Need some advice re: HS pitching

Thanks! He is going to have a hard time not letting it rip! He's a "Yes, Coach" kind of kid, but he's been letting it rip his whole life, so this is a struggle.

Thank you! Funny you should mention it, but 2019Son had never had a pitching coach, but this summer he went 7 or 8 times to a Texas Baseball Ranch (TBR) disciple here in CA. They did slow motion video analysis of his mechanics, made some minor tweaks to his takeaway, but did not really change his follow-through. Once school started, his HS pitching coach put the kibosh on the TBR stuff. Said it was something he could do at a later date, once his command was where the coach wanted it. As I said, the view is command first, then velocity.

Yes, thanks, like I said in the original post, he has decent velocity, not great. And those numbers (75-76 at the USA Baseball tournament, touching 77.4 at the pitching facility) are from July, right after 8th grade finished.

 

One more thing about velocity. Just an observation, I guess. We know three 2019's who have touched 85 over the summer (note: I'm sure there are a host of others, nationwide, these are just three that 2019Son happens to know). These velocities are on PG profiles or other independent source. So call it 7-8 mph more than 2019Son, which is a significant difference. In addition, two of 2019Son's HS classmates have touched 81 and 82 (note: again, not reported by their Dads, but independent radar readings). All 5 of these kids are heavier -- not necessarily taller -- than 2019Son, ranging from 20 lbs heavier to about 45 lbs. heavier. I know that 5 kids is a small sample size, but there does seem to be a significant correlation between body weight and velocity, and, assuming 2019Son puts on 40 - 60 lbs in high school (by comparison, I put on 50 lbs my first three years of high school), I do think there will be more velocity to come, though how much is anybody's guess.

 

Note: I'm sure their are some little Billy Wagners or junior Tim Lincecum's out there in the class of 2019, throwing 85 when they weight 120. My observation is just that there is a correlation. Maybe everybody already knows that, but it is something I really started to notice recently.

Are you sure that the coach doesn't mean let's work on mechanics and the velocity will improve? 

Velocity can't be taught, mechanics and pitching properly can.  Your son is 13,14?

I do agree that mechanics should be priortized, however I strongly disagree that velocity cannot be taught. It comes through mechanics some times, it can come through arm strengthening, working out, throwing long toss, throwing over/under load baseballs. Maybe theres a limit for everyone, but I certainly think that people can develope velocity.

While I agree you can develop it,  I believe that the velocity people want to see their player throwing, just isn't gonna happen for most. Its got to be there in the first place. 

 

That's where the projection becomes the reality.

 

 

Brother, I just have to weigh in here -- in part because I got active on this site when my son was about your son’s age. Mine’s a senior now, heading to your Pac 12 area after graduation. He's a hitter, not a pitcher – but I’ve learned a lot along the way – most of it here – and I sense, based on your post and responses, some beliefs that I think are common for dads who are where you are – but that need to evolve quickly.

 

So with the best of intentions, here ya go:

 

1. Setting all else aside, your son is a 14-year-old 5’11, 142-lb. freshman pitcher who throws mid-70’s.That’s OK, but not exceptional by a long shot. Forget AVERAGES on PG – whether we’re talking 60 speed or pitching velocity. Better than average is not the measure that matters.
2. You say with conviction that your son projects to be a much bigger boy, and you expect (though you admit to speculation) that he’ll have significantly higher velocity. I’d assume (and hope) this analysis comes from others. It had better. Based on my experience here in Texas watching elite youth pitchers over the years, I’m inclined to be skeptical (unless you’re a big man, and it’s obviously in the genes.)
3. Underneath your specific question (‘Which comes first, velocity or command, and what do I do with a HS coach who believes the opposite of what we’ve put first) seems to be a much bigger question: Does my son have what it takes? I conclude this in large part because you felt compelled to offer so much (superfluous) info in your OP (been there -- seriously).

 

All that said, here's another dad's two cents: If you and I were having a beer and you shared this story, I’d say this:

 

First: Get him to a PG showcase now. Pay the money, get the grade and read the scouting report. Because you BOTH need validation. Many parents wait, and they should. You shouldn’t. That’s what I did with JP over the summer heading into HS, and it was, in hindsight, a very good decision.

 

Second: When you get the analysis – whether you and your son are thrilled or disappointed – accept it as THE informed view, and adjust accordingly. 

