no playing time

Kevin A posted:

Everyone has their own decisions to make.  I can tell you right now if the HS told my kid to ...lets say....move to Rt field and not be a catcher?  My son would politely decline and if it means leaving the team he would.    It is different if he was a catcher/pitcher and the coach saw him as one or the other, which seems to be the case here.  Coach saw him as a pitcher and the player saw himself as a catcher.  Maybe the other catchers were comparable and he needed a pitcher.  Compliments to the player for making the hard choice.  

So let me ask folks,  question was asked earlier, if a college coach asked your son to play another position, he would leave the program?

This is not directed to you, but an FYI, in reality coaches want team players not guys who are there for themselves.  Most players come to college and rarely play their HS position.

The coach asked the player to improve on his pitching as he obviously needed him in that position. It has nothing to do with the commitment or his summer team, but what can you do for the team now. He obviously doesnt need another catcher.   Players should do whatever they are asked for to do for the team.

Just sayin......

TPM posted:

Kevin A posted:

Everyone has their own decisions to make.  I can tell you right now if the HS told my kid to ...lets say....move to Rt field and not be a catcher?  My son would politely decline and if it means leaving the team he would.    It is different if he was a catcher/pitcher and the coach saw him as one or the other, which seems to be the case here.  Coach saw him as a pitcher and the player saw himself as a catcher.  Maybe the other catchers were comparable and he needed a pitcher.  Compliments to the player for making the hard choice.  

So let me ask folks,  question was asked earlier, if a college coach asked your son to play another position, he would leave the program?

This is not directed to you, but an FYI, in reality coaches want team players not guys who are there for themselves.  Most players come to college and rarely play their HS position.

The coach asked the player to improve on his pitching as he obviously needed him in that position. It has nothing to do with the commitment or his summer team, but what can you do for the team now. He obviously doesnt need another catcher.   Players should do whatever they are asked for to do for the team.

Just sayin......

 

Favorite quote from my son, according to coach. "Coach, if the best way for the team to win is for me to play left bench, I'll be the best left bench you've ever seen."

TPM-  Every player has to make their decision.  I have seen and know too many coaches that could not coach themselves out of a wet paper bag.   I am not letting a coach make that decision for my son.  A successful college coach is completely different than a HS coach.   I am sure my son would take it into consideration.    My son loves the game.  My son knows the difference between a half brain dead coach and a coach who has knowledge and experience.    Yes a player should do what he can for the team.  But I also there comes a time when a player has to protect his future as well.

Everyone has a different situation.  People here are looking for answers to a black and white situation.  That is impossible.  It is NEVER black and white.  Your situation is NEVER going to be the same as the person's posting.  Too many variables.

Suggesting a player should just blindly follow the team is not always the best advice....

I would agree if what the coach was asking him to do was harmful. But it seems to me if a coach asks a kid to work on a specific position for the good of the team and the kid chooses not to do that, then the coach is justified in saying he's not a team player. And neither the kid or the parents should be surprised if the coach chooses not to play him.

Iowamom23 posted:

I would agree if what the coach was asking him to do was harmful. But it seems to me if a coach asks a kid to work on a specific position for the good of the team and the kid chooses not to do that, then the coach is justified in saying he's not a team player. And neither the kid or the parents should be surprised if the coach chooses not to play him.

Agreed 100%. Seems that the coach has taken some heat here, declared the bad guy, because he asked the player to take pitching lessons and he didn't. 

It's the coaches/managers prerogative  to play or sit who he wishes whether that be in LL, HS, college, travel ball, milb or MLB.

TPM posted:

Iowamom23 posted:

I would agree if what the coach was asking him to do was harmful. But it seems to me if a coach asks a kid to work on a specific position for the good of the team and the kid chooses not to do that, then the coach is justified in saying he's not a team player. And neither the kid or the parents should be surprised if the coach chooses not to play him.

Agreed 100%. Seems that the coach has taken some heat here, declared the bad guy, because he asked the player to take pitching lessons and he didn't. 

It's the coaches/managers prerogative  to play or sit who he wishes whether that be in LL, HS, college, travel ball, milb or MLB.

Agree.  Plus how often do we hear that a kid is a sought after TB catcher but his position in high school is starting SS or something else?  HS has a very limited pool, if the man needed pitchers then that's what he needed.

CaCO3Girl posted:

TPM posted:

Iowamom23 posted:

I would agree if what the coach was asking him to do was harmful. But it seems to me if a coach asks a kid to work on a specific position for the good of the team and the kid chooses not to do that, then the coach is justified in saying he's not a team player. And neither the kid or the parents should be surprised if the coach chooses not to play him.

Agreed 100%. Seems that the coach has taken some heat here, declared the bad guy, because he asked the player to take pitching lessons and he didn't. 

It's the coaches/managers prerogative  to play or sit who he wishes whether that be in LL, HS, college, travel ball, milb or MLB.

Agree.  Plus how often do we hear that a kid is a sought after TB catcher but his position in high school is starting SS or something else?  HS has a very limited pool, if the man needed pitchers then that's what he needed.

Sorry — what is a "TB catcher"?

Iowamom23 posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

TPM posted:

Iowamom23 posted:

I would agree if what the coach was asking him to do was harmful. But it seems to me if a coach asks a kid to work on a specific position for the good of the team and the kid chooses not to do that, then the coach is justified in saying he's not a team player. And neither the kid or the parents should be surprised if the coach chooses not to play him.

Agreed 100%. Seems that the coach has taken some heat here, declared the bad guy, because he asked the player to take pitching lessons and he didn't. 

It's the coaches/managers prerogative  to play or sit who he wishes whether that be in LL, HS, college, travel ball, milb or MLB.

