Parental Involvement

As I have posted before:

I used to have to drag my kid to the baseball field to attend practice. Then, it never failed, I had to drag him off to go home.

Another great post from "Da Man".
Fungo,
I know what you mean.
You Can't take credit, Even though you are So involved??
It's still there journey.
EH

quote:

The painting you found for a steal at a garage sale for $50.00 is taken down and replaced with a framed baseball jersey that was a better deal --- yet the actual cost of that $40.00 jersey exceeds $1,000.00.

Just like the commercial says, "priceless" Even if you take the money out of the equation the real gift you provide your kids by supporting their sporting endeavors is time.

Wonderful post Fungo! Baseball has certainly become "life" to us over the years. About the only things we haven't done directly related to baseball was my daughter's other activities. Fortunately, she was always a supportive younger sister to my son as well and loves the game of baseball. I have absolutely no regrets or guilt over the amount of time, money, or efforts we spent with baseball. It brought far more to all of our lives than it cost in any way. I'm sure without your support, your son wouldn't have achieved all that he has and neither would have most of our young men. Parental support and love is needed for them to succeed on many levels IMO.

quote:

.... I know it does take parental support (and some prodding) to provide the opportunity for the young player to develop and grow.

Good points Fungo. I often wonder about this exact same thing. On the one hand I feel a kid should be motivated enough to do the things needed to succeed without being constantly pushed. On the other hand kids sometimes loose sight of what's required to achieve their goals.

In my case I get so frustrated with my 13 year old because it seems like he believes he can go to college on a video game scholarship. Lately I've had talks with him to give him the option of not playing ball if he doesn't want to (and I stress that I'll expect him to commit to doing hitting, throwing, and catching work at home in addition to practices). Given that he has the option of not playing if he doesn't want to, and he understands up front what will be expected, I don't hesitate to drag him outside on a regular basis to long-toss etc. (I'd just as soon save the $$$ rather than push a kid into playing if he doesn't want to.)

Pushing and prodding? Those are tough words I think. Involvement - I like that word much better and think it is important. I like the word facillitate which means to help or aid and I think that is what is meant here.

In my son's case, baseball has always been his favorite thing to do so I was a facillitator in that pursuit. He prodded me to support him and it was not the other way around. It sure helped the old man happened to love sports as well.

I think there are lines with all activities. The extreme cases come to mind like Todd Marinovich in football and possibly the Williams sisters in tennis. How about the Jackson Five? Was Joe Jackson merely prodding his kids onto stardom. How about Judy Garland? What about the parent that produces a prodigy on the piano by making them practice for hours a day for years and years while other kids are out doing other things? I think if there is a passion for something, a loving parent will help further that passion. Substituting baseball for video games seems like a good thing to me. Pushing, prodding, or driving kids to live up to a parent's vision or dream for that kid I am not sure of.

quote:

In my case I get so frustrated with my 13 year old

This is the age were it has to start to come from the player.
The commitment?
Now it may take a couple of year's to get to that point.
But it your player's choice??
Just keep playing.
EH

TR

Your post is right on the mark. You don't have to take credit because all baseball people give it to you. We Know. I smiled at the fishing remark because when my boys were younger, one of them made the comment about playiing baseball for me.

I told them that the batting cage could be taken down, the travel ball could stop, no more top of the line bats, gloves, shoes, underarmour etc. They could play in the local city leagues only like the rest of their friends that were riding motorcyles and snowboarding all the time.

I was going to buy me a Ranger Bass boat and go fishing every weekend. As a matter of fact, we could move back to WV cause they didn't need to be in So CA if they didn't want to play all this baseball.

That was the last time I heard that comment. Both of our sons have thanked my wife and I for all the things you mentioned. That's the best credit you can get.

