to feel it isn't the greatest.
As a Boomer I have to stick up for my generation. We are just as absorbed in our own opinions and activities as any generation before or after. Were we not, Facebook would not be valued over $300 Billion. (Today's kids, AKA Generation Z, are not nearly as active on Facebook, except in private chats and groups; too many old people there. They are on Instagram, Snapchat, and to a lesser extent Twitter)
roothog66 posted:CaCO3Girl posted:Swampboy posted:Part of growing up is learning that the world doesn't revolve around you and most people really don't want to know what you think about everything. I recently went to a religious service of a group of which I am not a member. I didn't care for it and disagreed with much of it. I suppose I could have made my disagreement known by refusing to stand or kneel at the designated times and by holding a news conference in the lobby to explain why. But I didn't. Nobody asked my opinion, so I kept it to myself and smiled politely. Would that have been too much to ask of this player?
This generation of youths seems to have a large percentage that don't understand this.
He didn't give his opinion until asked. It was noticed by an NFL TV reporter who asked his opinion - he gave it. I think he tried to make it clear he wasn't seeking publicity, but rather just doing what his conscience told him to do. I don't have a problem with that. As a veteran who actually risked his life and took the lives of others in the name of that flag, I'm proud to live in a country where you can choose to act on your own values and morals and not have it forced on you.
If you sit out the national anthem you are GOING to be asked, and he had his soundbite ready.
Kaepernick has a right to do this. However, people also have a right to disagree and express their displeasure with it. People can legally burn the flag. It doesn't mean I am ever going to condone it. With all due respect to Swampboy and other veterans who have given to this country, this type of behavior is despicable. I understand your point Swamp, but people also have the right to disagree with this viewpoint. They have the right to teach their kids that this is NOT the type of behavior to emulate. I'm sure you don't disagree with me.
What is most infuriating to me is this is coming from a man who is making $19 million a year. In what country are a group of people supposedly "oppressed", but can make $19 million a year?? I was flipping in and out of the VMA awards last night and saw almost NO white people. Every one of the "oppressed" people that were on the stage were multi millionaires. They all certainly have MUCH more money than me. I think this idea of an "oppressed" people is getting blown WAY out of proportion.
America remains the land of opportunity. It remains the land where if you work hard enough and want to succeed enough, you can do whatever you want. This goes for sports, music, business, trades, whatever. I just think when you have a multi millionaire protesting that his race is "oppressed", there is something wrong there...
Of course, this is JMHO, but I don't think anyone is going to convince me otherwise.
roothog66 posted:CaCO3Girl posted:Swampboy posted:Part of growing up is learning that the world doesn't revolve around you and most people really don't want to know what you think about everything. I recently went to a religious service of a group of which I am not a member. I didn't care for it and disagreed with much of it. I suppose I could have made my disagreement known by refusing to stand or kneel at the designated times and by holding a news conference in the lobby to explain why. But I didn't. Nobody asked my opinion, so I kept it to myself and smiled politely. Would that have been too much to ask of this player?
This generation of youths seems to have a large percentage that don't understand this.
He didn't give his opinion until asked. It was noticed by an NFL TV reporter who asked his opinion - he gave it. I think he tried to make it clear he wasn't seeking publicity, but rather just doing what his conscience told him to do. I don't have a problem with that. As a veteran who actually risked his life and took the lives of others in the name of that flag, I'm proud to live in a country where you can choose to act on your own values and morals and not have it forced on you.
Roothog,
Generally speaking, people do not make it clear they're not seeking publicity by granting interviews to national media and then following up with even longer interviews.
BBallMan,
Not sure exactly where you thought we disagreed. We both agree he had the right to do it. We both agree people have the right to express disapproval of it. And it doesn't look like either of us thought it was a good idea. What am I missing?
I
Swampboy posted:roothog66 posted:CaCO3Girl posted:Swampboy posted:Part of growing up is learning that the world doesn't revolve around you and most people really don't want to know what you think about everything. I recently went to a religious service of a group of which I am not a member. I didn't care for it and disagreed with much of it. I suppose I could have made my disagreement known by refusing to stand or kneel at the designated times and by holding a news conference in the lobby to explain why. But I didn't. Nobody asked my opinion, so I kept it to myself and smiled politely. Would that have been too much to ask of this player?
This generation of youths seems to have a large percentage that don't understand this.
He didn't give his opinion until asked. It was noticed by an NFL TV reporter who asked his opinion - he gave it. I think he tried to make it clear he wasn't seeking publicity, but rather just doing what his conscience told him to do. I don't have a problem with that. As a veteran who actually risked his life and took the lives of others in the name of that flag, I'm proud to live in a country where you can choose to act on your own values and morals and not have it forced on you.
Roothog,
Generally speaking, people do not make it clear they're not seeking publicity by granting interviews to national media and then following up with even longer interviews.
It wasn't the first time he had done it - just the first time it was noticed. he was asked and he gave an explanation. Once it became a big media story, follow up probably felt necessary. I'm personally glad he spoke up. We have a big time race problem in this country, especially as it concerns the legal system (which I am a part of and see every day) and the police. If the this starts conversation, then I'm all for it. Just pointing to the fact that there are some millionaire Blacks in the entertainment industry and saying, "See, there's no problem - they made it just fine," doesn't work for me.
Did I just read where someone is citing the VMA awards as evidence that "this idea of an "oppressed" people is getting blown WAY out of proportion"? Did I also read that some QB making $19 million a year supports the same argument? I'm all for making an well reasoned argument, but those two pieces of "evidence" don't quite clear the bar in my mind.
I don't think you're missing anything Swamp. I just want to to be extra careful I'm not disrespecting you in any way.
Thank you for your service. 30 years is quite an accomplishment.
I'm making the argument that if people of any race or religion want to make something for themselves, they have the opportunity to do it in this country. Athletes and artists are just two obvious examples. There are PLENTY of other examples of minorities lifting themselves out of less than perfect conditions. Ben Carson is one example. Herman Cain is another. If you are so inclined, Barak Obama is another. If minorities were systematically "oppressed", none of these people would be where they are today.
bballman posted:Kaepernick has a right to do this. However, people also have a right to disagree and express their displeasure with it. People can legally burn the flag. It doesn't mean I am ever going to condone it. With all due respect to Swampboy and other veterans who have given to this country, this type of behavior is despicable. I understand your point Swamp, but people also have the right to disagree with this viewpoint. They have the right to teach their kids that this is NOT the type of behavior to emulate. I'm sure you don't disagree with me.
What is most infuriating to me is this is coming from a man who is making $19 million a year. In what country are a group of people supposedly "oppressed", but can make $19 million a year?? I was flipping in and out of the VMA awards last night and saw almost NO white people. Every one of the "oppressed" people that were on the stage were multi millionaires. They all certainly have MUCH more money than me. I think this idea of an "oppressed" people is getting blown WAY out of proportion.
America remains the land of opportunity. It remains the land where if you work hard enough and want to succeed enough, you can do whatever you want. This goes for sports, music, business, trades, whatever. I just think when you have a multi millionaire protesting that his race is "oppressed", there is something wrong there...
Of course, this is JMHO, but I don't think anyone is going to convince me otherwise.
The ones that either have not had as much oppression or have been able to overcome it are the ones who have the voice for others. I'm pretty successful, I would venture, and yet to get here I've been accosted by white supremacists, told I was only good for nigger work, and held in my home and arrested by cops who referred to me by both racial and religious slurs...and those are the OVERT acts. The majority of racially-based actions are covert and often unintentional. I'm very lucky that I am as light-skinned as I am, because at a glance, I just look like a white guy that tans well (except in the summer,) and I know I avoid some of the 1000-meter harassment that exists. That skin allowed my family to blend in when we moved to a very non-diverse community when I was a child. Other kids and their families weren't uncomfortable with me. My first professional job was a result of those relationships.