Agree.  Plus how often do we hear that a kid is a sought after TB catcher but his position in high school is starting SS or something else?  HS has a very limited pool, if the man needed pitchers then that's what he needed.

Sorry — what is a "TB catcher"?

 

Travel ball

Thank you!!

Don't have all the facts but sounds as if kid never said he didn't want to pitch.  Since he preferred catching. Family decided to spent their money on what made kid most happy. Did coach spend extra time working on pitching with kid hisself?  Why was there only one coach for a  HS team? I understand a coach playing a player where team most need, but not forcing him to take private lessons.

SONB12 posted:

Don't have all the facts but sounds as if kid never said he didn't want to pitch.  Since he preferred catching. Family decided to spent their money on what made kid most happy. Did coach spend extra time working on pitching with kid hisself?  Why was there only one coach for a  HS team? I understand a coach playing a player where team most need, but not forcing him to take private lessons.

Our team has two coaches and that's it. No specific hitting or pitching coach. Just two guys who do it all, including coach JV, and oversee sophomore and freshman coaches and handle all field maintenance.

My son has been a catcher, and a very good one. HIs freshman year the team had an excellent catcher who literally caught every game. Son's youth coach flat out said to him, you'll pitch varsity this year if you want, or you'll catch and play third on freshman team. What do you want to do? Son pitched, played and was named all conference as a sophomore. He still loves to catch and he does it from time to time because coach has seen his ability in that direction, but still sees him primarily as a pitcher and uses him that way.

My only point is if you're paying for private lessons, you can pay for what you want to do, or you can pay for what will get you on the playing field. If you pay for what you want to do, that's fine, but don't complain when it doesn't get you on the field.

Not sure what the big deal is. Player didnt want to pitch, plays for a good travel team and has a D1 committment. That in no way should mean that he should get more opportunity than someone else.

HS ball is what it is. All coaches see the experience differently. As a sophmore son was told he would be a pitcher only. As explained to him, he would play beyond HS, others would not. He was upset, but he managed to be the best team player he could, while being unhappy at the same time.

Thats about all you can do.

Golfman25 posted:

ironhorse posted:

Could be. Or the dad could be biased on what's really occurring. Since it's a random guy posting on the internet, no one can really say for sure.

But I'll say this, even if your coach didn't "like" you, if you were averaging a quadruple double on  JV, the hardest working kid at practice and a selfless teammate, it were be the very extreme case that you would stay on JV because of the coach's bias. 

Absolutely without question, untrue.  Some coaches just "out think" themselves.  They would justify their decision based on "it's only JV competition." 

The idea that all this "work hard, great teammate, perform when you get a chance, etc." will make a difference is nonsense.  Some coaches could care less.  They pick their dogs and run with them.   Nothing a player can do will make a difference.  There is nothing worse than working hard, being a good teammate, and performing, thinking there is a chance you'll crack the line up when the fact is you won't under any circumstances.  The key is to figure out early on what kind of coach you have.  Then you can work from there.

 

I have to agree with Golfman25 100%.  Coaches have their favorites and most times once they have made their mind up there is nothing a player can do.  This is happening to my son, his senior season,  was told by all of the coaches at the beginning of the season he is one of the most athletic kids on the team, will definately make an impact and they will get him in the game.  Needless to say since mid April he has barely played,  when they put him in he did well, no errors and got the job done.  Other kids just started hitting better than him but instead of helping him, now he sits.   Now in playoffs ...my heart is breaking for him.  NOT because he is not playing but because he was lied to...and the coaches were upfront in the beginning of the season and told players lines of communication will always be open yet no communication from the coaches.  These are not men, they a mice.  One thing my son is learning is how not to treat people and that communication is important.  AND he has learned to watch the kids playing and "could' tell them exactly what they are doing wrong while pitching, hitting, etc....would NEVER say anything but it is interesting that he has become a "student" of the game.  Maybe someday he will be a good coach, who knows.  Afterall just because someone played in college or professionally does not make them a good coach.    Anyway - best wishes to all of the Seniors and the kids who are going to play in college. 

RKBH posted:

Golfman25 posted:

The idea that all this "work hard, great teammate, perform when you get a chance, etc." will make a difference is nonsense.  Some coaches could care less.  They pick their dogs and run with them.   Nothing a player can do will make a difference.  There is nothing worse than working hard, being a good teammate, and performing, thinking there is a chance you'll crack the line up when the fact is you won't under any circumstances.  The key is to figure out early on what kind of coach you have.  Then you can work from there.

 

I have to agree with Golfman25 100%.  Coaches have their favorites and most times once they have made their mind up there is nothing a player can do.  This is happening to my son, his senior season,  was told by all of the coaches at the beginning of the season he is one of the most athletic kids on the team, will definately make an impact and they will get him in the game.  Needless to say since mid April he has barely played,  when they put him in he did well, no errors and got the job done.  Other kids just started hitting better than him but instead of helping him, now he sits.   Now in playoffs ...my heart is breaking for him.  NOT because he is not playing but because he was lied to...and the coaches were upfront in the beginning of the season and told players lines of communication will always be open yet no communication from the coaches.  These are not men, they a mice.  One thing my son is learning is how not to treat people and that communication is important.  AND he has learned to watch the kids playing and "could' tell them exactly what they are doing wrong while pitching, hitting, etc....would NEVER say anything but it is interesting that he has become a "student" of the game.  Maybe someday he will be a good coach, who knows.  Afterall just because someone played in college or professionally does not make them a good coach.    Anyway - best wishes to all of the Seniors and the kids who are going to play in college. 

