@adbono posted:I will add, as a post script, that there are exceptions to what I said. There are SOME competitive programs that don’t blatantly over-recruit, don’t mislead their players, and provide an altogether different experience than the majority.
Actually there are many out there that don't over recruit, treat players fairly, we just don't hear about them.
Thank you for your post.
@adbono posted:This thread describes standard operating procedure at most competitive D1, D2, D3, JuCo, & NAIA programs. It has gotten much worse since Covid but it’s been going on to some degree for decades. It’s the seedy underbelly of college baseball that those involved with have attempted to keep hidden from the public. This is a perfect example of why parents need to take an active role in their player’s recruitment. You can’t expect a 17 year old HS kid to accurately assess what they are being told. They can’t filter out the BS, hear the nuances in what is said, and get a good read on the room before they make a decision. They need help from adults that understand the player and his goals. And they need help from people who understand how the recruiting game is played. I think that being a source for information about the recruiting process is one of the very best features of HSBBW.
There are plenty of parents who are just as gullible as the kids. I had a 16u player’s parents tell me North Carolina was recruiting their son. The kid filled out the online recruiting form and received a boilerplate invite to a camp. They chilled out when I filled out the form on behalf of my dog and showed them my dog got the same invite.
@Francis7 posted:Great thread in this one
This is a strange tweet. He's trying to educate the masses, but at the same time isn't he exposing his own deficiencies as a "specialist" in baseball recruiting? He seems to be in the baseball business, which means he should be familiar with the current landscape. This seems to be inadvertent self-admittance that he's not familiar with what's currently happening in college baseball. Truthfully, I imagine he knows very well about the over recruiting, but never talked reality into this '23 grad because each D1 commit out of his organization helps promote his business. Or maybe it's because he's promising college roster spots to his players (https://twitter.com/tromblybas.../1736964316220584076). This post about what happened to this '23 grad is just more advertisement for his business.
I would take that tweet with a big grain of salt
@adbono posted:I will add, as a post script, that there are exceptions to what I said. There are SOME competitive programs that don’t blatantly over-recruit, don’t mislead their players, and provide an altogether different experience than the majority. As a parent, your job is to find those programs. It isn’t easy, but I will give you a hint. Look hard at the character of the Head Coach. All programs are a reflection of the HC. If he is a good person that treats people well and surrounds himself with like minded people you are on the right track.
In spring 2014 oldest boys high school team was ranked #2 in 5A in Texas starting the year. Head coach had set up 4- 7 inning "scrimmages" on a Saturday with a local JUCO (with in 75 miles of our town, so that narrows it down for you Adbono).
Our top 6 pitchers and starters played the 1st 2 games. Not even competitive. High teens to low single digits in favor of the HS team, and it could have been a lot worse.
We thought we were all the stuff.
Then the HS back ups and JV played the remainder of the JUCO team. Those games were semi competitive, but fell in favor of the JUCO.
Turns out our Varsity starters played the JUCO JV, and the HS JV played the remainder of the kids that made it through the fall and stayed in school.
They came on 2 busses, so the actual "JUCO team" was at home practicing.
That was a warning sign to me about JUCO's that have JV teams. Not a warning about the actual program, but a warning that your kid better be good enough to be on the "varsity", or he's just a money maker for the program.
Is that general knowledge about a jv team or something one should ask?
@Dadof3 posted:Is that general knowledge about a jv team or something one should ask?
Somewhere on the board I think I once read that, if you are on the college JV team, the odds of you ever playing with the real college team are stacked against you and will probably never happen.
Believe it or not, some bigger colleges who have club teams even have a club JV team.
@Dadof3 posted:Is that general knowledge about a jv team or something one should ask?
A few 2023's I know are at a solid D2 and are on the JV. Very few JV players matriculate to the varsity. They take a ton of transfers every year. That would be a big red flag for me.
The first item I found when I googled "community college baseball jv":
Only consider JV if you are a pitcher and a younger one at that. My son’s JUCO is in the top 10 of D2. There are arms that played JV last year that could get a lot of innings on top team this year and likely get recruited by D1 schools. The year on JV allowed them to eat, lift, train, and get scrimmage innings and live AB’s both fall’s. One might look into doing a redshirt JUCO season instead.
@Francis7 posted:Somewhere on the board I think I once read that, if you are on the college JV team, the odds of you ever playing with the real college team are stacked against you and will probably never happen.
