First, there are 18-25 players on most varsity baseball teams. 9 to 10 start in any given game. A few more get playing time. I have been around alot of baseball in a wide range of roles (player, parent, coach, writer) and in wide range of settings (Little League to major Div I). The vast majority of players and parents are good people who not only follow the rules, but respect the game by respecting their parents, coaches, teammates, and umpires.
That said, there are some bad situations created by both parents and players. Some of these have no rational relationship to reality. It is Timmy, a spoiled brat, and mom and dad from Hell, who think the Universe revolves around Timmy, who create all sorts of problems for a program. The reality, even in these cases, is that the coach and/or the administration have created an environment that allows Timmy to be a part of the program.
Now, some of the "bad situations" involving parents and players are rationally related to reality. John is a hell of a player and good kid, but he sits behind kids like Timmy because of a coach's favoritism or a connection or a donation or any number of factors. The kids know who the better player is, so it is difficult for mom and dad to lie to John and try to tell him that Timmy DESERVES his starting job. John knows better. Mom and dad lose all credibility if they don't tell the truth. The only thing one can do in that situation is pull John out of the program and explain to the coach why.
I have seen way, way too much preference shown to lesser players to ever judge players who deserve a shot or parents whose son deserves a shot. My guess is that over 50% of the "bad situations" in programs is the result of blatant favoritism. Well over 50%.
TRhit--I simply disagree with you here. Whether Club ball or varsity ball, and even in college ball, there are myriad NON-PLAYING factors that influence a coach's decision on who plays. Money, connections, family friendships, relationships/networking for the future. . . Way too many playing time decisions are based NOT on merit, but on these other factors. It sickens me to see it, but I see it all the time.
Just like the original post cites a single example of the horrors that have invaded her program, let me tell you about one. Private school that recruits. Coach brings in 15-20 kids per year, telling most of them they will be key players if they work hard. They all work hard. Seriously, 50 kids try out. 20 make the team. 10-12 kids play. And, BASED ON OBJECTIVE NUMBERS ALONE, not even half deserve to start over kids who are sitting. Program succeeds because those who play, even if not as good as some who sit, are still quality players. But the point is that merit means NOTHING in the coach's decision with respect to three, four, five or more players. There are kids sitting who, for 6 or 8 years coming into the program, outplayed, year after year, the kids who are playing ahead of them on this team. And, when the bench sitters do play, they get more hits, and make more plays, and have more successful outings, than many of the kids who play full time, even with the huge advantages full-time play presents.
In some case you are correct. But there are too many coaches who play favorites for me to ever be convinced of your position.
quote:Originally posted by Roy Hobbs:
It is refreshing to see some of the posts on this thread. I'm in my 9th year as a Head Baseball Coach. I don't go through seasons without making mistakes and understand that in baseball the lineup you put out there could have been the wrong one on that given day..To this point in my career I have been very succesful, but unless we get help will miss the playoffs tonight for my first time. The group of Seniors we have were 4-21 the year before I got this job as freshman. We are a mediocre 15-15 following last years 22-15 which saw us win the first playoff series in some time at my current school..I spend most my spare time on baseball and always have..Books, videos clinics and TV..Suddenly I'm not a good coach in the opinions of half our parents..Bad moves, wrong lineups etc. I'm burnt out for the first time ever and i'm relieved the season is over. The parents helped turn a decent season into a tough one..We have lost 4 straight and there is only bickering and selfishness from parents..The losing streak is because of bad lineups and decisions..Not the fact we have an average Senior class, lost our catcher 3 weeks ago to broken hand and ace who was 6-1 to elbow issues..What is happening to this game..What is wrong with being a teammate? Role player? We've had 3 underclassmen quit the past 2 weeks..why because they will be backups next season most likely..Really a shame..
Hang in there, and keep working.
Don't let this season ruin anything for the future.
I saw our team miss the playoffs 2 years in a row. Last year it went down to a 3 way tie for the 2nd/3rd place in district. We lost both games by 1 run, and didn't make the playoffs. It unfortunately cost the head coach his job. He is still at the school coaching football, but it was ultimately a bad situation due to some parents.
This year we are district champs. We've won over 20+ games and it's a lot of fun. Great for me as my son is a Sr. and this is it for his baseball career. He is going D1.... accepted to engineering program at Texas A&M.
Parents can cause issues during the season, but a coach has to have control. Our coach will not talk to the parents about playing time, period. In my opinion it's the players responsibility to approach his coach about his performance on/off the field.
It's not always politics or favoritism that puts a good player on the bench in favor of a player who isn't as good. That player may be great on the field but he's struggling so badly in the classroom, the coach knows he's going to be ineligible next week. Or he's spending his weekends partying and the gossip got back to the coach. Or his attitude is horrible. There are so many factors that make up a good baseball player, and not all of them necessarily show up in an at-bat.
I can tell you about two of the best high school coaches and programs in the country, year-in and year-out. Both have superstart coaches and, every year, win or contend for the league and State championships. Both send at least 4 or 5 kids per year to Div I programs or, in some cases, straight to the pros. These are year-round programs with almost total commitment from coaches, players, and parents. They would seem to be shining examples of how it is supposed to be done. However, in both cases, a single thing destroys the credibility of each.
That thing? Integrity, or lack of it. In both programs the coaches tell the players and parents, in February of each year, how things will be run. It is always the same. Coaches door is always open, but parents cannot talk about PT or other players. Players must (1) maintain eligibility; (2) never talk back to umpires; (3) never curse on the field; (4) never throw equipment or have an attitude.
So, every year, the parents who disregard the coaches' rules about discussing PT and players, end up with their kids, sometimes less talented than other kids, playing more. And, every year, the favorites of the coaches, regardless of talent level, play in spite of talking back to umpires, cursing, throwing equipment, or showing disrespect to teammates. EVERY YEAR.
There is a small undercurrent of anxiety about the programs, but nothing constant winning won't crush. It amazes me every year that the coaches say the same thing, then never enforce the rules or standards.