If I (and my family) hadn't been able to do that, I would not have had the opportunities I did. Even with those opportunities, my path was still harder than my peers because of the actions of others (what would have happened to me had I been convicted of those assault charges those cops were trying so hard to hang on me? I shudder to think what would have become of me if I hadn't been able to hire a very good attorney, which isn't an option for many people of color. Without that aforementioned professional job, I would have been jailed for something I didn't do, and the domino effect of that...)
This isn't to say poor me. This is to highlight that there are plenty of people who simply don't understand that failure is not dependent on one's work ethic...many people simply get fewer chances when they do fail (which we all invariably do at points in our lives, even when we give our best effort.) The margin of error is just so much smaller when you have significantly reduced opportunities compared to others.
Matt, I'm really not saying it is easy. Especially for people who come from certain areas and neighborhoods. If most of the people in a neighborhood behave a certain way, authorities will tend to treat all from that neighborhood based on the worst common denominator. And I'm not saying there are not hurdles to overcome or that there are some people out there who prejudge people. I'm just saying that if someone truly wants to overcome the obstacles, society in this country overall, is willing to give people a chance.
I'm not a black man, so I don't totally understand. I'll admit that. But, there are plenty of examples of people out there - you being one - who have been able to overcome the odds and prejudices of some out there to be successful. I believe in personal responsibility. I don't believe in blaming "the man" for being held down...
This is a baseball website, so I think maybe I'll back off this subject right now... I apologize if I have offended anyone. That was not my intention at all.
In case anyone wonders where the real Swampboy went, I temporarily set aside my normal hardline attitude toward politics when this veered in that direction because people are being polite.
Kaepernick disrespected our national anthem and flag. Many people have sacrificed so that he could have the freedoms he has today.
He has the right to speak his mind and demonstrate. He should have chosen his own private time, away from the team and organization event.
roothog66 posted:It wasn't the first time he had done it - just the first time it was noticed. he was asked and he gave an explanation. Once it became a big media story, follow up probably felt necessary. I'm personally glad he spoke up. We have a big time race problem in this country, especially as it concerns the legal system (which I am a part of and see every day) and the police. If the this starts conversation, then I'm all for it. Just pointing to the fact that there are some millionaire Blacks in the entertainment industry and saying, "See, there's no problem - they made it just fine," doesn't work for me.
One may be excused in these cynical times for wondering if the media had help noticing it after they missed it first two times.
I don't yet see how his gesture can be constructive--the reactions so far have mostly sharpened the divisions that were already too apparent.
I wish I had a better idea what would be constructive beyond just trying to dwell peaceably in my own small circles and encouraging others to do the same.
Swampboy posted:In case anyone wonders where the real Swampboy went, I temporarily set aside my normal hardline attitude toward politics when this veered in that direction because people are being polite.
And we will remain polite ;- )
My issue is the quote...he named his issue as THE COUNTRY. Is there a race issue, yup, has been and always will be in every culture across the world. When I was in 8th grade I had to do a paper on Apartheid, for those who don't know what that was, look it up, if you think the US race relations are bad I say, it isn't perfect but it could be worse.
I am a woman in a scientific field. I've had professors and colleagues that discounted what I had to say based on my gender alone. However, I blame THEM for their ignorance, not THE COUNTRY. Until THE COUNTRY passes laws to specifically oppress a segment of the population I do wish people would leave THE COUNTRY out of it.
CaCO3Girl posted:Swampboy posted:In case anyone wonders where the real Swampboy went, I temporarily set aside my normal hardline attitude toward politics when this veered in that direction because people are being polite.
And we will remain polite ;- )
My issue is the quote...he named his issue as THE COUNTRY. Is there a race issue, yup, has been and always will be in every culture across the world. When I was in 8th grade I had to do a paper on Apartheid, for those who don't know what that was, look it up, if you think the US race relations are bad I say, it isn't perfect but it could be worse.
I am a woman in a scientific field. I've had professors and colleagues that discounted what I had to say based on my gender alone. However, I blame THEM for their ignorance, not THE COUNTRY. Until THE COUNTRY passes laws to specifically oppress a segment of the population I do wish people would leave THE COUNTRY out of it.
Which brings up another issue altogether. Why do we always treat COUNTRY as if it's a football team. We cheer it on and proclaim our country to be "the greatest in the world," "the strongest," etc. This seems to be a fairly new concept in human history.
I used to joke in law school that I wanted to open a firm that only specialized in Jehovah's Witness First Amendment issues. Almost every important First Amendment case was a JH initiated case.
The current problem is more than a racial one - it's a police issue. It just happens that the burden falls more on African-Americans than any other group. The problem, from my standpoint is the hardline taken by many. The problem isn't even the small handful of "bad" officers - the problem is actually the "good" ones. Every time a Black youth is shot and killed, the African-American community sees it as an outrage. Why? Because, so often, it is outrageous. Then what happens? The police unions and the "good" officers circle the wagons. They don't differentiate between justified shootings and basic homicide. They back their own, regardless of the circumstances. This makes it difficult for those in the communities affected to have an objective view. I can't help but think things would be different if after one of the more obvious unjustified shootings occurred, the police departments and unions would stand up and say, "This is murder. We do not condone this and something must and will be done." That attitude would go a long ways toward credibility when backing up an officer of an actual justified shooting.
How can you expect a group of people who have been systematically singled out and mistreated by the system for 400 years to forget all that and trust the system in one or two generations? It takes longer than that and it takes a longer history of transparent justice and equality to achieve that - it can't just be lip service.
For those of you who jump on the Black Lives Matter movement with "shouldn't it be 'All Lives Matter," remember this - White lives have always been assumed to matter. It might be better to think of it as "Black Lives Matter, too." That's more the point that needs to be made.
This country (and it's anthem) stands for a lot of things, including the very important aspect highlighted in the OP's link. Giving proper respect to what it stands for during anthems and such does not mean you agree with every problem issue that exists from sea to shining sea. With escalated race and police-related issues recently, many athletes of various races have stood up and done the right thing - call for everyone to come together. Many have taken the additional step, publicly or otherwise, to actively try to help make that happen.
Kaepernick has the right to do what he did. But, I think his actions are only going to have a negative affect on his supposed cause. And I think he just hasn't taken the time or put in the real effort to figure out how he can best affect those issues he is concerned with. We have reached saturation with the negative press and the protests. There is plenty of current spotlight on these issues. His action seems like just a late "me too", like so many protesters who are clearly just there to be seen instead of truly engaged in the cause. He is in the public eye. JMO, but he has an opportunity to help if he really wants, but instead he is contributing to moving things backward.
I saw an episode of "Cleveland Hustles" last night. For those who don't know about it, LeBron is involved in gathering investors to support business entrepreneurs bringing new businesses into areas of the city that could use a boost. This is actively doing something about the problem. Many others are actively engaging while out of the media spotlight. These are the things that are going to truly help get things going in the right direction. But these things actually take work and commitment - not just sitting on the anthem and causing a whole lot of collateral damage without really thinking through the consequences and ignoring all the efforts of those who have made great sacrifice trying to make this country great.
I say Kaepernick should donate all of his money to all those he says have been victims of this unjust society.
Not standing for our National Anthem does nothing to help oppression. There is no doubt we have a problem and everyone knows it. Too many senseless killings.
One thing that I have figured out over the years is that we all might have a chance to be successful in life, but we all don't have an equal chance for success. We don't all grow up having the same resources or peaceful environment. Poverty is a big problem that affects many African Americans, and it also affects many whites and other races. Where there is poverty there will be crime. When people grow up with crime all around them they are much more likely to get involved in crime.