 

You'll learn whether his mechanics are  sound or they're not. You'll learn whether his velocity  projects or  does not. And you'll learn a lot more.

 

Get the experts' view.

 

Good luck. Don’t leave. I enjoyed this post.

First, I think you may be misinterpreting the HS coach's instruction.  The words you used where "control his momentum."  That is a lot different than "don't throw hard" or sacrifice velocity for command.  Velocity and command are not either or.  You need both.  So work on both. 

 

Pitching velocity is a function of several things all working in unison.  Genetics plays a part.  But so do proper mechanics, strength, conditioning, and size.  As your boy refines his mechanics (and control), hits the weights, and grows he will add more velocity.  The only question is how much -- You'll need to ask the Pope.   

What I mean, is average velocity and ordinary control.  Unless you're high 80's plus, you cant just throw it by high school hitters.  He needs to be able to throw to spots and his mistakes cannot be the mistake down the middle.  If the pitch is supposed to be down and away, and he misses down the middle -- the ball will be picked up by NASA.  He needs to work the hitter away, in, up and down and has to throw a curve ball for a strike.  And he needs to be efficient doing it.  In other words, he needs to be a pitcher and not just a thrower.  Generally, there are no inning limits in HS, so the expectation is that a starting pitcher will go at least 5+ innings.  If your pitch counts are too high to get there, coach is not happy. 

 

Anyways, I'll reiterate.  Your kid is a freshman who hasn't played an inning of HS ball.  Yet you're worried about college prospects.  Sounds like you have a group of HS coaches who know what they are doing.  I'd let them do it and monitor the results. 

Actually all that a pitcher has to do is throw strikes. 

I understand your perspective. To be clear, my concern is his long-term development -- academically, morally, athletically, etc. That's my job as his father. You may be right that the high school coaches know what they are doing -- perhaps working on command first, and worrying about velocity at a later date (and, no, there is no misunderstanding -- that is specifically what the head coach said to me about their approach), is the best way to develop pitchers for the long run. I'm not convinced. I do know that there are many, many baseball people who feel otherwise.

 

Also, it would be perfectly OK with me if he didn't pitch at all (as I indicated in one of the options in the original post). He has never been primarily a pitcher -- always a baseball player who pitched sometimes (hence, the zero pitching lessons until this past summer). He is not pitching for his travel team, and they seem fine with that. His HS coaches want him to pitch. And he likes pitching. So we'll see how it goes.

 

Finally, I didn't take your initial reply as harsh -- or any of the other replies on this thread. I've read enough threads on here that I knew, before I hit the "post" button, that the majority of replies would fall into the category of "coaches are right/player is wrong/dad's probably delusional/player's probably not very good, etc." And that's fine. In fact, most of the time, that's probably the right answer! Heck, it might be the right answer this time. I tried to head off some of that by including lots and lots of info in the OP -- but as JP24 noted, the information was largely superfluous.

 

So, again, thanks to all who responded. I'm not convinced that command before velocity is the way to go -- I fall into the "let it rip" category, to use a term used above, for both pitching and hitting. But we'll see how this goes . . .

Just to illustrate that there is nothing new under the sun, or in the HSBBW, a somewhat similar issue (framed much better and described much more succinctly) -- "How does the kid listen to the HS coach, do the drill, and then "forget" what he just did? He doesn't want to tell the HS coach he doesn't like the drill." -- was discussed here: see http://community.hsbaseballweb...ach-or-hitting-coach

 

 

2019Dad,

 

I'm not sure this means much, but I have learned a lot.  Not very smart, but pretty damn old.  One thing that I have learned is most things change in baseball and all sports for that matter.

 

Even those with the most experience and expertise end up changing how they think over time.  So I tend to look at things like whatever seems to be the right way now is likely to change at some point.  Because of that it is hard for me to tell someone they are right or wrong about certain things.  We could all have different opinions and I could be positive that my opinion is a fact, only to change my mind at some point.

 

Guess what I'm saying is you might be right and you might be wrong.  Then again, everyone might be right because there is always more than one way to be successful.

 

If there were a message board back in the old days and the topic was high jumping.  I wonder what posters would say if someone claimed jumping over the bar backwards was a good approach?

 

One of the things I like the best about this site is reading all the "opinions" and sometimes adding my own.  Whether we realize it or not, we all learn things from this process. Lots of experience here, and though some are similar not any of those experiences are the same. So your opinions are no more or no less important than everyone else.  Other than a few that only want to cause trouble, people here want to help.  