RKBH, not trying to be insensitive and sorry your son is not having a good senior baseball season.  But I am confused by your post.  First, Golfman has consistently made it clear that he has had bad experience with HS baseball and his posts usually reflect that... I understand that.  But you state that your son was told he would make an impact and they will get him in the game.  They did put him in (as they said they would), he played well but other kids started hitting better.  What did you expect would happen if there are other kids hitting better?  You then said "instead of helping him, now he sits".  Well, don't they practice most days?  The coaches are supposed to help ALL players, right?.  They practice every day, right?  Are they supposed to help him more than the other players so he can start ahead of them again?

You said he was lied to and you implied, I believe, that it was about the coaches saying that lines of communication will always be open, yet no communication from the coaches.  Well, if other kids are hitting better and you know it, certainly your son knows it.  What additional communication is necessary in this scenario? 

Sorry, I'm sure there is more to the story... I just wasn't getting it.

RKBH

Coaches don't play favorites. They can't afford to.

Coaches DO play their best 9, those players that hit, steal, score runs & add K's.  It is a competition & the Coach that puts up Wins, by utilizing his best players, keeps his job. 

Being a "student of the game" would include more batting practice, even if it's on his own. He's got to out perform those that out performed him. 

JMO

baseballmom posted:

RKBH

Coaches don't play favorites. They can't afford to.

Coaches DO play their best 9, those players that hit, steal, score runs & add K's.  It is a competition & the Coach that puts up Wins, by utilizing his best players, keeps his job. 

Being a "student of the game" would include more batting practice, even if it's on his own. He's got to out perform those that out performed him. 

JMO

I think this is probably true in college, but not as much so in HS...while the coaches job is to WIN in HS as well, they have more flexibility to play jimmy over johnny for one reason or another...and its not always because jimmy will help them put a W in the winning column.

phillyinNJ posted:

baseballmom posted:

RKBH

Coaches don't play favorites. They can't afford to.

Coaches DO play their best 9, those players that hit, steal, score runs & add K's.  It is a competition & the Coach that puts up Wins, by utilizing his best players, keeps his job. 

Being a "student of the game" would include more batting practice, even if it's on his own. He's got to out perform those that out performed him. 

JMO

I think this is probably true in college, but not as much so in HS...while the coaches job is to WIN in HS as well, they have more flexibility to play jimmy over johnny for one reason or another...and its not always because jimmy will help them put a W in the winning column.

Agree 100%

One of the biggest reasons player A plays over player B in my kids high school is who is in the older grade.  They are expected to get to varsity first and seniority plays a factor. The only exception is the super stud freshman...but those are rare.

cabbagedad posted:

RKBH posted:

Golfman25 posted:

The idea that all this "work hard, great teammate, perform when you get a chance, etc." will make a difference is nonsense.  Some coaches could care less.  They pick their dogs and run with them.   Nothing a player can do will make a difference.  There is nothing worse than working hard, being a good teammate, and performing, thinking there is a chance you'll crack the line up when the fact is you won't under any circumstances.  The key is to figure out early on what kind of coach you have.  Then you can work from there.

 

I have to agree with Golfman25 100%.  Coaches have their favorites and most times once they have made their mind up there is nothing a player can do.  This is happening to my son, his senior season,  was told by all of the coaches at the beginning of the season he is one of the most athletic kids on the team, will definately make an impact and they will get him in the game.  Needless to say since mid April he has barely played,  when they put him in he did well, no errors and got the job done.  Other kids just started hitting better than him but instead of helping him, now he sits.   Now in playoffs ...my heart is breaking for him.  NOT because he is not playing but because he was lied to...and the coaches were upfront in the beginning of the season and told players lines of communication will always be open yet no communication from the coaches.  These are not men, they a mice.  One thing my son is learning is how not to treat people and that communication is important.  AND he has learned to watch the kids playing and "could' tell them exactly what they are doing wrong while pitching, hitting, etc....would NEVER say anything but it is interesting that he has become a "student" of the game.  Maybe someday he will be a good coach, who knows.  Afterall just because someone played in college or professionally does not make them a good coach.    Anyway - best wishes to all of the Seniors and the kids who are going to play in college. 

RKBH, not trying to be insensitive and sorry your son is not having a good senior baseball season.  But I am confused by your post.  First, Golfman has consistently made it clear that he has had bad experience with HS baseball and his posts usually reflect that... I understand that.  But you state that your son was told he would make an impact and they will get him in the game.  They did put him in (as they said they would), he played well but other kids started hitting better.  What did you expect would happen if there are other kids hitting better?  You then said "instead of helping him, now he sits".  Well, don't they practice most days?  The coaches are supposed to help ALL players, right?.  They practice every day, right?  Are they supposed to help him more than the other players so he can start ahead of them again?

You said he was lied to and you implied, I believe, that it was about the coaches saying that lines of communication will always be open, yet no communication from the coaches.  Well, if other kids are hitting better and you know it, certainly your son knows it.  What additional communication is necessary in this scenario? 

Sorry, I'm sure there is more to the story... I just wasn't getting it.

Yes, you are correct.  They do practice every day and my son works very hard.   I sat with a person who knows baseball very well, he was watching the last game with me.  There are 2 boys who kept hitting fly balls to the outfield and of course they were caught.  This person knew exactly what these kids were doing wrong.  The coaches have let this go on all season without trying to help them.   There is more to this story and it is way too long to post.  My point was just to say that my son is sticking with it, not quiting and is still trying his best and  learning from this experience.

baseballmom posted:

RKBH

Coaches don't play favorites. They can't afford to.

Coaches DO play their best 9, those players that hit, steal, score runs & add K's.  It is a competition & the Coach that puts up Wins, by utilizing his best players, keeps his job. 

Being a "student of the game" would include more batting practice, even if it's on his own. He's got to out perform those that out performed him. 