All a person has to do is go see what poverty stricken areas look like, but be careful. Sure some escape that life, but it ain't easy and so many don't escape. It is much easier for the ordinary kid and even easier for the kid that has everything he needs.
So to me the biggest problem is economics. If you live in an unsafe environment where gun violence is an everyday problem, you think about survival first and becoming successful later. It truly is a jungle out there for many people. Not enough ever get out of that jungle. But because this is America some do.
No matter what someone believes. There are many ways for people to voice their opinions, especially if they are well known athletes or celebrities. Do your protesting elsewhere, but stand up for the National Anthem. If for no other reason, because it stands for the very freedom you have to not stand up. It is respecting those that gave us that freedom!
After all the National Anthems this guy has been through, why does he choose now to show disrespect? Sure he has the right to do it and I have the right to wish he would leave the country. Maybe go somewhere where those freedoms don't exist.
PGStaff posted:Sure he has the right to do it and I have the right to wish he would leave the country. Maybe go somewhere where those freedoms don't exist.
What this says is, "You have the right, just don't exercise it."
I respectfully disagree on not having the same opportunities. I think we all have the same opportunities we just don't have the same opportunities to good parenting.
bballman posted:Kaepernick has a right to do this. However, people also have a right to disagree and express their displeasure with it. People can legally burn the flag. It doesn't mean I am ever going to condone it. With all due respect to Swampboy and other veterans who have given to this country, this type of behavior is despicable. I understand your point Swamp, but people also have the right to disagree with this viewpoint. They have the right to teach their kids that this is NOT the type of behavior to emulate. I'm sure you don't disagree with me.
What is most infuriating to me is this is coming from a man who is making $19 million a year. In what country are a group of people supposedly "oppressed", but can make $19 million a year?? I was flipping in and out of the VMA awards last night and saw almost NO white people. Every one of the "oppressed" people that were on the stage were multi millionaires. They all certainly have MUCH more money than me. I think this idea of an "oppressed" people is getting blown WAY out of proportion.
America remains the land of opportunity. It remains the land where if you work hard enough and want to succeed enough, you can do whatever you want. This goes for sports, music, business, trades, whatever. I just think when you have a multi millionaire protesting that his race is "oppressed", there is something wrong there...
Of course, this is JMHO, but I don't think anyone is going to convince me otherwise.
BBall - This sums up how I feel quite nicely. Additionally, I don't have a problem with folks deciding to not stand for the anthem, or to salute the flag. Where I have a problem is his despicable stance against the very people that have protected his safety. These men and women put their lives on the line every day, and provide security for the very sporting events that he participates in! I think he is completely out of touch with reality, and I am really surprised at the support he is receiving.
roothog66 posted:I
Swampboy posted:roothog66 posted:CaCO3Girl posted:Swampboy posted:Part of growing up is learning that the world doesn't revolve around you and most people really don't want to know what you think about everything. I recently went to a religious service of a group of which I am not a member. I didn't care for it and disagreed with much of it. I suppose I could have made my disagreement known by refusing to stand or kneel at the designated times and by holding a news conference in the lobby to explain why. But I didn't. Nobody asked my opinion, so I kept it to myself and smiled politely. Would that have been too much to ask of this player?
This generation of youths seems to have a large percentage that don't understand this.
He didn't give his opinion until asked. It was noticed by an NFL TV reporter who asked his opinion - he gave it. I think he tried to make it clear he wasn't seeking publicity, but rather just doing what his conscience told him to do. I don't have a problem with that. As a veteran who actually risked his life and took the lives of others in the name of that flag, I'm proud to live in a country where you can choose to act on your own values and morals and not have it forced on you.
Roothog,
Generally speaking, people do not make it clear they're not seeking publicity by granting interviews to national media and then following up with even longer interviews.
It wasn't the first time he had done it - just the first time it was noticed. he was asked and he gave an explanation. Once it became a big media story, follow up probably felt necessary. I'm personally glad he spoke up. We have a big time race problem in this country, especially as it concerns the legal system (which I am a part of and see every day) and the police. If the this starts conversation, then I'm all for it. Just pointing to the fact that there are some millionaire Blacks in the entertainment industry and saying, "See, there's no problem - they made it just fine," doesn't work for me.
I have a completely different stance on the issue, and frankly I have heard enough of the race card. I believe it is more a socio-economic issue. The oppressed are really those with no money. I grew up with a single mom who had 4 kids. We lived on Welfare, Food Stamps, etc. Neither my mom, father, or siblings ever graduated high school, and I am now working on my MBA. Did I have the same opportunities as other folks? I would say definitely not. I didn't have any relatives that could give me a break here or there, I had to rise up on my own and strive to make my life better. I could have made a ton of excuses and gone down the path of 2 of my siblings.
The facts are that there are more opportunities for those with money, than those without. To put it in a way that most can understand, just look at the game of baseball. My wife and I are middle class, and we couldn't afford to send Ryno to every function that he was invited to, but we did our best. I can't imagine what it is like for those that are less fortunate...black, white, etc...
One of the drawbacks of social media is it has led many people to believe everyone should be aware of what they think.
Even on hsbaseballweb at some time or another almost all of us have stood on the soapbox and been a columnist about something.
Allow me to add yet another perspective. In 1988, I was coaching baseball in the former Soviet Union. I asked those young men why they were playing baseball and the majority told me that they were forced to play. Some said that not only were they forced to play but also if they didn't do well, they would never see their families again. The time I had there was too brief and very intense. I got close to a bunch of those young men. All of them wanted to come to America. They wanted the freedoms we have here. Many were from areas that had been subjugated.
On July 4th, 1988, some of those young men went out to the flag pole of a soccer stadium in Kaunas, Lithuania, four of those young men lowered the Soviet Flag and ran up the Star Spangled Banner to honor me and our country. They were all arrested. I have been told one died as he was sent to Afghanistan. Kapernick states that people are oppressed in America. He has no clue.
Matt13 posted:PGStaff posted:Sure he has the right to do it and I have the right to wish he would leave the country. Maybe go somewhere where those freedoms don't exist.
What this says is, "You have the right, just don't exercise it."
I don't think it says that at all. My issue is his disrespect. I couldn't care less that he didn't stand, it is the disrespect he showed by his statement...
Not a fan of him or his recent stance.....but it is his right. Whimsical is the word i would use to describe not only his decision to do this but his career as well.
2ndMarDiv posted:I respectfully disagree on not having the same opportunities. I think we all have the same opportunities we just don't have the same opportunities to good parenting.
Oh, there are definitely different opportunities. A person's money, family, and connections can surely provide better opportunities. I will give another example:
My cousin (Mom's Sister's Daughter) has a white mother, and a Mexican father. (Father from Mexico, mother from Alabama) My cousin grew up in Atlanta where I was born and lived the younger part of my life. Since my cousin was a minority, she was bussed across the city of Atlanta to a Performing Arts School. Guess who didn't get bussed across the city of Atlanta? You guessed it the poor, white kid that was her cousin. So different opportunities do exist for different people.
Yes , there are problems here as there are problems in many other countries, but it doesnt take away from this country being great. America is not perfect but it is the best I know. Although, I would NOT have used that moment to voice my displeasure. There is one question that keeps popping in my head and continues to be unanswered by most of the media and other people who have spoken their opinion about the topic. When is a good time for a person who feels they must speak out? When would I have chosen to make my position known to the general public if I so wanted? What is the best forum?
Many people agree that he should have stood for the National Anthem. So do I . But he felt compelled to act. This actually wasnt the first time he took a stance. I checked his social media sources. I wondered why he did not say anything during the 49rs run to the Super Bowl or the countless interviews he has done. Maybe something has happened recently to make him see things in a different light.
