pitch counts

Different strokes for different folks. Depends on recovery time, conditioning, weather, and history of effectivness in the next outing. Remember these are kids that think they are invincible. They may feel great, but, is the whole package ready to go. Injuries many times occur when the part of the body is compensating for another part. It's a long season, why push early. Monitor pitch location, that seems to be a good indicator of fatigue.

What kind of shape is the pitcher in?
Has he been earnestly working out in the off season?
What is the weather like when he pitches?

And as rz1 says it is different strokes for different folks-- every play--every body treacts differently

There is no steadfast rule

TRhit

This same thing was discussed in my house last night. My '04 son pitched 53 pitches on tuesday, last night (thursday) he pitched full 7 innings, 93 pitches. To me this seems like alot. I asked this morning how he felt and he said "good". He did tell me coach told him after the game last night he will not pitch again till thursday of next week.

The American Sports Medicine Institute put out some guidelines a few years ago on Max number of pitches and days rest.

Since every pitcher is different, it will not work for everyone, but it does give you an idea.

Pitch Count Guideline

Play every game as if it were your last

People being people, if you ask for a 85 pitch count for your kid and he stays under 95 you have done well. Run after the game to eliminate lactic acid to minimize soreness, take asprin the next day if needed.

Dick Mills pitch count guidelines are optomistic in my very humble opinion. Allowing a high school pitcher go 106 pitches a week in two games max is fine for me. He should know what the limits are. His kid has been cut on, more than once I think.

Dad04,

Not to be argumentative, but from what I know, his kid never had arm problems until he was in the minors.

______________
Never put both feet in your mouth at the same time, because then you don't have a leg to stand on.

Frank

That’s true. Plenty of people believe certain arm injuries, particularly elbow ligament injuries, result from cumulative damage from overuse. Injuries can result from bad genetics, inadequate conditioning, overuse, climate or any combination.

That being said, I don't know the specifics of his sons injury(ies). Perhaps injuries to pitchers are as inevitable as knee injuries are for footballers. I think its a good idea to do all possible, short of retiring, to minimize the risk in order to prevent, or at least postpone the seemingly inevitable. I for one, feel pitch counts are the dirty little secret that coaches regard as tabboo to even discuss with even the player.

BTW John Smoltz is recovering from his 4th elbow surgery. A case for the inevitablity of elbow damage. I'm sure he was on pitch counts since the day he signed.

Here is some information that is on the ASMI.org website

USA Baseball Medical & Safety Advisory Committee
Position Statement on Youth Baseball Injuries
July 2003

Baseball is one of the safest sports available for today's youth. However, many of the serious injuries suffered by adult baseball pitchers may have begun to develop at the youth level. One of the missions of the USA Baseball Medical & Safety Advisory Committee is to provide scientifically based information to its youth baseball members to reduce the risk of injury and maximize the younger player's ability to perform and advance to higher levels.

Pitch Counts
Pitches are counted and monitored for professional, collegiate, and high school pitchers in order for them to reduce the risk of injury. A 1996 survey conducted by the USA Baseball Medical & Safety Advisory Committee (USA Baseball News, 1996) showed that most experts believed pitch counts should be kept for youth pitchers as well. In response to this charge, the committee sponsored an epidemiological study by the American Sports Medicine Institute (ASMI) to look at this issue. This study - published in The American Journal of Sports Medicine in 2002 - showed a significant relationship between the number of pitches thrown and the risk of shoulder and elbow pain in youth baseball. It is the opinion of ASMI and the USA Baseball Medical & Safety Advisory Committee that joint pain indicates the early development of a potentially serious joint injury. Thus pitch count limits are recommended for youth baseball. If - for some valid reason - a league is unable or unwilling to enact pitch count limits, the league should limit the number of batters faced. Since 9 to 12 year-old baseball pitchers average about 5 pitches per batter, pitch count recommendations can be converted into batter limitations by dividing by 5. However, pitch limitations are a better choice than batter limitations for accurately monitoring and controlling risk of overuse.

