PG scout notes (stats)

I agree and it doesn't matter the age of the scorekeeper.  I watched a game the other day and at the end the scorekeeper was off by 12 pitches which is good for the pitcher being able to come back a day early if needed.  The guy was talking to the fans and scouts and missed a whole at bat.  He asked someone what happened and they said strikeout swinging.  He put three strikes swinging in the computer and moved on.  The batter actually fouled four off and took three balls.

I also do not believe the radar guns are close at times.  The same game had a kid throwing a 88 mph fastball and a 79 mph fastball in the same inning when a scout had the 79 at 87.  It is consistently wrong.  I will agree that at this point it is about entertainment not for scouts.  If they want validity for scouts they have a long way to go and I don't think it is feasible to get there without major overhauls.

The articles are ridiculous because it also comes down to the guys who go to their individual showcases.   I read one on a kid that played with my son who rolled one over to third, easy popup to second, and watched three strikes.  The writeup was that he had a great game hitting the ball hard.  The Player of the Year awards were funny because I know one kid who had better pitching and hitting stats than anyone on the first team but had only played PG tournaments and not PG showcases so he was on second team.  The Player of the Year for that state was a kid who had just been to a showcase.  I know they have to promote the showcase kids because those are the ones paying the money but don't make it out that they are the best from high school.  They are the best from that state that paid for your showcase fee.   At least look at the other awards given by organizations that specifically cover high school regular season before you give awards.

I'm not bashing PG.  I still believe they are the best product out there but I do not believe they are trying to get better at the stats and articles for the tournaments.  They are just focusing on the showcases.  I know it is harder at the tournaments but it is feasible.  I'm with Wareagle on the fact that it is not scouting reports when it comes to tournaments, it is just promotion.  Again, best product out there but don't settle.  Continue to get better and I'm not seeing that.  You make way too much money to not be twice as good as everyone else.

pitching fan

I agree. I absolutely love playing in PG tournaments and the competition. Overall a great thing. But as with anything, some things could be much better!

This isn't to suggest that those who are asked to keep score and evaluate players for PG shouldn't be held to a reasonable standard of quality. They should.

However, it should also be kept in mind that if a recruiter or scout is seriously interested in a player's performance, he'll want his own eyes, mind, and equipment to provide the inputs that go into his opinion/conclusion. This is why they remain resident there for days on end during major tournaments and travel from field to field during very long days. The information that PG reports is just for starters.

I think PG is actually getting better at covering events & tournaments.  Are there mistakes that get made?   No doubt.  But in general they have a lot of talented scouts & writers putting in long hours watching and writing about ballplayers.

A write up on the PG website is not going to get anyone a college commitment, I think everyone here knows that.   It can help get on the radar of some schools and get things moving in the right direction.   Thus, not a huge deal one way or another...

just my 2 cents

I agree.  They have gotten tremendously better.  I am not complaining for my son because he has played 17 PG events.  Overall when you look at his stats or trophies or such you see his results.  But for the kid who plays in one and thinks that will get him seen or at least have a profile then it can be discouraging if it is wrong.  I saw a kid pitch last week that came there just to get on the radar.  he threw one inning and threw well for his age.  The problem was the scorekeeper gave the wrong kid credit even when the dad tried to tell him.  I know they can go fix it later but it is a hassle.  I told him to have the coach contact PG and send an email with details and they would fix it. 

I think the difference between when my middle son was there 8 years ago and now my 2019 and it is a world of difference.  Again, the best product out there no matter what anyone says.  Even at it's worst it is still the best.  My son is blessed to have played in 4 consecutive 17U WWBA's and will make the playoffs this year.  Got offered from 17U last year as a 16u.  Finished 3rd in 15U WWBA two years ago. 

Don't make the mistake of thinking the stats matter.   In identification of prospects, especially at a single event, other than hitting a bunch of bombs or striking out 15 hitters...they matter very little.

Nor does a pitch measured incorrectly by an automated system.  As Prepster pointed out, a scouts/coaches eyes tell him about what the velocity was.  His radar gun only confirms it, not the facility's.