Believe it or not, some bigger colleges who have club teams even have a club JV team.
JV teams fall under the athletic department. Club teams fall under intramural/student activities. A coach may receive bonuses for every full paying student he can lure to the JV team. He receives nothing for club players.
@Dadof3 posted:Is that general knowledge about a jv team or something one should ask?
The player shouldn’t ask. He should go into recruiting with the mindset of a potential varsity starter.Do the research. If the coach mentions JV, run. Chances are the coach receives bonuses for recruiting full paying students. Any kid stuck on JV is going to be facing next years recruiting class on top on the one he entered with. Typically only later bloomer pitchers who improve markedly ever move up.
I also wouldn't be surprised if coaches have been told to recruit non-residents. It brings in more revenue as this article mentions: https://www.forbes.com/sites/m...nts/?sh=6da7e1af201d
I personally know of an NAIA school who's team's coach is REQUIRED to have 50 kids on the roster to start every spring. They don't have a JV team. The coach openly admits that its for enrollment purposes.
@Master P posted:I personally know of an NAIA school who's team's coach is REQUIRED to have 50 kids on the roster to start every spring. They don't have a JV team. The coach openly admits that its for enrollment purposes.
You can use the following link to review the 2023 fall roster numbers (2024 reporting year) for schools that published their rosters (NCAA and NAIA).
@PABaseball posted:NCAA looking out for college athletes? I don't think they're allowed to do that.
Jokes aside - there is nothing "wrong" with over recruiting and cutting kids. At the end of the day it is up to the student athlete to make an informed decision.
There is nothing "wrong" with a coach telling a player that they don't see him getting a ton of playing time and if he wants that he is better off transferring.
It's morally wrong, there are no rules against it.
Short Answer - No
Medium Answer - No, and they shouldn't
I think that you are correct. I don't really fault the college coaches for cutting players. I do believe that the problems lies with parents and players getting caught up in a name of a program rather than whether or not its a school that they can legitimately make the spring roster.
I know of several kids that have signed with Power Five programs that would shock me if they are on the roster by Thanksgiving of the freshman year. They should have considered a Juco or a lower D1 school that would really give them an opportunity to get better. At this point, I'm not so sure that any of the Power Five coaches are interested in developing their players any more. I think that if you aren't ready to impact the Power 5 program on day one then you are running a big risk.
@Ster posted:I think that you are correct. I don't really fault the college coaches for cutting players. I do believe that the problems lies with parents and players getting caught up in a name of a program rather than whether or not its a school that they can legitimately make the spring roster.
I know of several kids that have signed with Power Five programs that would shock me if they are on the roster by Thanksgiving of the freshman year. They should have considered a Juco or a lower D1 school that would really give them an opportunity to get better. At this point, I'm not so sure that any of the Power Five coaches are interested in developing their players any more. I think that if you aren't ready to impact the Power 5 program on day one then you are running a big risk.
So you're saying in every case where a coach cuts a player, it was always the player and families fault? Have to disagree with that.
Where are are these low level D1s that are developing players? My experience has been at the lower levels, maybe the coach isn't fighting to keep his job, but they are definitely trying to win games to advance their career.
In another thread someone just talked about players fitting into a coaches style. I agree with this completely. Sure if you're a stud, it likely doesn't matter, but if you're on the bubble......
It's been talked about forever on here of course there are the kids that verbally commit to a P5 before they've stepped onto a HS field, etc.
But when you have low/mid level D1s turning over entire rosters every year, you have to question the competency of the coach. St. Peters, I think the lowest level D1 does not have a single returning player this year....
Just randomly looked at a B10 roster. 40 players. 7 freshmen, 4 R-freshmen, no sophomores. 29 upperclassmen include 5 homegrown "products" and 24 transfers, 13 from juco. Looks like those freshmen have about a 1 in 4 chance of sticking.
I’ve typed and deleted a response several times. I’ll come back in six months and respond. I think most people have no idea the things that go on that you can’t really prepare for.
@baseballhs posted:I’ve typed and deleted a response several times. I’ll come back in six months and respond. I think most people have no idea the things that go on that you can’t really prepare for.
I hope you will share details. It would be eye opening for many people.
@baseballhs posted:I’ve typed and deleted a response several times. I’ll come back in six months and respond. I think most people have no idea the things that go on that you can’t really prepare for.
Please feel free to share when you’re ready.
Yeah, really interested to hear.
