Negative Coaches........

.

While I have always been a fan of "positive" coaching and have little tolerance for non constructive criticism...the boys faced it with some the coaches they had over the years...

Always told them...

"See that coach, the one you don't like dealing with? The one your going to find difficult for the next 4 months? While I can get involved, and I will if you want me to.... My suggestion is that you get used to it. I'm sorry but your going to see him for the rest of your life. In the workplace...In the class...Our politicians...Your inlaws... These type of people are everywhere...Get over it. Get used to it. The faster you do the quicker you can get on top, and beyond the situation. Be bigger than they are. If you can learn this lesson your way ahead in the game of life."

44

Last year we benched a player after two bad performances in a tournament--before the third game he askes the coaching staff why he was not starting--simple--"son you are hurting the team--get it together" --midway thru the third game he is asked to get ready to pinch hit-- he says "Coach I don't feel like playing in this game"--well guess what folks !--I think you know the answer-- and he got it in front of the entire team--is this humiliation? Is this negative coaching? is this "pathetic"?

By the way the kid who hit got a single to get us back into the game--Aint life funny !!!

You know what is "PATHETIC"?--at least to this old timer=--- it is the parents and kids thinking and believing they are due something. I was taught you earn what you get and I still believe that.

If that is not ok with you that is fine---it is OK with me !!! I have my standards and "I drive the bus"

Will:

Your example is another one showing excellent coaching.

Not running out a ground ball or a pop-up is a cardinal sin in baseball and everyone knows that...you taught that player a very valuable lesson...for his sake I hope he learned the lesson well!

44:

Excellent.

What you can learn on the ballfield is truly applicable elsewhere in life...great post!

I will preface my comments on this issue, by saying I am sure I will receive some negative comments regarding my position on this issue.

As a parent, not a coach, my position is one of observation.

Coaches are too often labeled as "bad coaches" because they use negative tactics to berate players. Not to say I have not seen things done or heard things said that are not acceptable in any situation. I can easily relate, because I have seen things reminiscent of the scene from the Bad News Bears where the father/coach slaps down his own son for costing the team, all because he wanted to pitch to the clean up hitter.

That being said:
I believe public, confined to the members of the team, criticism can serve a major purpose, especially if directed at a prominent member of the team. No one dogs it, no one gives less than 100%, no one individual is above the team.

I also believe coaches at the high school level have little time to coddle our children, when they are wrong. That does not mean calling a player out on the field to embarrass him in front of anyone that can hear.

I think parents, naturally jump to the defense of their own children and many times to the defense of kids they have watched grow up, but too many times we have no idea what else may be going on. Is the kid sulking on the bench? Is the kid blatantly doing things that supercede the authority of the coach? How many times has the coach asked something to be done, yet no results?

All too often parents on the sidelines think that they can do a better job, or believe someone else is more capable than the current coach. The real issue exists outside of the high schools, especially in the lower age groups where little teaching is going on. In what amounts to the most informative years our kids are put onto "elite" teams where the better players are elevated to levels no 13 or 14 year old should be.

Most high school coaches, at least most that I know, coach for a small stipend that suplements their normal teaching incomes. They have our kids for three hours a day, max.

Ask yourself this. If a high school coach that uses negative tactics wins all the time, is he still a "bad coach"?
How about the high school coach that is always positive, kids love him, but never wins, is he a "good coach"?

I played high school football and baseball for a coach that yelled, screamed, and chastised us all the time on the field. I also had the opportunity to learn from him in the classroom where he shaped, molded, and developed our minds.
I would not change a thing. I know of no other one individual who had a greater impact on my life.

So before labeling someone, be careful you know the whole story.

quote:

If that is not ok with you that is fine---it is OK with me !!! I have my standards and "I drive the bus"

...and all you have to do is ask and the bus will stop and let you off.

.
Wood Man...

In the end...it's all life lessons isn't it?

All about our internal not their external....

Thanks...

44

The great coaches have both the steel and the velvet.

Bobby Knight said the other day...."think back on the teacher you had that you learned the most from."