HS stats matter little.  Travel team stats don't matter much either.  What a coach sees with his eyes...matter.  It only takes one to get the buzz rolling.

I agree that for scouting it really doesn’t matter currently. If it were accurate it would/could be one of many tools recruiters could use but only if it has a reputation for being reasonably accurate. 

Maybe I am mistaken ,but where a single event (17U WWBA) brings in upwards of $2million in tournament fees, entry fees, etc. and who knows how much comes thru the website and diamondkast, a little more training and accurate scout notes and stats is not too much to expect?

wareagle posted:

...scout notes written about players or games that do not match the performance or what actually happens in the game.  I believe they often have a list of players they want to write up and then just write what they think people want to hear regardless if a kids results aren’t as advertised that day....

You wrote this at the beginning.

Without seeing specifically what you're talking about - I still think that comment shows you're overly focused on stats/results.  Scout notes would be more reflective of a given player as a prospect, not whether he had a good day at the plate or on the bump.  An Oh-fer day isn't really very relevant for a young Bryce Harper, Mike Trout, or future solid college player (not even necessarily a star).

Scout notes would be about how they see a 17-year old projecting into a college or pro player.  Not about yesterday's results.

To give you an example, the current (possibly all star) right fielder for the Seattle Mariners had a statistically bad junior year in HS.  Not really even a very good his senior year.  But boy-oh-boy if you saw him play you knew he was pretty darned good.  Thats why every school on the West Coast recruited him and he was eventually drafted in the 1st round.  His "results" on a given day in HS or even travel ball weren't so good, but his athleticism, his arm, his foot speed and even his swing were all well above good.

So would many other dads have been frustrated about a positive writeup on him back then?  I don't know, but I suspect there are at least a few dads in Northern California wondering how that kid who struck out 3 times in a game against their 85 mph pitcher son could've been drafted so high...and made it to the big leagues.

The type of write-up you would've seen on him those two years, based on the things you seem to want the write-up to say...wouldn't have been indicative at all of the player scouts knew he would become.  But I assure you that whatever writeup existed back then would have have been good...and made some other parents wonder if they were just writing what others wanted to hear...as you say.  They just would've been wrong...the other parents that is.

I explain to my son that the same swing that you used to go 9/13 in the last tournament is the same swing that had you go 4/11 this weekend.  Scouts (at least I'm hoping) see the swing, the movement on the field, the attitude, the athleticism, the approach, the arm, the glove, the routes, etc........I'd rather have him come home with a 0/12 and 9 snot rockets right at someone, than a 5/12 with 4 bleeders and a duck snort.  Now he may not have helped his team win with his bat by getting on, but hopefully he contributed in other manners.     

Now explaining this whole concept to my wife is another story.  

Your wife needs to listen to you this once, Russ. You're giving your son good counsel; in line with the excellent advice just preceding your post by justbaseball.

Good evaluators of talent know it when they see it.

My son pitched in the 17u WWBA tournament recently.  He's had a good summer and has generated some interest and scouts now watch when he pitches.  Nothing serious and no contact through his travel coach that we were aware of.  In this performance, he has an off the charts awful outing against a solid, but not outstanding, team.  He didn't even get out of the second inning.  In the second inning, there were two bunts that were thrown into right field, a couple of hits that ordinarily would have been routine outs that made it through a drawn-in infield.  Plus a fly ball that was mis-played for a single.  Throw in a few untimely walks, and he ended up giving up a TON of runs and was replaced.

What happened next, you ask?  A school we didn't even know was there reached out to his coach and said he loved what he saw.  His point to the coach was that he goes to games to watch failure.  And when he sees it, he looks for the reaction of the kid.  And my son went to the dugout and was the first kid greeting players as they came off the field and remained very vocal in support of his team throughout the game.  He asked my son (via his travel coach) to call him the next day.  His message was you sucked yesterday, but I saw what I needed to see.  We're recruiting you and I need you to call me every week from here on out.

And now you know the rest of the story......