So, coaches, parents, players--the NUMBER ONE rule in baseball, as in all of life, is never lose your integrity. You may still win games, and even hush the undercurrent of dissatisfaction, but you will have revealed a deficient moral character that will preclude real respect from anyone.
That thing? Integrity, or lack of it. In both programs the coaches tell the players and parents, in February of each year, how things will be run. It is always the same. Coaches door is always open, but parents cannot talk about PT or other players. Players must (1) maintain eligibility; (2) never talk back to umpires; (3) never curse on the field; (4) never throw equipment or have an attitude.
So, every year, the parents who disregard the coaches' rules about discussing PT and players, end up with their kids, sometimes less talented than other kids, playing more. And, every year, the favorites of the coaches, regardless of talent level, play in spite of talking back to umpires, cursing, throwing equipment, or showing disrespect to teammates. EVERY YEAR.
There is a small undercurrent of anxiety about the programs, but nothing constant winning won't crush. It amazes me every year that the coaches say the same thing, then never enforce the rules or standards.
So, coaches, parents, players--the NUMBER ONE rule in baseball, as in all of life, is never lose your integrity. You may still win games, and even hush the undercurrent of dissatisfaction, but you will have revealed a deficient moral character that will preclude real respect from anyone.
Ike: I have seen exactly what you describe many times at many levels. It is a shame. Alot of kids who have talent and work hard fail to get opportunity because of favoritism in the system. Sure, there are some great merit-based teams, both HS and Club, and almost all of the worst favoritism washes out at the college level and certainly pro level, but the damage is done if it is done at the HS level. The kid with big-time potential who gets no PT gets no exposure to the college coaches and pro scouts, gets no numbers to tout, and gets less development opportunity. This is the worst cancer in youth sports, and it drives kids away and, unfortunately, often they turn to terrible things such as drugs and alcohol. Really too bad. It would be great if it were all truly merit-based, but coaches, administrators, and parents who want to spoil their kid won't get out of the way.
Parents at every level of the game will complain when they feel that their child is not getting their money's worth for being on the team.
I have seen high school teams carry excessive numbers of players to get more dollars each year. This will always create a bad setting. Parents pay for their child to play, not sit the bench as role players. Rather than carry the less talented player for the sake of money, it is better to carry fewer players who will actually paricipate in the game.
There are not different prices for starters, pitchers, role players and bench warmers. As long as parents feel that they are getting what they paid for there will be fewer complaints regardless of the team's record or performance.
I have seen high school teams carry excessive numbers of players to get more dollars each year. This will always create a bad setting. Parents pay for their child to play, not sit the bench as role players. Rather than carry the less talented player for the sake of money, it is better to carry fewer players who will actually paricipate in the game.
There are not different prices for starters, pitchers, role players and bench warmers. As long as parents feel that they are getting what they paid for there will be fewer complaints regardless of the team's record or performance.
As soon as the player believes its out of his hands and in someone else's hands he is done. Period. As soon as a parent realizes its out of their hands and in someone else's hands they are done. Period. Some parents simply can not come to grips with this. Some players are given excuses to fail by the very people that should be helping them succeed.
A player should never ever allow anyone else to determine his fate in this game. Yes they can put some pot holes in front of him. Yes they can make it a little tougher for him. Yes they can make it a lot tougher for him. But they can not stop the determined player. But a parent who has a well intentioned but misguided agenda can and does many times.
There will always be some type of politics. And they can always be defeated with the proper work ethic, attitude and talent. And they can always be used as an excuse to fail and cause the situation to be miserable not only for the player but the parents as well.
A player should never ever allow anyone else to determine his fate in this game. Yes they can put some pot holes in front of him. Yes they can make it a little tougher for him. Yes they can make it a lot tougher for him. But they can not stop the determined player. But a parent who has a well intentioned but misguided agenda can and does many times.
There will always be some type of politics. And they can always be defeated with the proper work ethic, attitude and talent. And they can always be used as an excuse to fail and cause the situation to be miserable not only for the player but the parents as well.
There is always politics and yes favoritism. But when a coach has winning seasons year after year and sends guys off to play college ball, he's doing something right. My original post was not to suggest that favoritism and politics didn't exist. It was obvious to me that the team was failing because of parents badmouthing and players caring more about their own personal playing time than the team winning. So how do we stand at the end of the season? The trouble making parents have taken their balls and gone home. They wanted to make a point and refuse to attend any more games. And guess what's happened! We haven't lost a game in three weeks! The players are finally being allowed to enjoy the game and their team.
There is no doubt that there are some bad-apple parents and that they can spoil much of, if not the entire, barrel. But I have seen way too much politics and favoritism at the Club and HS levels to ever judge any player or parent who struggles with a coach's PT decisions. I have seen many really good players sit behind average ones SOLELY BECAUSE the coach liked the average kid better.
Another factor that coaches never admit but which is a reality in each and every one of us is their mental frameworks, biases, and prejudices. I have known coaches who have preconceptions about what physique fits certain positions. This is usually an infield issue. For example, many coaches refuse to believe a 2B can be taller than 5'10". They play a much less talented kid at 2B because he fits their framework for what a 2B looks like. Meanwhile, a super-talented 6'2" kid rides the pine or is relegated to LF. The reality is that the latter kid twice the player the former kid is. But the coach has his prejudices and cannot overcome them. It is amazing how this happens. I have seen it as a player, a coach (my own preconceptions), and a parent. And it stinks.