I think part of what made/makes baseball so very special for us is that it is what my son has chosen to do.... it's what he loves to do. I would have never forced or pushed him to do it. I would have forced him to do SOMETHING instead of sitting on the couch playing videos if it ever came to that, but it didn't. If he had a passion for tennis, swimming or any other sport, I would have fully supported him... may not have enjoyed it as much myself, but I would have been there in every way.

I think for our kids, our involvement was necessary to help them reach goals, but their passion was much more necessary. Their passion is what brings them personal fulfillment and enjoyment in their endeavors and achievements.... that is priceless in my mind.

Yes...
..I have been criticized at times for being too involved. However...
..has ANYONE every been criticized for being too involved or pushing a child at SCHOOL (in their academic pursuits)?? Those who criticze just need to BUTT OUT of our business. I think the parents that foster a lack of competetiveness in their children do them a great disservice in preparting their children for the real world. My son takes his competetive zeal from the ballfield into the classroom, and has helped him succeed and push himself to get good grades.

Sometimes you have to nudge them a little to keep them going. Things are not alway smooth and easy. If it is really their passion, they will stick with it.

The people who asked me if it was right to place so much emphasis on school and baseball 5 years ago are wondering what their kids are going to do now that they are graduating(ed)

9 times out of 10 the criticism is merely good old fashioned player hating. Duck off a waters back.

Our sons were talking about this very topic over Christmas and both expressed thanks to their Dad for NEVER pushing them into any extra curricular activity...especially baseball. They talked at length about teammates who were under tons of parental pressure to perform on the the field and both declared they would never do that to their kids. It was interesting to hear their perspective.

There's a definate line between expecting responsible behavior, strong work ethic, committment, etc. and pushing your kids towards a goal. IMHO the whole idea of extra curricular activities is to allow kids to discover their passions, gifts, and interests. If a parent is the driving force behind the participation, the child really isn't free to discover.

quote:

Pushing, prodding, or driving kids to live up to a parent's vision or dream for that kid I am not sure of.

I took the video game console and sold it along with all the games on Ebay.

I do believe you can, and whether you should is a personal choice, push your son/daughter for more reasons that just a parents vision or dream.

I believe that it is far too easy to be distracted from the goals a child sets for himself, not the one the parents set, and therefore pushing and prodding towards said child's stated goals can be beneficial.

When my son's stated goal was to play college baseball and hopefully pro baseball, I told him that if that's what he really wanted to do, I was going to make him accountable. There were a great many days when we went to lift weights or run or forced him to call a friend to play long toss, that were the culmination of a not so nice conversation about the guys that were going to get scholarships weren't watching MTV and playing XBOX. If at any time he would have thrown his mitt down and said baseball sucks, I would have ended it there, but he never did.

At 17 years old, the summer between junior and senior year, a Pirates scout told me my son had a lot of ability, enough to get drafted, but in watching him around the ballfield, felt that he wasn't mentally mature enough to handle the rigors of professional baseball. When I shared this converstation with my son, he picked up the gauntlet on his own made the statement that he was going to be in the best possible shape he could be in come next season. For the most part, he is very good about working daily. Once in awhile though, I have to push or prod, and at times, not any to subtly, and make him accountable to his own goals.

It's not about the glory or being a braggard dad, it's about teaching the young person accountability and how to stay the path towards self proclaimed goals. It wouldn't matter if it was baseball, or band, or debate. The net result is not going to be whether he becomes a #1 at a big time college program or makes it to pro baseball. The net result is that from this endeavor, he will learn the benefits of hard work, goal setting, and the self satisfaction from truly trying his best that I don't believe most of todays world ever experiences in any endeavor.

If you're not outworking your neighbor, you're probably falling behind. That's why I push. JMHO

I don’t see anything wrong with supporting children at whatever they take an interest in. Provided it’s legal and can have a positive effect on them. If a young boy or girl shows some talent and interest at something, why not help them!

