No Hitter Etiquette?

quote:

Originally posted by zombywoof:
your best bunter and fastest player drops on down and gets on, then he did his job. There is no rule that says you can't bunt just because a pitcher is throwing a no-hitter.

Then, why didn't he do it again, in the ninth inning, instead of ending the game with a pop foul?

I recall Big Papi and Jim Edmonds both bunting towards third with the shift on (both post-season I believe)

If you're all gonna stand over there then I'm gonna hit it over here!

quote:

Originally posted by AntzDad:

Then, why didn't he do it again, in the ninth inning, instead of ending the game with a pop foul?

I suppose it was because in that situation, he going to swing away.

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:


Now if Big Papi drops a bunt up third base because they have that shift on him going then yeah that's bush league. He doesn't have the drag bunt in his skill set so he shouldn't resort to that.

I completely disagree coach. If the opposing team wants to load up the right side of the infield, I don't know why it would be considered bush if a player lays a bunt down? Heck, they're basically daring the batter to do it. The only reason I wouldn't advise Big Papi to do it, is he has a chance to hit the ball out anytime he's in that batters box...especially at Fenway!

I've watched ESPN and MLB Network the last 24 hours, and I've learned that the commentators (former MLB players) are just as divided on this issue (Aybar bunt) as we are here on this website. That's what makes it fun, everyone looks at it differently.

Guys I'm talking about Big Papi dropping a bunt down to break up a no no being bush league. Overall, I agree that he should drop a bunt down more often but even then I doubt the defense would adjust to him.

If there is a no no in the late innings and Big Papi comes up down 5 runs or more and drops a bunt to get on base then that's bush league. That's a cheap way to get on. If it's in the early innings and he does drop a bunt down then I don't see it as bush league.

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All of this talk is making me hungry...






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Thanks for posing the question bsbl247. Wow, this topic is just as divisive as the debt ceiling debate in Congress. Great topic and great points about one of baseballs oldest unwritten rules. I'm getting the sense that nobody is stradling the middle on this one, which makes it all the better.

Sandman brought up the point that Verlander choked under pressure to field the bunt last Sunday. I totally agree that it was all on Verlander, and he should have easily got the out. This sounds vaguely familiar as he did the same in the World Series a few years ago (2006) against St Louis. Remember? I'm a huge Verlander (VA native) fan, but he has to make that play or we wouldn't be talking about it right now.

I think a team having to choke down a no hitter should be expected to fight like hell not to let it happen. They should be expected to try anything they could dream up (within the rules).

Think how cool that would be. As the pitcher gets farther and farther down the gauntlet of a no-no, crazier challenges start coming at him from the other team's bench: People going deep in the counts and deliberately fouling off as many pitches as they can, Big Papi tries to fool the shift with a bunt, the last 3 batters in the 9th are high-average contact pinch hitters, stuff like that.

Then if the pitcher survives it, he's really done something awesome.

But no...we're all going to tell ourselves that there's certain kind of gentlemen's standard of limited agression in this situation, and let our million-dollar athletes let us down by leaving something out of the game.

B.S.

quote:

Originally posted by bsbl247:
I've watched ESPN and MLB Network the last 24 hours, and I've learned that the commentators (former MLB players) are just as divided on this issue (Aybar bunt) as we are here on this website. That's what makes it fun, everyone looks at it differently.

There are the traditionalists who believe in the game being played as gentleman (as it should) and then there are the newer breed who say win at all costs. It depends on the coaching too, old school vs new.

As I asked, how many no no's have been broken up by the bunt?

Too me, Angels are in a very tight pennant race, score is only 3-0, Aybar Bunting in that situation is not bush. He is the lead off hitter in that inning and he has the tools to pull it off. Team comes first, anyone who thinks that was bush given "ALL" the circumstances is off base in my opinion. Aybar was only competing, nothing wrong with that. Now if the score was 10-0 and the Angels had no way of getting to the post season, then it would be bush.

YOU PLAY TO WIN AT ALL TIMES AND AT ALL COSTS-IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH OLDSCHOOL,NEWBREED WHATEVER

I googled "bunting to break up no hitter?".

This is one result.

05/28/2001 -

SAN DIEGO — Oh, those pesky "unwritten rules" of baseball.

With Curt Schilling just five outs away from a perfect game Saturday night, San Diego's Ben Davis blooped a bunt for a single and opened a classic — and nasty — debate.

Some of the Diamondbacks seethed right then, spending the rest of the game peppering Davis, the Padres' catcher, with obscenities.

After Schilling completed the three-hitter for the Diamondbacks' 3-1 win, manager Bob Brenly called Davis' move "chicken."

Schilling (8-1) said he was "a little stunned" that Davis would bunt so late in what could have been the 15th perfect game in modern history. He said he'd always heard that players should earn their way on base that late in a no-hitter or perfect game.

On Sunday, little changed. Brenly, a former big league catcher, still contended that Davis' bunt was "chicken."

But he said it falls into one of the many gray areas in those "unwritten rules" that players and managers love to quote.