Another factor that coaches never admit but which is a reality in each and every one of us is their mental frameworks, biases, and prejudices. I have known coaches who have preconceptions about what physique fits certain positions. This is usually an infield issue. For example, many coaches refuse to believe a 2B can be taller than 5'10". They play a much less talented kid at 2B because he fits their framework for what a 2B looks like. Meanwhile, a super-talented 6'2" kid rides the pine or is relegated to LF. The reality is that the latter kid twice the player the former kid is. But the coach has his prejudices and cannot overcome them. It is amazing how this happens. I have seen it as a player, a coach (my own preconceptions), and a parent. And it stinks.
quote:Originally posted by isaacvanwart:
There is no doubt that there are some bad-apple parents and that they can spoil much of, if not the entire, barrel. But I have seen way too much politics and favoritism at the Club and HS levels to ever judge any player or parent who struggles with a coach's PT decisions. I have seen many really good players sit behind average ones SOLELY BECAUSE the coach liked the average kid better.
Another factor that coaches never admit but which is a reality in each and every one of us is their mental frameworks, biases, and prejudices. I have known coaches who have preconceptions about what physique fits certain positions. This is usually an infield issue. For example, many coaches refuse to believe a 2B can be taller than 5'10". They play a much less talented kid at 2B because he fits their framework for what a 2B looks like. Meanwhile, a super-talented 6'2" kid rides the pine or is relegated to LF. The reality is that the latter kid twice the player the former kid is. But the coach has his prejudices and cannot overcome them. It is amazing how this happens. I have seen it as a player, a coach (my own preconceptions), and a parent. And it stinks.
I agree I have seen it in some form or fashion in a lot of teams HS or Club. A lot of times on teams that my sons team was playing and not always his team, but sometimes it's his team as well. If the player, cannot play through it, get better and beat out the other player, then explore your options, just make sure you have a real good conversation with yourself and your son before you pull the trigger.
isaacvanwart - your personal experiences that you speak of do not remotely come close to my own in this game. I am so sorry you have had such a horrible experience with the game of baseball. Maybe it will get better.
quote:Give your son a foundation that does not shake, crack, or waver. No matter who the coach is or what the situation is he brings it everyday and he is a good team mate everyday and he is who he is regardless of the situation. You overcome adversity. You are not going to be in a good situation all the time. Your going to have to fight for what you want. Your going to have some tough battles. Your going to have to overcome some things you might see as unfair. Your going to have to deal with some things that are simply out of your control. But what do you control? Then dad gum it control what you control.
AMEN Coach May, every word of that spoken is the way it is.
isaac: Yeah it happens, but not on our team. It makes no sense to me that we have parents crying favoritism when we go to the playoffs every year without any real studs on the team. How in the world do you question a coach's lineup decisions when we win the conference (or come close) every year? What we've got is parents that can't accept that their Johnny isn't the better player.
How do you know these parents are saying negative things in front of the kids? Did they come to you complaining? You asked them and they gave you an opinion-right or wrong. First, if the players are yelling at each other- That is on the coach! They need to get control and let them know from day one that is unacceptable-just like teachers do in the classroom at the beginning of the yr. How a coach reacts to situations-either in dugout or on field sets the tone of the season. I do find that those that complain the most usually contribute the least, but from your post we don't really know all the facts and what is truly going on with this group. They may be complainers or have legitimate concerns. Wondering if you have only been on winning teams and what you would be saying if your son was on a team like they are this yr. You may have legitimate complaints. Just saying-parents are right sometimes.
quote:Originally posted by isaacvanwart:
There is no doubt that there are some bad-apple parents and that they can spoil much of, if not the entire, barrel. But I have seen way too much politics and favoritism at the Club and HS levels to ever judge any player or parent who struggles with a coach's PT decisions. I have seen many really good players sit behind average ones SOLELY BECAUSE the coach liked the average kid better.
Another factor that coaches never admit but which is a reality in each and every one of us is their mental frameworks, biases, and prejudices. I have known coaches who have preconceptions about what physique fits certain positions. This is usually an infield issue. For example, many coaches refuse to believe a 2B can be taller than 5'10". They play a much less talented kid at 2B because he fits their framework for what a 2B looks like. Meanwhile, a super-talented 6'2" kid rides the pine or is relegated to LF. The reality is that the latter kid twice the player the former kid is. But the coach has his prejudices and cannot overcome them. It is amazing how this happens. I have seen it as a player, a coach (my own preconceptions), and a parent. And it stinks.
I rarely see better kids sit behind worse players. If there is a difference, it is so small as to be nearly undetected. We have played 24 games this Spring. I have yet to see a player in the JV game that I thought was better than the Varsity guys that were in the lineup.
Why would a coach do this? I hear it all of the time. The coach simply has a different perception than the parents, so it must be favoritism. If your kid isn't in the lineup, it must be favoritism. Maybe your kid isn't as good as you think he is?
I have yet to hear of a coach trying to lose. If he thought the kid on the bench was better, then that kid would be in the lineup. End of discussion.
Strangely enough I'll agree with TRhit on this one when he says that the majority of the time the better player plays and I'll disagree with Coach May when he says:
However, add an almost in front of always and I'll agree with Coach May.
The majority of the time the better players do play even in the programs with the most favoritism. In many cases better is hard to define given that different coaches legitimately have different versions of what is better depending on the style of play they prefer.
There are cases where the better player sits but they are rare and they are tough to handle for the parents and the players.
realteam,
I know of a case where the assistant coaches asked a head coach to at least let a sub 7.0 senior pinch run and the coach refused. The pitching coach recommended that the same kid who threw upper 80s (well documented) start a meaningless game at the end of the season and the coach refused. The coach wasn't totally without integrity. The game after the coach told a college coach who came to see the player (btw, the only player on the team that a college coach came to see that season) that he'd been "trying to get him in but just hadn't gotten the chance.", he gave the kid his 3rd and final inning of the season throwing him into the final inning of a blowout without giving him time to warmup in the pen. Even so the kid overmatched the hitters.
BTW, the same coach kept a kid on JV as a junior who signed with a major D1 before ever playing varsity ball. The player eventually signed in pro ball for 7 figures.
quote:And they can always be defeated with the proper work ethic, attitude and talent.
However, add an almost in front of always and I'll agree with Coach May.
The majority of the time the better players do play even in the programs with the most favoritism. In many cases better is hard to define given that different coaches legitimately have different versions of what is better depending on the style of play they prefer.