Pitch Types
The 2002 study by the ASMI also showed that youth baseball pitchers who throw curveballs or sliders have an increased risk of elbow and shoulder pain. Therefore, youth pitchers should avoid throwing breaking pitches in order to reduce the risk of future overuse injuries.

Pitching Mechanics and Physical Conditioning
A study by ASMI published in 1999 (Journal of Biomechanics) showed that elite pitchers of all levels use similar mechanics, but significantly more force at higher levels. Therefore, pitchers should develop proper mechanics as early as possible and include more year-round physical conditioning as their body develops.

Multiple Appearances
Because a youth pitcher usually stays in the game at another position after pitching, the player is eligible to return to the mound later in the game, according to the rules of baseball. While it may be good strategy to have a starting pitcher come back in and finish a game, it is not a good idea from a health and safety perspective. Muscles, tendons, and ligaments need time to "cool down" after physical activity, just like they need to "warm up" before activity.

Showcases
Showcases are established to give young players the opportunity to display their skills to scouts at higher levels of baseball. Unfortunately, showcases often occur near the end of the players' season, when players are often fatigued and require rest and recovery. In other instances, players participate in a showcase after a prolonged period since their league ended and without adequate preparation to throw hard again. It is without a doubt that young throwers will try to overthrow at these events in an effort to impress the scouts and coaches, which further increases the risk of serious arm injury.

Multiple Leagues
In order to get more opportunity to develop skills, many young players play in multiple leagues. Although the amount of pitching in a league is often limited by league rules or the judgment of its coaches, individual pitchers sometimes exceed such limitations by pitching in more than one league at a time. The strength and skills needed to be a successful pitcher are developed by repetition; however, a pitcher must also give his body time to rest and recover in order to optimize his development.

Year-Round Baseball
In certain parts of warm-weather states (Florida, Texas, California, etc.) baseball leagues are available in all seasons. However, the principle of periodization states that an athlete should have different periods and activities in his annual conditioning schedule. Specifically, baseball pitchers need a period of "active rest" after their season ends and before the next preseason begins. During active rest a pitcher is encouraged to participate in physical activities that do not include a great amount of overhand throwing.

Recommendations
Based upon its expertise and review of existing studies, the USA Baseball Medical & Safety Advisory Committee makes the following recommendations for minimizing a pitcher's risk of future serious arm injury and maximizing his chance of success

· Coaches and parents should listen and react appropriately to a youth pitcher when he/she complains about arm pain. A pitcher who complains or shows signs of arm pain during a game should be removed immediately from pitching. Parents should seek medical attention if pain is not relieved within four days or if the pain recurs immediately the next time the player pitches. League officials should inform parents about this consideration.

· Pitch counts should be monitored and regulated in youth baseball. Recommended limits for youth pitchers are as follows:
9-10 year old pitchers
50 pitches per game
75 pitches per week
1000 pitches per season
2000 pitches per year
11-12 year old pitchers
75 pitches per game
100 pitches per week
1000 pitches per season
3000 pitches per year
13-14 year old pitchers
75 pitches per game
125 pitches per week
1000 pitches per season
3000 pitches per year

Pitch count limits pertain to pitches thrown in games only. These limits do not include throws from other positions, instructional pitching during practice sessions, and throwing drills, which are important for the development of technique and strength. Backyard pitching practice after a pitched game is strongly discouraged.

· Pitchers should not throw breaking pitches (curveballs, sliders, etc.) in competition until their bones have matured (indicated by puberty) - typically about 13 years of age. In order to succeed, a youth pitcher should focus on good mechanics, a fast fastball, a good change-up, and good control.

· Pitchers should develop proper mechanics as early as possible and include more year-round physical conditioning as their body develops.

· A Pitcher should be prohibited from returning to the mound in a game once he/she has been removed as the pitcher.

· Baseball players - especially pitchers - are discouraged from participating in showcases due to the risk of injury. The importance of "showcases" should be de-emphasized, and at the least, pitchers should be permitted time to appropriately prepare.

