Perfect Game Grading System

gutsnglory posted:

A friend of mine recently attended a Perfect Game showcase, and I am looking to attend one this summer. I looked on his page and saw they graded him out as a 7 (for those who don't know, a 7 is "Potential low round pick, D1 prospect or top level JUCO". But knowing him and looking at the metrics they recorded for him, and the fact that we are a similar talent level but neither of us have much D1 interest let alone draft interest, I dont know where they got this grade. My question is, does perfect game NOT give bad grades? will they give me a courtesy 6-7 for attending or do they actually give out 1-3s?

He paid for the rating. That’s what the product is. You pay PG $600-700 bucks, their crack team of scouts give you a number. That number only means something to parents, kids and PG. Exclusively.

GaryMe posted:

gutsnglory posted:

A friend of mine recently attended a Perfect Game showcase, and I am looking to attend one this summer. I looked on his page and saw they graded him out as a 7 (for those who don't know, a 7 is "Potential low round pick, D1 prospect or top level JUCO". But knowing him and looking at the metrics they recorded for him, and the fact that we are a similar talent level but neither of us have much D1 interest let alone draft interest, I dont know where they got this grade. My question is, does perfect game NOT give bad grades? will they give me a courtesy 6-7 for attending or do they actually give out 1-3s?

He paid for the rating. That’s what the product is. You pay PG $600-700 bucks, their crack team of scouts give you a number. That number only means something to parents, kids and PG. Exclusively.

Don't think that that is quite true.  While the grade is not a perfect indicator of the future, I can say that within days of receiving a good grade and write up that my son received a handful of initial emails from colleges.  To the OP: I have not seen a grade of lower than 6.5, but that could be the result of self selection (only good players pay the money to go).

PG allows the player the option of not having a 6.5 or lower recorded.

A bad PG Grade will not hurt, however a good PG Grade will help.

PG's Grading system I think is fairly valid; the numbers part.  The accompanying explanations for each numeric grade I believe are useless and flat out silly.  The 1-10 scale of applied numbers, when studied across a large sample of players (Top 5Rd draft picks to "the game is too dangerous") I find is dead on.  

Back when PG first offered this service, the scale (I believe) was 1-6 ("6" being best).  At some point in the past twelve years (?) they recalibrated their scale to a 1-10 model.  I believe the change was made so as to have a correlation with velocity recordings.  Ie. if a kid throws 75mph off the mound he is headed for a PG Grade of 7.5.  Factors then that can sway a kid .5 up, or down, then are 60-time (sub 7 = plus .5 to 8.0, conversely an 8+ sixty = minus .5 to 7.0, etc.)  I'm confidant the above observations hold a lot of water.  For position players, I still think the velo reading at the event is still the core; 82 mph across the infield means the kid will start with an 8.0, then a maximum of 1.0 to 1.5 will possibly be added to the 8.0 if the kid is a 6.7 runner, and puts 2-3 out at JetBlue during BP, or conversely may be deducted.   The age/grad year I believe is also factored in to the "fudge factor points" (60, BP,).  The younger the kid the more generous, but if you're a Jr., summer before Sr year?  Not much fudging or projecting on your score really, unless they still see a "lot of projection remaining."  

So, do they give out 1-3s?  I've never seen it.  Lowest I've seen, in this "modern era of PG Ratings" (the 1-10 era)?  Six.  

I can't see a marginal player's family shelling out that kind of $. I have seen many clueless at different tryouts but once $ is involved the filter is pretty good.

2022NYC posted:

I can't see a marginal player's family shelling out that kind of $. I have seen many clueless at different tryouts but once $ is involved the filter is pretty good.

Not an expert on PG's grading system, but I agree.  If your kid is throwing 78 mph off mound or across infield and runs a 7:5 sixty, he's looking at a 7.5 grade.  It's that simple.

If your kid throws 86 off mound or from OF, and he runs a 7.2, and he's a soph or Jr.  you're looking at a 8.5 grade (ballpark). 

Anything less than 8.5, will not move the needle much in your recruitment for many levels of programs.   

Free market principals at work here.  If you can post a quality grade (8.5 or higher) it can help your recruitment for the appropriate target schools, serving as a valid reference.  If not, probably best to save your money.  As Fenway says, "JMO."