There are cases where the better player sits but they are rare and they are tough to handle for the parents and the players.
realteam,
I know of a case where the assistant coaches asked a head coach to at least let a sub 7.0 senior pinch run and the coach refused. The pitching coach recommended that the same kid who threw upper 80s (well documented) start a meaningless game at the end of the season and the coach refused. The coach wasn't totally without integrity. The game after the coach told a college coach who came to see the player (btw, the only player on the team that a college coach came to see that season) that he'd been "trying to get him in but just hadn't gotten the chance.", he gave the kid his 3rd and final inning of the season throwing him into the final inning of a blowout without giving him time to warmup in the pen. Even so the kid overmatched the hitters.
BTW, the same coach kept a kid on JV as a junior who signed with a major D1 before ever playing varsity ball. The player eventually signed in pro ball for 7 figures.
quote:The majority of the time the better players do play even in the programs with the most favoritism. In many cases better is hard to define given that different coaches legitimately have different versions of what is better depending on the style of play they prefer.
This statement couldn't be more true.Some coaches look at different skills as more valuable.BUT with that said in the end almost every time the coach will come back around to the hitters, if others aren't producing.
I think it's very RARE for better players to sit. The difference of course is in who is rating those players as "better". Perception is key here.
I over heard a discussion the other day at a HS game...a parent made a comment about a kid who was starting, when he struck out. In fact the kid had a 0-3 game that day. The Parent (who's kid isn't starting) commented "Can't believe that kid is still starting."
The parent next to him replied "Everyone has a bad game. Last game I think that kid went 3-3 and 2-3 before that. Truth is he's probably got the highest average on the team. Besides, he can go 0-3 if he keeps making plays like he's making in the field."
Perception.
The only times I have ever witnessed a Coach knowingly sit a better player? It had to do with the player's attitude or grades, or the kid's parents had ticked the Coach off.
I over heard a discussion the other day at a HS game...a parent made a comment about a kid who was starting, when he struck out. In fact the kid had a 0-3 game that day. The Parent (who's kid isn't starting) commented "Can't believe that kid is still starting."
The parent next to him replied "Everyone has a bad game. Last game I think that kid went 3-3 and 2-3 before that. Truth is he's probably got the highest average on the team. Besides, he can go 0-3 if he keeps making plays like he's making in the field."
Perception.
The only times I have ever witnessed a Coach knowingly sit a better player? It had to do with the player's attitude or grades, or the kid's parents had ticked the Coach off.
quote:Originally posted by fanofgame:
This statement couldn't be more true.Some coaches look at different skills as more valuable.BUT with that said in the end almost every time the coach will come back around to the hitters, if others aren't producing.
Yes...if you can HIT, a Coach will always be inclined to find a way to get your bat in the line up.
I always believed the better players played---until it happend to my son 
. It does exist Coach May has been a God-send with his wonderful advice to help me help my son thru a difficult jr year. He was never given an opportunity to show how good of pitcher he is (3 innings all year both times in games we were losing 7-0) while 2 soph and freshmen were promoted over him. He is a rhp---all our starters are lhp--he has done very well in summer ball agianst many 18U teams at college tournaments with a 2.33 era has several D111 schools asking about him his high gpa and act helps----I would think he was at worst good enough to get a look see in beggining of year to see how he would do-maybe 1 start before promoting underclassmen over him---oh they have not been lights out I would say they are very good for soph level ball--get rocked when we face real varsity teams and walk way to many (my son avg 1 walk per 7ip). I am sure many who read this will see sour-grapes---same ones usally whose soph kid was promoted over my boy . Its difficult to say work harder when he got up at 5am all winter--has worked 11 months of year since he was 12. when you tell him he will get his chance---3 innings!!!!!! Thankfully summer ball will be here soon. I am battling keeping quiet--walking laps around field when frustrated--trying to be cheerful around other parents. Coach May has given me some of best advice I've ever gotten--God has everything happen for a reason and he knows more then I do thats for sure. I wont even get into the fielding or hitting (hit 410 over summer--have 2 maybe 3 kids over 300 on hs team--oops 
). I think most coaches are great and try to be fair as possible. Some think its all about them--the I word has no place for a hs coach.
. It does exist Coach May has been a God-send with his wonderful advice to help me help my son thru a difficult jr year. He was never given an opportunity to show how good of pitcher he is (3 innings all year both times in games we were losing 7-0) while 2 soph and freshmen were promoted over him. He is a rhp---all our starters are lhp--he has done very well in summer ball agianst many 18U teams at college tournaments with a 2.33 era has several D111 schools asking about him his high gpa and act helps----I would think he was at worst good enough to get a look see in beggining of year to see how he would do-maybe 1 start before promoting underclassmen over him---oh they have not been lights out I would say they are very good for soph level ball--get rocked when we face real varsity teams and walk way to many (my son avg 1 walk per 7ip). I am sure many who read this will see sour-grapes---same ones usally whose soph kid was promoted over my boy . Its difficult to say work harder when he got up at 5am all winter--has worked 11 months of year since he was 12. when you tell him he will get his chance---3 innings!!!!!! Thankfully summer ball will be here soon. I am battling keeping quiet--walking laps around field when frustrated--trying to be cheerful around other parents. Coach May has given me some of best advice I've ever gotten--God has everything happen for a reason and he knows more then I do thats for sure. I wont even get into the fielding or hitting (hit 410 over summer--have 2 maybe 3 kids over 300 on hs team--oops
I suppose that our perceptions of coaches and playing time are as biased and prejudiced as those of the coaches who make the decisions. There are good and even great coaches who would promote almost exclusively on merit. There are really bad coaches who play favorites regardless of merit. And there are players who play or don't play, and parents of both, who believe in or don't believe in the coach's integrity in making his decisions.