Many, many times it was the teacher that "made" you learn. Probably with some steel. Probably with some velvet.

quote:

I played high school football and baseball for a coach that yelled, screamed, and chastised us all the time on the field. I also had the opportunity to learn from him in the classroom where he shaped, molded, and developed our minds.
I would not change a thing. I know of no other one individual who had a greater impact on my life.

I can appreciate your gratitude toward this coach. Shaped, molded and developed are powerful and positive words. I hope we have all been forutunate enough to have people like this in our lives that have made us better.

As for good coach or bad coach.... I am of the opinion that it is not always based on wins and losses. Can you teach? Can you lead? Can you shape, mold and develop? Hence the term 'coach'.

Unfortunately, some just want to fill out the lineup card and look sharp in the uniform but have no idea how to do the things mentioned above. To me...that's a bad coach.

RZ

the bus has made stops more than once

TRhit:

Your example is again another one of excellent coaching.

The player in question was not contributing productively for the team in the first two games of the tournament. He was told by the coach "son you are hurting the team--get it together". Nothing wrong with that...the team deserved a player that could contribute. At that point he had not earned his spot.

When the benched player later refused to play then the lashing he got was deserved. He should have been grateful for the chance to redeem himself...instead he got a valuable lesson about the worth of self pity...in this case it was worthless!

I like your attitude TR...I too believe very, very strongly in the idea of you earn what you get.

What gives me much grief is a coach that states that philosophy and then goes about coaching otherwise.

I'm not suggesting that you're guilty of that TR...I wouldn't know...I'm just telling you that players and families that respect that philosophy will gravitate towards coaches like you who espouse that.

You're the type of old fashioned coach that we are constantly looking for.

I don't want to "show my age" but in years past mom, dad, and the pc correct school systems kept their nose out athletics. Now many HS teams consists of players and a vitual board of directors consisting of parents and "pocket protector" administrators that will grade a coaches every move. If you look at todays leaders many have had strong a HS athletic background. I'm concerned that pool of strong willed individuals will be on the decrease because many of todays athletes are coddled by parents and hide behind the cloak of pc school systems.

There will be those that filter through, but, the overall team will not be as deep.

Infopimp:

I like that...steel and velvet.

This implies that the coach is thinking and switching gears as needed. That is the sign of a good coach and good teacher in my mind.

quote:

I like that...steel and velvet.

I guess in todays society it has a better connotation than leather and lace.

rz1:

Well leather and lace may also imply that someone is switching gears as needed, but those are gears that I don't know too much about and I'm not about to start learning!

quote:

I'm concerned that pool of strong willed individuals will be on the decrease because many of todays athletes are coddled by parents and hide behind the cloak of pc school systems.

Many have left and more to come.

quote:

How can they have respect for the coaches that have no idea how to teach them but are so quick to chew on them or embarrass them for mistakes?

You make a very broad statement here. How do you know they did not teach them. big assumption on your part.

Got,
Remember my Republic of Madison roots and the fact the mascots are unisex and team colors are usually pastels.

I must have been abandoned here at birth as a sacrifical conservative lamb.

But, Playboy just announced that the Univ of WI is the #1 party school in the country. I'm so proud.

DBAT, unfortunately your in the vast minority.

To coach is to train by instruction and demonstration. A 5 y/o sitting in the stands can yell across the field that the SS is a bone-head for dropping the ball or throwing it over the 1B's head.

Sure there are times ya gotta get in a players face for dragging his arse. But as far as coaching the elements of the game, check negativity at the door in my book. JMHO

Negative Coaches, they are at all levels of the game, and if you play long enough, sooner or later you will run into them.

I think some of the problem is that many of the coaches are from a different generation than the players today. What worked for coaches sometimes in their hey day(Negative comments, and jumping on a player verbally) doesn't get the job done today.

I coached at the JUCO level last year, as a pitching coach. I think it helped me that I still play myself on the adult level, because I could show the pitchers that I coached some of the pitches and concepts that I still use.

I tried not to worry so much about drills, etc, but tried to focus on being positive and trying to have the pitchers beleive in them selves. Alot of how I coached was influenced by one postive coach from my past , and one negative one. I tried to emulate how the postive coach would "pump me up" before a game, and tried to avoid how the negative coach made me feel when I played for him.