Son never did a PG or any "scouting service" showcase.  I never saw the value.  I would rather him play.  He did camps at schools that were structured like a showcase, but that's it.  If your kid is going to be a freshman/sophomore, look around at local JC's or small colleges close to you if they have a "showcase" style camp.  Before signing up, ask do they give you the metrics from the camp if you are looking for measurement of where he is.

Son did a $125 camp at Sam Houston State a year and a half ago.  They handed him below.  That was grade enough to let us know where he was at the time.

I would gladly pay a c-note and half just to have my kid spend a few mins hearing Coach Deggs speak.

Son is going to the 14U National Showcase in Fort Myers this summer. 

This year PG started having regional 14U showcases where you could qualify for Fort Myers (and  attend at a reduced price if selected). 

So we've been sort of monitoring what kids in other parts of the country are doing at these regionals. 

For the most part, it seems to me that there are a lot of kids going to the event to get a grade (or their dad wants to get them a grade).........and those grades are usually 6.0-7.5 (and their numbers back these up 65mph, 8+ 60's, BP swings that are for a better word "fixable").  Only about 10% receive anything above a 8.0, and there have been very few 9.0/9.5's given out (no 10's).

14's getting the better grades are low 80's from the IF, OF, or bump and around 7.2 or below (depending upon position.......MIF and OF lower, corner's higher) and have decent BP.

For the most part it seems accurate.  There have been some outliers (maybe performed better in game situation), but over all ok.

I still struggle with some of the kids that travel a long way to receive a 6 or a 6.5.  Save $ and use on training (but I actually think that some Dad's want to tell their friends "my kid went to a PG showcase", and then that turns into "they don't know what they are doing, there is no way he's a 6.5".

gutsnglory posted:

A friend of mine recently attended a Perfect Game showcase, and I am looking to attend one this summer. I looked on his page and saw they graded him out as a 7 (for those who don't know, a 7 is "Potential low round pick, D1 prospect or top level JUCO". But knowing him and looking at the metrics they recorded for him, and the fact that we are a similar talent level but neither of us have much D1 interest let alone draft interest, I dont know where they got this grade. My question is, does perfect game NOT give bad grades? will they give me a courtesy 6-7 for attending or do they actually give out 1-3s?

Despite what one poster implies, PG is widely considered the most prominent, recognized and followed organization in the business and has great value in the right situation.  On the other hand, I agree with #1 Assistant that the accompanying explanations for each numeric grade are useless.  The relative accuracy as a comparison number, however, is usually quite good.  The majority of college (and pro) recruiters use PG in one form or another and the numbers do translate into something meaningful to them.  

If you are likely to rate out at a 7, doing a PG event probably won't help you a whole lot directly from a recruiting standpoint (there are certainly some variables here).  I think PGStaff would even tell you so.  If it is one of their established events, it will likely attract a very good pool of players and give you a great snapshot of what you are competing against in your recruiting efforts.   It will also give you experience, albeit expensive, in what a true showcase environment is like.  There may be better ways to spend that money, depending on where you stand and what your objectives are with finding the right school.

What year are you?  And, to answer your other question, you won't see many grades below 6.5, an occasional 6 maybe.

Going to a PG event and getting a 7 isn't going to help a lot. The 7 isn’t an in the moment score. It’s how you're projected as you approach college. There are less expensive venues for getting measurables (sixty, velocity, bat speed, etc.)

What year are you? Have you sat with a coach and discussed your potential baseball future? Do you have a business plan on how to mix the right college academic and baseball environment? 

There are a lot of people on this site who can help.

I think there is tremendous weight behind a "10", great weight behind a "9", considerable weight behind an "8" at which point it kind of falls off somewhat.  I know PG tells folks not to attend a showcase if there is nothing to showcase, but I'm thinking 6's are handed out when they are politely telling the kid that they don't have much talent (5 is potential HS varsity) and 7's are sort of the default for the vast majority (as the vast majority of showcase attendees will congregate in this range of skills).

I think going the a PG showcase and getting a 7 early on is a great thing, assuming there is essentially zero trade off (i.e. the money and/or time does not take away from training/practice/playing opportunities).  

The thing you see repeated here a lot is "don't showcase until you have something to showcase" and I think that and "focus on getting bigger stronger faster" is the the best advice I've seen.