"Like I said, that's the way I was raised in the game," said Brenly, who came out of the broadcast booth to take his first managerial job. "That doesn't mean that I'm right and they're wrong, that's just the way I was taught how to play the game."

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

quote:

Originally posted by bsbl247:
I've watched ESPN and MLB Network the last 24 hours, and I've learned that the commentators (former MLB players) are just as divided on this issue (Aybar bunt) as we are here on this website. That's what makes it fun, everyone looks at it differently.

There are the traditionalists who believe in the game being played as gentleman (as it should) and then there are the newer breed who say win at all costs. It depends on the coaching too, old school vs new.

As I asked, how many no no's have been broken up by the bunt?

Not enough.... I'll buy into to the traditiion of not doing everything you can do to win. When pitchers start grooving fastballs to hitters who need a hr to complete the cycle

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
YOU PLAY TO WQIN AT ALL TIMES AND AT ALL COSTS-IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH OLDSCHOOL,NEWBREED WHATEVER

Really....read the above by Antzdad.

I didn't say I agree or disagreed with the play, just that there are "unwritten rules" in baseball which have been around for many years.

I always felt busting up a no hitter or perfect game would be one of them.

First off......Ordonez should have run the bases and let the umpire make the fair or foul call. Just because your in the big leagues now shouldn't change the basics.

Secondly......as a batter your job is to get on base anyway possible within the rules of the game, no-hitter going or not. Last time I checked bunting is an approved way to get on base.

quote:

Originally posted by vladfan:
First off......Ordonez should have run the bases and let the umpire make the fair or foul call. Just because your in the big leagues now shouldn't change the basics.

Says who?

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"Not enough.... I'll buy into to the traditiion of not doing everything you can do to win. When pitchers start grooving fastballs to hitters who need a hr to complete the cycle."

I agree with you dswann...and at that point it no longer is a game, it is a show. A very predictable show.



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really now--because antz dad rxpresses an opinion i have to agree with him--

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
really now--because antz dad rxpresses an opinion i have to agree with him--

No, not at all. This is just a debate about one of those 'unwritten rules'.

Does the import of the particular game matter? 7th game of World Series change the discussion? Unwritten rules any different then?

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:
I have never put on a bunt to break up a no no.

Because you understand more about "the game" inside the game.

you can all worry about etiquette--will play to win

So, will you steal third in the last inning, when you're up 10-0?

so---why woould qI do that---that has no rlation to this discussion

You gotta score runs. You never know.

Which unwritten rules do we follow?

Which unwritten rules do we ignore?

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"There are the traditionalists who believe in the game being played as gentleman (as it should) and then there are the newer breed who say win at all costs. It depends on the coaching too, old school vs new."

When the game of baseball was in its infancy were there 'old schoolers'? 'New schoolers'? I would assume that the aim back then was to win, plainly and simply. No one was looking to preserve a no hitter during the course of the game.

How many years passed before there was a no hitter? When did the tradition start regarding the preservation of a no hitter? After five no hitters had been recorded? After twenty? After fifty?

I'm with the crowd now that argues for winning using all available tools, strategies, and weapons. Am I 'new school'? I would have had the same attitude back in the mid 1800's. Would I have been 'old school' then?

Beat the other team. That's what it is all about for me. How you go about accomplishing that is open for discussion, but not trying is not.

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quote:

He said he'd always heard that players should earn their way on base that late in a no-hitter or perfect game.

Putting down a bunt that is good enough to get a hit sounds like "earning" it to me!

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Does the import of the particular game matter? 7th game of World Series change the discussion? Unwritten rules any different then?

Case in point. Very good.

quote:

you can all worry about etiquette--will play to win

TRhit

Can you all believe it.. TR and I actually agree on something!

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:
I have never put on a bunt to break up a no no.

Because you understand more about "the game" inside the game.

......TPM. There are those that understand "the game within the game". I only know Coach May through his posts here on the HSBBWeb, but it doesn't surprise me a bit that he leans more on the traditional side and the longtime "unwritten rules". As I said earlier, Scioscia is Old School too, and would never have bunted to break up a No No...but the circumstances changed in the prior inning and Scioscia played the Eye for an Eye game, JMO. Admittedly, the bunt surprised me, but I was excited as I stood from my chair yelling at the TV..."that's right, take that! Shove it right down Guillen's throat!" Afterwards, I felt bad for Verlander, but let's face it, his teammate brought it on. That's the biggest reason why I started this thread, and yes, our feelings are divided. Talk to a pitcher, and the majority will think the bunt is bush, man up and earn your way on with a legitimate hit...however, talk to a position player, and the majority of them will say we're trying to win a ball game, and bunting is part of the game! Fun stuff......

Not sure about the "bushiness" of a bunt. The boy will typically throw up and in when a hitter squares to bunt. Against Verlander type velo. I think I'd rather take my chances taking a swing.