At least, that is how I tried to approach coaching at it seemed to work well in dealing with the kids.

My 2 Cents,

-BH
http://www.HackettBaseball.com

NYdad and others,
Do you have the same expectations of the level of negativity in regard to a college coach?

rz1:

quote:

Originally posted by rz1:
Got,
Remember my Republic of Madison roots and the fact the mascots are unisex and team colors are usually pastels.

I must have been abandoned here at birth as a sacrifical conservative lamb.

But, Playboy just announced that the Univ of WI is the #1 party school in the country. I'm so proud.

Pastels huh? So when will the Badgers be pretty in pink? Soon?

And as far as you being abandoned at birth...you're reading too much into it...there was no lamb involved rz...you were just abandoned...plain and simple!

gotwood,

That is so negative, hurtful, and I'm very embarrassed that you said that in front of my fellow websters. But how can I learn without the truth coming out Thank-you for not candy-coating that.

HackettBaseball:

quote:

Originally posted by HackettBaseball:
Alot of how I coached was influenced by one postive coach from my past , and one negative one. I tried to emulate how the postive coach would "pump me up" before a game, and tried to avoid how the negative coach made me feel when I played for him.

At least, that is how I tried to approach coaching at it seemed to work well in dealing with the kids.

My 2 Cents,

-BH
http://www.HackettBaseball.com

The pitchers you worked with benefitted from your past experience...you took forward those positive attributes from your good coach and you had the good sense to leave the bad ones behind from your poor coach.

It is important to note that positive lessons can be learned from negative situations...in this case the poor coach exhibited behavior that was first recognized, then deemed unproductive, and finally left behind.

In my book, that's moving forward...and that is a good thing!

Hackettbball brings up another topic.

Does an assistant coach take a different approach toward the player/coach relationship? Good cop - bad cop. Looking back I can see many instances of this. An assistant may be over-stepping his role if he jumps to hard on a player, that's the coaches job.

rz1:

I'm so sorry rz...I didn't mean to embarrass you. I shouldn't have done that...your face rz...it's turning color because of the embarrassment...such a lovely color of pink!


If I had a bag of pastel colored after dinner mints right now I would shower them on you...and don't think that would be some attempt to candy-coat the topic!

Please let me know when you've simmered down and you're in the area...Al's Beef stand is around the corner from UIC...I owe you one...and I promise not to abandon you!

Personally, as an assitant coach I think you have to be on the same page as the head coach when it comes to everything from instruction to discipline on a team. It's a united front, and good cop/bad cop doesnt always work.

I acutually left a collegiate baseball program this past fall based on the fact that I just didnt see eye to eye with the head coach on coaching philosophy. It wasn't anything personal, we just were not on the same page in how we coached.

I think "respect" plays into the coach/player relationship too. I always tell my players if they showed up on time, worked hard, and listened to what I was telling them, that I would show them respect. BUT....If you get a kid that is a "know it all", puts others on the team down, shows up late, etc. then the it becomes a problem on the team and can affect the teams morale.

quote:

quote:
How can they have respect for the coaches that have no idea how to teach them but are so quick to chew on them or embarrass them for mistakes?


You make a very broad statement here. How do you know they did not teach them. big assumption on your part.

Will: This was a general statement about coaches that conduct themselves in this manner and I stand by it. Besides, if they did teach them then common sense dictates that my remark would not pertain to that particular coach, correct?

If a coach doesn't know how to teach the game or how to correct the mistakes then the negativity is usually born from their frustration of not being able to improve a player or a situation.

Experience has taught me that teenage ballplayers are quite perceptive and know very well the difference between a good coach and a bad one. If the 'bad coach' yells at a kid for not doing something right yet the coach simply cannot show him how to do it right....well, the kid is usually left wondering "Why don't YOU show me if you're so smart."

Thus a lack of respect from the player.

quote:

If a coach doesn't know how to teach the game or how to correct the mistakes then the negativity is usually born from their frustration of not being able to improve a player or a situation.