Please remember that different races stood elbow to elbow during civil rights protests. Many of those people stood at attention during the National Anthem. It was not the forum THEY chose to voice their displeasure at the injustices they saw at that time. Some chose to stand. Some chose to NOT stand also. Americans spirit.
You can see injustice while you are wealthy or poor, regardless of race, religion, sexual orientation, or the color of your parents. The race issue in America is a complex issue and not easily solved. Some injustices are small and easily overcome. When my daughter played softball and my son played baseball for the same sports program and the softball fields were horrible and impossible to play on while the baseball fields were well kept, I stood up and voiced my opinion to force a change. ( just one example... I thought it fit in well with this website ). But we wont solve the race issue quite as easily, I am afraid. We must try to do something? It is very divisive and ugly. I dont know where I would begin to solve it. Not during pre game. Probably during post game.....maybe not even in the context of a sporting event....but I dont have the answer. I dont know WHEN.
God Bless this country, where a man is free to voice his displeasure without fear of persecution by the government. In many other countries that would not be possible. THAT is a right my family has defended and I will gladly defend. Over and over. Even if I dont agree with NOT standing for the Anthem. I will ALWAYS agree with trying to make the world and more specifically, America, a better place. I love this country.
rynoattack posted:2ndMarDiv posted:I respectfully disagree on not having the same opportunities. I think we all have the same opportunities we just don't have the same opportunities to good parenting.
Oh, there are definitely different opportunities. A person's money, family, and connections can surely provide better opportunities. I will give another example:
My cousin (Mom's Sister's Daughter) has a white mother, and a Mexican father. (Father from Mexico, mother from Alabama) My cousin grew up in Atlanta where I was born and lived the younger part of my life. Since my cousin was a minority, she was bussed across the city of Atlanta to a Performing Arts School. Guess who didn't get bussed across the city of Atlanta? You guessed it the poor, white kid that was her cousin. So different opportunities do exist for different people.
That must have been a huge school if all the hispanic, half hispanic, and I assume all other minority students in the greater Atlanta area, were bused there to the exclusion of any and all poor white kids - or rich white kids for that matter. Wait, that's probably not what really happened.
Again, if someone wants to put forward a reasonable argument, please do so. Citing Ben Carson, Herman Cain and, "if you are so inclined" Barack Obama (yea, I'll include him since he's the president of the United States) as examples proving the absence of "systematic oppression" is simply stupid (again, sort of like the VMA's). The remark about getting left out of the Performing Arts school is just as stupid. I realize this is the wrong forum to be discussing this topic in detail, but I cannot help resist in asking folks to be reasonable in their arguments. Does Brittany Spears represent the "oppressed white girl" that struggled and made it to the VMA's? Please stop citing the gross exceptions. Didn't the Yankees once send a little person to the plate to get walked? Maybe that instance should serve as inspiration for all little people to pursue a career in the MLB - sorry, that's what is known as a gross exception.
I'll stick to getting my baseball advice here. Think it's time to shut this thread down as I do not see it adding any value to the hsbaseball core.
2017LHPSCREWBALL, are you suggesting that there are so few blacks that are successful that it's not worth mentioning the several that come to mind? Do you want me to look up some statistics showing how many black people make over $50,000 per year? Or how many black people make more than what ever number of white people? There are PLENTY of blacks and other minorities who are living a very comfortable life. There are PLENTY of blacks and other minorities who have risen to positions of high management and power. I can't possibly sit here and list them all.
I'll leave it at that...
roothog66 posted:The problem isn't even the small handful of "bad" officers - the problem is actually the "good" ones. Every time a Black youth is shot and killed, the African-American community sees it as an outrage. Why? Because, so often, it is outrageous. Then what happens? The police unions and the "good" officers circle the wagons. They don't differentiate between justified shootings and basic homicide. They back their own, regardless of the circumstances.
I don't really see this as the case. What the "good" cops usually do is say "Let's investigate and find out what really happened". They don't jump to the conclusion that the cop is guilty or that the victim was guilty. That's the way it should be on both sides. There have been plenty of cops prosecuted and convicted for going over the line and committing a crime while wearing the uniform. There have been plenty acquitted. Everyone is too quick to judge these days...
2017LHPscrewball posted:rynoattack posted:2ndMarDiv posted:I respectfully disagree on not having the same opportunities. I think we all have the same opportunities we just don't have the same opportunities to good parenting.
Oh, there are definitely different opportunities. A person's money, family, and connections can surely provide better opportunities. I will give another example:
My cousin (Mom's Sister's Daughter) has a white mother, and a Mexican father. (Father from Mexico, mother from Alabama) My cousin grew up in Atlanta where I was born and lived the younger part of my life. Since my cousin was a minority, she was bussed across the city of Atlanta to a Performing Arts School. Guess who didn't get bussed across the city of Atlanta? You guessed it the poor, white kid that was her cousin. So different opportunities do exist for different people.
That must have been a huge school if all the hispanic, half hispanic, and I assume all other minority students in the greater Atlanta area, were bused there to the exclusion of any and all poor white kids - or rich white kids for that matter. Wait, that's probably not what really happened.
Again, if someone wants to put forward a reasonable argument, please do so. Citing Ben Carson, Herman Cain and, "if you are so inclined" Barack Obama (yea, I'll include him since he's the president of the United States) as examples proving the absence of "systematic oppression" is simply stupid (again, sort of like the VMA's). The remark about getting left out of the Performing Arts school is just as stupid. I realize this is the wrong forum to be discussing this topic in detail, but I cannot help resist in asking folks to be reasonable in their arguments. Does Brittany Spears represent the "oppressed white girl" that struggled and made it to the VMA's? Please stop citing the gross exceptions. Didn't the Yankees once send a little person to the plate to get walked? Maybe that instance should serve as inspiration for all little people to pursue a career in the MLB - sorry, that's what is known as a gross exception.
I'll stick to getting my baseball advice here. Think it's time to shut this thread down as I do not see it adding any value to the hsbaseball core.
I believe that was the St. Louis Browns, when they were owned by Veeck.
I think it can be boiled down to respect, or lack there of. I have the right to go over the my mother's house and not use coasters like she likes, not agree to eat what she has prepared because I don't like it, and not park where she has asked me to park a million times....but it's her house and that's just rude. I use the coasters, I park where she has asked me to park and I pick at the meal and tell her I had a BIG lunch but everything looks great.
When you are in America you have the right to not stand or sing the national anthem, but it's just rude not to.
BBALLMAN - please stop digging - the hole you are digging is already big enough. As for quoting, yes, please quote me statistics, maybe income levels, family wealth, poverty levels, etc. Then maybe start quoting some more nuanced statistics like incarceration rates, homicide rates, life expectancy, education levels. You could mention 1,000 by name - I assume that would meet your definition of "PLENTY". But again, that short list of names (given the US population) does not prove anything. While you are at it, please give me your definition of "PLENTY".
I love your quote " I can't possibly sit here and list them all." - priceless.
My bad on the Yankees reference - should have done my homework. Thanks BISHOP for the correction.
Neither the flag nor the anthem is about anyone personally. Sitting during the anthem is disrespectful to all those that came before him, both living and dead that helped get this country to where it is today, imperfect, a work in progress, but our country.
bballman posted:roothog66 posted:The problem isn't even the small handful of "bad" officers - the problem is actually the "good" ones. Every time a Black youth is shot and killed, the African-American community sees it as an outrage. Why? Because, so often, it is outrageous. Then what happens? The police unions and the "good" officers circle the wagons. They don't differentiate between justified shootings and basic homicide. They back their own, regardless of the circumstances.I don't really see this as the case. What the "good" cops usually do is say "Let's investigate and find out what really happened". They don't jump to the conclusion that the cop is guilty or that the victim was guilty. That's the way it should be on both sides. There have been plenty of cops prosecuted and convicted for going over the line and committing a crime while wearing the uniform. There have been plenty acquitted. Everyone is too quick to judge these days...