The bottom line for me is what I have observed, and continue to observe, in youth and HS sports. Connections, favoritism, and irrational prejudices influence PT decisions in more cases than not. I have seen it on dozens of teams over 30 years. I am trying to think of a single team on which these were not the primary factors, at least in any close call (Timmy hits .290 and has a .950 fielding percentage while Tommy hits .295 and has a .948 fielding percentage), and I cannot think of a one. And, what is worse, is that usually markedly better players often sit behind those with the connections or who are coaches favorites. EVERY TEAM.
I believe that anyone who thinks that this is not prevalent in HS sports is either living in some sort of other-world paradise, or he is in denial. My guess is that there is no other-world paradise here on Earth, so these folks are deceiving themselves. Why? Probably because they are parents of the Timmys of the world--the ones who get the benefits of favoritism.
Now, all of that said, the single best outcome in all of this is that those who get cheated out of any sort of merit-based opportunity are learning incredibly valuable lessons about how people will step on you your whole life if it benefits them or their own. They can use this lesson to either get on the right side of their futures. While Timmy is being given the gift of playing baseball when he does not deserve it, John is learning that, in the future, he is going to be on the right side of the favoritism equation and stomp on Timmy and his ilk later in life. Spoiled children can survive only if their spoiling parents continue to prop them up. Not so the kids who get kicked to the side of the road in this process--they see what is happening and double-down on their investment in winning later on.
Call me a cynic. I believe I am a realist--a completely honest realist.
The bottom line for me is what I have observed, and continue to observe, in youth and HS sports. Connections, favoritism, and irrational prejudices influence PT decisions in more cases than not. I have seen it on dozens of teams over 30 years. I am trying to think of a single team on which these were not the primary factors, at least in any close call (Timmy hits .290 and has a .950 fielding percentage while Tommy hits .295 and has a .948 fielding percentage), and I cannot think of a one. And, what is worse, is that usually markedly better players often sit behind those with the connections or who are coaches favorites. EVERY TEAM.
I believe that anyone who thinks that this is not prevalent in HS sports is either living in some sort of other-world paradise, or he is in denial. My guess is that there is no other-world paradise here on Earth, so these folks are deceiving themselves. Why? Probably because they are parents of the Timmys of the world--the ones who get the benefits of favoritism.
Now, all of that said, the single best outcome in all of this is that those who get cheated out of any sort of merit-based opportunity are learning incredibly valuable lessons about how people will step on you your whole life if it benefits them or their own. They can use this lesson to either get on the right side of their futures. While Timmy is being given the gift of playing baseball when he does not deserve it, John is learning that, in the future, he is going to be on the right side of the favoritism equation and stomp on Timmy and his ilk later in life. Spoiled children can survive only if their spoiling parents continue to prop them up. Not so the kids who get kicked to the side of the road in this process--they see what is happening and double-down on their investment in winning later on.
Call me a cynic. I believe I am a realist--a completely honest realist.
So, would it be safe to assume that your son is not named Timmy?
That's funny Coach May
Issac I think it's a pretty safe bet you or your son was at one point a victim of what you perceive as someone playing over you or your son due to politics and favortism. It might be true or it might not but I think it's very insulting that you lump most teams / coaches into one category with...
This statement is truly insulting to me and all the coaches who don't play favorites. Have you seen how I run my team or how Coach May runs his team? Do you know how all the coaches in California, Texas, Rhode Island or Louisiana run their teams. You just made a blanket statement with absolutely no way of backing it up. This hurts your credibility.
The problem with saying a coach plays favorites is anybody can do it. Whether it's legitimate or not anybody can say it and sadly there are those who will believe it. You said Timmy is given the privilege of playing while John doesn't although John is a better player. Well what if John is lazy, terrible team mate, uncoachable, skips practice, doesn't work in school or other stuff? Those are the things people don't see or factor in. Timmy may have earned the playing time due to the fact he shows up and does his job. He might not be the best at it but you can rely on him. There are all kinds of reasons what factors into a kid not playing but most people don't take the time to find out what's truly going on. Nobody bothers to ask because they go straight to rumor spreading.
There are politics at play and they do exist but only thing you can do is show up and do your job. Griping and complaining won't solve it but you owe it to yourself to work hard and keep fighting.
Issac I think it's a pretty safe bet you or your son was at one point a victim of what you perceive as someone playing over you or your son due to politics and favortism. It might be true or it might not but I think it's very insulting that you lump most teams / coaches into one category with...
quote:I believe that anyone who thinks that this is not prevalent in HS sports is either living in some sort of other-world paradise, or he is in denial. My guess is that there is no other-world paradise here on Earth, so these folks are deceiving themselves. Why? Probably because they are parents of the Timmys of the world--the ones who get the benefits of favoritism.
This statement is truly insulting to me and all the coaches who don't play favorites. Have you seen how I run my team or how Coach May runs his team? Do you know how all the coaches in California, Texas, Rhode Island or Louisiana run their teams. You just made a blanket statement with absolutely no way of backing it up. This hurts your credibility.
The problem with saying a coach plays favorites is anybody can do it. Whether it's legitimate or not anybody can say it and sadly there are those who will believe it. You said Timmy is given the privilege of playing while John doesn't although John is a better player. Well what if John is lazy, terrible team mate, uncoachable, skips practice, doesn't work in school or other stuff? Those are the things people don't see or factor in. Timmy may have earned the playing time due to the fact he shows up and does his job. He might not be the best at it but you can rely on him. There are all kinds of reasons what factors into a kid not playing but most people don't take the time to find out what's truly going on. Nobody bothers to ask because they go straight to rumor spreading.
There are politics at play and they do exist but only thing you can do is show up and do your job. Griping and complaining won't solve it but you owe it to yourself to work hard and keep fighting.
Long story short?
Life isn’t fair. Sometimes the better person won’t come out on top. The minute you start to blame your situation on something or someone else, you have become part of the problem, not the solution.
I’ve had bosses that could barely keep from drooling on themselves. In these cases, I didn’t do the firing or the hiring, so that was out of my control.
