PG scout notes (stats)

Go44dad posted:

Oh, and I did this July 4 as gift to wife and daughter. 

You are hysterical!  Thats an awesome view!

My two cents.... It's hard being a parent shelling out the dough for lessons, showcases , tourney's, food, gas, hotel .... believe me I know.... and then the expectations of the PG events, the scouts, recruiters.... you want with all your being for your son to be the best he can be at the right time.  And when something throws a wrench in it, example..... a young PG guy not paying attention, diamondkast not working, the radar gun not calibrated it can be frustrating..  

Please understand the recruiters and scouts do not care about the results of one game even two games... they do not care about with PG thinks.....  they are looking for potential , projectable skills and they are far better at evaluations than we are... 

When I first took 2013 to an AC tryout I thought we had hit the pinnacle.... I was all about the gun readings, what teams were there  I was green as a pea. 

After countless PG tourney's, AC, ECP, Pro Days, home visits ,  NCAA regionals, Juco games , D1 games, D3 games, scrimmages, Jupiter's , Fort Myers... you name it Connie Mack  I can tell you I have learned a ton..... but I still cannot eval talent like SEC recruiters and Pro scouts.....  they see so many players for so many years....  and you guys are worrying about stats and PG ?  

Go enjoy the events , being with your son , playing against future MLB'ers  .. hoping it doesn't rain... do the best you can and you will land where you should be .  The "machine" has a way of putting D1 talent at D1 schools and academic talent at D3 schools and so on.   

Again I know its frustrating but just let it go,  and if and when you talk to recruiters, they do not want your stat numbers, they do not want to know how good he is, how good he can be and how good you think he is, do not make excuses.... IF your conversation goes that way , you are not helping the situation.  Be nice, talk about the weather, answer questions asked of you, be humble, be honest ... these schools are very much interested in the person as well as the player.... 

ok I'm done for now... 

Very said, I pretty much agree with all your points. I think when you charge extra for product and your use the marketing point of how it helps the experience...they should put more effort into making it right.

It is amazing that simple point, which isnt even a criticism but a comment on the business model is not universally agreed upon.

well, it's emotional.  Maybe that's it, when stats and "objective" writeups imply that the process is data driven.

I can't tell the difference between a mid major d1 guy and a strong d3 guy and it drives me crazy, too.

Maybe this is obvious, but it seems like Perfect Game is The Man and we mere mortals feel resentment and beholden to it at the same time.

Backdorslider offers sage advice. He has been through this many times.

I agree if you pay for a service, you should expect it to be accurate. However, think about what's going on, how many games in a day and who is taking notes, who is entering data? If you aren't happy, don't pay money if you feel the results aren't what you are expecting.  I personally have no dog in this fight, but it seems every year there are complaints when you all know what you have gotten yourself into, a very, very large tournament. First year, since LP existence , complaints have included entrance fees, parking fees, couldn't bring in coolers, high cost of food, weather, poor stat taking, poor write ups. As bacdorslider mentioned, go and have fun, enjoy watching your son play, enjoy this time together. Dont take your frustration or sitting there on a hot day on an organization who is trying to get your player exposure and play some good baseball.  One thing to remember, if the player is identified as a D1 player, or possibly a D2,  they get the write up, but it will be the guy who signed at Big State U, more than likely.  That is what they do. I feel the same way about D1 baseball. It is ALL about big state U and those players. I won't pay for their paid content, only for the scores. 

On another note, son called last night to say hello. Said all the coaches were talking about that it was the best tourney ever at LP....NO RAIN. Got to see all games, no crazy re scheduling or late night games. Got to see all of their 19s and a few uncommitted. 

My son is worn out. His day started with the first game and didn't end until the last game was played. That was every day of the tourney. He went on to say as Dave did to TPM that it was one of the best he has attended. He said he saw some really good players and some guys he feels they can get on campus. These events are an opportunity. An opportunity for players to be seen by a multitude of coaches from all levels of the game. An opportunity for the players to compete against guys from all over. An opportunity to be tested for some for the first time really all year. 

I understand the frustration on the stats issue. I get it. You pay for something you want it to be right. There are ways to address this and I am sure PG has heard about this and I am sure they will work to make it as accurate as possible. I also hope people understand that in the big scheme of things that doesn't matter outside of it "irking" you. I would suggest not paying for it and not focusing on it. But that's just my opinion.