My philosophy has always been if you are gonna complain you must praise. Drove to back to Atlanta to watch son throw a great game in first round of bracket play for win.  But must praise the scorekeeper. Very knowledgeable young man. Every pitch type was right and dead on in every area. Great job PG and scorekeeper on field 11 last night. He also did a great job of interacting with fans from both teams and umpires. 

I asked one of the PG guys about the articles. They have a list of the teams playing and players to watch for. Sometimes they were told who to write an article for but most of the time they talk to the scorekeepers and find out who had a great game.  I asked one of the PG guys about the articles. They have a list of the teams playing and players to watch for. Sometimes they were told who to write an article for but most of the time they talk to the scorekeepers and find out who had a great game  

Again, the best product out there

I think my son got a few write ups late after he had committed to Clemson. A few were in articles related to his team playing well and going deep into tournament and he was highlighted some. I read the write ups along the way and probably felt similar to the OP in several cases, i had heard they were "phoned in" or written in Iowa by a bunch of folks in a cube farm gleaning the stats and editing cut and paste articles. Who knows? In the end, it's fun to play at LP, in front of scouts/RCs,  better to win than lose and always a good time to have your kid play well regardless of the outcome. Enjoy this time, it flies by and you'll come to chuckle a bit at this post years from now. 

SSBuckeye posted:

My son pitched in the 17u WWBA tournament recently.  He's had a good summer and has generated some interest and scouts now watch when he pitches.  Nothing serious and no contact through his travel coach that we were aware of.  In this performance, he has an off the charts awful outing against a solid, but not outstanding, team.  He didn't even get out of the second inning.  In the second inning, there were two bunts that were thrown into right field, a couple of hits that ordinarily would have been routine outs that made it through a drawn-in infield.  Plus a fly ball that was mis-played for a single.  Throw in a few untimely walks, and he ended up giving up a TON of runs and was replaced.

What happened next, you ask?  A school we didn't even know was there reached out to his coach and said he loved what he saw.  His point to the coach was that he goes to games to watch failure.  And when he sees it, he looks for the reaction of the kid.  And my son went to the dugout and was the first kid greeting players as they came off the field and remained very vocal in support of his team throughout the game.  He asked my son (via his travel coach) to call him the next day.  His message was you sucked yesterday, but I saw what I needed to see.  We're recruiting you and I need you to call me every week from here on out.

And now you know the rest of the story......

This is outstanding and a perfect example of what a LOT of pitching coaches look for, just as hitting coaches look for negative body language after a player strikesbout or makes an error. 

I understand parents get upset when a player has a bad game while coaches and scouts are watching. But they are not expecting you to have a perfect game and coaches who have a true interest will either continue to watch or have someone watch for them.  Also they rely on their own methods (radar gun or stopwatch) to draw their own conclusions. Not charting correctly at a tournament doesn't make PG "Fake News ".   

No wonder Jerry doesn't post here anymore.

Great post Tom.

TPM posted:

No wonder Jerry doesn't post here anymore.

 

Exactly.  Too bad because he offered a lot to readers and posters here.

TPM

Not a terrible jab at PG or Jerry. Maybe the title comes off that way but it was really just for "effect". I hope Jerry does read the posts and takes it for what it truly is meant to be.  "constructive criticism".  I think most would agree that the stats and game input could be improved upon.  Most of the problems there could be solved by simply impressing upon those young boys and girls that their job is important and that it needs to be done as correctly as possible.  Alot of the issues are due to the scorekeepers not being focused on the game or simple input errors that they either don't know how or don't take time to go back and correct. it will never be 100% correct and it may not matter to scouts, but I believe it does matter to parents and coaches and they are the ones paying for the Diamondkast service.

The problem with scout notes is real as well.  I don't expect them to do negative write ups for any kid and that's not what I want . But if you go watch a kid and he has a bad day just skip the write up.  I have seen several where the kid has an off day with pitching control or whatever then you get a write up saying how in command of his pitches he was. No Doubt they are good players and they will have another outing to write about. Don't just write up something that didn't happen just because you already filmed and watched him.

PG has lots of employees and I am sure Jerry does not see every game, maybe this is one way to keep him aware.