I did my best not to worry about it. Not saying it was, or is, easy, it’s not. But it’s wasted effort to worry over something you cannot change directly.
What I did do is focus on MY job. Eventually those type of people who are over their heads, WILL fail. And it’s just a matter of documentation, work ethic, and being smarter than the other guy to get where you need to be.
Each situation is a just a step on the journey. Whether it’s baseball, work or whatever it may be.
I know plenty of people who got frustrated with a situation, and moved on or quit. I know others who kept at it, kept their eye on the prize and stopped worrying about things they couldn’t change right then.
I’m not saying that there aren’t bad situations when it comes to HS sports. Surely they do exist. It’s unfortunate, but it’s part of life. It’s hard for players to deal with and it can be even harder sometimes for parents to deal with. It’s part of life.
It took me a long time to accept this. I distinctly remember the day it happened. I was in the military at the time. I realized I could focus on ME and my JOB, and do my best, not letting ANYTHING interfere with that goal. What I realized is that when you put that effort into something you CAN CHANGE, the other things don’t seem so important anymore, you don’t have time to worry about them.
If a player's goal is to play baseball at the next level, success or even playing time at the HS level is not the deciding factor...only if the player lets it define them.
I personally know a guy who never stepped on the HS field until late in his SR year, and then only because of an injury to another player.
That guy ended up playing college ball, and played several years in the minors before injury forced him to move on.
We talked about his experience one time, he mentioned that life puts obstacles in your path all the time. You only have a few options to deal with those obstacles.
STOP.
Go around.
Go through.
The choice is yours.
Life isn’t fair. Sometimes the better person won’t come out on top. The minute you start to blame your situation on something or someone else, you have become part of the problem, not the solution.
I’ve had bosses that could barely keep from drooling on themselves. In these cases, I didn’t do the firing or the hiring, so that was out of my control.
I did my best not to worry about it. Not saying it was, or is, easy, it’s not. But it’s wasted effort to worry over something you cannot change directly.
What I did do is focus on MY job. Eventually those type of people who are over their heads, WILL fail. And it’s just a matter of documentation, work ethic, and being smarter than the other guy to get where you need to be.
Each situation is a just a step on the journey. Whether it’s baseball, work or whatever it may be.
I know plenty of people who got frustrated with a situation, and moved on or quit. I know others who kept at it, kept their eye on the prize and stopped worrying about things they couldn’t change right then.
I’m not saying that there aren’t bad situations when it comes to HS sports. Surely they do exist. It’s unfortunate, but it’s part of life. It’s hard for players to deal with and it can be even harder sometimes for parents to deal with. It’s part of life.
It took me a long time to accept this. I distinctly remember the day it happened. I was in the military at the time. I realized I could focus on ME and my JOB, and do my best, not letting ANYTHING interfere with that goal. What I realized is that when you put that effort into something you CAN CHANGE, the other things don’t seem so important anymore, you don’t have time to worry about them.
If a player's goal is to play baseball at the next level, success or even playing time at the HS level is not the deciding factor...only if the player lets it define them.
I personally know a guy who never stepped on the HS field until late in his SR year, and then only because of an injury to another player.
That guy ended up playing college ball, and played several years in the minors before injury forced him to move on.
We talked about his experience one time, he mentioned that life puts obstacles in your path all the time. You only have a few options to deal with those obstacles.
STOP.
Go around.
Go through.
The choice is yours.
quote:Originally posted by isaacvanwart:
I suppose that our perceptions of coaches and playing time are as biased and prejudiced as those of the coaches who make the decisions. There are good and even great coaches who would promote almost exclusively on merit. There are really bad coaches who play favorites regardless of merit. And there are players who play or don't play, and parents of both, who believe in or don't believe in the coach's integrity in making his decisions.
The bottom line for me is what I have observed, and continue to observe, in youth and HS sports. Connections, favoritism, and irrational prejudices influence PT decisions in more cases than not. I have seen it on dozens of teams over 30 years. I am trying to think of a single team on which these were not the primary factors, at least in any close call (Timmy hits .290 and has a .950 fielding percentage while Tommy hits .295 and has a .948 fielding percentage), and I cannot think of a one. And, what is worse, is that usually markedly better players often sit behind those with the connections or who are coaches favorites. EVERY TEAM.
I believe that anyone who thinks that this is not prevalent in HS sports is either living in some sort of other-world paradise, or he is in denial. My guess is that there is no other-world paradise here on Earth, so these folks are deceiving themselves. Why? Probably because they are parents of the Timmys of the world--the ones who get the benefits of favoritism.
Now, all of that said, the single best outcome in all of this is that those who get cheated out of any sort of merit-based opportunity are learning incredibly valuable lessons about how people will step on you your whole life if it benefits them or their own. They can use this lesson to either get on the right side of their futures. While Timmy is being given the gift of playing baseball when he does not deserve it, John is learning that, in the future, he is going to be on the right side of the favoritism equation and stomp on Timmy and his ilk later in life. Spoiled children can survive only if their spoiling parents continue to prop them up. Not so the kids who get kicked to the side of the road in this process--they see what is happening and double-down on their investment in winning later on.
Call me a cynic. I believe I am a realist--a completely honest realist.
The problem is people like you that always believe something else is up. I have heard from 2 different parents that I am "playing favorites" this year. These 2 parents are friends. The starters at their positions are both 2012's. One of them has division one interest. The other is going to be a college level player. The two claiming "favoritism" are hitting below .250 on the JV.
My "favoritism" is playing the best players.
Can only comment on what I have observed - 32 seasons of "rec ball" (spring and fall for 2 sons) - 7 seasons of "all-stars" - 9 years of travel ball spanning 3 primary teams and 5 or 6 guest play experiences - and 3 seasons of high school ball. I can only think of 3 seasons/teams where decisions on playing time were not influenced by non-merit based factors. 2 notes - I consider hustle - attitute - coachability - and the like to be merit based AND my son had always played and I have never coached so this is not sour grapes.