JMO

Thanks for the reply.  He is practicing more, etc etc...we are in playoffs now and the top 8 are all set with 3 rotating pitchers.  The 11 extra kids sit with some substitutions in the outfied toward the end of the game.  With the starters having fits when they are taken out.  Too much to write about but I am sure this team is not the only team in the country with these issues.  I enjoy this site and I just wanted to share our experience.  Thanks again.

phillyinNJ posted:

baseballmom posted:

RKBH

Coaches don't play favorites. They can't afford to.

Coaches DO play their best 9, those players that hit, steal, score runs & add K's.  It is a competition & the Coach that puts up Wins, by utilizing his best players, keeps his job. 

Being a "student of the game" would include more batting practice, even if it's on his own. He's got to out perform those that out performed him. 

JMO

I think this is probably true in college, but not as much so in HS...while the coaches job is to WIN in HS as well, they have more flexibility to play jimmy over johnny for one reason or another...and its not always because jimmy will help them put a W in the winning column.

There are so many factors tied into high school baseball.  I have said this before and I will say it again, it is not for the faint of heart!!!    Thanks for the post/reply.  I love this site and will keep reading it from time to time.  Looking forward to the CWS - love to watch the kids play. 

phillyinNJ posted:

baseballmom posted:

RKBH

Coaches don't play favorites. They can't afford to.

Coaches DO play their best 9, those players that hit, steal, score runs & add K's.  It is a competition & the Coach that puts up Wins, by utilizing his best players, keeps his job. 

Being a "student of the game" would include more batting practice, even if it's on his own. He's got to out perform those that out performed him. 

JMO

I think this is probably true in college, but not as much so in HS...while the coaches job is to WIN in HS as well, they have more flexibility to play jimmy over johnny for one reason or another...and its not always because jimmy will help them put a W in the winning column.

Some HS coaches definitely do play favorites.  But most who do are unaware of doing so.  They tend to tell themselves comforting self-deceptive stories -- just like everybody else.

Baseball is not  like my sport, wrestling.  You think you can  beat the  guy ahead of you on the depth chart in Wrestling?  Well, you challenge him to a wrestle off.   Winner starts.  Period.    Who gets the call is settled on the mat - mano-a-mano.  No ifs ands or buts.  No possibility of coach playing favorites.   

Unfortunately, there is no  equivalent of the wrestle-off  in baseball.  Especially  not in HS, where you get, what 30 games or so and 100 AB's or so to show your stuff?  

 Coaches like to say that the players write the line-up.  For the most part that may be true -- since some guys obviously have more talent and drive than other guys.  But shortness of the HS season does tend to put a premium on coaches' gut instinct and less of a premium on objective evidence.   In professional baseball you get so much more data on what players can and can't do.  In HS,  you get only a teeny-tiny bit of data in comparison.  

So if you are initially named a bench guy in HS baseball, it's a kiss of death, almost impossible to overcome.  You can go weeks without an AB.  And then when you do get your chance it's like do or die.  On the other hand if you are initially named a starter,  coach is going to give you a much longer hook.    That's just human nature. Built in confirmation bias and  built in endowment effects.  

 I repeat an extreme example.  A  kid on my son's HS team was first team all league sophomore year.  Everybody thought he was headed for something special.  But he literally sucked both junior and senior years  -- though he did have brief hot streaks each year.  But he was untouchable.  Coach trusted him, kept thinking the kid would find it and return to his sophomore year form.  Never happened.  The kid once struck out like 24 times in 30 AB's and hit under .200 for a huge stretch of the season.  But he started every single  game.  Never even got moved from the 3 hole in the line-up.  The  coach was "convinced," on the basis of no evidence,   that the kid was his best option.  

Guys behind the  kid busted their butts trying to take the kids spot -- cause they could see that he wasn't bringing it.  But the coach just kept trusting his gut.    Two years later, some of my sons former teammates still talk about that - they were doing so just the other day at our house.  

Found out, from that same conversation,  that the former assistant coach  (great guy, great coach, coached my son in travel during his last two years in HS)  saw what was happening  and actually refused to come back this past year, and signed up to help at our bitter rival school,  of all things,   partly because the head coach at my son's school was so headstrong and just would not listen to his staff about who deserved more playing time and who deserved less. 

RKBH,

My son sat in HS as a pitcher only his sophomore and junior year and he was the best hitter and pitcher on the team. His philiosophy was that my son would play past HS, most of these players wouldnt, he was 100% correct about that. It was tough, but high school baseball sometimes is what it is.  

Make sure that he is playing this summer. If he is as good as you state, he will play everyday. Focus now is what can be, not what could have been.

SluggerDad posted:

phillyinNJ posted:

baseballmom posted:

RKBH

Coaches don't play favorites. They can't afford to.

Coaches DO play their best 9, those players that hit, steal, score runs & add K's.  It is a competition & the Coach that puts up Wins, by utilizing his best players, keeps his job. 

Being a "student of the game" would include more batting practice, even if it's on his own. He's got to out perform those that out performed him. 

JMO

I think this is probably true in college, but not as much so in HS...while the coaches job is to WIN in HS as well, they have more flexibility to play jimmy over johnny for one reason or another...and its not always because jimmy will help them put a W in the winning column.

Some HS coaches definitely do play favorites.  But most who do are unaware of doing so.  They tend to tell themselves comforting self-deceptive stories -- just like everybody else.

Baseball is not  like my sport, wrestling.  You think you can  beat the  guy ahead of you on the depth chart in Wrestling?  Well, you challenge him to a wrestle off.   Winner starts.  Period.    Who gets the call is settled on the mat - mano-a-mano.  No ifs ands or buts.  No possibility of coach playing favorites.   