 

Actually I'm sure you already know everything I just said.  Best of luck to your son.

 

There are two 2019s here in Florida that my son plays with. One of them touched 89 @ PG and the other touched 87 @ PG. The 89 guy committed to Miami before he started high school. The other guy decided not to commit early (has a bright future in football as well). Both of these guys are not known for their control and command.

So what you are saying is that your kid really isn't a pitcher, has had little formal training, and is being taught to object to his future HS coach who has a good track record before he's played an inning of HS ball.  Good luck with that.   

That's why the coach told him not to worry about the velocity, he has to learn to pitch first.

They see something in him what you don't, and this just maybe the only way he may ever get to a college field.  Unless your son hits them over the wall, he may not have a shot as a position guy later on. They obviously know what they are doing.  Your posts are confusing, is he with his travel team now or with HS team?

As I said, and as you are pointing out by posting that link,  if you have too many telling your son what to do it becomes confusing. Pick your poison. In this situation, with your son not even throwing one HS inning or up at bat, I would sit back and relax.

 

 

 

Yup, that's what I'm talking' about.  You can't teach that.  You can't get that from weighted balls, long toss, or some magical gadget to increase your velocity.

 

And with that velo at that age, you don't need control and command.

       
       
If what you mean is you can't get that BY THAT AGE through hard work I agree 100%.  As you say those are the naturals.  I knew guys like that.  Just came easy for them.  Maybe some of those guys level off and some end up throwing 96 as a senior in high school and make a boatload of money.  But honestly as I tell my son those guys are not really your competition.  My son's goal is to play college ball.  Those guys will go in the draft or to the upper echelon of D1.  There are plenty spots left for the guys who want to work hard to get to 88 or 90.  And it may take them longer but they can get there.  Doesn't matter if its at 14 or at 17 you will find a home at some college program regardless.

". . . is being taught to object to his future HS coach . . ." No, not true. Just flat out not true. 

According to your posts, sounds like your son has the potential (projection) to reach the velocity that D1 coaches are looking for, possibly one day or during his college years. Maybe even play professional after college?

 

Do people really think hitting 88-90 is easy to reach?  Keep in mind that puberty plays a big part in this.  Son actually didn't hit the higher numbers until he was a professional and he was hitting 90-91 as a senior in HS. He also was 6'3" with the arm span of an eagle and legs like an ostrich.  No brainer. But he only gained a few mph while in college as he was busy learning how to pitch rather than throw FB.  Near the end Kevin OSullivan tweaked his mechanics so he was hitting maybe 94-95 on his FB at 22-23.  He didn't hit 99 until he was closer to 30.  His body type was so project able it made him some bucks. That higher velo probably hurt somewhere to stop him from making a 25 man roster. Its very hard to throw that hard and control the ball and stay healthy.  Trust me. It takes a long time to get to that place.

 

Now I know that you get it. But many don't.  I just find it interesting that parents actually believe that if they are hitting mid 70s at 13,14 they might will hit the magic number in 3 years.  Then they get all bent out of shape when big state U shows them no love and cant figure it out.  Its not because they lack the velocity, maybe because they were soooo busy working on velocity, they don't know how to get people out. Or maybe now those older kids can hit their curve ball because they never worked on their FB. Probably, they were never meant to throw that hard in the first place, at that particular time in their career.  Or for very good reason, a coach felt that they just would not work into their program. You see what parents REALLY want is their son to go to the best to learn from the best so that they may get a bigger opportunity later on. Listen I get that, that was why we sent son to work with a great pitching coach and a HC that had a great reputation of having players drafted. I will be the first to admit that. However, if you polled the folks here you will find that only a handful  of their players attended top 50 programs and a fewer top 25 in a top 5 conference.  And most are pitchers, so if your HS coach wants to make you a pitcher, embrace that opportunity.

 

I also know that most people here have absolutely  no idea what its like to attend and play at Big State U. They get insulted when their HS coach makes them run! Or they don't get to bat 3rd or the freshman plays over their sophomore.  If people think that's tough, all I have to say is LOL. Be careful what you wish for as you all have not a clue.