That said, I can honestly say I not once ever pushed my kids into anything. It was hard for them to ignore baseball because it was such a big part of our life. They simply gravitated towards baseball completely on their own. That made it much easier for me to do some “pushing” (helping) along the way. I would have been happy if they were interested in being musicians or anything else, but I wouldn’t have been much help at other things. Support … Yes… Push… No!

A story from the past, maybe others can relate to this…

I was at the Ball Park one day about 27 years ago and was told I had an important phone call. It was our babysitter crying on the phone telling me that our 3 year old son Ben was missing. Then I panicked and asked have you called the police… she did! I drove home as fast as I could worried to death. When I arrived home, there was a police car parked at our house. I ran inside and there was Ben with a couple smiling police officers. They told me that they found him crossing a busy intersection and when they asked him what he was doing, he told them he was going to the Ball Park to play ball with his dad! The Ball Park was 12 miles from our house and he was at least headed in the right direction.

I never once had to push him towards Base Ball! In fact, I had to slow him down at times.

TXmom

I don't think any of us are the "driving force" behind our kids. It's their dream. Sometimes you have to remind them of what it takes to live their dream. A lot of kids that really love baseball (and other sports) fall by the wayside from the lack of a coach or parent to help them along the way.

I think the word "push" has turned into a 4 letter word and taken out of context

Our son lives and breathes baseball. But even he can be complacent at times. If it's hunting season, he's chomping at the bit to go get that buck and long toss or BP can get pushed to the side. That's where parental involvement has proved to be very helpful. A gentle reminder from Dad and an offer to take him and work out ofentimes are just what is needed to get him back on track.

A couple of years ago, my husband and I wondered if son truly had the fire in his belly that would get him to the college level. My husband is a former athlete who made the Olympic Trials in his chosen sport and he remembers the fierce drive and dedication it took to get to that point. But we've found that part of the problem with our son was that he was simply immature and short-sighted. As he's grown, his drive, self-discipline, and long-term vision have developed significantly. That said, little nudges along the way from Mom and Dad have helped in that regard.

There are many interesting perspectives here and I have enjoyed reading them.

The thing I guess I take from this is that there is probably no "right" way or answer to this...every kid is a little different.

I have two boys. My older boy has thick skin and can handle adversity fairly well. I have been blunt with him regarding work ethic and what it takes to be successful because I know he will let it roll off. I prod and challenge him to work harder and do more than anyone else because he will get his back up and make himself better. He loves the game today at 16 as much as ever.

My younger boy would not respond well to the prodding because of his personality. He would get frustrated and quit baseball eveentually if I push him too hard. So instead, I invite his friends to go with us to the batting cages ot I offer other enticements to get him on the ballfield. He seems more responsive to those approaches, although he may not develop as quickly as my older boy did. At least he will remain playing the game, I hope.

Ultimately, most kids will give subtle hints when you are pushing the wrong buttons and you just need to listen and respond appropriately.

I never had to push my son in anything he did. I never asked if his homework was done. I used not letting him go to a game as punishment but never actually carried it out.
I tried to get him to play tennis and hockey but he had no interest. I only did that to give him the opportunity. He just wanted to play BB ,basketball and for a while volley ball. I actually encouraged him to play video games as I saw a great benefit in the motor skills and mental concentration. He loves video games and even takes a portable on the road.
My view was to support him in what ever he did rather than force him to do what I wanted. My love for BB grew through watching him and his teammates. I was more of a FB guy growing up.

PG, Great story with a message that holds true. For most of us who have been accused of pushing our kids towards baseball don't realize if the kids could have driven themselves they would have. The kids provide the passion, and as parent we provide the opportunities and enjoy the ride.

It used to bother me a little when people said I "too involved", then one day as I was sprawled out on a picnic table, catching some rays, spittin seeds, and watching my 14 year old team run their own practice like clockwork I thought about it. From that day on I laughed about being "too involved" and actually felt bad for those who thought of me like that because they didn't know what they were missing.

wvmtner...