@baseballhs posted:I’ve typed and deleted a response several times. I’ll come back in six months and respond. I think most people have no idea the things that go on that you can’t really prepare for.
I have one of those too. So much has happened in the last 19 months since HS and much of it is truly "never in a million years did I ever think this is how it would happen." I don't think most people have a clue on what can happen after HS and how is sometimes is so far from what you imagined and expected that, after a while, it would be unbelievable if it wasn't true. I also want to warn people of what might happen. But, now is not the time. Plus, the story isn't close to being over yet.
@Francis7 posted:I have one of those too. So much has happened in the last 19 months since HS and much of it is truly "never in a million years did I ever think this is how it would happen." I don't think most people have a clue on what can happen after HS and how is sometimes is so far from what you imagined and expected that, after a while, it would be unbelievable if it wasn't true. I also want to warn people of what might happen. But, now is not the time. Plus, the story isn't close to being over yet.
As a parent who's son has signed with a low D1 school, and will be enrolling next fall, I am fascinated and also afraid to hear what you have to share. The only thing that many of us have to help prepare us for what to potentially expect is the good will and willingness of those of you who have been through the fire to share you experience.
@Ster posted:As a parent who's son has signed with a low D1 school, and will be enrolling next fall, I am fascinated and also afraid to hear what you have to share. The only thing that many of us have to help prepare us for what to potentially expect is the good will and willingness of those of you who have been through the fire to share you experience.
As you will learn, as long as your kid is still playing, you have to be careful about what you say publicly. Especially if it doesn’t reflect well on a particular program. Coaches talk to each other more than the general public realizes. @baseballhs is a smart woman and she is handling her situation appropriately. Now is not the time for her son’s story to be told.
@Ster posted:As a parent who's son has signed with a low D1 school, and will be enrolling next fall, I am fascinated and also afraid to hear what you have to share. The only thing that many of us have to help prepare us for what to potentially expect is the good will and willingness of those of you who have been through the fire to share you experience.
One thing that I will share now is the NLI signing experience.
It was exactly one year after signing, to the very day, that we were formally submitting the request to have my son completely released from his NLI. (Yes, if you want to be released from it, there’s a formal process and it starts with you filing a request to be released with the NLI organization which they send to the school for review and approval. The things you learn on the journey!) Thankfully, the school granted it. (From what I have heard, it’s not something that they normally have to do. And, if they don’t, it impacts what you can do next.)
If you would have told me, on signing day when he was up on that stage at school, smiling for pictures at the signing, that “Exactly 365 days later, you will be submitting paperwork to have this voided,” I would told you that it was impossible for you to be more wrong. Yet, it happened.
Now, obviously, my son is not the first or the only kid to walk away from a D1 or D2 program (and, a baseball scholarship) during or immediately after his freshmen season – and changing the look back on the experience of signing day. This happens much more than most people realize. But, I would bet that almost every player and parent, on that signing day, are NOT thinking “This is just for now and things can change pretty easily and the way that I look back at this moment in the future will be different than how I feel about it right now.”
I think about that sometimes when I see someone posting pictures of their kid on signing day on social media, trumpeting the moment. I don’t fault them for it. I did the same thing. We all do it. And, I am happy for them and the kid. It really is a special moment that not everyone gets to experience. Yet, part of me also wants to say “Hopefully this works out the way you want – because it’s not a lock.” But, I don’t say that because I know the response will be: It’s impossible for you be more wrong. After all, that’s what I would have said to it as well.
After talking to a lot of parents this past weekend I think you're starting to see some different decisions with where kids go to school. My son was talking to a kid who's signed to go to an up and coming mid major. The coach is stable and awesome. He told my son, "Why would I go to some big SEC school when I can go there and pitch meaningful innings as a freshman?"
@Francis7 posted:One thing that I will share now is the NLI signing experience.
It was exactly one year after signing, to the very day, that we were formally submitting the request to have my son completely released from his NLI. (Yes, if you want to be released from it, there’s a formal process and it starts with you filing a request to be released with the NLI organization which they send to the school for review and approval. The things you learn on the journey!) Thankfully, the school granted it. (From what I have heard, it’s not something that they normally have to do. And, if they don’t, it impacts what you can do next.)
If you would have told me, on signing day when he was up on that stage at school, smiling for pictures at the signing, that “Exactly 365 days later, you will be submitting paperwork to have this voided,” I would told you that it was impossible for you to be more wrong. Yet, it happened.