If a player knows how to get on base, produce hits, throw strikes with 3 very good offerings (including the 4 seamer), has decents grades, he will play ball in college. No, it most likely will not be at big state U. But that is more than OK because more than likely he won't play past college either.  Accept where your player falls in his graduation year, get out there to see what's out there. Attending a national event is an eye opener.  Don't bite off more than you can chew until you have the skills to compete with the best.

 

I am sorry but worrying about this stuff before your son has played one HS game is a lesson in futility. Player who is relatively new to pitching, whose parent must be paying for son to attend a private HS so he could be in their program because they turn out D1 players is complaining about the coaches telling his son not to worry about the velo but embrace learning how to pitch and is having a hard time with that and wants our opinions?  Don't get that. Each and everyone of our players are biologically and physically different.  Most pitchers won't ever get over 85 by their senior year in HS. Some throwing hard wont even get to a top 50. Do you all have any idea why?

 

This is not to offend anyone.  Parents and players need to be realistic about the players ability. JP brings up a good point, attend a PG showcase, IMO not before HS, and get an evaluation because that will help YOU and your player to understand where you probably will fall as your career progresses.  And folks you need to chill out a bit, get over panic mode, enjoy the middle school years, the HS years because its over quickly and then you realized all you did was question others and worry!  And remember your sons future baseball program will not be determined by how hard you throw the ball, its so much more than that!

 

 

 

Originally Posted by 2019Dad:

Thanks. It's not so much the travel team -- he's not pitching for them so that part has no conflict.

 

Glad to hear he’s not pitching for the TT, but if he isn’t pitching for them I have a question. You didn’t say much about his hitting skills, but if he made such a high profile TT on his hitting alone, it sounds as though his hitting skills are at a higher level than his pitching skills. Is that right?

 

I don't know, maybe this kind of thing happens all the time.

 

It does, and a lot more often than people would believe.

"I understand your perspective. To be clear, my concern is his long-term development -- academically, morally, athletically, etc. That's my job as his father. You may be right that the high school coaches know what they are doing -- perhaps working on command first, and worrying about velocity at a later date (and, no, there is no misunderstanding -- that is specifically what the head coach said to me about their approach), is the best way to develop pitchers for the long run. I'm not convinced. I do know that there are many, many baseball people who feel otherwise."

 

Sometimes, as threads unfold, more information gets included to help understand the bigger picture. At the outset, I wondered how what sounds like high quality HS coaches who have been successful would be creating "conflict" by their suggestions.

This paragraph, 2019, seems to yield some hints.

As I understand the quoted language, either you have significant baseball skills and background to be able to question the HS guidance or the questioning comes from and through "many, many baseball people who feel otherwise."

I am sure everyone is well meaning.  If this is a "conflict" as  a HS freshman pitcher before he throws a single pitch, I wonder how you will address things if the HS coaches, or anyone, starts suggesting changes and "adjustments" in your son's swing, AB approach, or fielding mechanics because they think it will make him better against better competition, and your son struggles with the changes.

Just my perspective but "many, many baseball people who feel otherwise" are not the ones you chose to coach your son in HS. Coupled with that is the fact you appear to have chosen very good HS coaches who have a proven track record of success and who carefully provided the "whys" and roadmap.

Unfortunately, I think it is true.  It's not intentional, but that is what is happening the minute you didn't say "give what the HS coach is telling you a try and see how it goes."  Instead, you're going so far as suggesting, among other things, to quit pitching because you don't agree with the HS coach's mechanics and focus. 

 

 

Great HS program where "nearly every senior goes on to play in college." And freshman Dad wants to question the coaches right off the bat.

Why the hell does anyone want to coach anymore?

Tell you what, Pops, home school the kid and develop him into a first rounder yourself.

2019Dad,

 

To state the obvious you are unsure about whether to trust the coach's approach or not. In my view, that is reasonable. It really doesn't matter that the player has never thrown a high school pitch or that the coaches have a million college playing alumni. All that matters is the players mechanics and their implications, and the level of respect shown the coaches. Respect does not preclude wanting to understand the benefits or detriments of various approaches. But you cannot find the answer on this or any other forum.

 

You should be able to respectfully approach the coach and discuss how the velocity/command requirements are met through their program. The goal should be > 65% strikes and a velocity very close to or above 90mph. It should also include at least one solid off speed pitch with the same level of command or better. This goal will likely require a lot of strength training as well. You should get the coaches input on these things also. Perhaps a holistic discussion would allow you to gain understanding of their mechanics training in a less direct manner.