· Baseball pitchers are discouraged from pitching for more than one team in a given season.

· Baseball pitchers should compete in baseball no more than nine months in any given year, as periodization is needed to give the pitcher's body time to rest and recover. For at least three months a year, a baseball pitcher should not play any baseball, participate in throwing drills, or participate in other stressful overhead activities (javelin throwing, football quarterback, softball, competitive swimming, etc.).

References
Andrews JR, Chmielewski T, Escamilla RF, Fleisig GS, Wilk KE. Conditioning program for professional baseball pitchers. American Sports Medicine Institute, Birmingham, AL, 1997.
Andrews JR, Fleisig GS. How many pitches should I allow my child to throw? USA Baseball News April, 1996
Fleisig GS, Barrentine SW, Zheng N, Escamilla RF, Andrews JR. Kinematic and kinetic comparison of baseball pitching among various levels of development. Journal of Biomechanics 32(12):1371-1375, 1999.
Lyman S, Fleisig GS, Andrews JR, Osinski ED. Effect of pitch type, pitch count, and pitching mechanics on risk of elbow and shoulder pain in youth baseball pitchers. The American Journal of Sports Medicine 30(4):463-468, 2002.

Additional publications and research findings available at www.asmi.org

the Florida Bombers
"I love the HSBBW"

Dad04,

Dicks son never had any problems until he hit the minors. It's been said that if you are a pitcher it no a question of if you will have probelms it's a matter of when.


But as he points out in his article , he didn't come up with these numbers he got them from the American Sports Medicine institute. They use to have the same chart on thier site, but when I looked earlier today, I couldn't find it.

Play every game as if it were your last

The original post was about pitch counts and days of rest for varsity pitchers.All of the information from ASMI is great,my son has followed their stretching and exercises and has
had no problems yet.This season,the "brain trust" has come up with the plan of pitching a
few innings every game.This is what is more troubling than just a pitch count=injuries occur
over time when a pitcher is constantly pitching
on short rest.This is not an opinion,it is a fact.Coaches, and especially parents and pitchers should monitor the rest and time between starts.It is more important to have the
proper rest between appearances then just counting pitches.If you throw 100 pitches,then rest a week, it is a lot safer for your arm instead of throwing 40-50 pitches then coming back and pitching another 40-50 in 2-3 days.Over
time,the short rest will lead to problems.

Since my son is the #1 pitcher on a team with weak pitching and he will play 1B when not pitching my husband and I met with the AD and Coach to discuss max pitch counts in a week and rest between starts. Taking into consideration there is pen and warm up between innings, infield practice everyday, it can be a lot of stress on the arm, no matter how great shape the player is in.
My son has excellent mechanics and injury free. Yet he does have 4 years of bb in college and maybe pro ball. To me, HS ball is not worth risking injury. Every extra pitch thrown is more wear and tear on the arm that shows up later.
Ballsdownsouth
You have questioned a 146 pc count in three days in the beginning of the season. To me this is way too much. Everyone is different, but for our son's future, we made it quite clear we will not allow him to sacrifice his health for a win.
I do believe this has been discussed before but Bighit has a nice recovery formula he has shared in another thread.

Thanks for the posts. I was just wondering because my son has been pitching well and his velocity has been really good (consistently in the 90's), but then the other day his velocity had really dropped (never even hit 90, more like average 85). He said his arm was dead before the game started. Unfortunatley about 20 scouts showed up to watch him pitch (bummer). Those that had seen him pitch before said that it was obvious that he was fatigued. He had thrown 145 pitches the week before in two different games. His last game was Saturday at 94 pitches and then Thursday (the day the scouts game and his arm was tired) he pitched again another 90 pitches. Luckily the preseason tournaments will be over after next week and I probably won't have to worry about it. Thanks again.

No WAy

Is that 145 pitches each in two separate games or a total of 145 pitches for two games?

TRhit

145 was the total for two games.