With today's technology it is extremely easy to figure out what my son's 60 time, exit velocity and throwing velocity is, on our own.  Once his measureables hit a certain point, we'll have him attend a Perfect Game showcase, not before.

2022NYC posted:

I can't see a marginal player's family shelling out that kind of $. I have seen many clueless at different tryouts but once $ is involved the filter is pretty good.

Have you been to one of these things? There are a ton of kid’s families shelling out the dough to attend who will never even see the field on varsity in high school. PG has not interest in being selective on who attends the “open cattle call” events, because it’s EASY MONEY!!!

GaryMe posted:

2022NYC posted:

I can't see a marginal player's family shelling out that kind of $. I have seen many clueless at different tryouts but once $ is involved the filter is pretty good.

Have you been to one of these things? There are a ton of kid’s families shelling out the dough to attend who will never even see the field on varsity in high school. PG has not interest in being selective on who attends the “open cattle call” events, because it’s EASY MONEY!!!

Yes, I have been to several, Gary, as well as being very familiar with other organizations in the space.  Yes, they are a business and yes, it is certainly the goal of most businesses to make a profit.  With respect, I don't believe you know the people, principals and purpose of the PG organization.  The founder is/was a regular poster here and has told many not to attend one of their events, that it wasn't for them.  He has said outright many times, if you don't have something to show (with clear implication being something exceptional to show), you shouldn't pay and shouldn't attend.  Not too many businesses conduct themselves that way.  He has also helped countless who couldn't afford the price.  His background, purpose and motivation speaks for itself if you care to take the time to research it.  Yes, there are families who are misguided, thinking it is the right event to attend, but that poor guidance usually comes from outside sources in combination with rose colored glasses.  Most of the established PG events feature primarily very good players as the majority of attendees.  

I don't want to turn this into another whole PG bash/praise thread but PG is the clear gold standard in the showcase event arena and the founder is as upstanding and straight forward a guy as you will ever want to meet.  We should probably stick to trying to help this particular poster with what it can or cannot do for him specifically.  In his particular case, it probably isn't the right event, depending on what he is trying to accomplish or experience.

GaryMe posted:

2022NYC posted:

I can't see a marginal player's family shelling out that kind of $. I have seen many clueless at different tryouts but once $ is involved the filter is pretty good.

Have you been to one of these things? There are a ton of kid’s families shelling out the dough to attend who will never even see the field on varsity in high school. PG has not interest in being selective on who attends the “open cattle call” events, because it’s EASY MONEY!!!

How can PG be selective?  Should they have a pre-showcase showcase to weed out those who don't belong?  

Goin_yard posted:

GaryMe posted:

2022NYC posted:

I can't see a marginal player's family shelling out that kind of $. I have seen many clueless at different tryouts but once $ is involved the filter is pretty good.

Have you been to one of these things? There are a ton of kid’s families shelling out the dough to attend who will never even see the field on varsity in high school. PG has not interest in being selective on who attends the “open cattle call” events, because it’s EASY MONEY!!!

How can PG be selective?  Should they have a pre-showcase showcase to weed out those who don't belong?  

Maybe we should start a business called Pre-PG........charge $200 to let you know if your son should go to PG and do some sort of refund if he is good enough, otherwise we saved you $400+travel.

Goin_yard posted:

GaryMe posted:

2022NYC posted:

I can't see a marginal player's family shelling out that kind of $. I have seen many clueless at different tryouts but once $ is involved the filter is pretty good.

Have you been to one of these things? There are a ton of kid’s families shelling out the dough to attend who will never even see the field on varsity in high school. PG has not interest in being selective on who attends the “open cattle call” events, because it’s EASY MONEY!!!

How can PG be selective?  Should they have a pre-showcase showcase to weed out those who don't belong?  

I was about to post the exact same thing.  Is it PG's job to be selective as to who can do business with them based on a talent assessment that has not yet been done?  Should they refund the parent's money if the kid proves to not be very good?

You type faster than I do Russ. 