One thing is for sure if you focus on the negative you can find you will have a hard time seeing the positive and enjoying the experience. College coaches are looking for players. They trust what they can see. There is a reason they go and a reason they invest so much time putting their eyes directly on the players. 

TPM posted:

 

How many people have you ever met from the HSBBW?.

2 so far, and hopefully a bunch more over the next several years.  It was great meeting Zia in Indianapolis last week when both our kids were there for a 15U tournament.

I have to agree with the idea that the talent evaluators in both college and pro ball have a different lens than most parents do.   Although my son seldom provides PG newsworthy performances, I have learned to shift my evaluation of my son’s performance / abilities to how many phone calls / emails he recieves after the PG event. 

For the OP.....in every email and phone call thus far....no one talks about my son’s PG stats, high school stats or the fact he is not one of the top 100 ranked players in the Nation. 

My son receives and has received texts after almost every game he pitches in travel and high school. They usually state info that they would only know if they were at the game or checking gamechanger or diamondkast. Such as innings pitched, strikeouts, etc.  Coaches may not place much value in them but they do follow. 

wareagle posted:

My son receives and has received texts after almost every game he pitches in travel and high school. They usually state info that they would only know if they were at the game or checking gamechanger or diamondkast. Such as innings pitched, strikeouts, etc.  Coaches may not place much value in them but they do follow. 

I believe stats can be of value at the amateur level providing they are accurate, nonbiased, as well as, the level of competition is noted.  Mowing down the average high school team is typically not as impressive as mowing down a team of top prospects at a PG event.   

3and2Fastball posted:

TPM posted:

 

How many people have you ever met from the HSBBW?.

2 so far, and hopefully a bunch more over the next several years.  It was great meeting Zia in Indianapolis last week when both our kids were there for a 15U tournament.

Four for me. 

Son is playing this week In Auburndale Florida In the 2021 Wilson Premier if anyone is in the area. 

wareagle posted:

My son receives and has received texts after almost every game he pitches in travel and high school. They usually state info that they would only know if they were at the game or checking gamechanger or diamondkast. Such as innings pitched, strikeouts, etc.  Coaches may not place much value in them but they do follow. 

I hate to seem like I'm picking on you - but you're still focused on the wrong thing.

The coach texts that to show your son he watched and begin the conversation.  The coach does care about strikeouts (see my earlier post) and somewhat about innings pitched (more like K/IP is relevant) or maybe pitches thrown (read that as efficiency).  Not many other stats matter too much to the coach.  If any of those numbers was off, unless off by a ton, the coach wouldn't care.  (Hopefully you wouldn't correct him).

The coach cares about how hard your son throws, is he left-handed or right-handed, how tall he is and how much he weighs (is there room for growth?).  The coach cares if your son looks athletic, if he’s shaving yet.   The coach wants to see if your son commands (not throw for strikes, but commands) 3 pitches.  2 is ok, 3 is better.  The coach cares about your son's demeanor on the mound - what happens when $hit hits the fan? - is almost more important than when things are going well.  Does he melt?  Or does he compete?  The coach wants to see your son pitch and imagine through an experienced lens what he could be in 2-3 years.  And the coach cares about mom and dad - as in, will they be a problem if your son is in their program.

True story - twice I saw dads of players at our older son's college go to the press box to try and correct stats.  While I liked both dads, I thought it was incredibly embarrassing.

That whole paragraph above isn't about stats at all.  And they're all more important than even the writeup PG supplies.

I take your point earlier - you paid for something (stats and writeups), so you oughta get a quality product.  But IMO you're transmitting too much that you're focused on those things and not quite understanding that the reality is they just don't matter much - in HS or at a PG event.

Let me give you a straight scoop comparison for 2 pitchers I know quite well...Junior year in HS.

Pitcher #1, 7-5, 2.80 ERA, 100 Ks in 70 innings.

Pitcher #2, 11-0, 1.70 ERA, 65 Ks in 70 innings.

Which pitcher played on the USA national team?  Which one had the most offers?  Which one was the Baseball America HS All American?  Which one was drafted out of HS?

I'm sure you can guess by now the answer to ALL of those questions is Pitcher #1.

