Need some advice re: HS pitching

       
       
Agreed.  Pretty sure we all agree.  But why don't you tell us who Johnny's dad/mom is?  Problem is I missed that post.  Didn't see anyone forcasting 3 years out and saying their son is going to have things magically fall into place and be a D1 ballplayer.  Poor little johnny.  All I ever hear are bad things about his parents!  I would love to give them a piece of my mind unfortunately I am having a bit of trouble locating them on here.

No doubt about it.  The vast majority of recruiting action takes place during the summer and fall. Two reasons for that, 1. colleges play their season in the spring.  2. They can see many prospects in one location which saves time and money.

 

However, I agree with infielddad. Only I look at it a bit differently.  HS baseball should be fun, but so should summer or fall baseball be fun. If you're playing baseball you better be having fun or you're wasting your time. Every player competes when they play, be it HS, summer or fall.  A player might be more relaxed when there are no scouts or recruiters watching, but that should never change the way he plays the game.

Good luck to you and your son .

> On Oct 5, 2015, at 6:10 PM, HS Baseball Web <alerts@hoop.la> wrote:
>

Originally Posted by roothog66:

I'm going to introduce a novel concept (tongue firmly in cheek). Can you teach velocity? Yes. Can you teach control? Yes. Is there a difference in how you teach them? NO! How exactly do you teach control? I think most would agree that the secret to control is repeatable mechanics. So, how is teaching repeatable mechanics counter to teaching mechanics that provide increased velocity? I'd say it's not. Look at Randy Johnson. If you remember how he was early in his career, he was a bus wreck. Upper 90's with no idea where it was going to end up. There was no "working" on his control. It just took years of repetition until he got to the point that his mechanics were consistent and then control came all at once.

 

What’s unfortunate is there are so many who sincerely believe velocity is almost entirely genetically based, many who have the capacity aren’t given the opportunity. Included in that group are those sincerely believing that velocity can’t be taught in any way, shape, or form.

 

I happen to be one who completely believes in the secret to pitching is repeatable mechanics, but I go a bit further than most. I believe trying to have pitchers throwing different pitch types at young ages only makes getting repeatable mechanics that much more difficult because the mechanics for the different pitch types are all different to at least some degree. The quest of repeatable mechanics is also hampered by switching from throwing from the stretch as opposed to the windup, which is a big reason I’ve always like close bases as opposed to open bases.

 

In the final analysis, too many confuse youth pitchers with miniature ML pitchers and try to make them look, throw, and act like the cream of the crop of grown men playing in the ML.

We read a great deal on HSBBWEB about reaching the "magical number of 90" as a pitcher. But college hitters can hit 90 mph too. Good that control is addressed here, but movement and location is also key to being effective at whatever the next level is for the player.

Nice post.  Yes many are genetically gifted.

As I have posted many times, you can improve velocity and control by  teaching repeatable mechanics and good conditioning included in a healthy diet is the key.

 

Its really that simple.

Some very good advice above.

2019dad,

This place is one of a kind on the internet.  You will never find a more dedicated group of parents, coaches, professionals who come here willingly to help with nothing to gain.

You will never ask a simple question here and get a simple answer.

But you did ask and you got great answers.  Its for you to decide, but you need to do your homework first.  You need to nunderstasmd the process. Sorry if this sounds preachy, its not meant to be. You need to understand the process and how and why command and velocity work when the mechanics get better. There is no 13, 14 YO on earth who can repeat their delivery using 3-4 different pitches to look the same 50 or 60 times in a game.

 

There is no one magic formula, as bballman has told you repeatably, it's not one thing , it all works together. I really think that you have completely misunderstood what the coach meant so I do urge you to go back and speak with him.  

Good luck.

 

 

in my earlier post, I didn't mean to insinuate that the players should play with any less intensity in HS ball, in fact that really irritates me when I see it.  My point was that in our area, and I know it's much different in other areas, although it is "competitive" and can be intense at times, HS baseball just doesn't have a very high level of talent in general- around here.  At our HS, we may only have 1 kid  every year or two go on to play any level of college ball, and maybe only 5 or 6 a year in our conference play at any level in college.  Don't ask me why, I can't figure it out and I'd love to see it improve.  We've had some great players come from this area, McKay for Louisville is the latest example.   My point was that if a kid aspires to play in college from our area, he has to get on a travel team.  I've seen a few kids over the years get overlooked because they and their parents just don't do their due diligence, and don't know what needs to be done in order to get to the next level.  They believe that "if you are good enough, they'll find you", and that may work in football, but it doesn't work in baseball, at least not in our area.