PG and other top showcase events give the player/parents one tool in the evaluation of your son.  Don't fixate too much on the grade and whether it predicts how well your son will play at the next level.  Take this experience to see how other top players excel compared to son.  Your son may be a top player on his high school team but compared to elite talent he may/may not stack up.  If you choose to do multiple PG events use these grades to improve and show progress.  A good grade will definitely help but not set in stone.  My son as a jr received a PG grade of 8.  Recruited and went to a D1 school.  After 3 years with multiple accolades including POY, All Americans, etc.  1st round draft pick MLB.  Don't let a score (good or bad) influence your ability at the next level.  Instead use it to improve on those areas that lacking.  Play as many showcase events and camps as you financially can.  There is a tremendous amount of pressure the player experiences knowing they have to do well in a 1 or 2 day event.  The more events they play in, the more they will get accustomed to the format and expectations, thus when the important big events come around, it will be nothing new and hopefully less pressure.

If you choose to do multiple PG events use these grades to improve and show progress.

I agree with CABBAGEDAD and TRUST IN HIM on each of their posts, but wanted to give some thought to this one sentence and use it to highlight a growing concern in baseball - COST.  Multiple PG showcases can "show improvement", but they can also break the bank.  I'll go back to one of the more simple ideas expressed on this site - MAKE A PLAN.  Showcases should play a relatively minor role in one's plan.  Showcases won't make you bigger or stronger and won't make you a better player.  They will provide you some positive exposure when you have something to showcase.

As 3and2 pointed out, PG showcases are not really great vehicle to get some measurables - neither cost effective nor efficient.  Conversely, when you execute your plan and get to the point where you have something to showcase, the PG Showcase can pay immeasurable dividends.  Also, a good grade will get you on the radar, but you had better be able to back it up on the diamond on a regular basis.

I agree with some that PG Events, and other showcase events, should just be another arrow in your quiver.  Can it help?  Sure.  Is it absolutely necessary to attend? No.  Will it help if you have something to show?  100%

Actually it would appear that the original poster is a junior. Your best bet would be to attend showcases geared towards D3 schools or camps at schools you would be interested in playing at. Most D1 rosters are filled, but you could have some luck with Ivy/Patriot League. I wouldn't worry too much about PG this late in the game. 

I know NJ has a free all star game every year for the best players in the state. It's like a North vs South - East vs West type deal. Assuming your high school season is going well you could have two free showcases in the all star game/area code. If there is not much interest after those two events it would be best to hit school specific camps. 

Add to PA’s post ...

If the original poster is in Southern Jersey there’s the possibility of playing Carpenter Cup. Almost every college in the region has coaches there. 

PABaseball posted:

Actually it would appear that the original poster is a junior. Your best bet would be to attend showcases geared towards D3 schools or camps at schools you would be interested in playing at. Most D1 rosters are filled, but you could have some luck with Ivy/Patriot League. I wouldn't worry too much about PG this late in the game. 

I know NJ has a free all star game every year for the best players in the state. It's like a North vs South - East vs West type deal. Assuming your high school season is going well you could have two free showcases in the all star game/area code. If there is not much interest after those two events it would be best to hit school specific camps. 

Just pointing out I have seen a handful of seniors get legit D1 offers this year.  Verbals seem to be worth the paper they are written on.  LOL  

PABaseball posted:

Actually it would appear that the original poster is a junior. Your best bet would be to attend showcases geared towards D3 schools or camps at schools you would be interested in playing at. Most D1 rosters are filled, but you could have some luck with Ivy/Patriot League. I wouldn't worry too much about PG this late in the game. 

I know NJ has a free all star game every year for the best players in the state. It's like a North vs South - East vs West type deal. Assuming your high school season is going well you could have two free showcases in the all star game/area code. If there is not much interest after those two events it would be best to hit school specific camps. 

I have attended some school specific camps and some geared towards D3 schools (Go Yard Prime 60 to name one), and I plan to continue that in the future. My special circumstance when it comes to Perfect Game is that I was lucky enough to win a voucher for a free showcase in a raffle. So even if it isn't the effective way to get someone like me recruited, its free and I'd be a fool not to use it.

Based on your last post, I think you ought to call & talk to Jerry Ford or Jim Arp. Based on your specific skill level & college interest, I know they would steer you in the proper direction. They know best which event would do you the most good. Go to PG website for contact info.

Good Luck!

PABaseball posted:

The answer to the original question is YES. 