Truth is, I don’t go to perfect game or any other events with my primary focus on scouts. Sure I look around and it’s neat to see who’s there but that’s it. I go to watch my son and lots of other boys whom i have literally watched grow up.  I have no control at that point what scouts see or don’t see. My son has been committed for a while and I think it’s a good fit for him. 

I do enjoy following kids we have played with and against over the years.  Most times the way I follow is on gamechanger, etc. I love seeing thier successes and progression. And yes I like to compare stats for my son against his peers. For my own evaluation,  I simply would really like accurate information. 

PS- I don’t take anything on this board personal or intend for anything I say to be taken that way. Just a way to voice opinions and disagreement is not always bad. 

Again, this is not to take issue with the OP's original assertion that PG should make every effort to provide quality statistical information. They should. However, when it comes to other scholastic-level stats, recruiters and scouts virtually never pay any attention to them.

Not only is the quality of the scorekeeping notoriously uneven; but, scholastic stats are skewed appreciably by the uneven competition that many scholastic teams play. This goes for all levels: high school, travel, American Legion, and others.

If you're a parent who is concerned about poor quality stats because you think they might negatively affect the opinions of recruiters and scouts, you need to find something else to be concerned about. Scholastic stats are a non-issue when it comes to evaluating a player's  worthiness for the next level. That's why the evaluators go to such ends and extremes to see players play in person.

One of the things everyone seems to forget is that the PG website and DiamondKast are one facet of the revenue stream that PG has, along with showcases and tournaments. Used to be a time that you could look at a player's profile and see the self reported stuff like GPA and standardized test scores, but now PG has monetized that data for "scout level" subscribers only. It used to be kind of handy so you could tell if your kid met the basic academic profile of a recruit at an Ivy school, service academy, etc. Follow the revenue...PG has.

I know PGStaff used to come on here and provide advice that people found valuable, but he certainly could not handle the criticism of his product. These weren't personal attacks on him, it was about PG as a business. He would post (and they are still out there) about all the kids he has helped gain visibility and via that they were able to pursue baseball at the next level, and I am sure he did/does. But let's be honest finally, ok? Perfect Game is a long way away from how the company started, was envisioned, or probably from what Ford dreamt it would do.

PG promotes the same kids relentlessly, their objective is about driving revenue for the company and they create as many ways as possible to do that as they can. Kumar Rocker throws 98 and played in XYZ showcase (which he never paid a penny for, BTW) and is committed to Vanderbilt. If I want to play at Vandy or a similar school, I have to try to do the same things (this is the trap people fall prey to), and in the process drop TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLAR. I met the father of Jake Cave (former LSU commit, currently with the Twins organization I believe) at his PG All American game in 2011 and asked him "What does it take to get your kid to this level?" His answer was an eye opener "be prepared to spend a ton of money."

Perfect Game is at the front of the line with their hands out. Why let people pay another service for PG game stats (Gamechanger) when they could monetize that facet of his product? Want to see the kid your DNA created play in the tournament you spent a ton of money to be part of? Pony up the gate fee. Oh, don't forget to pay the parking attendant either. It's grotesque really. But it's not just PG, to be fair. PBR is another one who has essentially monetized the recruiting process. Add to the mix every college baseball program in America with their need to fund their program via college camps filled with kids who have absolutely no chance to ever play at that level. But are they to blame, or is it the parents with the money who are gladly handing it over? You don't have one without the other. I just wish it wasn't this way. It really saddens me.

I may be wrong but has anyone read the article where the parent was kidnapped, held at gun point and forced to attend a PG event? If what PG did was not so successful would anyone attend? How is it successful?

PG provides a venue for very good players to play with and against other very good players. This brings the decision makers to those venues both college level and professional level. This provides players with instant feedback both how they actually stack up metrics wise and the ability to put those metrics in play. It allows them to know exactly what those decision makers think. And that matters. 

If you got a kid who can't stand out on a HS field vs the local HS talent and you decide to shell out thousands of dollars to put him on the showcase baseball circuit the only person you should be pissed at when he doesn't get what you want him to get is yourself. I guess PG could simply say "We don't want your money. Your not good enough. You suck go home."

There was a time when the really good player from BFE didn't have venues to see where he stacked up. He didn't have the opportunities there are today. He had to settle. He never got challenged. He didn't get to be around other players with his or more talent and a work ethic as strong or stronger. He missed out. Yes he missed out. 