Unfortunately, there is no  equivalent of the wrestle-off  in baseball.  Especially  not in HS, where you get, what 30 games or so and 100 AB's or so to show your stuff?  

 Coaches like to say that the players write the line-up.  For the most part that may be true -- since some guys obviously have more talent and drive than other guys.  But shortness of the HS season does tend to put a premium on coaches' gut instinct and less of a premium on objective evidence.   In professional baseball you get so much more data on what players can and can't do.  In HS,  you get only a teeny-tiny bit of data in comparison.  

So if you are initially named a bench guy in HS baseball, it's a kiss of death, almost impossible to overcome.  You can go weeks without an AB.  And then when you do get your chance it's like do or die.  On the other hand if you are initially named a starter,  coach is going to give you a much longer hook.    That's just human nature. Built in confirmation bias and  built in endowment effects.  

 I repeat an extreme example.  A  kid on my son's HS team was first team all league sophomore year.  Everybody thought he was headed for something special.  But he literally sucked both junior and senior years  -- though he did have brief hot streaks each year.  But he was untouchable.  Coach trusted him, kept thinking the kid would find it and return to his sophomore year form.  Never happened.  The kid once struck out like 24 times in 30 AB's and hit under .200 for a huge stretch of the season.  But he started every single  game.  Never even got moved from the 3 hole in the line-up.  The  coach was "convinced," on the basis of no evidence,   that the kid was his best option.  

Guys behind the  kid busted their butts trying to take the kids spot -- cause they could see that he wasn't bringing it.  But the coach just kept trusting his gut.    Two years later, some of my sons former teammates still talk about that - they were doing so just the other day at our house.  

Found out, from that same conversation,  that the former assistant coach  (great guy, great coach, coached my son in travel during his last two years in HS)  saw what was happening  and actually refused to come back this past year, and signed up to help at our bitter rival school,  of all things,   partly because the head coach at my son's school was so headstrong and just would not listen to his staff about who deserved more playing time and who deserved less. 

Thanks for the story.  You get it....appreciate it.  Again - there is more to my story.  In fact my son said there are things going on that he does not want to tell me because he knows I will be very upset...I think it has to do with drugs and alcohol...THIS Is the reason my son only associates with 3 other players...(all starters by the way) they are good kids and do not do drugs/alcohol.  Very sad situation but as long as my son is a good kid and knows better that is all I want.  UGH -this week and maybe next week and summer ball will be here!!!!

TPM posted:

RKBH,

My son sat in HS as a pitcher only his sophomore and junior year and he was the best hitter and pitcher on the team. His philiosophy was that my son would play past HS, most of these players wouldnt, he was 100% correct about that. It was tough, but high school baseball sometimes is what it is.  

Make sure that he is playing this summer. If he is as good as you state, he will play everyday. Focus now is what can be, not what could have been.

He is playing this summer - Legion ball...he is looking forward to it.  He will pitch, play the infield and the outfield.  Should be a good summer of baseball before college begins. As long as he enjoys himself and has fun with his friends, that is all we want.

phillyinNJ posted:

baseballmom posted:

RKBH

Coaches don't play favorites. They can't afford to.

Coaches DO play their best 9, those players that hit, steal, score runs & add K's.  It is a competition & the Coach that puts up Wins, by utilizing his best players, keeps his job. 

Being a "student of the game" would include more batting practice, even if it's on his own. He's got to out perform those that out performed him. 

JMO

I think this is probably true in college, but not as much so in HS...while the coaches job is to WIN in HS as well, they have more flexibility to play jimmy over johnny for one reason or another...and its not always because jimmy will help them put a W in the winning column.

There simply not the real pressure to win or get fired at most high schools. Our area is just finishing up and to date nobody's been fired.  A few are retiring, some taking other jobs, and some stepping away because they have young kids.  The reality is that there isn't a long line to be a HS baseball coach. So they tend to stick around.  

Golfman25 posted:

phillyinNJ posted:

baseballmom posted:

RKBH

Coaches don't play favorites. They can't afford to.

Coaches DO play their best 9, those players that hit, steal, score runs & add K's.  It is a competition & the Coach that puts up Wins, by utilizing his best players, keeps his job. 

Being a "student of the game" would include more batting practice, even if it's on his own. He's got to out perform those that out performed him. 

JMO

I think this is probably true in college, but not as much so in HS...while the coaches job is to WIN in HS as well, they have more flexibility to play jimmy over johnny for one reason or another...and its not always because jimmy will help them put a W in the winning column.

There simply not the real pressure to win or get fired at most high schools. Our area is just finishing up and to date nobody's been fired.  A few are retiring, some taking other jobs, and some stepping away because they have young kids.  The reality is that there isn't a long line to be a HS baseball coach. So they tend to stick around.  

Well, I wouldn't say there's no pressure in HS.   It's  not driven as much by wins and losses as by PARENTS, (and players)  especially around here.   Rival HS has been through like 4 coaches in five years.  Largely driven by player and parent REVOLTS  (and admittedly some malfeasance on the part of coaches.  I mean one guy got fired cause he mixed pain killers and alcohol at a three martini lunch, showed up a game looped out of his mind).  But the parents in these parts are no walk in the park.  Silicon Valley bigwigs used to getting their ways and throwing their weight around.  They can cause lots of headaches.  Takes a strong AD to stand up to that sort of thing.   

No excuses.

It's poison if a player starts to believe the reason he is not playing is anything other than himself. Bad/dumb/evil/blind coach, seniority, politics, just name the excuse.  If a player starts to believe his fate is not in his control, it's over.

I'm not saying "unfairness" doesn't exist.

Go44dad posted:

No excuses.