I can appreciate your view, but I've seen my fair share of "over involved" parents at every level including the pros and sometimes their actions go way beyond help and support. It usually starts with good intentions, but escalates into total control of everything connected with "their son's dream."

I bet there are just as many players who have fallen by the wayside because of parents who have either drained the fun out of the dream or cost their son opportunities by their actions.

Parents need to be careful...involvement can also be a slippery slope with negative consequences.

Fungo, nice post and thread. We were talking to a family (Mom) this past weekend and she said how very lonely they are now that their child has gone off to college. They are like my wife and myself and only have one child. Everything that they did and essentially who they were seemed to be wrapped up in their child. Now, it seems as if. as a couple, they are lost. It really gave my wife and I something to think about.

First, we don't care whether our child plays college ball or not or whether she gets a scholarship. Her college is already paid for and so, if she does then fine. If not, we're prepared to just be her mom and dad. She talks all of the time about playing in college yet, she hasn't even entered HS yet. Her most recent intent is for her and her friend Michelle to go play at Northwestern. Why Northwestern? They made it to the championship game in softball and so, she watched almost every inning this year with an Illinois team advancing.

In assessing ourselves, I am too involved. I have to pull back some. I think the ability to be honest with oneself assessing whether, as parents, we are a help or a hinderance is difficulty. If your kid enjoys the game and you being there then don't stop. If you find that they are wanting you to pull back some, then do so. Personally, I think that we are there. JMHO!

quote:

Parents need to be careful...involvement can also be a slippery slope with negative consequences.

TxMom,

While I agree with your point, I think that for the same reason that I think it's ABSOLUTLY no ones business to question how I raise my kids. I should also not pass judgement on others. I think you and I are on the same page concerning this. This is a touchy issue that is very subjective, and ultimatly judged in hindsight when it has finished it's coarse. I have seen those parents in many sports where I cringe with their tatics concerning "involvement". I have also seen very talented players on the same teams who's parents do nothing more than come to a game. I cringe there also, not because of lack of committment, but because the full potential is not realized. But, I do not go there because that is their way to raise their kids.

I harken back to when my son was ready to turn 12 years of age and in LL, he is now 30, and said to me "Dad can you find another coach for the team next year?"--I asked why and his answer was simple---" I want to see if I am as good as everyone says I am ---if you are not coaching I will be able to know that it isn't you making me the star"

Never coached him again from then on---yes I was involved and was still involved after that but it was conversation when he wanted to converse---not his father coaching him

A little "prodding" is ok...even worth it, as long as they remain interested and it's not OVERDONE to the point they become resentful. How often do you hear about parents who DON'T become involved?

It's all about striking a balance consistent with the needs and personalities of your kids.

Tx Mom is right. There are too many examples of over-involved parents or backbiting parents, or parents who get too involved with hating or kissing the rear end of coaches, etc. However, most baseball parents do the best by their kids, and as they get older, move farther and farther away from the field, giving their children the space to develop. I think, in retrospect, that is even more rewarding than seeing accomplishments on the field. My compliments to the many posters on this site who reflect the best in baseball parenting.

kb2610,

That's a pretty good and short post!

I never thought much about parenting when it mattered the most. Just did what I thought was right most of the time. Later on I discovered much of it was in fact wrong!

But even if an expert on parenting would have taught me, I doubt things would have changed much.

We do see parents that sometimes go off the deep end. We also see kids that have no support at all! Personally, I tend to get closer to those kids who lack any parental support. They are the ones that really need the most help.

These parent discussions always interest me. It's kind of like baseball... No one ever knows everything there is to know about the subject. We raised 4 children, they all did and are doing fine. Not exactly sure how that happened, but glad it did. I still know very little about being a parent other than parents should love and care.

I've seen (IMO) great parents end up with rotten kids. I've seen (IMO) rotten parents end up with great kids.

PG - While I'm sure you and your wife didn't find your story amusing at the time, that is a very amusing story about your three year old! Very cute!!