Do you have to spend thousands of dollars? No. Absolutely not. Do you have to buy the best glove? Do you have to buy the best bat? Do you have to provide the best opportunity you can possibly provide for your player? Hell no. And if it's not that big of a deal for you to do that I have no problem with that. But if it is I have no problem with that either. Maybe you will build a bond with your kid that will last a lifetime. Maybe those experiences will be life long memories. Maybe you won't have as much money you would have had. You can have that bass boat? You can take more vacations? You can focus that energy in other directions. But for those that did put that "money" into this deal and did invest all they could let me hear you come on here when your is all done and moved on in life and tell me you regret it. You regret having a journey you could ride with your son. You regret the trips together. You regret the meals together. You regret the time spent together. You regret memories made on and off the field together. You regret knowing you did all you could do to give him the best opportunities at the game he loves. Come on lets hear it.

You know how many times I used to hear parents complain about how "No one comes to see the kids play!" "You can't get seen in this town." Now people bitch about how much it cost to enjoy the opportunities others get to enjoy. Maybe you should recheck your priorities a little? Or maybe not? Maybe you shouldn't try to showcase something until its got something to showcase? Maybe if he does have something to showcase you should be smarter about how you spend your money? Or maybe not. Maybe you should start your own opportunity providing endeavor and remedy this scourge on society? You know Dads and Mom's spending actual time with their kids and being engaged in their dreams. We have too much of that going on in this world anyway right? 

Jerry was smart when he decided to walkaway from this site. He doesn't need it. I know him personally and I know his heart. And I know he cares about the young men and their families. And I know he's far from perfect just not as far from it as me. You can invest as much as your willing to invest. You can provide as much or as little opportunity as you wish. But I have never regretted one penny I spent helping my son realize his dream or any penny I have spent helping another player in this game. And I understood I wasn't always going to walk feeling like it was money well spent. It was a shot and I took it. But you miss 100 percent of the shots you don't take. Spend wisely? Yes. But that pertains to anything you do. But at least I don't have to wonder if I did all I could have done. 

For those that believe that this high priced baseball is too high of a price to pay and not worth it there is a simple solution. Don't do it. If your really good you can go to the local college camp and impress. You can find all kinds of ways to be seen. You will limit options. You will not know who you stack up with the rest. You will not have the experiences others have. So it's a personal choice and there is no one size fits all. You have to decide how all in you are. How all in you can afford to be. How all in should you be. It comes down to a personal choice and I am glad there are opportunities in spite of the fact they are not perfect. 

"And I understood I wasn't always going to walk feeling like it was money well spent. It was a shot and I took it. But you miss 100 percent of the shots you don't take. Spend wisely? Yes. But that pertains to anything you do. But at least I don't have to wonder if I did all I could have done." Coach May 

Yup. I just wish my instincts to spend wisely were stronger. Why can't PG help me with that?

I know PGStaff used to come on here and provide advice that people found valuable, but he certainly could not handle the criticism of his product. These weren't personal attacks on him, it was about PG as a business.

A lot of it was irrational and very personal. There was no reason for him to stay and take the abuse about five people repeatedly laid on him. PG’s absense is the board’s loss. In the past he went out of his way to make things happens for poster’s kids. PG got poster’s kids on teams. He got poster’s kids into events they missed the registration deadline. 

You don’t go to PG events to be discovered. The studs have already been discovered. Everyone else needs to lay the groundwork before they go. The best groundwork is a credible travel coach contacting college coaches on behalf of players.

If a player wants to throw spaghetti off the wall to see what sticks at a PG event he better have at least one skill that makes him standout .

Sometimes I wonder if dad’s see their son’s as D1 prospects in 14u. Then they get upset with PG and nitpick when it turns out they’re not D1 prospects at 17u.

Please, don't get me started on this. With all due respect, the recruiting aspect of college baseball, for the non-studs who are slam dunks that a blind man can tell are D1 caliber, those kids who are hoping to continue to wear the uniform (even at the JUCO level) and are one of the 3000 guys who categorize as "top 500" and "Top 1000" has been completely monetized for the profit of companies and as a funding mechanism for the school. To not admit that would be disingenuous, Coach May. Coaches and a few smart guys figured it out in the late 1990's and have been swimming in the profits ever since. I'm not saying they aren't entitled to it, because in baseball it's all about "if you build it, they will come," but to discount the fact that college baseball recruiting has been overtaken as a profit generator for private businesses, recruiting services, or as a funding source for college baseball programs is turning a blind eye to this issue, and in my mind a serious problem.