It's poison if a player starts to believe the reason he is not playing is anything other than himself. Bad/dumb/evil/blind coach, seniority, politics, just name the excuse.  If a player starts to believe his fate is not in his control, it's over.

I'm not saying "unfairness" doesn't exist.

You are correct.  But to be upfront there are THREE sides to every story -  yours, mine and theirs.  I will leave it at that.  Thanks for your input.

baseballmom posted:

RKBH

Coaches don't play favorites. They can't afford to.

Coaches DO play their best 9, those players that hit, steal, score runs & add K's.  It is a competition & the Coach that puts up Wins, by utilizing his best players, keeps his job. 

Being a "student of the game" would include more batting practice, even if it's on his own. He's got to out perform those that out performed him. 

JMO

Maybe in areas where coaches are held accountable for wins, and their job is on the line, they play their best nine. 

However there are many areas where being a varsity coach is similar to being a Supreme Court justice.  These guys have no accountability, and as long as they don't cause issues for the AD or the school, they can have the job as long as they want it.  In these places, coaches play their "guys", and their guys aren't always the best nine on the team.

We went into the whole HS baseball thing thinking exactly what you said and were quickly greeted with reality.  Fortunately, my son was able to navigate that and have a very good HS career...but several kids didn't (and they deserved to).

Buzzard05 posted:

baseballmom posted:

RKBH

Coaches don't play favorites. They can't afford to.

Coaches DO play their best 9, those players that hit, steal, score runs & add K's.  It is a competition & the Coach that puts up Wins, by utilizing his best players, keeps his job. 

Being a "student of the game" would include more batting practice, even if it's on his own. He's got to out perform those that out performed him. 

JMO

Maybe in areas where coaches are held accountable for wins, and their job is on the line, they play their best nine. 

However there are many areas where being a varsity coach is similar to being a Supreme Court justice.  These guys have no accountability, and as long as they don't cause issues for the AD or the school, they can have the job as long as they want it.  In these places, coaches play their "guys", and their guys aren't always the best nine on the team.

We went into the whole HS baseball thing thinking exactly what you said and were quickly greeted with reality.  Fortunately, my son was able to navigate that and have a very good HS career...but several kids didn't (and they deserved to).

I have lived this for the last 3 years, I am most thankful my son wasn't directly affected. I am most disappointed that even though the last 2 years have been fairly solid for the team but we were a shadow of what we could have been.

It is a shame because results didn't matter, performances didn't matter and dedication to the team didn't matter...who you know certainly was important. Keep in mind this is only my perspective but I don't even care for the kids who got short changed...they just could have helped us win more.

Our high school was "produce or sit." My son was benched for two games soph year before he started to hit and made all conference. Yet I still heard all the excuses and accusations from the parents whose kids sat about how their kid didn't get a fair shot.

My favorite was the dad whose kid started opening day soph year in the outfield. The kid went 0-8 with seven whiffs while making three errors in the outfield. One cost the team the game. Another player replaced him after game four and never stopped hitting.

It happened again the kid's junior year. Halfway through his junior year the kid quit. The father convinced him he never got a fair shot. About 0-16 with 14 whiffs and a bunch of errors. 16 at bats is stats in small numbers. But 14 whiffs is a noticeable trend. The father contonued to come to games just to bad mouth the coach.

What better shot could a kid get than starting the first four games of the season? I thought the coach had the kid's potential overrated. I never would have started him. But the kid got his shot.

High School Baseball is by its very nature a small sample of stats, but you still have to produce when given the opportunity.  Considering that a vast majority of high school pitchers will never play college at any level, let alone pro ball, it really should not be that difficult to at least have productive quality at bats vs high school pitching.  

Hi all, first its been a while since I posted.  I had a superstition that if I posted on here during the season he would have a bad game.  It goes back a while.  Anyway, he finished up his HS career last week and I will be posting about that soon, but on this subject...

Its really tough when your kid is benched.  You look for any reason you can to justify his benching.  This includes blaming politics, others, the coaches, etc.  The fact of the matter is HS ball is a tricky thing to play and decipher.  You will go nuts looking for reasons and excuses.  In the end it is what it is.  The best advice I have ever received on here is control what you can control, and don't let the other stuff distract you.

Nothing like a good coach bashing thread.  Haven't seen one in a while.  One thing I've learned in my over 20 years of coaching high school and last 5 as AD is that the ones who spout off about politics are typically the parents of the kids on the bench.  I have never witnessed a starter say anything about politics.

Now before too many people get worked up I readily admit there are some clowns out there who do not need to be coaching.  My best friends son's HS team got beat in playoffs last night.  Had a 5-1 lead in the top of the 7th, whole game used 4 total pitchers, used a kid who has 11 innings this year as a Freshman and out of the 4 none were his best pitcher.  Then after the game he tells the guys he did everything he could to win the game.  Sadly, these guys exist and I have no clue if this is the rule or the exception. Nobody on here does.  What's frustrating is you let your situation dictate that it's that way for everyone especially if it's slanted.  If you have a great HS coach then enjoy it and get the most out of it.  If you have an average HS coach then enjoy it and get the most out of it.  If you have a bad HS coach then try to find something enjoyable out of it and get the most out of it.  Do you see a theme building?  No matter what situation you are in it's up to you to make the best of it although it's a LOT easier when you have good coaching.  If all you do is complain and play the victim then guess what?  The world is out to get you and there's nothing you can do about it.  

I"m not calling anyone in particular out but I've been on the receiving end of the vicious parents who were wrong.  I had to change the culture of that school from a toxic and parent controlled environment so I was raked through the coals.  I left there as the most successful coach in that school's history but in some of their eyes I was an idiot who held the team back.  I absolutely made mistakes but I believe I did more good than bad.  Relax and enjoy the ride because there is a LOT more to baseball than just high school ball.  I love HS ball and I will defense HS coaches in cases where I think they are right but it's not the end of the world if you sit the bench in HS.  Glass half empty - you're getting screwed and the coach is stupid.  Glass half full - you have an opportunity to work through adversity, develop into a good team mate and increase your work ethic if you want to try and play.