I disagree. When the FOP's annual meeting refers to "our brothers in Ferguson" (you know, the ones that were found to have been systemically extorting minorities,) that belies your point.
CaCO3Girl posted:When you are in America you have the right to not stand or sing the national anthem, but it's just rude not to.
No, it's not. Do you think it's rude of me to refuse to say the Pledge of Allegiance?
Matt13 posted:CaCO3Girl posted:When you are in America you have the right to not stand or sing the national anthem, but it's just rude not to.
No, it's not. Do you think it's rude of me to refuse to say the Pledge of Allegiance?
I fought for this country. I'd find it disrespectful if you sat down during the national anthem. Respect your country and those that have given their lives for your freedom to choose. If you have a position, at least be selective when you're going to make a statement.
Please close this thread, it's intolerable to listen to anything more.
I think I'm going back to my original statement that I'm going to leave this alone now, being it's on a baseball website. Maybe there's a good politics website somewhere we can debate this...
2017LHPscrewball posted:rynoattack posted:2ndMarDiv posted:I respectfully disagree on not having the same opportunities. I think we all have the same opportunities we just don't have the same opportunities to good parenting.
Oh, there are definitely different opportunities. A person's money, family, and connections can surely provide better opportunities. I will give another example:
My cousin (Mom's Sister's Daughter) has a white mother, and a Mexican father. (Father from Mexico, mother from Alabama) My cousin grew up in Atlanta where I was born and lived the younger part of my life. Since my cousin was a minority, she was bussed across the city of Atlanta to a Performing Arts School. Guess who didn't get bussed across the city of Atlanta? You guessed it the poor, white kid that was her cousin. So different opportunities do exist for different people.
That must have been a huge school if all the hispanic, half hispanic, and I assume all other minority students in the greater Atlanta area, were bused there to the exclusion of any and all poor white kids - or rich white kids for that matter. Wait, that's probably not what really happened.
Again, if someone wants to put forward a reasonable argument, please do so. Citing Ben Carson, Herman Cain and, "if you are so inclined" Barack Obama (yea, I'll include him since he's the president of the United States) as examples proving the absence of "systematic oppression" is simply stupid (again, sort of like the VMA's). The remark about getting left out of the Performing Arts school is just as stupid. I realize this is the wrong forum to be discussing this topic in detail, but I cannot help resist in asking folks to be reasonable in their arguments. Does Brittany Spears represent the "oppressed white girl" that struggled and made it to the VMA's? Please stop citing the gross exceptions. Didn't the Yankees once send a little person to the plate to get walked? Maybe that instance should serve as inspiration for all little people to pursue a career in the MLB - sorry, that's what is known as a gross exception.
I'll stick to getting my baseball advice here. Think it's time to shut this thread down as I do not see it adding any value to the hsbaseball core.
Yeah, you're completely right. I just made that story up...
Gov posted:Matt13 posted:CaCO3Girl posted:When you are in America you have the right to not stand or sing the national anthem, but it's just rude not to.
No, it's not. Do you think it's rude of me to refuse to say the Pledge of Allegiance?
I fought for this country. I'd find it disrespectful if you sat down during the national anthem. Respect your country and those that have given their lives for your freedom to choose. If you have a position, at least be selective when you're going to make a statement.
So did I (still do.) I don't think you understand what we fight for.
2017LHPscrewball posted:rynoattack posted:2ndMarDiv posted:I respectfully disagree on not having the same opportunities. I think we all have the same opportunities we just don't have the same opportunities to good parenting.
Oh, there are definitely different opportunities. A person's money, family, and connections can surely provide better opportunities. I will give another example:
My cousin (Mom's Sister's Daughter) has a white mother, and a Mexican father. (Father from Mexico, mother from Alabama) My cousin grew up in Atlanta where I was born and lived the younger part of my life. Since my cousin was a minority, she was bussed across the city of Atlanta to a Performing Arts School. Guess who didn't get bussed across the city of Atlanta? You guessed it the poor, white kid that was her cousin. So different opportunities do exist for different people.
That must have been a huge school if all the hispanic, half hispanic, and I assume all other minority students in the greater Atlanta area, were bused there to the exclusion of any and all poor white kids - or rich white kids for that matter. Wait, that's probably not what really happened.
Again, if someone wants to put forward a reasonable argument, please do so. Citing Ben Carson, Herman Cain and, "if you are so inclined" Barack Obama (yea, I'll include him since he's the president of the United States) as examples proving the absence of "systematic oppression" is simply stupid (again, sort of like the VMA's). The remark about getting left out of the Performing Arts school is just as stupid. I realize this is the wrong forum to be discussing this topic in detail, but I cannot help resist in asking folks to be reasonable in their arguments. Does Brittany Spears represent the "oppressed white girl" that struggled and made it to the VMA's? Please stop citing the gross exceptions. Didn't the Yankees once send a little person to the plate to get walked? Maybe that instance should serve as inspiration for all little people to pursue a career in the MLB - sorry, that's what is known as a gross exception.
I'll stick to getting my baseball advice here. Think it's time to shut this thread down as I do not see it adding any value to the hsbaseball core.
Maybe you should do a little research to find if minorities are afforded more opportunities for schooling than less fortunate white kids are. Have you ever heard of Affirmative Action??
rynoattack posted:2017LHPscrewball posted:rynoattack posted:2ndMarDiv posted:I respectfully disagree on not having the same opportunities. I think we all have the same opportunities we just don't have the same opportunities to good parenting.
Oh, there are definitely different opportunities. A person's money, family, and connections can surely provide better opportunities. I will give another example:
My cousin (Mom's Sister's Daughter) has a white mother, and a Mexican father. (Father from Mexico, mother from Alabama) My cousin grew up in Atlanta where I was born and lived the younger part of my life. Since my cousin was a minority, she was bussed across the city of Atlanta to a Performing Arts School. Guess who didn't get bussed across the city of Atlanta? You guessed it the poor, white kid that was her cousin. So different opportunities do exist for different people.
That must have been a huge school if all the hispanic, half hispanic, and I assume all other minority students in the greater Atlanta area, were bused there to the exclusion of any and all poor white kids - or rich white kids for that matter. Wait, that's probably not what really happened.
Again, if someone wants to put forward a reasonable argument, please do so. Citing Ben Carson, Herman Cain and, "if you are so inclined" Barack Obama (yea, I'll include him since he's the president of the United States) as examples proving the absence of "systematic oppression" is simply stupid (again, sort of like the VMA's). The remark about getting left out of the Performing Arts school is just as stupid. I realize this is the wrong forum to be discussing this topic in detail, but I cannot help resist in asking folks to be reasonable in their arguments. Does Brittany Spears represent the "oppressed white girl" that struggled and made it to the VMA's? Please stop citing the gross exceptions. Didn't the Yankees once send a little person to the plate to get walked? Maybe that instance should serve as inspiration for all little people to pursue a career in the MLB - sorry, that's what is known as a gross exception.
I'll stick to getting my baseball advice here. Think it's time to shut this thread down as I do not see it adding any value to the hsbaseball core.
Yeah, you're completely right. I just made that story up...
I thought you might be exaggerating when you implied that the Performing Arts school was attended by every minority in the Atlanta area. Otherwise I would have thought you were using a single example to try and prove some larger point that was not in fact true - my bad. Again, that must have been a really big school - with a huge fleet of buses. Any famous students? Did they have an athletics program and compete in the super-size classification? I assume the graduation ceremony took the entire weekend.