I'm in complete agreement that every single parent could just close the wallet and purse and walk away from this. I know a few parents who are ready to do just that, because at every turn, every aspect of the college recruiting cycle for their players they are being asked to shell out money. I know the argument that if you want to pay for college, the worst way to plan for that is by making the mistaken assumption of a full-ride and pouring good money after bad when there has been ZERO interest from colleges. Ah, but then that one e-mail comes in that gives you a glimmer of hope, and then the addiction starts again. What if?! Rinse and repeat, right?

So, again, the companies and schools are not to blame per se, because as you said you can just say no, walk away and reflect on the "what if we had only ..." scenario later on in life. Or, like many parents, you hold out hope that you can help your child achieve their dream. So yeah, I guess it's a parental problem...except how many club baseball team were there in the 1990's vice now? Is it because there are that many more college caliber kids out there because all of the sudden the coaching got that much better over the years? Or maybe some good-hearted coaches are putting teams together to get these kids in front of some college coaches or pro scouts (altruistic motive), or maybe its just further evidence of people even further down the chain creating revenue for themselves? Anyone's guess, and certainly it could all stop if the wallets and purses of the parents closed to these "opportunities." But that is where the problem lies...these "opportunities" more and more cost $$$ to experience or avail yourself to. Not just entry fees. Airfare, hotels, gas, food, rental cars...etc. I know there has to be someone working on a book on the absolute money pit the pursuit of college baseball has become. At least I hope there is.

Very well stated, Coach May.  Personally, my son benefited from the PG events, and as Coach May mentions, we enjoyed all of our trips to them.  Were there times when the write-ups weren't perfect, or the All Tourney Teams didn't include him when they should?  Of course, but overall, we had good experiences.

We are definitely a middle class family, and as such, we had to pick and choose what tourneys, showcases, etc. that he could attend.  Sometimes it meant we had to send him with others, but I wouldn't change it for the world.  I for one am thankful that PG and others provided these opportunities for him.

smokeminside posted:

"And I understood I wasn't always going to walk feeling like it was money well spent. It was a shot and I took it. But you miss 100 percent of the shots you don't take. Spend wisely? Yes. But that pertains to anything you do. But at least I don't have to wonder if I did all I could have done." Coach May 

Yup. I just wish my instincts to spend wisely were stronger. Why can't PG help me with that?

They are, now with Scoutday, which Perfect is touting as a way to have video of your kid evaluated by a PG scout and scored by PG (got that e-mail today). Wait, if you can be scouted via video, why is there a need for showcases or even tournaments then? How much merit should you put into one of these evaluations?

"So yeah, I guess it's a parental problem...except how many club baseball team were there in the 1990's vice now? Is it because there are that many more college caliber kids out there because all of the sudden the coaching got that much better over the years?"

I would answer that "Yes" there are more college caliber kids now, and that the players are definitely better now than there were in the 90's.  Just look at the velos of the kids today.  90 back then would get you in a great spot, now, it generally takes more than just hitting that mark.  

I would argue that the club baseball teams that you are apparently bashing as money makers are one of the main reasons.  Club baseball allowed my son to receive daily instruction from a former D-1, 2 Time All American, a Stanford Catcher, and a myriad of other former pro & college players.  Daily learning through their practices, conversations about the mental aspects of the game undoubtedly helped Ryno along the way. 

There is no question there are better players now and more college caliber kids, because they are practicing more, eating better, training harder, etc.

A lot of people spend too much money on sports too soon. Then they get upset with the venues when it doesn’t pan out. You can’t purchase talent. 

I’ll start with the disclaimer I played D1 ball. It gave me a head start on baseball knowledge. It gave my kids a head start genetically. I provided the instruction for my kids as their coach.

It wasn't until high school when it was obvious my kids had genuine talent that I started spending money. They both went to speed camp to become faster. They were already fast. My son had his swing changed after soph year of high school. He was already a good hitter. He had to have it beaten into his head with reps not to pull everything. There were times to drive the ball the other way. 