 

It is frequently the case that letting it rip actually short circuits the kinetic chain and reduces velocity. It is also important to make sure that when effort is applied it is in the right direction. This may mean lessening effort until the direction is corrected (through repetition) and then increasing effort again. Your son may be at the beginning of this approach.

 

There are folks with solid pedigrees that will analyse your son's delivery discreetly and confidentially and provide your with an informed opinion of his faults and how they can be corrected. With that information in hand you can then make a better informed decision whether this is the program that you want for your son or not. I would not beat up the coaches with that information. I would use it to decide how I wanted to proceed.

 

The real question is can you or your son have an informative and respectful discourse about training with the coaches or not; and if you cannot, are you going to be satisfied with trusting them to run the show. If the answer to both those questions is no, then you have some decisions to make.

 

Best wishes to you and your son,

 

Ted

 

TPM let me make some things clear if I failed to in the past.  I DO NOT believe in any way shape or form my son is a slam dunk for D1.  I would be lying if I didn't say I think he is nearly a slam dunk to play somewhere if he chooses to do so.  But you are very correct in that its not easy to get to upper 80's.   I am fairly confident he will get to low to mid 80's just through maturation and some basic mechanical improvements.  As for those mph say between 84 and 90...  those are the really hard ones.  In his favor he is dedicated to his dream.  Does his cressey style workouts religiously and he will have the size.  His hurdles will be he lacks the normal flexibility you would expect to See in a high level pitcher.  He also does not have his coordination yet due to a very rapid growth rate.  This more than anything is the key in my mind.  It makes it really hard for him to develop smooth repeatable mechanics almost turning his size into a detriment rather than a benefit.  So here is the prognosis: when he stops growing we will start getting an idea of where he is heading.  If he becomes coordinated enough to smooth out his mechanics then I might be willing to bet more on him than against him.  The lack of flexibility at that point might be the difference between throwing 95 and throwing 89.  But it won't stop him from pitching at a decent level in college.  We are also mindful of this and working with his trainer to increase his flexibility to whatever degree is possible.  If the coordination never comes - as it never does for some - then his D1 dream is over plain and simple.  I like his chances though as I also grew fast and was a much more fluid 'athlete' (and I use that term very loosely) when I was older.  Time will tell, but as I just said on another thread we don't pay the money and put in the time we do for a scholarship.  While that is his ultimate goal we see value in just playing on a really good team and the incredible fun he has playing this brand of ball.  And although I am the ultimate live and let live guy I will say I don't think anyone should pit their kid in this type of ball just for a scholarship.   If the experience in and of itself is not worth it then you probably shouldn't do it.  Which I think is kinda what you are saying.

My post was not directed negatively to you. If anyone here with a young pitcher gets it, its you.

Now here is a funny story. When son reached about 11-12 he had a tremendous growth spurt. As fluid as he was at 9/10 he was a mess. He still could hit but he looked like he was swimming as he ran base to base.  Upon entering HS we were advised to have him stop other sports. By freshman season he was back on track and much more flexible.

 

So don't worry, my son eventually grew into his paws, so there is hope.  . Just go with the flow and it will all be good.

Lots of great responses to this post. Apparently the HS coaches see potential for your son as a pitcher however they don't agree with his mechanics. Herky jerky, let it rip is not what they want to see on the mound. You've stated your son has had no formal pitching lessons yet you disagree with the first pitching coach who has attempted to improve his mechanics, his HS pitching coach. He's young, give the coaches a chance to work with him and encourage your son to be receptive to any changes they're asking him to make. Way too early to be giving yourself an ulcer. Occasionally, a coach will be determined to take a cookie cutter approach to all his pitchers. Those that can adapt see the mound and those that don't need to look at other avenues. With no other formal instruction, it's way too early in the process to make an informed decision in that respect. You might be pleasantly surprised in the next few months with both his increase in velocity and better control by 'settling down' on the mound. Reread Ted22's response above. Lot's of good advice in that post alone.  2 cts

"He also does not have his coordination yet due to a very rapid growth rate." 

 

I think you NAILED A LOT here! Changing bodies has to be a major factor all the way up to 17-18.

 

Like many of you, I'm sure ... I have marks on the garage wall where we loved to measure JP's growth. Sometimes it was slow; other times it was almost overnight. Whether pitching or hitting, think about how much changes when a boy shoots up, say, three inches over a couple of months! His arms are longer .. his legs, torso or both are different ... even his strike zone has changed when he's hitting.