How do you know that. Are you there everyday.do you attend practices and see what goes on.?

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Will - that response is pathetic. absolutely pathetic.

"go ahead and tell me how it was in the old days" A little jab at my age or maybe experience.

not a jab at your age, but your insistance on thinking that everything was so much better back in the day. things change, and not always for the worse.

it really has nothing to do with age; its a frame of mind that you can bully kids, that's all..

and TR, just b/c you may be an "old timer" doesn't imply anything to me. its an individual by individual thing. All old timers don't have the same attitude.


and... if a kid misses a sign, believe me, he hears it from me. repetitive mental mistakes are not okay with me, and a kid may very well get benched for doing it more than once. It doesn't give me the right to "rip" into him, "demoralize" him, or anything of the sort. It gives me the right to talk to him and let him know what I expect, and that actions do have consequences.


we can agree to disagree on this. its not worth getting all worked up on an internet board about it...

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
maybe I should have told him not to worry about it. Or even forget about it. Now that would be "pathetic"

yes, I agree. That would be pathetic. But its become obvious that you're trying to twist people's comments and spin them to your liking. I'm not buying it. We're talking about being abusive to kids, verbally, mentally, whatever... you are twisting it into thinking that any kind of constructive criticism is deemed wrong by me/us, and that is pretty pathetic. for an "old timer", you still seem to need to grow up.

And TR - if you want to jump on his bandwagon, go right ahead. But you'd be missing my point..

quote:

quote:
If a coach doesn't know how to teach the game or how to correct the mistakes then the negativity is usually born from their frustration of not being able to improve a player or a situation.


How do you know that. Are you there everyday.do you attend practices and see what goes on.?

You seem rather defensive here, Will. No need to be unless you see much of yourself within the walls of this here thread.

Let's just say I have witnessed first-hand of what I speak. Not to mention that out of the many kids whose baseball lives I have been blessed to have been a part of, however briefly, I have listened to this story over and over and over.

Once again, Will. A coach that does teach his players would not be the subject of my original comments. It was intended to be in regard to those that do not.

quote:

Originally posted by d8:
Is this negative? I have a freshman in my program that needs to make some corrections in his machanics. I told him (one on one and no yelling) specific things he needed to correct. I have had our sub-varsity coaches working on this with him. Yet, he has made no adjustment to his game. Last week I told him that if he wanted to play on varsity he was going to have to do the specific things we had talked about to improve his game. Right after practice his dad comes running out on to the field scream that I hurt his son's feelings by being so negative.....

are you serious? of course there's nothing wrong with this, assuming you know what you're talking about. If the kid was 10 for 10 this year with 5 bombs, I think I'd leave him alone though.


coincidentally, my kid's freshman coach is trying to change his swing. I'm not real happy about it. I've been working with him for the last two years to get a better swing, and stop lunging and being a linear (albiet successful) hitter. Now his coach says he's hitting too many fly balls and wants him to change his stance to stand up straighter. By the way, he's 3-6 this season with 3 walks, a double and a triple as the number 5 hitter.

To me, the coach should be working with some other kids.. To change a stance is not fixing a problem, in my eyes.

BUT.... I do tell my kid to listen to his coach, but to ask the coach respectively why he thinks a particular change is going to help. I'm thinking this coach doesn't want to be questioned, but we'll see... and the coach does know that I coach these kids in the summer.

a batting stance, alot like a pitching motion is a very hard thing to change, especially at the high school level.

In most cases, these kids have had this same stance for years and years, so it is ingrained into their makeup as a batter.

It is almost best, in my opinion, to try and make smaller adjustments in a stance/swing, rather than scrap it for a complete stance makeoever.

Example- Such as maybe in their footwork, or where they hold the bat, a very small adjustment can be the key to trying to help them.

When I see a pitcher with poor mechanics, I always say the same thing to them, "Listen, this is my opinion on why your not throwing as well as you want to, you can take it leave it. My only concern here is that I want you to improve".

I try to let the player know that if I want them to adjust how they throw or bat, that it is to help them, and I also let them know why I would want them to change thier stance or pitching motion.

goMO,

Are you sure you're not from Madison?