I think PG is the best; both as a baseball site and as a baseball service. The only area I can really knock them in is their showcases. I have seen a good amount of kids getting cut from varsity, but have a 7/7.5 displayed on their profile. Even in the write-ups - a player might have a 7.5 score but only throw 78 mph as a junior. The stats don't fit the grade and the grade doesn't fit the "prospect equivalent" 

 

A kid throwing 78mph will get a PG Grade of 7.5.  A kid throwing 80mph gets an 8.0

A kid throwing 72mph will get a 7.0.  Etc   I firmly believe 80% of the grade is velo.  It’s that simple.

Sounds like you have an above average HS team?   My HS varsity has 18 players.    If they all went to a PG showcase tomorrow?

9.0  (1)

8.0  (2)

7.5  (5)

7.0  (10)

And this is a good year!!  Next year?  All 7 - 7.5 at best.  

Velo (arm strength) does seem to be heavily weighted in the grading scale.

With average arm strength, it seems like a player needs to have plus tools in other areas (speed or power) to bump the grade a half point or so. Conversely, really slow speed or lack of power (Exit velo) could drop you down a bit.

That all makes sense. I spent some time looking at showcase grades this morning and the results seem to line up.

Does anyone know how much weighting mechanics, fundamentals, projectability etc are weighted in the grading, if at all?

#1 Assistant Coach posted:

PABaseball posted:

The answer to the original question is YES. 

I think PG is the best; both as a baseball site and as a baseball service. The only area I can really knock them in is their showcases. I have seen a good amount of kids getting cut from varsity, but have a 7/7.5 displayed on their profile. Even in the write-ups - a player might have a 7.5 score but only throw 78 mph as a junior. The stats don't fit the grade and the grade doesn't fit the "prospect equivalent" 

 

A kid throwing 78mph will get a PG Grade of 7.5.  A kid throwing 80mph gets an 8.0

A kid throwing 72mph will get a 7.0.  Etc   I firmly believe 80% of the grade is velo.  It’s that simple.

Sounds like you have an above average HS team?   My HS varsity has 18 players.    If they all went to a PG showcase tomorrow?

9.0  (1)

8.0  (2)

7.5  (5)

7.0  (10)

And this is a good year!!  Next year?  All 7 - 7.5 at best.  

I think the grades are fairly standardized, but in my opinion the application in any particular high school is going to be so variable that no conclusions can be drawn in terms of playing time, etc.

My son's high school team only has a couple of kids in the 2018 - 2020 classes who have done a PG showcase. One got an 8.5 and he is a regular in the lineup, usually bats 6th. The other one got a 9.0 last summer and he hasn't been able to earn playing time yet (one inning pitched, 5 at bats so far -- all in blowouts -- and we're 20+ games into the season). 

PlayWithEffort posted:

Velo (arm strength) does seem to be heavily weighted in the grading scale.

With average arm strength, it seems like a player needs to have plus tools in other areas (speed or power) to bump the grade a half point or so. Conversely, really slow speed or lack of power (Exit velo) could drop you down a bit.

That all makes sense. I spent some time looking at showcase grades this morning and the results seem to line up.

Does anyone know how much weighting mechanics, fundamentals, projectability etc are weighted in the grading, if at all?

Agreed.

Like I stated early on in this thread, PG originally used a 1-6 scale.  Suddenly around 10+- years ago they seemed to change the scale to a 1-10, with most of the grades now awarded being 7.0 - 10.0.  That being said, I don't think it's a coincidence that kids who go to a PG Showcase have velo readings from 70mph to about 94mph, and resulting PG Grades usually fall within a 7.0 (70mph) grade to 9.5 (90+mph).  10.0s can have velos from 89 to 95.  There's a good bit of "fudge factor" in the 9.5-10.0 grades due to projection.  Most other grades seem to be tied close to the velo-factor (70-74mph = 7.0,  75-79=7.5, 80-83=8.0, 84-87=8.5, 88-89=9.0, 89-?=9.5 or 10)

I agree with PlayWithEffort, in that  .5 to 1.5s point can be added or subtracted  for a sub-7 sixty or conversely a 8+ sixty.  Additionally same fudge points can be added or deducted for 3-4 balls hit out at JetBlue or 9/10 balls NOT hit out of infield at JetBlue. 