I have no doubt your cousin attended that school and you did not, however using that as some type of proof for whatever argument you are trying to make is - again - stupid.
To all of those that believe he was right, make sure your kid sits out the national anthem at his next exposure tournament. Yeah! Let us know how that turns out.
2forU posted:To all of those that believe he was right, make sure your kid sits out the national anthem at his next exposure tournament. Yeah! Let us know how that turns out.
I do wish this would be shut down as I cannot seem to help myself. Yes - if your kid is aiming to get into a specific program and they show up at the showcase, stand up during the national anthem. Coaches in general do not want kids who have potential issues which could negatively impact their program. That are not going to want to explain every series why one of their guys is sitting in the dugout while everyone else is lined up. Don't blame them. They also like their guys to keep their shirts tucked in and their hats facing forward.
As for this situation when an adult - who presumably is set for life and is something of an actor on a national stage - decides to sit it out, I think that person understands what they are trying to achieve.
Putting these two situations together as though they are identical, or even somewhat similar, is not valid. If you want to point out that lots of people off the street would find sitting offensive, please proceed. I myself find it a little distasteful and maybe not the best approach (especially when he has a stage already and could make his opinions knows in a different fashion). but I really do prefer solid arguments.
I never served in the armed forces, but when those guys come forward and talk about folks' liberties, including sitting, as a right they fought for, I'm going to give them lots of credit for knowing what they are talking about.
rynoattack posted:2017LHPscrewball posted:rynoattack posted:2ndMarDiv posted:I respectfully disagree on not having the same opportunities. I think we all have the same opportunities we just don't have the same opportunities to good parenting.
Oh, there are definitely different opportunities. A person's money, family, and connections can surely provide better opportunities. I will give another example:
My cousin (Mom's Sister's Daughter) has a white mother, and a Mexican father. (Father from Mexico, mother from Alabama) My cousin grew up in Atlanta where I was born and lived the younger part of my life. Since my cousin was a minority, she was bussed across the city of Atlanta to a Performing Arts School. Guess who didn't get bussed across the city of Atlanta? You guessed it the poor, white kid that was her cousin. So different opportunities do exist for different people.
That must have been a huge school if all the hispanic, half hispanic, and I assume all other minority students in the greater Atlanta area, were bused there to the exclusion of any and all poor white kids - or rich white kids for that matter. Wait, that's probably not what really happened.
Again, if someone wants to put forward a reasonable argument, please do so. Citing Ben Carson, Herman Cain and, "if you are so inclined" Barack Obama (yea, I'll include him since he's the president of the United States) as examples proving the absence of "systematic oppression" is simply stupid (again, sort of like the VMA's). The remark about getting left out of the Performing Arts school is just as stupid. I realize this is the wrong forum to be discussing this topic in detail, but I cannot help resist in asking folks to be reasonable in their arguments. Does Brittany Spears represent the "oppressed white girl" that struggled and made it to the VMA's? Please stop citing the gross exceptions. Didn't the Yankees once send a little person to the plate to get walked? Maybe that instance should serve as inspiration for all little people to pursue a career in the MLB - sorry, that's what is known as a gross exception.
I'll stick to getting my baseball advice here. Think it's time to shut this thread down as I do not see it adding any value to the hsbaseball core.
Maybe you should do a little research to find if minorities are afforded more opportunities for schooling than less fortunate white kids are. Have you ever heard of Affirmative Action??
Wow.
Swampboys gonna be ticked y'all! I see a lot of erasures in his future.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/sport...r-AAicYdy?li=BBnb7Kz
Maybe his actions have to do with his contract. How to keep $12 million after he is cut.
Bob
When the national anthem plays I always feel a sense of brotherhood. We're all out for the common good for all Americans.
This country is great, but it's having problems right now... Let's pay respect to the anthem and flag in brotherhood and trust this common bond will allow all of us to work together.
Lets get back to the healthy outlet of baseball.
Cheers to all,
David
nxt lvl posted:Yes , there are problems here as there are problems in many other countries, but it doesnt take away from this country being great. America is not perfect but it is the best I know. Although, I would NOT have used that moment to voice my displeasure. There is one question that keeps popping in my head and continues to be unanswered by most of the media and other people who have spoken their opinion about the topic. When is a good time for a person who feels they must speak out? When would I have chosen to make my position known to the general public if I so wanted? What is the best forum?
Many people agree that he should have stood for the National Anthem. So do I . But he felt compelled to act. This actually wasnt the first time he took a stance. I checked his social media sources. I wondered why he did not say anything during the 49rs run to the Super Bowl or the countless interviews he has done. Maybe something has happened recently to make him see things in a different light.
Please remember that different races stood elbow to elbow during civil rights protests. Many of those people stood at attention during the National Anthem. It was not the forum THEY chose to voice their displeasure at the injustices they saw at that time. Some chose to stand. Some chose to NOT stand also. Americans spirit.
You can see injustice while you are wealthy or poor, regardless of race, religion, sexual orientation, or the color of your parents. The race issue in America is a complex issue and not easily solved. Some injustices are small and easily overcome. When my daughter played softball and my son played baseball for the same sports program and the softball fields were horrible and impossible to play on while the baseball fields were well kept, I stood up and voiced my opinion to force a change. ( just one example... I thought it fit in well with this website ). But we wont solve the race issue quite as easily, I am afraid. We must try to do something? It is very divisive and ugly. I dont know where I would begin to solve it. Not during pre game. Probably during post game.....maybe not even in the context of a sporting event....but I dont have the answer. I dont know WHEN.
God Bless this country, where a man is free to voice his displeasure without fear of persecution by the government. In many other countries that would not be possible. THAT is a right my family has defended and I will gladly defend. Over and over. Even if I dont agree with NOT standing for the Anthem. I will ALWAYS agree with trying to make the world and more specifically, America, a better place. I love this country.
Something did occur recently. He started dating a BLM activist.
BishopLeftiesDad posted:2017LHPscrewball posted:rynoattack posted:2ndMarDiv posted:I respectfully disagree on not having the same opportunities. I think we all have the same opportunities we just don't have the same opportunities to good parenting.
Oh, there are definitely different opportunities. A person's money, family, and connections can surely provide better opportunities. I will give another example:
My cousin (Mom's Sister's Daughter) has a white mother, and a Mexican father. (Father from Mexico, mother from Alabama) My cousin grew up in Atlanta where I was born and lived the younger part of my life. Since my cousin was a minority, she was bussed across the city of Atlanta to a Performing Arts School. Guess who didn't get bussed across the city of Atlanta? You guessed it the poor, white kid that was her cousin. So different opportunities do exist for different people.
That must have been a huge school if all the hispanic, half hispanic, and I assume all other minority students in the greater Atlanta area, were bused there to the exclusion of any and all poor white kids - or rich white kids for that matter. Wait, that's probably not what really happened.
Again, if someone wants to put forward a reasonable argument, please do so. Citing Ben Carson, Herman Cain and, "if you are so inclined" Barack Obama (yea, I'll include him since he's the president of the United States) as examples proving the absence of "systematic oppression" is simply stupid (again, sort of like the VMA's). The remark about getting left out of the Performing Arts school is just as stupid. I realize this is the wrong forum to be discussing this topic in detail, but I cannot help resist in asking folks to be reasonable in their arguments. Does Brittany Spears represent the "oppressed white girl" that struggled and made it to the VMA's? Please stop citing the gross exceptions. Didn't the Yankees once send a little person to the plate to get walked? Maybe that instance should serve as inspiration for all little people to pursue a career in the MLB - sorry, that's what is known as a gross exception.
I'll stick to getting my baseball advice here. Think it's time to shut this thread down as I do not see it adding any value to the hsbaseball core.