As stated earlier, I really like most things about PG tournaments and hope it continues to improve.

I love PG and the opportunity it provides kids.  Wish it existed when I played!  But the stats issue is real.  I've sat through five seasons of PG events with my two boys, and I don't believe I've ever sat through a game where at least one glaring error wasn't made in the score book.  And I'm not talking about judgment calls of error vs. hit.  It's carelessness or lack of knowledge.  Yesterday in our game a kid on our team hit a clean ground ball single to left.  He tried to stretch it into a double and was thrown out.  It was scored a ground ball out to left field.  Last summer my son was pitching and was charged for three hits in a game that were actually fielder's choices.  He also pitched an inning in a game last year but was credited for all 6 innings of a game where his team allowed 11 runs.  It so distorted his pitching stats for the whole summer that it's hard to even look at last year's numbers.

I'm a stats junkie, and I realize the stats are likely more important to parents than schools.  And it never really mattered in the past when the stats were out on GameChanger and you had to hunt pretty hard to find stats on players.  But now that PG has integrated the stats into the athletic profiles, they effectively are giving their seal of approval as to the validity of the stats.  And in the case where mistakes are made that can dramatically effect those stats and tell a different story than reality, that's hard to take.

Rant over.

I thought mistakes with the stats can be changed via a simple email to PG? Not true?

Could be.  I'm not aware of the process if it exists.  Plus, how would they verify that you're not a parent just trying to manipulate the stats.  Always felt like we just had to live with whatever they scored.  Would be good if they did have a mechanism to correct the most egregious errors.

My boys have yet to do a PG event. They may never do one, as they’re not pro prospects, unlike many of your boys.

I’m a stats junkie, too, and if I thought the stats/writeup mattered and PG posted incorrectly,  I would write PG and get it fixed, whatever it took. 

I get the frustration but for many of the posters here the PG product is extremely useful and there doesn’t appear to be anyone on HSBBW any longer who can address complaints. 

The objective of a PG event is go and show you can play the game. Do this and the result will be positive. 

Write ups are nice. Chances are if a kid gets one coaches already know who he is. As a kid (LL to high school) my pleasure in writeups was hearing my mother bitch they either got my name wrong or spelled it wrong. When she asked if I saw the mistake I told her I never read the articles. I was at the game. 

The irony is several years ago I showed a great article on my son to my son. He looked at me like I was nuts and said, “I know what I’m hitting!” 

wareagle posted:

TPM

Not a terrible jab at PG or Jerry. Maybe the title comes off that way but it was really just for "effect". I hope Jerry does read the posts and takes it for what it truly is meant to be.  "constructive criticism".  I think most would agree that the stats and game input could be improved upon.  Most of the problems there could be solved by simply impressing upon those young boys and girls that their job is important and that it needs to be done as correctly as possible.  Alot of the issues are due to the scorekeepers not being focused on the game or simple input errors that they either don't know how or don't take time to go back and correct. it will never be 100% correct and it may not matter to scouts, but I believe it does matter to parents and coaches and they are the ones paying for the Diamondkast service.

The problem with scout notes is real as well.  I don't expect them to do negative write ups for any kid and that's not what I want . But if you go watch a kid and he has a bad day just skip the write up.  I have seen several where the kid has an off day with pitching control or whatever then you get a write up saying how in command of his pitches he was. No Doubt they are good players and they will have another outing to write about. Don't just write up something that didn't happen just because you already filmed and watched him.

PG has lots of employees and I am sure Jerry does not see every game, maybe this is one way to keep him aware.

As stated earlier, I really like most things about PG tournaments and hope it continues to improve.

I think that if you had concerns, felt that a topic entitled " fake news" would catch his attention, maybe you should just make a phone call with your concerns? 

Just sayin'.

The title probably does come across pretty harsh. Long Hot day and it sounded good at the time. The content of the message is correct.

I thought this board was here to express opinions and ideas and get feed back. Excuse me if I was wrong.  If I had an individual gripe then I might give PG a call, but this was more of just a general observation/frustration that I believe others share. 

wareagle posted:

The title probably does come across pretty harsh. Long Hot day and it sounded good at the time. The content of the message is correct.