Now, obviously, my son is not the first or the only kid to walk away from a D1 or D2 program (and, a baseball scholarship) during or immediately after his freshmen season – and changing the look back on the experience of signing day. This happens much more than most people realize. But, I would bet that almost every player and parent, on that signing day, are NOT thinking “This is just for now and things can change pretty easily and the way that I look back at this moment in the future will be different than how I feel about it right now.”
I think about that sometimes when I see someone posting pictures of their kid on signing day on social media, trumpeting the moment. I don’t fault them for it. I did the same thing. We all do it. And, I am happy for them and the kid. It really is a special moment that not everyone gets to experience. Yet, part of me also wants to say “Hopefully this works out the way you want – because it’s not a lock.” But, I don’t say that because I know the response will be: It’s impossible for you be more wrong. After all, that’s what I would have said to it as well.
Thank you for sharing that. I guess my involvement on this message board and private messages via this website has helped me in many ways prepare for the years to come. I know that last November when my son's school had their signing day, everyone was all smiles. It was a big moment for my son, my wife, even our school that very rarely has a student athlete sign with a D1 school in any sport. While everyone was celebrating in the back of my mind I was thinking, "I just pray that this all works out the way that he thinks its going to work out." However, I have seen enough post, received enough messages etc... to know that this world of college baseball can have just as much frustration and heartache as it does celebration.
I have been a subscriber to Collegebaseballinsight.com long enough to see the raw numbers. The fact is that most of these college players that sign as Freshman rarely see that become a four year college experience at their signing school. It's impossible for that to happen when you see 40-60% of the college rosters get turned over every season with transfer players.
@Ster posted:Thank you for sharing that. I guess my involvement on this message board and private messages via this website has helped me in many ways prepare for the years to come. I know that last November when my son's school had their signing day, everyone was all smiles. It was a big moment for my son, my wife, even our school that very rarely has a student athlete sign with a D1 school in any sport. While everyone was celebrating in the back of my mind I was thinking, "I just pray that this all works out the way that he thinks its going to work out." However, I have seen enough post, received enough messages etc... to know that this world of college baseball can have just as much frustration and heartache as it does celebration.
I have been a subscriber to Collegebaseballinsight.com long enough to see the raw numbers. The fact is that most of these college players that sign as Freshman rarely see that become a four year college experience at their signing school. It's impossible for that to happen when you see 40-60% of the college rosters get turned over every season with transfer players.
@ster Appreciated, the numbers are hurting my head, also.
IMHO, the data just provides a glimpse as to how a coach is managing his roster annually.
The objective of CBI is to allow the user to be more familiar with the landscape, and have to ability to rationalize the moving parts.
Note, there is no right answer, but at least you can potentially weed out some programs.
Here is one rule of thumb.
Look at Head Coaching Tenure
If coach has 3+ years, just look at the last 3 yrs of turnover (outgoing, incoming)
Here are the coaching changes for the last 2 yrs
https://collegebaseballinsight...l-coaching-carousel/
https://collegebaseballinsight...l-coaching-carousel/
If any of these schools are on your target list, check out the incoming and outgoing player Insights for those specific years.
Assume there will be 10% to 15% Head Coach Turnover for the 2024-25 Season
One of my residences is in a small state. Last spring I went to the state championship game. By chance I ended up in a conversation with the dad of the top pitcher in the state. At the time he was a Gatorade POY finalist. He won a week later.
Like the three previous Gatorade POYs he signed with the same out of state, often ranked program. I asked the dad if he was aware of how it has gone for the three previous POYs at this program. Hint: none of them are still there
If the dad did his homework when he got home he didn’t enjoy dinner. Of course, chances are he told himself, “It will be different with my son.”
I wonder how many kids follow their coach, when the coach leaves? I wonder how many coaches leave that have a winning season?
@Dadof3 posted:I wonder how many kids follow their coach, when the coach leaves? I wonder how many coaches leave that have a winning season?
If a coach moves on voluntarily it’s typically for perceived greener pastures. My son’s coach was a rising star. He took the program as far as it could go. He left to return a mediocre program to its former glory. He improved the situation. But not enough to avoid getting fired after a few years.
The replacement was a rising star assistant coach. When he moved on he took a good program to the top tier.
@Dadof3 posted:I wonder how many kids follow their coach, when the coach leaves? I wonder how many coaches leave that have a winning season?
Not many, especially Year 1.
You can use the 2023 changes to see which colleges have players that have transferred from the original school