I believe that was the St. Louis Browns, when they were owned by Veeck.
Eddie Gaedel was used by Bill Veeck's as part of his baseball circus. He had no rit to be on a MLB field.
No one made Kaepernick play in the NFL. Since he chose to take the opportunity he should respect NFL customs.
i attended a Christian private high school one year. I'm not Christian. We had prayers before every meal. We had church five days a week. I wasn't forced to pray. I was told I had to sit quietly and respectfully during the prayers. My family chose to send me there. It was on me to respect the majority.
We've all said our peace. Let's move on..
Jay Glazer usually gets it right. He's very well connected in the NFL. He said expect Kaepernick to be released before the start of the season. It's not all about the national anthem. There are many who believe he is washed up as a QB. He may have done what he did to expedite his release.
If you think it will cost him an opportunity to play NFL football, forget it. NFL teams sign criminals if they think it will help them win.
Matt13 posted:CaCO3Girl posted:When you are in America you have the right to not stand or sing the national anthem, but it's just rude not to.
No, it's not. Do you think it's rude of me to refuse to say the Pledge of Allegiance?
Yeah, I can't resist either.
When you enter or live in a country you should respect the customs of that country. If you do not want to pledge allegiance to the flag you should at least stand.
Interesting observations. I actually was outraged but after reading about the history of the Star Spangled Banner, I somewhat understand why he possibly decided NOT to stand, at some point in his lifetime.
The song written by Francis Scott Key, is not sung in its entirety, only the first verse, there are 3. The National Anthem is actually a celebration of slavery. Some feel it actually should not be our National Anthem anymore, and represents a dark period in our countrys history.
You all can google it.
However, after listening to a gold star mother today, I agree with what she said. Sometimes its not about what you do, but what you dont do. If Kaepernick felt or feels that blacks or any other race is suppressed, then do something to help make a change.
A perfect example of this is how LeBron James is helping to bring commerce back to Cleveland, which would bring jobs and more income to the area. Dwayne Wade went back to Chicago for the same reason. Many athletes do spend their off season trying to help make a difference in other peoples lives, because they understand they are truely blessed to be where they are.
So while I understand Kaepernick has the freedom to stand or not stand while they are playing the National Anthem, he also has the freedom to do something to help bring change.
JMO
Gov posted:We've all said our peace. Let's move on..
Good advise. Positions have been laid out and, strangely for an internet forum, rather civilly and with respect. I think this would be a good jumping off point to get back to baseball.
Per one of the various disagreements in this thread:
I just was listening to a veteran that had lost his legs serving our country. His take was this, he is not upset with Kapernick sitting down as much as he is with what he said afterwards. This guy said, look at the military. It has come so far with regards to officers, race, opportunity and promotions. He said that when he was at war, he had his "brothers" at his side. He didn't care about race. He said that, and I am quoting him here, "when someone speaks of oppression, do they understand the improvements since the Civil Rights movement and how far our society had come." What was tough to take was his statement that he'd give anything to stand one time for the National Anthem.
As an FYI, I've never heard nor studied that the National Anthem is a celebration of slavery. This verse is the verse that causes some to question the Star Spangled Banner:
And where is that band who so vauntingly swore
That the havoc of war and the battle's confusion,
A home and a country, should leave us no more?
Their blood has washed out their foul footsteps' pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave:
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave,
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.
The reference to, "No refuge could save the hireling and slave." is a reference the British freeing slaves and hiring others in the colonies to join their army as the marched on Washington D.C. to burn it. Thus the emotion of the verse since Washington D.C. was burned. The references today are either taken totally out of context on purpose or people are ignorant of what transpired as Washington D.C. burned.
I had a very energetic music teacher in elementary school that acted out Francis Scott Key stuck in a room asking everyone around him if they could look out the window and see which flag stood, the only light in the pitch black night was from the bombs bursting in the air. He knew if the star spangled banner was no longer standing they had lost, so they each kept a lookout all night long waiting to catch a glimpse of which flag was still there. It was all about a guy looking for a flag.
I grew up in NJ and now I live in Georgia, and I am raising my children here. It was interesting to help my children study an entirely different take on the civil war than what I learned in school. Opinions and even facts are hued by who's glasses you are looking through.
Matt13 posted:CaCO3Girl posted:When you are in America you have the right to not stand or sing the national anthem, but it's just rude not to.
No, it's not. Do you think it's rude of me to refuse to say the Pledge of Allegiance?
In an environment where it is expected... Yes.
CaCO3Girl posted:I had a very energetic music teacher in elementary school that acted out Francis Scott Key stuck in a room asking everyone around him if they could look out the window and see which flag stood, the only light in the pitch black night was from the bombs bursting in the air. He knew if the star spangled banner was no longer standing they had lost, so they each kept a lookout all night long waiting to catch a glimpse of which flag was still there. It was all about a guy looking for a flag.
I grew up in NJ and now I live in Georgia, and I am raising my children here. It was interesting to help my children study an entirely different take on the civil war than what I learned in school. Opinions and even facts are hued by who's glasses you are looking through.
Caco... Here to help. I am going out in a limb and saying I am not the only history teaching coach on here... Check your wars... Might want to edit or delete! Lol.
CoachB25 posted:Per one of the various disagreements in this thread:
I just was listening to a veteran that had lost his legs serving our country. His take was this, he is not upset with Kapernick sitting down as much as he is with what he said afterwards. This guy said, look at the military. It has come so far with regards to officers, race, opportunity and promotions. He said that when he was at war, he had his "brothers" at his side. He didn't care about race. He said that, and I am quoting him here, "when someone speaks of oppression, do they understand the improvements since the Civil Rights movement and how far our society had come." What was tough to take was his statement that he'd give anything to stand one time for the National Anthem.
I think the infographic you posted is less valuable without a comparison. Note that the "All USA" numbers included the black families as well, so the medians without the black families would be even higher.
There is a lot more going on here. This summer he converted to Islam and engaged to a BLM activist.
He also was fined last year for making a racial slur towards another player.
Bottom line, he is toast, he will be dropped by the 49ers as soon as it looks good for them to do so, and no one is going to want that controversy attached to their team.
Back to baseball!
JacJacatk, then you'd also have to factor other things in like the absurd number of African American children born to a single mother. You can find several different numbers but a consistent is above 67%. Then, you'd have to ask yourself who is responsible for that.
TPM posted:There is a lot more going on here. This summer he converted to Islam and engaged to a BLM activist.
He also was fined last year for making a racial slur towards another player.
Bottom line, he is toast, he will be dropped by the 49ers as soon as it looks good for them to do so, and no one is going to want that controversy attached to their team.
Back to baseball!
TPM, you're spreading BS stories from unreliable conservative websites. He has NOT converted to Islam. That's only being touted on conservative sites.
2020dad posted:CaCO3Girl posted:I had a very energetic music teacher in elementary school that acted out Francis Scott Key stuck in a room asking everyone around him if they could look out the window and see which flag stood, the only light in the pitch black night was from the bombs bursting in the air. He knew if the star spangled banner was no longer standing they had lost, so they each kept a lookout all night long waiting to catch a glimpse of which flag was still there. It was all about a guy looking for a flag.
I grew up in NJ and now I live in Georgia, and I am raising my children here. It was interesting to help my children study an entirely different take on the civil war than what I learned in school. Opinions and even facts are hued by who's glasses you are looking through.
Caco... Here to help. I am going out in a limb and saying I am not the only history teaching coach on here... Check your wars... Might want to edit or delete! Lol.
Thank you.
TPM posted:There is a lot more going on here. This summer he converted to Islam and engaged to a BLM activist.
He also was fined last year for making a racial slur towards another player.