If the days between are ample and the weather warm that would not seem to be a problem

TRhit

No Way 90,

I'm just the mom of a HS senior RHP, not an expert, but if your son said his arm felt "dead" before the Thursday game, and his velocity was down, that would seem to answer the question for that particular week: his arm was tired and he needed more rest between outings. As other folks have said before, it depends on the individual pitcher, his mechanics and conditioning, weather, how many pitches per inning (90 pitches in 4 innings is a lot worse than 90 pitches in 7 innings). But if a kid's arm feels tired at the start of a mound appearance ... he needed more rest!

One other rule of thumb that I read a few years ago, that has seemed to make sense for my son and is very simple and easy to remember:

On AVERAGE, a high school pitcher should have at least 1 hour of rest for every 1 game pitch thrown.

So, 2 innings at 24 pitches on a Thursday means he might be able to safely pitch on Friday night. For your question: "For example, if you pitched 90 pitches on Saturday, when should you be able to safely pitch again another 90 pitches?", the answer would be ... wait until Wednesday.

Again, this is just a recommendation for minimum rest for the AVERAGE situation, and each pitcher will vary, but this guideline has been helpful to us.

MN Mom,

I have to tell you some of these posts are nightmarish! to Baseonballs50, you gotta to be kidding me that you met with the coach and AD. The coach and AD must be crazy for meeting with you! Pitch in college and Pro? the only way he gets there is through the school! who do you think they come to when they want official grades! any coach who has a kid with parents like you better make sure when he recommends the kid that he informs the college coach of this meeting. If you already ave your sights set on MLB then it could happen in college also!

I love the parents who feel the need to address coaches, do you think your parents would have ever do this? no way, but different generations. You are the people responsible for the qualified coaches not coaching! as they do not want to deal with you! So blame yourself if a underqualified coach hurts the kids arm!

BaseballCoach,
I will answer this in a pm. I will say for the record that not one school who recruited my signed 04 son called the HS coach for his opinion.

BaseballcoachinPa. You are a high school baseball coach and beyond reproach. Yeah, ok. No one is interested what someones parents would do. Thats a poor argument.

quote:

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the only way he gets there is through the school!

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What is your point? You like to play god? The fact is grades are available through the office and the National Clearinghouse, high school stats are ignored by college coachs/pro scouts, and the recommendation of the high school coach is not needed to play baseball after high school, at least not within 200 miles of me.

quote:

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You are the people responsible for the qualified coaches not coaching! as they do not want to deal with you!

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I am not concerned with who won't coach at the school. I only deal with the coach at the school. I did not pick the school or the coach at the school, just deal with it the best we can.

quote:

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So blame yourself if a underqualified coach hurts the kids arm!

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Thats why he got a pitch limit from me lower than the 115 limit he blew through for game 1. He is not qualified, and you and I are in agreement.

BaseballcoachinPA, you could not be more wrong about the impact of HS coaches in Florida, you are absolutely clueless.

quote:

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Pitch in college and Pro? the only way he gets there is through the school!

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Wrong, wrong wrong! In Florida and Texas you get to the colleges through your summer and fall teams not through the HS's. My son's College coach never spoke to his HS coach. They spoke to his summer and fall coaches who have far more experience and a better record of developing talent than the HS coach.

quote:

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who do you think they come to when they want official grades!

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Well they certainly don't come to the coach. Have you heard of the guidance department. Are you saying that if you don't like a kid or parents that you would withhold or falsify grades? Get a grip!

quote:

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any coach who has a kid with parents like you better make sure when he recommends the kid that he informs the college coach of this meeting. If you already ave your sights set on MLB then it could happen in college also!

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First of all, you have no idea who this kid is and you are way off base. If some Podunk coach doesn't hurt his arm he does have a shot at playing for pay. Second, why would you ffel the ned to trash a kid and his parents? Because they dares ask you about pitch count and after you ignored them called a meeting with the AD? If that is your reasoning then you are an egomaniac.

quote:

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I love the parents who feel the need to address coaches, do you think your parents would have ever do this? no way, but different generations.