My kids played on travel teams before showcasing I coached (with other former dad college players) for minimal cost.** Their 17u (baseball) and 18u (softball) teams that traveled the East Coast were heavily subsidized. His scout league team was free/sponsored by a former MLBer.

When I see parents pouring out 5k per year starting at 10u I just shake my head.

** I met a dad who didn’t know baseball who found qualified dad coaches and put together a team for his son to play on. He was GM. He did all the recruiting, organization and paper work. All the coaches had to do was coach. 

rynoattack posted:

"So yeah, I guess it's a parental problem...except how many club baseball team were there in the 1990's vice now? Is it because there are that many more college caliber kids out there because all of the sudden the coaching got that much better over the years?"

I would answer that "Yes" there are more college caliber kids now, and that the players are definitely better now than there were in the 90's.  Just look at the velos of the kids today.  90 back then would get you in a great spot, now, it generally takes more than just hitting that mark.  

I would argue that the club baseball teams that you are apparently bashing as money makers are one of the main reasons.  Club baseball allowed my son to receive daily instruction from a former D-1, 2 Time All American, a Stanford Catcher, and a myriad of other former pro & college players.  Daily learning through their practices, conversations about the mental aspects of the game undoubtedly helped Ryno along the way. 

There is no question there are better players now and more college caliber kids, because they are practicing more, eating better, training harder, etc.

Don't put words in my mouth, I wasn't bashing anyone.

GaryMe posted:

rynoattack posted:

"So yeah, I guess it's a parental problem...except how many club baseball team were there in the 1990's vice now? Is it because there are that many more college caliber kids out there because all of the sudden the coaching got that much better over the years?"

I would answer that "Yes" there are more college caliber kids now, and that the players are definitely better now than there were in the 90's.  Just look at the velos of the kids today.  90 back then would get you in a great spot, now, it generally takes more than just hitting that mark.  

I would argue that the club baseball teams that you are apparently bashing as money makers are one of the main reasons.  Club baseball allowed my son to receive daily instruction from a former D-1, 2 Time All American, a Stanford Catcher, and a myriad of other former pro & college players.  Daily learning through their practices, conversations about the mental aspects of the game undoubtedly helped Ryno along the way. 

There is no question there are better players now and more college caliber kids, because they are practicing more, eating better, training harder, etc.

Don't put words in my mouth, I wasn't bashing anyone.

"but to discount the fact that college baseball recruiting has been overtaken as a profit generator for private businesses, recruiting services, or as a funding source for college baseball programs is turning a blind eye to this issue, and in my mind a serious problem."

You're right, it sounds like you are behind it 100%...

Here is one of your posts from earlier this year, so tell me again that you aren't "bashing" anyone, and that I am putting words in your mouth?  I think my initial read was correct, and after researching your previous posts, I am 100% right.  You obviously have an issue, and to use a term you used earlier, you are being a bit "disingenuous".

Calling PG's folks a "Crack team of scouts", and saying they allow people to "buy ratings", is an attack on their character, and I for one don't appreciate it.

rynoattack posted:

GaryMe posted:

rynoattack posted:

"So yeah, I guess it's a parental problem...except how many club baseball team were there in the 1990's vice now? Is it because there are that many more college caliber kids out there because all of the sudden the coaching got that much better over the years?"

I would answer that "Yes" there are more college caliber kids now, and that the players are definitely better now than there were in the 90's.  Just look at the velos of the kids today.  90 back then would get you in a great spot, now, it generally takes more than just hitting that mark.  

I would argue that the club baseball teams that you are apparently bashing as money makers are one of the main reasons.  Club baseball allowed my son to receive daily instruction from a former D-1, 2 Time All American, a Stanford Catcher, and a myriad of other former pro & college players.  Daily learning through their practices, conversations about the mental aspects of the game undoubtedly helped Ryno along the way. 

There is no question there are better players now and more college caliber kids, because they are practicing more, eating better, training harder, etc.

Don't put words in my mouth, I wasn't bashing anyone.

"but to discount the fact that college baseball recruiting has been overtaken as a profit generator for private businesses, recruiting services, or as a funding source for college baseball programs is turning a blind eye to this issue, and in my mind a serious problem."