Bottom line, he is toast, he will be dropped by the 49ers as soon as it looks good for them to do so, and no one is going to want that controversy attached to their team.
Back to baseball!
A google search suggests that Kaepernick only converted to Islam if you believe the same sources that say HRC murdered Vince Foster and the victims in Sandy Hook were actors.
But this is a silly argument.
We all agree that Kaepernick has a Constitutional right do do what he did and say what he said.
We all agree that those who disagree have a Constitutional right to express their disagreement.
Case closed.
2020dad posted:Matt13 posted:CaCO3Girl posted:When you are in America you have the right to not stand or sing the national anthem, but it's just rude not to.
No, it's not. Do you think it's rude of me to refuse to say the Pledge of Allegiance?
In an environment where it is expected... Yes.
I don't. I will not pledge myself to an object.
This came after me taking several oaths to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. That is what I swore to defend, the foundation of the United States. The US is no less or more great because of a particular flag...it doesn't matter if it is the Stars and Stripes, the Jolly Roger, a pair of underwear on a flagpole, or non-existent, the United States is the United States. For me to pledge allegiance to an object that is meaningless without what I had already signed up to defend, it puts it on the same level, and quite frankly, it's not. That flag can change in meaning; it is a means of communication. The flag itself can be replaced by a different one. The US is an entity that does not have that--at its core, it either exists or it doesn't.
roothog66 posted:TPM posted:There is a lot more going on here. This summer he converted to Islam and engaged to a BLM activist.
He also was fined last year for making a racial slur towards another player.
Bottom line, he is toast, he will be dropped by the 49ers as soon as it looks good for them to do so, and no one is going to want that controversy attached to their team.
Back to baseball!
TPM, you're spreading BS stories from unreliable conservative websites. He has NOT converted to Islam. That's only being touted on conservative sites.
I never said itvwas a bad thing, but actually it was posted on a sports site back in july. I am by no means a conservative.
Not that there's anything wrong with being a conservative.
CaCO3Girl posted:I had a very energetic music teacher in elementary school that acted out Francis Scott Key stuck in a room asking everyone around him if they could look out the window and see which flag stood, the only light in the pitch black night was from the bombs bursting in the air. He knew if the star spangled banner was no longer standing they had lost, so they each kept a lookout all night long waiting to catch a glimpse of which flag was still there. It was all about a guy looking for a flag.
I grew up in NJ and now I live in Georgia, and I am raising my children here. It was interesting to help my children study an entirely different take on the civil war than what I learned in school. Opinions and even facts are hued by who's glasses you are looking through.
Are you talking about the northern oppression of the south?
TPM posted:There is a lot more going on here. This summer he converted to Islam and engaged to a BLM activist.
He also was fined last year for making a racial slur towards another player.
Bottom line, he is toast, he will be dropped by the 49ers as soon as it looks good for them to do so, and no one is going to want that controversy attached to their team.
Back to baseball!
Jay Glazer is one of the best at getting inside information on the NFL. He said Kaepernick is toast. It's not just the anthem incident. There are those who believe he's in rapid decline athletically and as a QB.
His act may have been to get released now rather than when rosters are pared down for the season next week. Getting released next week could have him out of football until a QB gets injured.
I am a Conservative and proud of it. However, Kaepernick has the right to do what he did. Again, my beef is his political posturing afterwards. The facts simply don't back some of the beliefs of oppression. In watching an opinion program tonight, one African American guest wanted to make the point that if Kaepernick wanted to talk "oppression," then he should talk about the 57 shootings in the last 3 days in Chicago. This lady said that when a parent has to consider her child walking to school to be one of the most dangerous things her child can do, that's oppression. She said that when a parent believes that if you send your child out into the back yard to play, you are putting your child's life in danger, that oppression.
Well, I could go on and on but I don't want to ruin my standing here in this fine community.
I think that people who are analyzing Kap's motives are wasting their time. He is pissed that he is not starting. He has previously requested a trade and been denied. He is simply trying to hasten his release. And he sincerely believes that it is better to be a villain than an unknown, hence his "stance". Rest assured - were he the starting QB there is no way in heck that he would be doing this.
RJM posted:CaCO3Girl posted:I had a very energetic music teacher in elementary school that acted out Francis Scott Key stuck in a room asking everyone around him if they could look out the window and see which flag stood, the only light in the pitch black night was from the bombs bursting in the air. He knew if the star spangled banner was no longer standing they had lost, so they each kept a lookout all night long waiting to catch a glimpse of which flag was still there. It was all about a guy looking for a flag.
I grew up in NJ and now I live in Georgia, and I am raising my children here. It was interesting to help my children study an entirely different take on the civil war than what I learned in school. Opinions and even facts are hued by who's glasses you are looking through.
Are you talking about the northern oppression of the south?
lol yup. I wasn't saying the star spangled banner was written during the civil war I'm saying when I went to school in New Jersey the main reason taught for the north vs south civil war was slavery. The main cause, according to Georgia text books, were the taxes that the north imposed.
Like I said, even facts can be hued by who's glasses you are looking through.
CaCO3Girl posted:RJM posted:CaCO3Girl posted:I had a very energetic music teacher in elementary school that acted out Francis Scott Key stuck in a room asking everyone around him if they could look out the window and see which flag stood, the only light in the pitch black night was from the bombs bursting in the air. He knew if the star spangled banner was no longer standing they had lost, so they each kept a lookout all night long waiting to catch a glimpse of which flag was still there. It was all about a guy looking for a flag.
I grew up in NJ and now I live in Georgia, and I am raising my children here. It was interesting to help my children study an entirely different take on the civil war than what I learned in school. Opinions and even facts are hued by who's glasses you are looking through.
Are you talking about the northern oppression of the south?
lol yup. I wasn't saying the star spangled banner was written during the civil war I'm saying when I went to school in New Jersey the main reason taught for the north vs south civil war was slavery. The main cause, according to Georgia text books, were the taxes that the north imposed.
Like I said, even facts can be hued by who's glasses you are looking through.
Caco one year to teach just what you said I brought in chapters from a British, Russian and Chinese textbook regarding the American Revolution. It was fascinating how much the accounts differed with our own textbook. I tried my best to teach kids that propaganda is everywhere - including here - and wading through history is not always as straight forward as it may seem. But at the end of the day all you have to do is travel a bit and you will find that with all our problems we are still very lucky to live in the USA. And the flag and anthem are symbols of a country that has afforded us this great opportunity. A good person respect that while of course always trying to make things better.
Tim Tebow expressed his beliefs on the field - the double standard
I heard that an NFL player made a statement along the lines that the "double standard" was that the Cowboys wanted to honor the 5 Police Officers killed with a special sticker on their helmets but were told no and yet, this expression essentially is in favor of BLM and their stance against the police etc. Again, this is second hand so take it for what it is worth.
CoachB25 posted:I heard that an NFL player made a statement along the lines that the "double standard" was that the Cowboys wanted to honor the 5 Police Officers killed with a special sticker on their helmets but were told no and yet, this expression essentially is in favor of BLM and their stance against the police etc. Again, this is second hand so take it for what it is worth.
There's difference between an organization making an expression and an individual making an expression. However, the NFL might have been worried about what would happen if several players didn't want to be part of that expression. That would have become the story.
Note, as well - and I'm neither a Kaepernick fan or distractor - that he gives quite a bit of time and money to Camp Taylor, a charity supporting families with children with heart disease. He looks to be quite involved due to the fact that his adoptive parents lost two children to heart disease.
Wasn't Kaepernick raised by white parents? I doubt he was ever denied an opportunity.
2ndMarDiv posted:Wasn't Kaepernick raised by white parents? I doubt he was ever denied an opportunity.
Correct. And more than one white person actively opposed slavery, apartheid, etc. Your point?