I know Aybars was a drag bunt. But your still kinda hangin it out over the plate to execute.

tpm and coach---this was bstill a close gaME AND I THINK THE HITTER WAS BUNTING TO GET ON BASE AND START A RALLY WHICH HE DID

Bunting IS part of the game....and ya can't score if your not on base. These guys are professionals paid enormous sums of money to do one thing...win. If the pitcher deserves a no-no then he has beaten his opponent, all aspects in that opponents' aresenal...that includes a bunt single....or sacrifice...or however it may be used. It is simply a tictic utilized to achieve a goal. If that pitchers good enough on that day....he takes care of the bunt too. IMHO...to be the best you have to win in all aspects, that means the opponent does everything in their power to beat you, if you win, you deserve the accolades. The other team laying down for you diminishes the effort.
J23

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
tpm and coach---this was bstill a close gaME AND I THINK THE HITTER WAS BUNTING TO GET ON BASE AND START A RALLY WHICH HE DID

These are opinions if you read Coach May's post he talks about intent, we really don't know the intent, but I will bet if it were a cleanly played game this would not have happened, if so, then teams would do it all of the time when the pitcher is on his way to a perfect game or a no no. I personally don't think the manager called for the bunt, he is too classy for that, he may have had the players take care of it themselves.

The game is absolutely about winning, but there is a lot more to it than that, it's about respect and that doesn't just go for the professional level.

In all the years I have seen my son play, I have never seen a bunt in that situation even if the pitcher is before 5 innings, HS, college or on teh pro level. And if it did happen, I would lose all respect for that manager or coach, regardless if it were son pitching or not.

You just don't do that in that situation, normally. The bottom line was Weaver wasn't gettin' one and they weren't letting Verlander have one either.

If that is what some here on the HS or travel level feel is right and would support that move in a game, and a manager or coach, my son would NEVER be on your team.

In all the years I have seen my son play, I have never seen a bunt in that situation even if the pitcher is before 5 innings, HS, college or on teh pro level. And if it did happen, I would lose all respect for that manager or coach, regardless if it were son pitching or not.
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The Angels are in a late season pennant race, the game was still easily in reach, this is not your normal situation. I am all for respecting the game, but the bottom line is that your team comes first. Like I said earlier, it depends on the situation at hand. Cannot bunt late in the game because opposing pitcher is flirting with a No No, is too general to apply to all situations.

quote:

Originally posted by standballdad:
In all the years I have seen my son play, I have never seen a bunt in that situation even if the pitcher is before 5 innings, HS, college or on teh pro level. And if it did happen, I would lose all respect for that manager or coach, regardless if it were son pitching or not.
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The Angels are in a late season pennant race, the game was still easily in reach, this is not your normal situation. I am all for respecting the game, but the bottom line is that your team comes first. Like I said earlier, it depends on the situation at hand. Cannot bunt late in the game because opposing pitcher is flirting with a No No, is too general to apply to all situations.

If it was within reach why not hit? Why not lean into the pitch and get hit, walks don't count in no hitters.

I saw it as a stick in your face attempt and yes I am a HUGE Verlander fan.

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If it was within reach why not hit? Why not lean into the pitch and get hit, walks don't count in no hitters.

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If it was within reach why not hit? Why not lean into the pitch and get hit, walks don't count in no hitters.

Because they were not having any success trying to hit off him. You need base runners to score. A walk or HBP would have been just effective, but that requires the pitcher to make those mistakes (really not a good argument), and yes I am an Angels fan.

And because Ayabar has successfully bunted for a hit 53 times, including 8 times this season.

quote:

You just don't do that in that situation, normally. The bottom line was Weaver wasn't gettin' one and they weren't letting Verlander have one either.

If I'm pitching, I don't want Albert Pujols to hit a home run off me either. And I'm going to do everything I can to prevent him from doing just that. Ayabar was doing everything in his power to prevent Verlander from having a no-hitter. That was a bunt. It's a perfectly legal play. NOT AGAINST THE RULES.

To me an "unwritten rule" is one that does not exist.

quote:

Originally posted by standballdad:

quote:

If it was within reach why not hit? Why not lean into the pitch and get hit, walks don't count in no hitters.

quote:

If it was within reach why not hit? Why not lean into the pitch and get hit, walks don't count in no hitters.

Because they were not having any success trying to hit off him. You need base runners to score. A walk or HBP would have been just effective, but that requires the pitcher to make those mistakes (really not a good argument), and yes I am an Angels fan.

Ah come on someone could have leaned into the pitch, but who wants to get shelled with a 100MPH FB.
CHICKEN!

You don't bunt to break up a no no but you CAN bunt to start a rally during a no no. I'm all about respecting the other team and being a gentleman. I won't steal up 10 and I won't be as aggressive on the bases up 10. But if a drag bunt can start a rally to get me back in the game then you better believe I'm going to do it. I'll respect the other team but I'm going to respect the game first and that means I'm going to compete when it's close.

quote:

Originally posted by bsbl247:
as I stood from my chair yelling at the TV..."that's right, take that!!"

This is funny.