On paper is seems simple.

I like the theme. Enjoy what you can as best as you can and control what you can.

While all of the above is true, it is a hell of a lot easier to do when your son is a starter and you are mostly wringing hands fruitlessly over the batting order, how come the pitcher was not pulled sooner, why the normally rock-solid 1B man booted two in a tight game. Etc.

I've seen kids walk away from HS baseball after a particularly frustrating season and even mid-season. How many of those decisions are truly solely made or influenced by the player, versus the disappointed parent projecting on his or her son not getting treated fairly?

coach2709 posted:

Nothing like a good coach bashing thread.  Haven't seen one in a while.  One thing I've learned in my over 20 years of coaching high school and last 5 as AD is that the ones who spout off about politics are typically the parents of the kids on the bench.  I have never witnessed a starter say anything about politics.

Now before too many people get worked up I readily admit there are some clowns out there who do not need to be coaching.  My best friends son's HS team got beat in playoffs last night.  Had a 5-1 lead in the top of the 7th, whole game used 4 total pitchers, used a kid who has 11 innings this year as a Freshman and out of the 4 none were his best pitcher.  Then after the game he tells the guys he did everything he could to win the game.  Sadly, these guys exist and I have no clue if this is the rule or the exception. Nobody on here does.  What's frustrating is you let your situation dictate that it's that way for everyone especially if it's slanted.  If you have a great HS coach then enjoy it and get the most out of it.  If you have an average HS coach then enjoy it and get the most out of it.  If you have a bad HS coach then try to find something enjoyable out of it and get the most out of it.  Do you see a theme building?  No matter what situation you are in it's up to you to make the best of it although it's a LOT easier when you have good coaching.  If all you do is complain and play the victim then guess what?  The world is out to get you and there's nothing you can do about it.  

I"m not calling anyone in particular out but I've been on the receiving end of the vicious parents who were wrong.  I had to change the culture of that school from a toxic and parent controlled environment so I was raked through the coals.  I left there as the most successful coach in that school's history but in some of their eyes I was an idiot who held the team back.  I absolutely made mistakes but I believe I did more good than bad.  Relax and enjoy the ride because there is a LOT more to baseball than just high school ball.  I love HS ball and I will defense HS coaches in cases where I think they are right but it's not the end of the world if you sit the bench in HS.  Glass half empty - you're getting screwed and the coach is stupid.  Glass half full - you have an opportunity to work through adversity, develop into a good team mate and increase your work ethic if you want to try and play.

On paper is seems simple.

My son's high school coach had his good points and bad points. All it took to hear the bad points was ask the parents of cut players, parents of players on the bench and parents of players believed to be playing the wrong position. 

I preferred to see the positives. Occasionally I would ask some of these parents how they can criticize a coach who took over a program with seventeen losing seasons in twenty years and bring them in second ** followed by two conference titles starting with his third season. 

It was easy for these parents to criticize. Their kids weren't playing or starring. Winning was secondary to them. They would have been happier if their kids were the focal point and the team was still going 6-16.

They couldn't see the organization, discipline, skills instruction and fundraising he brought to the program. All they could see was his inability to judge talent (not true) and his less than stellar in game coaching (true).

** in first until a car accident shelved two pitchers for the remainder of the season

coach2709 posted:

Nothing like a good coach bashing thread.  Haven't seen one in a while.  One thing I've learned in my over 20 years of coaching high school and last 5 as AD is that the ones who spout off about politics are typically the parents of the kids on the bench.  I have never witnessed a starter say anything about politics.

Now before too many people get worked up I readily admit there are some clowns out there who do not need to be coaching.  My best friends son's HS team got beat in playoffs last night.  Had a 5-1 lead in the top of the 7th, whole game used 4 total pitchers, used a kid who has 11 innings this year as a Freshman and out of the 4 none were his best pitcher.  Then after the game he tells the guys he did everything he could to win the game.  Sadly, these guys exist and I have no clue if this is the rule or the exception. Nobody on here does.  What's frustrating is you let your situation dictate that it's that way for everyone especially if it's slanted.  If you have a great HS coach then enjoy it and get the most out of it.  If you have an average HS coach then enjoy it and get the most out of it.  If you have a bad HS coach then try to find something enjoyable out of it and get the most out of it.  Do you see a theme building?  No matter what situation you are in it's up to you to make the best of it although it's a LOT easier when you have good coaching.  If all you do is complain and play the victim then guess what?  The world is out to get you and there's nothing you can do about it.  

I"m not calling anyone in particular out but I've been on the receiving end of the vicious parents who were wrong.  I had to change the culture of that school from a toxic and parent controlled environment so I was raked through the coals.  I left there as the most successful coach in that school's history but in some of their eyes I was an idiot who held the team back.  I absolutely made mistakes but I believe I did more good than bad.  Relax and enjoy the ride because there is a LOT more to baseball than just high school ball.  I love HS ball and I will defense HS coaches in cases where I think they are right but it's not the end of the world if you sit the bench in HS.  Glass half empty - you're getting screwed and the coach is stupid.  Glass half full - you have an opportunity to work through adversity, develop into a good team mate and increase your work ethic if you want to try and play.

On paper is seems simple.