I thought this board was here to express opinions and ideas and get feed back. Excuse me if I was wrong.  If I had an individual gripe then I might give PG a call, but this was more of just a general observation/frustration that I believe others share. 

...and you're getting feedback.  Or was your post meant to be a one-way street, i.e. you->PG?  The truth (and feedback) is...the stats don't really matter.

I'm not a PG defender - far from it.  But I'm giving you feedback that you're focused on a mostly irrelevant thing.

We can just disagree on that I guess. 

Stats do matter. If they did not matter then why would people pay to view them. They may not matter to scouts, but the scouts are not the primary source of income.  

If we just say that’s stats don’t matter then why even publish them?  Because people will pay to see them!

And as long as we are paying for them we should request that they be correct. 

You're right, Wareagle, you have a right to see stats that are accurate.  Some folks may not care; you do. But no one here can help you with getting the stats corrected.

I back up  WAREAGLE on this.   The main point of the OP was about scout notes being incorrect....the stats were an afterthought.  I witnessed a game last year at BCS (played before my son's game so I have no dog in the fight), where a pitcher no-hit or 1-hit (I can't remember) a highly rated ELITE team that was PRIMED with talent...if you get my drift.  Scout notes the next day mentioned all the hitters from the team that lost and nothing about the pitcher.  I did send a comment about that to PG cause it bothered me so much.  Might have been that kid's moment of glory and put him on the radar at a future tournament....but unless you watched in person, you never knew it happened.

All organizations doing tournaments have an issue with teenagers hired to do score keeping, but as WAREAGLE says, even  if you are the best in the business, there is still room for improvement with feedback from your customers.

justbaseball posted:

wareagle posted:

The title probably does come across pretty harsh. Long Hot day and it sounded good at the time. The content of the message is correct.

I thought this board was here to express opinions and ideas and get feed back. Excuse me if I was wrong.  If I had an individual gripe then I might give PG a call, but this was more of just a general observation/frustration that I believe others share. 

...and you're getting feedback.  Or was your post meant to be a one-way street, i.e. you->PG?  The truth (and feedback) is...the stats don't really matter.

I'm not a PG defender - far from it.  But I'm giving you feedback that you're focused on a mostly irrelevant thing.

I love PG. and I really wish PGstaff still posted on this site. I truly cherished his expert opinions and advice. But if what what the 2 of you are saying is correct, in a nutshell,  the stats are inaccurate and irrelevant, they why is PG wasting time and money providing it?

It can be quite comical. The other day we were watching a young kid (18? 19?) categorize 87 mph and 88 mph and 89 mph fastballs as changeups -- at least 15 or 20 of them. It was a hoot to see it posted on the board. Sure helped the "average fastball velocity" of the pitcher (who topped out at 92, IIRC).

At some point there will be an automated system to do it. But where's the comedy in that?

Because folks like WarEagle like them...track them...think they're important.  Look, I'm not saying PG shouldn't strive to make them accurate - but he and others tied them to the writeups about a player and I'm trying to say that a positive writeup is just because thats "what they think people want to hear regardless if a kids results" is just wrong and mostly misses the point of the PG events.  See example I gave above.

Maybe I'm trying to say that too many people get hung up on HS/travel ball stats.  This isn't new, but anyone who has gone through the process knows that its one of the less relevant things in any given game or event in identifying college or pro talent.

Here's some stats that might(?) matter from an event - home runs (or extra base hits), strikeouts, walks.  Not a whole lot more.