I can say from experience that PG grades are not exclusively about the velocity factor for pitchers. There is also the young-tall-and-skinny factor:

15 yr, 6'3", 170 lb, 78 mph - PG grade 8
16 yr, 6'5", 175 lb, 84 mph - PG grade 9
17 yr, 6'5", 200 lb, 91 mph - PG grade 10

If there's one thing PG excels at, it's projection. They see so many players that they are just really good at what they do.

PG grades are great.  But you have to keep attending PG showcases and/or play in PG tournaments for those numbers to change.  My son was ranked 8.5 as a freshman.  He attended one more event 6 months later with same rank.  He hasn't been seen by them in 18 months and he's gotten, bigger, stronger, faster. While others who have been seen more recently are now ahead of him in rankings.  Heading into junior year we made the deliberate decision to focus more on academic showcases and college camps vs. more PG events -- that was just what we thought was right for our son's particular situation.  Every approach has its pros and cons.  PG, PBR, showcases, camps, etc. all have pros and cons.  Nothing is truly perfect.  But they all have their roles in the system and we have to do what we think is best at each point in the recruiting timeline.

Enjoying the Ride posted:

I can say from experience that PG grades are not exclusively about the velocity factor for pitchers. There is also the young-tall-and-skinny factor:

15 yr, 6'3", 170 lb, 78 mph - PG grade 8
16 yr, 6'5", 175 lb, 84 mph - PG grade 9
17 yr, 6'5", 200 lb, 91 mph - PG grade 10

If there's one thing PG excels at, it's projection. They see so many players that they are just really good at what they do.

Agreed, it is not about velo "exclusively."   

Velo, I suspect, is the base, it acts as the "starting point" upon which, or from which points for things like plus tools (60, hits w power, etc.) are added to or deducted from.  And yes, often projection is also factored in as obviously an added bonus of .5 to 1.0.  Especially if the scout who authors the write-up states things like, ".......and has immense physical projection remaining." 

Yeah, I'd say they factor in projection.

So here is a similar topic i started 3 years ago.  It's got some good stuff in it:

http://community.hsbaseballweb...grade-of-less-than-7

I will also say that from what I have seen, you can be in 10+ PG events, have your velo and exit velo recorded, etc.  However, if you attend a showcase you get nationally ranked.  Now that may be in the 1000+ rankings, but you are at that point ranked.

My son has never played travel ball. We decided to take him to one of the PG 14U regional showcases that Russinfortworth was talking about just so he could see where he stacked up against other kids his age. For my son, it was the first time he’d ever played out of state & he had a ball. As a family, we thoroughly enjoyed the event & felt that PG did a great job of organizing it. My son was fortunate enough to be invited to compete in the 14U National Showcase for free & is hoping to be selected for the 14U Festival. Seeing his stats let’s him know what he needs to work on. Just for reference since everyone is trying to figure out scores, he received a grade of 8.5 with the following stats. 

OF-90

FB-82 (LHP)

EV-76

60-7.34

CACO....You do not have to do a PG showcase to be Nationally ranked by PG,  just play in PG tournaments.   

stayfocused posted:

CACO....You do not have to do a PG showcase to be Nationally ranked by PG,  just play in PG tournaments.   

You may eventually get ranked playing in PG events, but it’s near instantaneous if you do a showcase.

I know a very talented kid, his whole team was ranked, but he wasn’t.  Got moved up to V at the end of JV in 9th grade which is super hard to do at this school, he had crazy tools, lots of PG all tourney teams. Wasn’t ranked until he did a showcase.  Perhaps coincidence.

I know of a 2021 who is middle of his team, no one is ranked.  He did a showcase with scores and velos that were no where near dazzling, most below 50% mark, he is now ranked.

Can you be ranked without doing a showcase, yes.  However, it looks to me like you have to be super ranked on someone else list first.  Or be the mvp when your team wins a huge tourney like the wwba.

Then again, unless you are talking top 500 rankings it doesn’t really matter, it’s just a perk of doing a showcase. Another major perk is getting unbiased third party numbers that you can link to. However, I can’t imagine the college coaches are making phone calls in order of ranking.

Yes and I will also add that unless you do a showcase you will not be listed on the "Top Uncommitted Prospects" list.   So take John Doe, who has never done a showcase, Nationally ranked in top 300 for his position, but is not listed in the Uncommitted list.