I keep reading about repeatable mechanics....can someone please tell me exactly what that means?

 

Does it mean the pitcher lands in the same spot each pitch?

Does it mean the pitcher has the same exact arm speed each pitch?

Does it mean the pitcher has the exact arm angle each pitch?

Does it mean the pitcher has the exact stride each pitch?

Does it mean the pitcher has the same spin rate for each pitch type?

Does it mean the pitcher has the same forearm angle each pitch?

Does it mean the pitcher recruits the same amount of power from his glutes each pitch?

Does it mean the pitcher stands in the exact same place on the rubber each pitch?

Does it mean the pitcher only pitches from the stretch each pitch?

Does it mean the pitcher throws the same MPH for each fastball, curveball, slider, etc?

Does it mean the pitcher holds the ball in the exact same spot each time for a fastball, cureball, slider, etc?

Does it mean the pitcher is feeling as strong as he was from his previous outing?

Does it mean the pitcher has the same focus as the last time he pitched?

Does it mean all of the above?

 

Can anyone provide me video links of someone with repeatable mechanics? When I watch slow motion video of the best in the game, not one guy (that I have been able to find) throws two pitches the same way. One pitch he may be sitting deeper in his glutes, the next his forearm flys out a little more than the previous pitch, another pitch his strike foot is at a different angle,  ...etc, etc..

 

Just would like to have a deeper understanding of what repeatable mechanics is. So if anyone could help me with this I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you.

 

 

It is a fallacy basically.  

You are right, no two throws are the same.   To the naked eye it is mechanics that look the same, arm slot doesn't have obvious changes or something that jumps out.  

Usually, what people mean is smooth mechanics.  Not herky-jerky.  Nothing that is an obvious red flags.  You can have someone who looks very smooth with their mechanics but who is not efficient. 

Like most things that are verbal indicators for a physical movement, can mean different things to different people.  

       
       


Now that makes sense! Thank you!

I think you are over thinking it.  No two things are exactly alike.  But everything has a tolerance.  So take something like stride length.  Repeatable would mean a stride within a certain variance (say plus/minus 3 inches?) which doesn't materially affect the pitch.    

Well said. 

It should not be about trying to exactly replicate a motion but making things more efficient (more explosive, safer ect). 

Thank you all for the replys! So in summary, there is no such thing as repeatable mechanics just a phrase people like to throw out when the think they know or see (without the aid of video) what proper mechanics looks like within a certain tolerance.


Now who determines what proper mechanics and the tolerances should be or look like? I only ask because there is such a variety of Pitching styles out there that have allowed players to become successful...Should my son model himself after Maddux, Kershaw, Tim Collins  or any other MLB pitcher?

Sorry not trying to be a pain in the butt, just feel fortunate to have so many knowledgeable members who are willing to help and if by asking the right questions it not only helps my son, but other players as well, I would consider it a good thing.

No there are repeatable mechanics.  Just not to the exactness you appear to desire.  Again, everything in the world has a tolerance band.  Plus/minus some factor. 

 

As for whose mechanics to replicate, the one who allows you to achieve your highest level of success without incurring injury. 

Sigh. Sounds like you think you had a point to make and then took any reply given as support for your contention. Repeatable mechanics deal with arm slot, release, particular checkpoints, and timing. Take video from the back of most successful major leaguers and then superimpose several like pitches over one another and you will, indeed see what repeatable mechanics are.

       
       

Sorry no where in my post did I mention I desired exactness....watched too many slow motion video to know that there is no such thing as repeatable mechanics. What I was trying to understand is why "coaches" keep referring to repeatable mechanics when there is clearly no such animal. Thanks to Leftside he helped me understand the term "repeatable mechanics" is a concept painted in a coaches head of what a successful Pitching motion is and even that concept has deviations.

I like what you said about "achieving the highest level of success without causing injury" that makes sense. So if a pitcher is taught to alter his finish from the traditional "fielding position" to a finish that allows his arm more time  decelerate , as well as, avoid shoulder bang why in the world would any coach want to do the opposite?

Again, just trying to understand...not offend.

To be more specific, I use certain checkpoints to determine if a pitcher is using repeatable mechanics from which he can, with an acceptable degree of accuracy, place pitches where he wants with very slight variances in those mechanics. Foot strike placement, glove side position, posture, release point, and pivot foot turnover.