 

And don't even get me started on the hormones, and how their view of themselves and others changes! Whew!

Yes,thank you. Just getting caught up -- had 4 baseball games, 2 soccer games, and 1 swim meet this weekend amongst my kids, so I was tied up. And, yes, I think Ted22's post was great, also. Lot's of good advice. And many of the other posts had good advice, as well.

 

One thing that got lost, somehow, is that 2019Son has been working with the HS varsity pitching coach for 13 months. In the very first bullet point in the OP I said "he played for the HS coaches on a travel team in 8th grade." I guess I didn't communicate it clearly enough, but the HS varsity pitching coach was also the pitching coach on his 8th grade travel team. Same guy. 2019Son never had private pitching lessons, or personal pitching lessons, until this summer, but as part of his regular team practices he threw a weekly bullpen with the pitching coach all through 8th grade, and the pitching coach was at his games, and calling pitches at them, etc. Maybe to some of the folks here, asking questions after 13 months gets viewed as wanting to "question the coaches right off the bat" . . . but I don't see it that way. 

 

In any event, I'm a big believer that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I don't, however, think that people are entitled to their own facts. It's been a little strange on this particular thread. Just for one example, I said "he has never been primarily a pitcher -- always a baseball player who pitched sometimes," and somehow that gets spit back at me that he's not an experienced pitcher. Um, no, that's not factually correct. I've thought about it a bit, and I'm guessing that some of it may be due to regional, geographical differences. I mean, although 2019Son really didn't get started in travel ball until age 12 (he had played a grand total of two tournaments in his life before his 12U year, both in the summer before 12U started), because he was playing soccer, flag football, basketball, etc., he played a lot of baseball at 12, 13, and 14. A lot. For instance, between little league and travel ball, he played 125 games in his 12U year, and between travel ball and his junior high school team, about 75 in each of 13U and 14U. Across those 375 games, he pitched plenty, but he was not primarily a pitcher. At least around here, "not primarily a pitcher" ≠ not an experienced pitcher, or "not really a pitcher." It may well be different in other places.

 

I think Ted22 nailed it here, particularly the last sentence, when he said: "To state the obvious you are unsure about whether to trust the coach's approach or not. In my view, that is reasonable. It really doesn't matter that the player has never thrown a high school pitch or that the coaches have a million college playing alumni. All that matters is the players mechanics and their implications, and the level of respect shown the coaches. Respect does not preclude wanting to understand the benefits or detriments of various approaches. But you cannot find the answer on this or any other forum."

 

I do think there is a reasonable debate to be had about what's better: (1) velocity first, then command; or (2) command first, then velocity. And I did think the side topic on this thread about elite velocity (e.g., 2019s hitting 89 and 87) kind of made my point about the importance of velocity. And I recently observed all of the lower velocity kids get cut at travel team tryouts. But, again, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Indeed, it may be easier to have those debates without facts related to a specific kid.

2019Dad, I did not pick up that the HS Varsity coach had been working with your son over the last year or so.  Is it just now coming up that he wants to work with him on not falling off?  If so, I'm wondering why that wasn't brought up earlier?  If he has been trying to get him to change some things prior to this, why is it just becoming an issue now?

 

I do not think working on velocity vs command need to be mutually exclusive.  I also do not think that working on mechanics will lead to a decrease in velocity - necessarily.  It is not a given that just "letting it rip" will bring about a miraculous increase in velocity.  Very often, changes in mechanics CAN bring about an increase in velocity.  A change in mechanics can also bring about an increase in command.

 

Your son's mechanics may be perfect.  They could also be very flawed.  I have no idea.  But without having had any "formal" or "individual" pitching instruction, I can't see where trying some things will hurt.  

 

Like I said in the beginning, I'm interested to know what the coach has or hasn't been saying over the last year, prior to this fall.  There must be some reason this is coming up now.  Or why it is just now becoming a problem for you at this point...

It's come up before, certainly, though in a minor way and the pitching coach is a man of few words. And 2019Son does fall off! Maybe too much -- or, more accurately, on some occasions he falls off too much, other times it's not too bad. Inconsistent, I suppose. What came up recently was the trash can drill, which caused 2019Son to over-correct by striding way towards third base, which caused him to throw across his body. Oh, and if you touch the trash can, you have to run four laps around the field (which 2019Son tries to sprint as best he can, but that's a story for another day). Hence, the over-correction to avoid the laps.