What I did not get into in my above post about controlling what you can control is my kid getting benched this year.  It was for 3 games and it seemed like an eternity.  We could have blamed the coach, we could have blamed politics, but in reality he was not hitting well.  He wasn't the only one (the majority of the team was batting under .200 at that time), but he was the one the coach choose to bench.  Went from a .395 BA at the end of last year to hitting .190 after the first 4 games of this years season.   I just went back and looked and he actually played in those 3 games, just didn't start.  He took every advantage given to him when he was put into those games and worked his way back into the lineup.  Finished up the season batting around .320 and garnered an All Conference honor.  If  he would have allowed himself to be distracted by the "politics" argument he would not have worked himself back into the lineup.

RJM posted:

Our high school was "produce or sit." My son was benched for two games soph year before he started to hit and made all conference. Yet I still heard all the excuses and accusations from the parents whose kids sat about how their kid didn't get a fair shot.

My favorite was the dad whose kid started opening day soph year in the outfield. The kid went 0-8 with seven whiffs while making three errors in the outfield. One cost the team the game. Another player replaced him after game four and never stopped hitting.

It happened again the kid's junior year. Halfway through his junior year the kid quit. The father convinced him he never got a fair shot. About 0-16 with 14 whiffs and a bunch of errors. 16 at bats is stats in small numbers. But 14 whiffs is a noticeable trend. The father contonued to come to games just to bad mouth the coach.

What better shot could a kid get than starting the first four games of the season? I thought the coach had the kid's potential overrated. I never would have started him. But the kid got his shot.

Obviously that kid transferred and played MI for us.   

I have no problem with a tough sob coach benching a kid.  The best make it know that you're only renting the position.  For the starters, there a backup nipping at your heals so you better get your job done.  For the backups, the starters are only there to be beaten out so get after it.  Where I have issues is when the starters are the starters and everyone else may as well not even show up.  We had 4 starters hitting .200 or below.  Yet they continued to play and play, every game.  2 struck out 35% and 45% of the time.  While demonstratively better players sat; some sat so much I began to question if they where even on the roster.  So it's no wonder you end up sub .500 and an early exit out of the playoffs by giving up a 5 run lead. 

The point is not to bash coaches.  It is to point out that some the "givens" we talk about on sites like these aren't necessarily true.  So when I hear, coaches want to win and thus they'll play the best players I'm thinking all right, this is going to be awesome, no more daddy ball, etc.  Then when I see the opposite unfold before my eyes you begin to question if the earth is even round.     

joes87 posted:

coach2709 posted:

Nothing like a good coach bashing thread.  Haven't seen one in a while.  One thing I've learned in my over 20 years of coaching high school and last 5 as AD is that the ones who spout off about politics are typically the parents of the kids on the bench.  I have never witnessed a starter say anything about politics.

Now before too many people get worked up I readily admit there are some clowns out there who do not need to be coaching.  My best friends son's HS team got beat in playoffs last night.  Had a 5-1 lead in the top of the 7th, whole game used 4 total pitchers, used a kid who has 11 innings this year as a Freshman and out of the 4 none were his best pitcher.  Then after the game he tells the guys he did everything he could to win the game.  Sadly, these guys exist and I have no clue if this is the rule or the exception. Nobody on here does.  What's frustrating is you let your situation dictate that it's that way for everyone especially if it's slanted.  If you have a great HS coach then enjoy it and get the most out of it.  If you have an average HS coach then enjoy it and get the most out of it.  If you have a bad HS coach then try to find something enjoyable out of it and get the most out of it.  Do you see a theme building?  No matter what situation you are in it's up to you to make the best of it although it's a LOT easier when you have good coaching.  If all you do is complain and play the victim then guess what?  The world is out to get you and there's nothing you can do about it.  

I"m not calling anyone in particular out but I've been on the receiving end of the vicious parents who were wrong.  I had to change the culture of that school from a toxic and parent controlled environment so I was raked through the coals.  I left there as the most successful coach in that school's history but in some of their eyes I was an idiot who held the team back.  I absolutely made mistakes but I believe I did more good than bad.  Relax and enjoy the ride because there is a LOT more to baseball than just high school ball.  I love HS ball and I will defense HS coaches in cases where I think they are right but it's not the end of the world if you sit the bench in HS.  Glass half empty - you're getting screwed and the coach is stupid.  Glass half full - you have an opportunity to work through adversity, develop into a good team mate and increase your work ethic if you want to try and play.

On paper is seems simple.

What I did not get into in my above post about controlling what you can control is my kid getting benched this year.  It was for 3 games and it seemed like an eternity.  We could have blamed the coach, we could have blamed politics, but in reality he was not hitting well.  He wasn't the only one (the majority of the team was batting under .200 at that time), but he was the one the coach choose to bench.  Went from a .395 BA at the end of last year to hitting .190 after the first 4 games of this years season.   I just went back and looked and he actually played in those 3 games, just didn't start.  He took every advantage given to him when he was put into those games and worked his way back into the lineup.  Finished up the season batting around .320 and garnered an All Conference honor.  If  he would have allowed himself to be distracted by the "politics" argument he would not have worked himself back into the lineup.

Hitting  .190 after 3 or 4 games is NOTHING.  Not a sign of ANYTHING in particular.    That is a TINY sample size that is statistically INSIGNIFICANT.   Suppose you have 10 AB's in say 4 7 inning games and you have only 2 hits.  You are batting .200.  One more game, you go 2 for 3.  Suddenly you have a whopping 4 hits in 13 AB's.  Now you are hitting a whopping .308. 

Any coach that benches a kid because of what happens in 3 or 4 games is basically an IDIOT.  (unless he can definitely see that the results are due to basic flaws in the swing or a terrible approach)  

 Part of the problem is that with HS almost the entire season is just a small sample which contains precious little statistically valid information.    But for bench guys, who only get sporadic chances,  the tyranny of small sample size is greatly magnified.