Now, the issues varied from minor to unbelievable - but most of the time there were kids getting or not getting playing time for reasons that were unrelated to merit.
I believe that there are many great coaches out there and many terrible coaches. I think most coaches fall somewhere in the middle and you make the most of the situation you are in for as long as you are there. There are life lessons to be learned from terrible coaches / bad teams / and unfair treatment. Parents are responsible for helping their sons learn these lessons.
Now, the issues varied from minor to unbelievable - but most of the time there were kids getting or not getting playing time for reasons that were unrelated to merit.
I believe that there are many great coaches out there and many terrible coaches. I think most coaches fall somewhere in the middle and you make the most of the situation you are in for as long as you are there. There are life lessons to be learned from terrible coaches / bad teams / and unfair treatment. Parents are responsible for helping their sons learn these lessons.
Isaac and YesReally,
By nature, the vast majority of HS coaches have the same primary objectives, not necessarily in this order...
1. Win baseball games.
2. Conduct a program that requires things like proper attitude, effort, dedication, teamwork, respect, behavior, etc. (that hopefully results in winning baseball games)
These coaches have bosses (AD) that basically have those same objectives in mind for the coach. Both objectives (and keeping their job) can only be achieved by playing the best players and factoring in attitude, effort, dedication, respect, behavior, etc. To think that the majority of coaches operate otherwise is very slanted and unrealistic thinking, IMO.
I coach both HS and club ball and follow the players who have played for me whenever I can. So, I see a ton of baseball and know and see a ton of coaches and parents in action. It is not uncommon for us parents to have a perception that our sons are a bit better than they really are – human nature, really. I have encountered a handful of parents who think along the same lines that you two do. Frankly, it has been my experience that, in every one of these instances, that perception gap is just larger. Sorry, that's just my honest experience. (YesReally, I understand that you state otherwise for your situation with your son playing regularly).
I’ve been watching our area varsity scene (almost 20 teams) closely for the last 4 years and know most of the players’ skill sets. As I observe game after game, whether it be our opponent or two other teams, I see the best players on the field, period. When I notice one is not, I am always able to inquire with a fan or player and get a quick answer (injury, eligibility, etc.) as to why they are not. When one of my club players isn’t starting for his HS team, I can usually see exactly what skill set is setting the two apart. Are there situational exceptions? Yes. Is there an occasional political undertone? Sure. But these are definitely exceptions, not the rule as you would imply.
Another poster had it exactly right... yes, there is favoritism for PT – coaches favor the best players with the best attitude and effort.
Now, I will concede that sometimes, when you get to the bottom spot or two in the lineup, you could almost flip a coin between that player and the next on the bench. I will also concede that sometimes, the best player will play even without the best attitude. Now, those would make for more interesting and difficult issues to debate IMO.
By nature, the vast majority of HS coaches have the same primary objectives, not necessarily in this order...
1. Win baseball games.
2. Conduct a program that requires things like proper attitude, effort, dedication, teamwork, respect, behavior, etc. (that hopefully results in winning baseball games)
These coaches have bosses (AD) that basically have those same objectives in mind for the coach. Both objectives (and keeping their job) can only be achieved by playing the best players and factoring in attitude, effort, dedication, respect, behavior, etc. To think that the majority of coaches operate otherwise is very slanted and unrealistic thinking, IMO.
I coach both HS and club ball and follow the players who have played for me whenever I can. So, I see a ton of baseball and know and see a ton of coaches and parents in action. It is not uncommon for us parents to have a perception that our sons are a bit better than they really are – human nature, really. I have encountered a handful of parents who think along the same lines that you two do. Frankly, it has been my experience that, in every one of these instances, that perception gap is just larger. Sorry, that's just my honest experience. (YesReally, I understand that you state otherwise for your situation with your son playing regularly).
I’ve been watching our area varsity scene (almost 20 teams) closely for the last 4 years and know most of the players’ skill sets. As I observe game after game, whether it be our opponent or two other teams, I see the best players on the field, period. When I notice one is not, I am always able to inquire with a fan or player and get a quick answer (injury, eligibility, etc.) as to why they are not. When one of my club players isn’t starting for his HS team, I can usually see exactly what skill set is setting the two apart. Are there situational exceptions? Yes. Is there an occasional political undertone? Sure. But these are definitely exceptions, not the rule as you would imply.
Another poster had it exactly right... yes, there is favoritism for PT – coaches favor the best players with the best attitude and effort.
Now, I will concede that sometimes, when you get to the bottom spot or two in the lineup, you could almost flip a coin between that player and the next on the bench. I will also concede that sometimes, the best player will play even without the best attitude. Now, those would make for more interesting and difficult issues to debate IMO.
quote:My son is struggling this year. He is starting on JV as a sophomore, and sitting on the varsity bench. The challenge is that there's a freshman starting on varsity in his position. There isn't an obvious difference between them as best that I can tell, other than my son can hit better.
Maybe the coach sees something I don't recognize, either due to his experience or lack of bias. Or maybe the coach is wrong. But in any event, I see this as a gut check time for my son. I've suggested to him that he needs to work harder between now and next season if he wants to get that spot on varsity.
UPDATE: I had THE discussion with my son. Suggested that he contemplate his attitude (too laid back) and get more aggressive, go after the starting spot, work hard every practice to win time, play with confidence whenever he gets a chance. Guess what? He's gotten some innings on varsity when a month ago he wasn't getting a look. Coach says boy have you improved. Honestly, all the kid did was ratchet up his intensity, work a little harder, keep his head in the game when on the bench, and practice on his own. When his number was called, he played with confidence and determination.
Couldn't find anyone to practice with, so he went up to the field with a bucket of balls and hit off the tee. He threw the ball into the backstop because there was no one to play catch with. Now we will see if he gets a varsity start before the season is over, but either way, he has seen the difference his attitude makes in how he is treated by others.
If you want your circumstances to change, start by changing your attitude.