 

Plus, there was the recent conversation with the varsity head coach in which he discussed the command first philosophy (which was definitely the first time I heard that), and it got me wondering: is that the right approach? Which led me to post here.

 

I will note this: the pitching coach who he worked (briefly) with over the summer focused on something different: the takeaway. In short, if your takeaway is too much towards first base (think Madison Bumgarner's takeaway if he were a righty), instead of back towards second base, that may cause problems -- injury risk, plus you may have a tendency to over-rotate, which can cause falling off (Bumgarner avoids falling off by stepping towards first base and then throwing across his body, but he's big and strong enough to pull it off). To me that's more sensible than putting a trash can down so that the kid steps towards the third base line and then throws across his body -- especially if the kid is not going to be 6'5" 240 lbs like Bumgarner -- but I'm no expert.

Well, stepping off to the 3rd base side is certainly not the correct fix for falling off.  There are other things that can be done to correct falling off too much from time to time.  You always want to step towards the target.  Over-rotating can cause some arm drag.  What will you will often see is pitches either missing up and in to a righty - caused by the arm falling behind the body  or missing down and away to a righty - caused by whipping the arm thru trying to catch up to the body.  All of this is telling you that things are out of synch.  Being out of synch leads to a decrease in both velocity and command.

 

Seem to me like over-rotating/opening the front shoulder too early is what your son needs to work on.  I'm guessing your son has a 3/4 arm slot.  You will often see this problem with guys who throw 3/4.  It would be interesting to see what your son's glove side does in his delivery.  That is often an indication of what is going on.  Having a solid front side and focusing on keeping the front shoulder closed as long as possible will help with this.  Once again, I'm not saying that falling off is a terrible thing.  But when you "fall off too much" as you have stated, is an indicator that something else is going on.  The garbage can thing can be helpful - as long as you are making the right changes to correct the issue.  Stepping more to 3rd base is not the right change.  Working on keeping the front shoulder closed and watching the glove side is the right thing.  

 

Like I mentioned in my previous post, watch the Gibson and Martinez clips again.  Watch their glove side.  Gibson keeps his glove close to his body until after he releases the ball, then it flies open and wild.  Pedro keeps his glove close to his body all the way thru, including as he's falling off.  They are not over-rotating.  If your son's glove side is wild and inconsistent, it will lead to inconsistent command and a lack of velocity.  If his glove side is flying away from his body, he is yanking his shoulder open and he is over-rotating.  I think this is not only robbing velocity and accuracy, but is not good for the shoulder or elbow.  Arm drag will lead to health problems as he gets older and starts throwing harder.

 

If I'm off base, fine.  I haven't seen your son pitch.  I'm speculating based on what you have shared and what I have seen over the years.  Take it or leave it.  It's up to you - unless you want to post a video of your son pitching.  Then we can see whether any changes need to be made or not.

I think I would worry more about the games your son has played in 3years!

Instead of asking us, and getting upset with our responses and never seen your son pitch or hit, you need to readdress this with the coach.

 

Not sure why you are so upset with your son not making a travel team, NEXT spring.  Let him get through his first year in HS.

 

JMO

I'm not upset with my son not making a travel team, NEXT spring. Mostly because there is no travel team that he didn't make. I apologize if I have given the impression that there is any issue with making a travel team, or not making a travel team. There is not.

You are right about the 3/4 arm slot. And I think your (informed) speculation is probably correct as well. I'll focus on the glove side.

 

I have a grainy video on a phone that i am trying to get transferred so that I can share it, Give me a few minutes.

I was going by what you said about travel teams dropping kids with lower velo. And with the concerns you have about command first, velo second according to your understanding what the coach said...well you get what I am saying?

 

Yes, I understand. And I understand how I confused things for you -- but 2019Son was not one of the kids cut from that travel team. Sorry for the confusion.

Whew, think I'll mix a toddy and move on. Good luck 2019Dad. You'll get it figured out.

Well, apparently Hudl Technique (formerly known as Ubersense) only allows you to download a video to a computer if you use iOS, and my phone is an Android. So I'm out of luck with the two existing videos I have of him pitching. I'll see if I can get some video next weekend. Thanks.