This site (I thought) was supposed to help younger parents understand what is really important on this journey.  I'm trying to do that.  I saw many parents focused on stats and get very confused when their .500 hitter got no college interest.  Or very frustrated when they saw another HS hitter with a .200 average get a big ride at a D1 powerhouse.  This scenario isn't routine, but it isn't abnormal either.  If your son hits .500 at a PG event - enjoy it!  But for goodness sakes don't give it one thought if they record it as .300.  It just doesn't matter.

if you cannot process poor PG write ups and fake news you will have a hard time when your son is on a national stage. the press loves you one day and hates you the next.   i decided to stay off social media, , websites and opinion based sites. they are just trying to make a buck and have no idea what is really going on.. let it slide

I was joking about the pitch categorizations, above, and yes there may be recordkeeping problems with Diamondkast (substitutions seem to be a particular problem), but I for one think the scout notes are awesome. It's really cool for the kids to read about themselves or players they know. And what's the downside? Same thing with PBR "comments" they publish about a player. It's mostly just reporting what happened ("Player X hit Y mph"), they don't really put negative stuff in it, and it's fun for the kids mentioned and those that know them and wish them well.

Also, same with tweets put out by PG, PBR, etc. It's fun for the kids highlighted. 

It seems to me when you start selling the stats, diamonkast, you have an obligation to get correct, does that sound like to much to ask? 

PG is great, it is a money machine, it should absolutely do better when it charges extra.

Oh and for god sake let’s stop using first names, it sounds like a need to establish credibility due to knowing names....nobody cares. Post your opinion and move on like most of the rest of us. 

old_school posted:

Oh and for god sake let’s stop using first names, it sounds like a need to establish credibility due to knowing names....nobody cares. Post your opinion and move on like most of the rest of us. 

Is this because I called justbaseball Tom who I have just about known for as long as your kid is in years?

That used to be the best about the HSBBW. Meeting people here then having our kids later cross paths or meeting their sons along the way.

How many people have you ever met from the HSBBW?

Anyway, I have a much better idea, that would be to think first before one posts the title of the topic!  

Good move Wareagle,  we all know that those words have negative connotations.

RoadRunner posted:

justbaseball posted:

wareagle posted:

The title probably does come across pretty harsh. Long Hot day and it sounded good at the time. The content of the message is correct.

I thought this board was here to express opinions and ideas and get feed back. Excuse me if I was wrong.  If I had an individual gripe then I might give PG a call, but this was more of just a general observation/frustration that I believe others share. 

...and you're getting feedback.  Or was your post meant to be a one-way street, i.e. you->PG?  The truth (and feedback) is...the stats don't really matter.

I'm not a PG defender - far from it.  But I'm giving you feedback that you're focused on a mostly irrelevant thing.

I love PG. and I really wish PGstaff still posted on this site. I truly cherished his expert opinions and advice. But if what what the 2 of you are saying is correct, in a nutshell,  the stats are inaccurate and irrelevant, they why is PG wasting time and money providing it?

People will pay for it. It allows the marketing of various subscription levels. 

Also, what goes on the scoreboard for velocity and pitch (fastball/curveball/etc) is not what is recorded in PG database. That is from trackman. 

TPM posted:

old_school posted:

Oh and for god sake let’s stop using first names, it sounds like a need to establish credibility due to knowing names....nobody cares. Post your opinion and move on like most of the rest of us. 

Because I called justbaseball Tom who I have known for as long as your kid is in years.

That used to be the best about the HSBBW. Meeting people here then having our kids later cross paths or meeting their sons along the way.

How many people have you ever met here?

 

About five last night. It was a 2020/21 pizza party. 

Was hoping to meet TPM in florida couple weeks ago, but timing just didn’t work out. Hopefully next summer. 

Through another esteemed board member, my son picked up on an out of state team last summer for almost a month. Played a couple with them this year. Just finished yesterday. I’ve met at least 15 families over the two summers, several I chat with monthly. A couple are coming back to Texas this fall to visit and get in a couple hunts. I may be coming up to Tennessee for some AT backpacking with a few others. 

I even met this guy from this board and had long conversations with him. He is from CALIFORNIA!  At first pass, he seems normal. Unbelievable!

I have met and talked to some of the board members many here may considered CRAZY!  You may or may not be right.

Although getting to the NE will probably not happen, I do have RJM on my bucket list. 

Off to play a team from Kansas City area. I make it a point to talk to other team parents. 

Oh, and I did this July 4 as gift to wife and daughter. 

Good for you!! This is why the HSBBW is awesome!

I know you by first name but dont want to get old school all upset!