 

In order to effectively move a ball around the strike zone or cloak your pitch selection, you first have to establish baseline physical positioning that can be repeated at will. You are correct that pitchers will show slight variations pitch-to-pitch. That is by design. Most successful pitchers have developed a baseline delivery which has been muscle memory engrained. From that base point (established repeatable mechanics) they can then use small variances to initiate movement, placement, and velocity changes. So, what we mean by repeatable mechanics is that a pitcher wanting to throw a fastball middle at the knees would show very similar mechanics for every one of those pitches. Certainly, you would see very slight variances in mechanics for a fastball at the neck and a fastball at the knees, for a curve low and outside and a curve inside at the belt.

       
       


Done that! Thank you. Some of the best in the game fall off to one side.  I am just trying to understand why 2019dad's son's HS coach is trying to make his son land in a fielding position when some of the best in the business do not. My son does that so if it is wrong I would like to know now rather than later.

Also, if my posts bother you I am sorry.

I agree that physical mechanics will vary some from pitch to pitch, AND. . . .from person to person.  Also, staying with certain tolerances is key to consistency and performance.  The difficulty come in both communicating and understanding just where the key tolerances are to maximize one's performance.

 

Before doing some baseball coaching, I taught golf starting back in the early 70's and back then we didn't have much in the way of slow motion video feedback like today.  When casually looking at professional players then, we could easily see huge differences in golf swings (e.g. Chi Chi Rodriguez, Arnold Palmer, Lee Trevino, Gary Player, Sam Snead, Jack Nicklaus).  But on close inspection of certain points in their swings (e.g. point of contact), they all had the same position (within narrow tolerances of course).  In today's terms, their "kinetic chain" was pretty much the same.  One might say that Jack Nicklaus had the prettiest/perfect swing, which is the type of swing golfers try to achieve today.  lol . . . you certainly don't see Chi Chi's type of swing being taught.  The point here is, you don't have to look the same to achieve good performance, but you DO have to reach those key points within a physical movement (and within certain tolerances) in order to achieve high performance and consistency.  The advent of human kinetics in this day and age helps identify where these points are and technology helps us see whether we're able to get within the required tolerances. In the golf world, it seems this has taken a lot of the "art" out of golf as we don't see the wide range of swing differences as we once did. 

 

Baseball has now followed suit as more coaches teach and players try to change their "mechanical signature" to look like what's more perceived as mechanically sound.  When trying to analyze hitting and throwing, it's a complex kinetic chain that's hard to communicate (particularly to those who are not physically oriented).  In any case, it's important to understand what one needs to achieve within that kinetic chain in order to achieve their maximum or desired performance. For many elite athletes, that understanding tends to come more intuitively along with lots of practice.   

 

For consistency, in my mind, the bottom line is simply . . . practice makes perfect. 

       
       


Excellent....thank you!

       
       

Well said! Thank you.

Thank you to everyone who replied! I am grateful for your time and hopefully someone else benefits as well!

I will stop posting on this thread as it appears I am ruffling some feathers and that truely is not what I meant to do. I value the opinion of those  before me and am thankful you took the time to share.

If you haven't ruffled feathers, you haven't added anything to the conversation.

The only thing that bothered me was the approach. if you have an opinion to offer, then offer it. Disguising your argument as a question when you obviously have an agenda means that the question you ask is ingenuous. There's no problem with having an agenda, by the way.

 

My son also falls off to the first base side. My own personal opinion is that very few pitchers who come finished in the "fielding position" are firing the ball at their maximum capable velocity. Falling off to the glove side to some degree is almost inherently involved I max effort.

Here is a good article from ASMI on proper pitching mechanics.  I think it does a good job of highlighting some of the key points and items along the kinetic chain Truman was talking about.  ASMI even recognizes that getting to certain points will be different for certain pitchers based on arm slot, but there are certain aspects of the pitching motion that should be adhered to no matter who the pitcher is.  I think it is worth the read:

 

http://web.usabaseball.com/pla...chanics-of-pitching/

It's wrong if it doesn't allow you to be effective.  I suppose that is the current coach's determination.  Without seeing video of the kid we are all just guessing. 

Here are two GIFs embedded in a recent FanGraphs article that asks whether it's possible Michael Wacha's struggles of late are the result of deviating from his usual mechanics in two ways: arm slot and falling further off the mound toward first base.

 

When I hear "repeatable mechanics" this is what comes to mind. (couldn't figure out how to embed in post -- but worth clicking through.