I would like to congratulate Coach May and Coach2709 on being above any sort of politics or favoritism. They are shining examples of aliens, since no human beings I have ever met in my life are above such challenges. To stand out as perfect is quite an achievement, so again, Congratulations!
Now, I'm with those who believe that the favoritism is out of control with MANY (NOT ALL!) coaches. I have seen it in basketball, football, s****r, lacrosse, and baseball, boys and girls, HS and Club. Favoritism is way more probable than not at all levels. I have been a coach of several of these sports at several levels, including competitive Club levels. I ADMIT that I showed favoritism and regret very little of it. But I was the opposite of the coaches that Isaac describes. I favored the kids that came to practice and went 100%, those who helped other players who were not doing well, those who did now squawk if they sat game one of the DH, and that sort of thing. I would show them favoritism over the Timmys of the world. The Timmys were in my dog house.
Isaac has it right, though, that if Timmy's dad takes care of the field, or does the Club team's finances, or brings in a few wealthy donors to help pay the way, in most cases Timmy does well in spite of Timmy's athletic challenges.
Human nature mandates that we favor some over others. It simply is reality. Unfortunately, it is the basis of the favoritism sometimes gets skewed so that there is no merit involved--it is all about politics and money.
Now, I'm with those who believe that the favoritism is out of control with MANY (NOT ALL!) coaches. I have seen it in basketball, football, s****r, lacrosse, and baseball, boys and girls, HS and Club. Favoritism is way more probable than not at all levels. I have been a coach of several of these sports at several levels, including competitive Club levels. I ADMIT that I showed favoritism and regret very little of it. But I was the opposite of the coaches that Isaac describes. I favored the kids that came to practice and went 100%, those who helped other players who were not doing well, those who did now squawk if they sat game one of the DH, and that sort of thing. I would show them favoritism over the Timmys of the world. The Timmys were in my dog house.
Isaac has it right, though, that if Timmy's dad takes care of the field, or does the Club team's finances, or brings in a few wealthy donors to help pay the way, in most cases Timmy does well in spite of Timmy's athletic challenges.
Human nature mandates that we favor some over others. It simply is reality. Unfortunately, it is the basis of the favoritism sometimes gets skewed so that there is no merit involved--it is all about politics and money.
If Isaac and Rhobbs are right and all coaches show favoritism, coaching would be the easiest profession in the world.
I mean, if all the opposing coaches have their best players on the bench, a coach who broke the mold and actually threw his best ones out on the field should be able to clean up.
Amazing that no coaches anywhere in the world ever thought of this simple strategy.
Now that Isaac and Rhobbs have identified this inefficiency, maybe some coach somewhere will actually try to win his games instead of pleasing his friends and sponsors and helpers. I hope it's not too late to copyright it, guys.
P.S., Rhobbs, did you and Isaac go to the same school? You have very similar writing styles, so I thought maybe you had the same teachers.
I mean, if all the opposing coaches have their best players on the bench, a coach who broke the mold and actually threw his best ones out on the field should be able to clean up.
Amazing that no coaches anywhere in the world ever thought of this simple strategy.
Now that Isaac and Rhobbs have identified this inefficiency, maybe some coach somewhere will actually try to win his games instead of pleasing his friends and sponsors and helpers. I hope it's not too late to copyright it, guys.
P.S., Rhobbs, did you and Isaac go to the same school? You have very similar writing styles, so I thought maybe you had the same teachers.
Ah sarcasm--one of my favorites 
. Yeah I think many programs win despite the coaching because they have talented well coached kids from summerball teams . And I also believe many win because of excellent coaching with inferior talent. Were coaches land is in the eye of the beholder. I would love if ever bad coach who does favor kids could have a kid who goes thru a sports program were there kid is on the short end of stick see how it feels as a parent to see your kid get cheated out of there only highschool sports experience because of politics or favoritism--Ah if only life was fair
. Yeah I think many programs win despite the coaching because they have talented well coached kids from summerball teams . And I also believe many win because of excellent coaching with inferior talent. Were coaches land is in the eye of the beholder. I would love if ever bad coach who does favor kids could have a kid who goes thru a sports program were there kid is on the short end of stick see how it feels as a parent to see your kid get cheated out of there only highschool sports experience because of politics or favoritism--Ah if only life was fair
You know there are times we are all tested. And there are times when its just best to let things go. This is one of those times.
So all of you crying favoritism...I have one question for you. Would you badmouth the coach in front of your sons?
If you do, then there is a part of the "formula" that you are missing that the coach uses to make his decisions. It's no wonder you don't think he's being fair and are crying favoritism. My original post was not whether or not there is favoritism from coaches. It was about parents ruining their players by teaching their sons not to respect the coach. If your mom or dad has no respect for your coach, how do you think you are going to play in practice? How do you think your attitude is going to be in the dugout? How do you think your attitude is going to effect the team? THAT is what the coach sees and THAT is why your son is not playing.
So you are right. He is playing favorites. He's favoring the kids that have better attitudes and show him (and the team) respect. Sometimes, unfortunately, he has to decide to sit a better skilled player because they fail in other areas. Don't let that kid by your son.
If you do, then there is a part of the "formula" that you are missing that the coach uses to make his decisions. It's no wonder you don't think he's being fair and are crying favoritism. My original post was not whether or not there is favoritism from coaches. It was about parents ruining their players by teaching their sons not to respect the coach. If your mom or dad has no respect for your coach, how do you think you are going to play in practice? How do you think your attitude is going to be in the dugout? How do you think your attitude is going to effect the team? THAT is what the coach sees and THAT is why your son is not playing.
So you are right. He is playing favorites. He's favoring the kids that have better attitudes and show him (and the team) respect. Sometimes, unfortunately, he has to decide to sit a better skilled player because they fail in other areas. Don't let that kid by your son.
quote:Maybe the coach sees something I don't recognize, either due to his experience or lack of bias.
bingo!!!!!