You're right, it sounds like you are behind it 100%...

You are conflating my comment about the increased number of club teams currently vs 1990s with my comment that college recruiting is an industry. I wasn't poking club baseball programs in the eye, Einstein.

Who believes their kid does PG events for a score? My son did them so his play could validate what his travel coach told the college coaches about him. The only scores that mattered were sixty time, throwing velocity, etc.. And the college coaches do their own.

PG was just a quality venue to perform where other quality players show up to perform. More than anything it was validation of belonging on the same field with the other players.

I could see the inevitable devolution from the get go from the title. SMH

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DmYLrxR0Y8

RJM posted:

Who believes their kid does PG events for a score? My son did them so his play could validate what his travel coach told the college coaches about him. The only scores that mattered were sixty time, throwing velocity, etc.. And the college coaches do their own.

PG was just a quality venue to perform where other quality players show up to perform. More than anything it was validation of belonging on the same field with the other players.

Scores, validation, whatever. If Hannity brings up an old post I commented on I don't even know how long ago about how a kid got a PG Grade of "7" and my very accurate reply of essentially pay, play, be evaluated and received grade is construed as anything other than 100% accurate, then Lord help "Mr. Truth in Posting."

You get a grade, which is comprised of a mash up of quantifiable measurable like a 60 time or throwing velo and then take the subjective measures the keen eye of the PG scouts put to the kids...put that in the Wonka-vator and viola! You get a grade. If grades don't matter, then PG needs to either get rid of them or whatever, I really don't care. It's just another rainbow for parents and kids to chase...I got a higher grade than Johnny. Because after all, we really only care about validation, right stud?

You’re still missing the point of what the process and PG is all about. It’s not about PG scores. The process is about each player ultimately finding the right place/college to have a quality college baseball experience.  For some people part of the process is PG events. For some people it’s a waste of time and money. PG/Jerry posted many times PG isn’t for everyone. He posted he doesn’t want anyone wasting money. But can you imagine the response if PG started telling dad’s, “Your kid doesn’t belong here. You’re wasting time and money.” Jerry would need a body guard. 

I don’t believe everyone who plays D1 needs to go to GA and FL. There are plenty of other places to be recruited regionally. My son was already seen at SelectFest and Atlantic 100 in the Mid Atlantic/Northeast area. But if you want to see how you stack up against the best PG in GA and FL is where you go. A kid may be ranked in the 500-1000 and isn’t going to change it. But he can go prove to others and himself he belongs on the field with the best.

I think the most important thing to clear up in this entire thread is this:

You don't throw spaghetti OFF a wall to see if it sticks.  You throw it ON the wall!!

RJM posted:

You’re still missing the point of what the process and PG is all about. It’s not about PG scores.

But PG showcases do what? They give you a score? Whether you go there for that or not is immaterial, because you get that score regardless. Those scores factor into their national player rankings. National player rankings on PG play a factor in college scout perception of a player's skills. Granted, they are going to have to pass the eye test, but now you have the opportunity to get an eye test based on the score/grade and PG national ranking. I'm validating the business model, yet vehemently disagree with it.

Playing in a PG tournament is indeed a great place to see if you have a game to play against the big boys, RJM. But you need to put that in context. Very few of the kids who go there end up going against guys throwing 90+. Even though the number of 90+ guys increases every year at the WWBA and other big events, the average FB velo at a WWBA event is low 80's...because you can't go into an event that large without other guys to eat innings. 90+ guys get used sparingly in pool play to save for the playoff round. You chances of going up against a highly nationally ranked stud pitcher are like purchasing a lottery ticket. Those guys are only going to be throwing at LakePoint and if your team is facing them at LakePoint you really should consider a trip to Vegas next, because you are one lucky cat.

My point is, getting to a PG tournament has a purpose of playing higher quality competition in front of college coaches and performing well enough to garner attention. You need to do the leg work ahead of time to ensure you have some coaches at those games to get eyes on you. Not all the competition at PG events is world class, but for the most part its much better than regional tournaments. But again, this all comes at a price.

GARYME,

Your profile says that you are from NY and you are trying to get your catcher son on a D3 roster.

PG tourneys are not usually targeted toward D3 players but I could be wrong. Did you know that. 

I am not trying to be snarky,  just trying to get a read on what exactly is bothering you.