 

http://zippy.gfycat.com/BoldEmbellishedHarrier.webm

http://zippy.gfycat.com/AnchoredTornBlesbok.webm

 

Here's the whole article.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs...michael-wacha-maybe/

I think you can see some of the same with Lincecum the past two or three years - his posture has been different. He seemingly doesn't arch his back as much as he used to. There has been some speculation that after breaking a bit from his dad, someone else may have suggested that it was too much and changed him just that little bit.

 

I think that by september fatigue sets in and thus the pitcher begins to lose his repeatable mechanics. 

 

Also (I know that you know this roothog) when a pitcher experiences injury, even the slightest, one thing begins to compensate for another. Example, son had some shoulder issues, after that was ok the elbow began to bother him (not the ligament). And you get older and then its really harder.

 

As far as falling off to the side, I think that many will teach the young pitcher how to land in a position that he will be able to defend himself. Later on, when the pitcher becomes more knowledgeable, things can change.  

 

Not sure why someone would give anyone else a hard time over repeatable mechanics. Its really a no brainer IMO.  

 

I just love it when someone comes here telling us that his young son throws his pitches from all different arm angles, that is why he is so successful. Yeah just wait until the other guy on the team picks it up. That happened to my son when entering college, he was tipping his CU, changed his arm angle a slight bit and someone picked up on it. Took a while to straighten it out, coach said he had probably been doing it forever but got away with it as a youth pitcher and in HS. Not so at the next level.

 

A pitcher never, never stops working on his mechanics, even the old guys. lol

 

Lincecum had hip surgery last month. Sounds like he has bilateral and degenerative hip issues.  While not much information has  been released, I would not be surprised if the hips have been a more chronic issue and accounts for much of the regression and issues for the last 1-2 years, at least.

I agree with you infielddad and that would explain why his mechanics changed.

 

His mechanics, before they changed, might also help explain why he has, probably, progressive  bilateral hip disease, too, TPM. 

I don't think repeatable mechanics and good mechanics are synonymous. 

 

I think repeatable mechanics are critical - when viewed from the batters perspective. Every pitch, whether a FB, CB or whatever must look the same up to the point of release from the batters perspective. Obviously, a release point differs, for example, in an inside FB and and outside FB; but the difference is millimeters and not visible to a batter with good eyesight. But, a pitcher who delivers only CB from an over the head slot and who delivers a FB from a 3/4 slot is not repeating.

 

So, I'll stick with a simple practical definition: if every pitch looks the same to the batter upon release (or base runner in some cases), you're repeating. If there is anything different (e.g., changing alignment, slot, arm speed, etc.) which can be detected by the batter, you're not repeating.

Luckily for Lincecum, the original diagnosis of degenerative hip disease turned out to be off the mark. The surgeon reported that the joints themselves were in much better condition than expected. It was a torn labrum and some bone build up on his left hip that needed to be shaved down. It turns out that the bone buildup was mimicking a lot of degenerative symptoms. He should recover fully according to his surgeon.

Good point!

"He should recover fully according to his surgeon."

 

I think that is part of the residency training in orthopedic surgery. Amazing how many situations don't end up that way.

I am not taking the over but I would love to see it happen.

Oops, hit the wrong button before I had completed the thought.

 

Repeatability from the pitchers perspective enables him to pitch with a high degree of consistency. For example, changing the release point minutely (not perceivable to the batter) allows the pitcher to pitch the entire plate but so does changing the alignment of the stride foot (probably perceivable to the batter) with the same release point; apart from the fact the batter sees it (see above) I think it's harder to control the stride foot then making minute adjustnmets to the release point.

 

That's why guys with what many would consider marginal mechanics can throw well - they repeat those mechanics.

 

Maximizing each pitcher's mechanics takes them one step closer to reaching genetically limited velo, IMO.

Chris Archer's 2 inning ESPN commentary tonight on Dallas Keuchel pitching seems like a perfect framework for some of those with HS freshman pitchers. Perhaps any pitcher.

Archer who is 97-98 was terrific in talking about how he is learning from guys like Keuchel in terms of how to pitch and use his pitches.  Command and location of every pitch seemed far more impressive than velocity, as Archer talked about his respect for Keuchel. A fastball at 90 on the outside part followed by a breaking ball starting in exactly the same location but 10mph less caused Archer to emphasize how "that" is pitching. My impression, and mine only, was Archer was visualizing his velocity with command and location and where he would be as a pitcher.

Yeah, I saw that. He'd be, I dunno, Clayton Kershaw? Though Archer is plenty good right now.