My wife and I have driven so many miles for so many years. ... and when we're not on the road, in many ways, we are lost.

We've sometimes hardly known our next-door neighbors, but we've been close to families of out-of-state teammates and opponents and still follow many of them today.

W've always told our kids they had to be good at something. We told them if they can make it happen, we'll make sure they get the chance.

We've seemingly lived paycheck to paycheck for more than 15 years trying to keep up our end of the deal, whether it be baseball, or hockey, or singing/acting, or who knows what else. We've taken second jobs and worked odd hours to try to make the schedules work.

The whole family was all home this year for Christmas, for the first time in three years. Yet the only time everyone was in the same place at the same time during the 10-day stretch was at midnight Mass.

We've hoped in the end it all works out, but we won't know until 5 years after whether it did or didn't.

But we wouldn't change a thing.

By all measures, I view parental involvement is a very good thing if it focuses on encouragement and support while the child provides the drive and motivation. Like anything, excesses or blind subjectivity can be a bad thing.

Some would say I'm extremely involved in my kids activities, but it's always in the form of being their greatest fan, a personal coach if they ask for my opinion or help, and a facilitator of the logistics (driving, volunteering, private lessons, club teams, etc.) to help them achieve their own goals (not my goals). But the desire, motivation, goals, vision, and hard work all have to be owned by them. Yes, I am driven to make my kids my biggest personal 'hobby' :-). I've always exposed my kids to a variety of sports given my background in several sports as a kid, some at the CIF and National AAU level. For me as a kid it was a substitute for the lack of a family. For my kids its a way to stay healthy and get exposed to working with others in a team environment and learn to set objective goals and strive towards them. Two of my kids excel at sports and the third simply has no interest, which is fine. I just ask him to demonstrate an interest in SOME form of extracurricular activity, set some goals, and strive for them. He sometimes struggles with what he sees as unfair comparisons, where I see just a common standard. If I tell him he has to get a job since he's not doing any sports, he complains that his older brother didn't have a job in HS ... and I just tell him that baseball IS his brother's job, which is now paying for his college education no differently than had he bagged groceries and put the money in a college savings account.

I am self-aware enough to admit this is a bit personal 'compulsion': partly a response to my own upbringing where I had practically zero parental involvement. My mother was usually in a semi-conscious fog on her bi-polar drugs, unable to even get out of bed let alone drive me into town from the farm, so usually one of my sisters or a friend would shuttle me. After my sisters moved away, I had a motorcycle and I'd avoid the police by driving dirt roads up to the school gym or swimming pool. My father made very rare appearances at my LL, basketball games, swim meets, etc., and had little to say about my activities either way other than that they took me away from working on the farm. He was always too busy, first with the farm, then after a divorce too busy dating such that through HS I pretty much lived in an empty house. So sports became a way for me to feel like I belonged to something that placed value in me and a way to set goals and excel at them. My father so little understood the role of a father in the lives and activities of his children that even when he lay dying in the hospital last year, the last thing he told me was that he didn't understand why I did all that running around 'S***' for my kids. My only response to my dying father was that I loved my children unconditionally and the support I gave them was simply a demonstration of that love, just as I loved him ... unfortunately he died not comprehending that.

Some kids need to be pushed a little because they have a tendency to loose focus. Some kids do not need to be pushed they are self motivated and driven. But they all need a kick in the pants from time to time. If you find your kid sitting in front of the tv all the time and their grades are dropping do you just sit there and say nothing? If you find they are not working at the sport they participate in do you do the same thing and say nothing? Sometimes we all need someone to snap us out of a funk. There is a big difference in giving support and helping kids stay focused and being the driving force behind an endeavor. The kids that do not really have the love for the game will be out of the game as soon as the effort needed to stay in the game outweighs the desire to play. No matter how much the parent wants it for them. And likewise the kid that truly loves the game will overcome whatever obstacles a parent or anyone else puts in their way. JMHO

pbonesteele - You speak from the heart and are a fine writer. I have always admired your posts. I also remember riding the dirt roads and avoiding the police to get places

Coach May - I agree. A kick in the pants from time to time is different than supplying the motiviation or the desire.

quote:

The kids that do not really have the love for the game will be out of the game as soon as the effort needed to stay in the game outweighs the desire to play. No matter how much the parent wants it for them.