TPM posted:

GARYME,

Your profile says that you are from NY and you are trying to get your catcher son on a D3 roster.

PG tourneys are not usually targeted toward D3 players but I could be wrong. Did you know that. 

I am not trying to be snarky,  just trying to get a read on what exactly is bothering you.

My snark meter must be on the fritz, because I never said a damn thing about my kid and whether or not he has ever gone to a PG event. My beef is with the monetization of college recruiting...period. It's not limited to PG. There are sooooo many people cashing in that produce nothing of value for the athletes, it's really sad. Guys who never compete against D1 guys can't really determine they are D2 and D3 guys until they do, right? Hell, PG WWBA tournaments field as many (or more) mediocre to bad teams as they do good to great teams. This I can tell you first hand. Not their fault, they aren't exactly screening teams for quality when the registration payment comes in. My ire is not based on any particular outcome that has or has not impacted my son, we know where he is at on the spectrum and are blitzing the schools in that area. If he plays ball in college, he plays ball in college. We all know his chances of going pro are about as solid as Rynoattack's chances of landing a coveted guest appearance on his buddy Hannity's program. But the point I am making (and I have received several PMs of people who have been on this board a long while who said they agree with me but won't come out and say it in an open forum) is having tournaments where coaches can come to see many fish in the same pond is not enough...we have to have showcases, now we have virtual evaluation reports, etc...etc...

I fully expect that at some point we will have the ability to send a DNA sample from an amniocentesis to see if Billy is going to be a LHP with a wicked curveball or not

What some might characterize as the "monetization of college recruiting," others might refer to as the "organization of college recruiting." Regardless of how one might wish to label it, there's little doubt that the process of identifying and evaluating players worthy of playing at any of the levels above high school is a great deal much more efficient today than it was 15-to-20 years ago.

I happen to think that PG deserves a fair amount of credit for getting us to this point, but so do a number of other showcase/tournament organizers (some of which have come and gone...anyone remember Team One?), this and other websites focused on the scholastic player, and better organized scouting programs at both the college and professional levels. There's also no question that the internet, itself, deserves some of the credit for serving as the communication vehicle that makes so much of the sharing of information and enhanced visibility that's so important to this more efficient process.

As a result of this, the probability of a player "falling through the cracks" is much less today...and that's a very good thing.

Have some individuals prospered monetarily from this series of related developments? Of course, they have. But, I think it's equally hard to argue that many players and their families have benefited from the maturation of a process that makes it much easier to be identified and considered for additional years in baseball beyond high school than might have been the case in the past.

Boy did this thing take off!!  

People often look for someone else to blame.  You allowed your emotions about baseball, your son, your dreams to be 'monetized' by a business?  I say so what.  Your money, your choice.  If you didn't walk away in time?, your problem, not theirs.

justbaseball posted:

Boy did this thing take off!!  

People often look for someone else to blame.  You allowed your emotions about baseball, your son, your dreams to be 'monetized' by a business?  I say so what.  Your money, your choice.  If you didn't walk away in time?, your problem, not theirs.

FWIW, my son did exactly 1 PG showcase. He performed about as I expected, was graded HIGHER than I expected. That grade has meant diddly squat in his recruiting.

I am judicious where we spend our recruiting budget. Not complaining about anything personal here, it's more a philosophical thing. I was talking to a long-time scout for the Atlanta Braves the other day and he asked what it costs to play a summer on my son's club team. I don't think it's anything outrageous (about $1,600 for the summer, include 2 major regional tournaments, 3 workouts a week) but he was flabbergasted. To me, it's par for the course, but it's about perspective. The old timers cannot believe the $$$$ families are throwing out the window on baseball now days.

I think perspective is critical. I'm willing to bet the people who have responded critically to my posts have probably had kids who played D1 baseball, committed to schools early in the recruiting process, and were essentially the exception. I know RJM produces super off-spring, so he's a no brainer. Rynoattack I think has a kid at Purdue or Wake Forest or some ACC school. Willing to bet the others are of a similar ilk. You likely haven't seen the "average" high school baseball recruiting experience that most recruits experience.

You don’t have to travel to GA and FL to determine if a kid is a D1 prospect or not. There are plenty of regional events to determine fit. The coach of a quality travel team is likely to have a good idea.