I don't think anyone is worked up on this topic, and off the cuff I would think that many parents would percieve your benching a player as a "rip" and "demoralizing". In many peoples minds that may be looked at as a negative coaching tatic.

I think there is a fine and floating line between rip/demoralizing and "tough love" and the only one who knows the intent is the person giving it out. The rest us make our own determinations without wearing the "giver" or "recievers" shoes.

I remember a coach of my sons "ripping" into him off the field but in front of the team for a bonehead play. I was livid. After the game I asked my son about it and he said he had it coming, and the coach was right for going after him. Later in the year over a few beers the topic came up and the coach said the outburst was directed at him but the message was for the team, and if I heard it I was probably to close to the dugout. I guess I over reacted and did not know the whole story.

Since I wrote my strong opinion on this matter early on in this thread, I thought I would re-clarify some things to those who don't read well.
Negative, we can all look it up, is the opposite of positive. Also opposite of constructive and instructive.
No one, I mean No one was ever instructed by negativity. Were they instructed by a negative person who shaped and molded them? Possibly.
PC garbage, throw it all out as fas ar I'm concerned.
But when I spend countless hours teaching players the right fundamentals of the game, and then they regress, I feel its time for me to re-explain where their week points are and ask them what they didn't do correctly and where they are mentally. That may include a raised voice by me. That will not include humiliating a player who tries hard and who I decided to stick with as a position player, because I will stick with him thru thick and thin.
Mental mistakes make me mental, and the player will be dealt with, but not humiliated.
Now, that said, if a player muffs a gb, then curses, throws the ball in a fashion that shows unsportsmanship, gets cocky with a coach, then he will be dealt with accordingly.
Player doesn't run out anything, he will be removed from the game and I will explain why. Of course he knows what he did, but I am going to remind him whats expected and required of my players.
Some of the old timers here think we want to go soft on kids. Not this guy. I want them to learn first, understand whats expected of them, remind them when they get out of position, don't get their glove down, miss a cut, miss a sign, but I will continue teaching them if they want to learn.
This game will be played best by players and teams that are loose and I will determine who needs to be woken up and who needs to be joked around with.
I also don't like seeing coaches who move out on the field between innings, so that fans, parents and other team coaches can watch as they scold a player, all the time rolling their eyes around the crowd to check the reaction. EGO.
I do believe that as players grow and mature, move up the ladder to higher levels, they will have to take more responsibility for there habits and actions. Coaches should hold them to it.
Another bad one I saw recently was at a little league 14U game. Player on 1b with small lead, doesn't read the pitcher well and gets picked. Coach comes flying out, I thought he was going after the ump. He runs up to the player and screams, "you dumbell, you can't be getting picked like a statue at this level, you'll never play anywhere unless you get your head out of your butt". At This Level? First year at taking a lead, first year seeing a pick move?
Thats what I am talking about.
Again, teach, drill, instruct, preach a little, get to know them, make sure they get to know you, what you're made of, what you expect of them. Make sure the Young ones know that its OK to make an error, as long as their attitude doesn't negatively effect the team, and they will learn to play this game well and will have fun doing it.

quote:

You seem rather defensive here, Will. No need to be unless you see much of yourself within the walls of this here thread.

speak for yourself dont imply I do not know how to coach and do not know how to teach.

quote:

Some of the old timers here think we want to go soft on kids

Really, I've never gotten that feeling from anyone on this site.

As far as the pc comment. Kudos to you and your program for not letting outside factors play into your coaching style or program development. It is an issue in many places.

quote:

speak for yourself dont imply I do not know how to coach and do not know how to teach.

I was speaking for myself, Will. You asked the questions and were quite defensive in doing so. I just responded.

For the record and to the best of my knowledge I have never attended one of Will's practices.

quote:

Some of the old timers here think we want to go soft on kids. Not this guy. I want them to learn first, understand whats expected of them, remind them when they get out of position, don't get their glove down, miss a cut, miss a sign, but I will continue teaching them if they want to learn.

that pretty much sums it up for me. good job!