Very interesting thread, and a lot of good points made. I think many of us who frequent this site could be considered "too involved" by others. (I meant that to include me.)

It's a balancing act, to provide the opportunities but make sure the kid chose the dream, and still wants it for himself. My boys both had lofty goals as teenagers, one in music and one in sports. One son seemed completely self-motivated both in school and his #1 extracurricular (music). The other son was the hardest worker at every practice or game, but sometimes would spend too much time in front of the TV or video game and forget about a homework assignment or about the weightlifting he had planned to do in the basement. Once in a while he needed a reminder of what kind of work it took to pursue HIS goals.

I do know that through the years we put more miles on the car for sports and music than "normal" families do, and spent lots of money that we didn't have on lessons, equipment, fees, etc. It all seems worth it, both for the fun and opportunities it helped our boys have, AND for the fact that we never have to look back and wonder what our kids could have done if we had supported them more.

Great thread Fungo. Many good perspectives. I'm guilty of "parental involvement" but I make no apologies.

I got drilled by a "parental involvement" mother in the past few days about moving our 8th grade son to another team...in her mind to her son's detriment (she wanted him moved too, but it wasn't in the cards). I told her she had no business drilling me, but that I applauded her for sticking up for her son and that I understood she was trying to do her job as a mother.

Thats all any of us are trying to do...what we perceive as best for our child. I don't mind (too much ) being popped when I step out of line. Sometimes its my wife doing the "popping" though. Thats when I know I really deserve it!

Great points, Coach.

I guess I just cringed a little whenever I hear the word "push" and baseball in the same sentence.

There's some great insights here. I agree wholeheartedly with rz1 that how we raise our kids is our business.

The prods and pushes and even overbearing admonishment that I have given my sons all revolve around one thing that I have shared with them at times through the years. I tell them "what a shame it would be to be middle aged and wonder how good you really could have been if you'd just given it your best effort".

As the parent of younger players I always appreciate other viewpoints from those that have been there and done that.

I have always been involved in decisions based on their baseball. Usually the oldest is bugging me about going out to practice. Not much prodding there, and when I go, the rest have to follow. Whatever decision was made there was discussion so my oldest always new how our decisions were made. Recently, we changed teams, hurt a lot of feelings, and have been called some very unflattering names. Before changing we talked about pros and cons and ultimately left the decision to my son. He chose to leave knowing consequences. It appears he made the correct choice and HE is very happy with his decision. We were proud of him for being "gutsy" enough to leave his "comfortable friends" and go try and reach some goals.(BTW-thanks Justbaseball )
We are very involved in his baseball but it really is "his" thing and all we can do is guide. He is the one that lives with the consequences of his choice.

We are all involved parents or we most likely would not be here.

I see no problem with parents being involved when it comes to their kids extra curricular activities (whatever it may be).

As our kids go from childhood to young adulthood and become good at what we and they have been "involved" with, the involvement for some parents can become an obsession.

Then I see a problem.

I think that perhaps 100% of the parents who have posted in this thread have done things the right way. Some may label you/me/us as too involved. Some may truly be too involved.

Internationally known Sport Psychologist Rick Wolff has stated that children of 'helicoptor parents' often have difficulties when a physical distance comes between the athlete and parent, even if the athlete is considered to be elite.

I have researched this phenomenon while working on my master's thesis. You all have offered great perceptions/opinions.

Here is an article that some may find interesting.....it is long, but just reading the first handful of sentences will give you a glimpse into something that is not uncommon.....

http://www.usoc.org/19578_32953.htm