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Exactly, so quit being a dinosaur. Hey we used to ride horses instead of cars. Grow with the times.

quote:

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You are the people responsible for the qualified coaches not coaching! as they do not want to deal with you! So blame yourself if a underqualified coach hurts the kids arm!

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I would much rtather have a coach who listens and is less informed about pitching than a dinosaur who knows less about pitching than the players pitching coach does, but refuses to let someone else instruct "his" players. The problem with guys like you is that you think that you know everything. Most HS coaches are not qualified to move pitchers on to the next level anymore. Times have changed and quality instruction is available. College coaches are wanting more and more polish on college pitchers than they used to.

Your post was offensive.

PS, when a kid has 20-30 scouts coming to see all of his games, then he may have a future in pro ball. You assumption about the kid and parent was uninformed at best.

the Florida Bombers
"I love the HSBBW"

Nice to know the parents of pitchers understand!

baseonballs50,

It is too bad that some poster who lists himself as a coach would make his first post here an unfounded bashing of a parent and player he knows nothing about. I don't know you either, but I've been around here a while and have never seen anything in your posts to indicate that you would be any kind of "problem parent". Don't worry about it ...

baseonballs50...keep on looking out for you son.... ....good luck to him in his pursuits and in finding his way....

and may it be because he's healthy!

I have two words to add to this post.


Charles Benoit.

Keller...how is he doing by the way?

One bad outing (his first)against Gonzaga one good outing against UC Riverside.

They are using him in Middle relief for some mop up innings I guess to let him settle in.

My son was taken out of the game this afternoon after a pitch count of 60.
We feel that we did the best thing regarding letting the Coach and AD know our expectations. We appreciate the fact that he respected our concerns. Did not dismiss us as whining coddling parents.
He may have come out regardless of whether we had the conversation or not, but it is reassuring to know that we are on the same page.

Baseoballs50, Did you win?

the Florida Bombers
"I love the HSBBW"

I would yield to MLB...the best trained, conditioned and paid pitchers take off 4 days minimum..mostly 5. A HS pitcher that wants to get to the next level healthy, will not pitch on less than 4 days rest provided he threw 80-90 pitches. Pitching on Tuesday then Friday for a starter or position player/pitcher is a recipe for injury.

The arm is taxed and lactic acid buildup is not able to be recupped when it hits 25+ pitches in one inning, and I continue to see young pitchers go 27,28,29 pitches in a tough inning, and the coach sends them right back out...BAD IDEA. Their arm can not recover in 10-15 minutes.

It always comes back to common sense...I disagree that it based on the individual or his conditioning etc...it may make a difference in his performance, but not his arm care or any persuant injury.

Some say their are good 80-90 pitches and tough 80-90 pitches...it's still 80-90 pitches. Error on the side of restraint...it's the best policy. My son's summer team plays at many high level tournaments and he plays with them because he has a coach that recognizes that 4-5 innings is all a prospective college coach or scout needs to see..mostly 2-3 innings is his limit. They are a team and winning a game @ that level is important, but for the TEAM, not necessarily the pitcher. The top summer programs that I have witnessed go by the same philosophy.

I like the the 1 hr rest per 1 game pitch...1 1/2 I think is safer.

This debate will never end as parents think it will never happen to their son...if you are willing to take that chance, and believe your son or his coach, then the result is on you the parent.

MHO only, but based on seeing many years of winning @ the cost of a young man.

Good luck to all!

"If you can imagine it you can create it. If you can dream it, you can become it". William Arthur Ward

"Baseball is Life"

Starzz,

Starzz,

I have a couple of questions. After an outing should a pitcher play catch the next day? Is it ok to throw hard and play catch 2 days later? is it ok to take a bullpen on the third day? Are you advocating full rest and no throwing? 1 1/2 days rest would be nice, but 100 ptiches would be 7 days rest. lol

the Florida Bombers
"I love the HSBBW"

Pitch counts and time between outings depends on the individual pitcher, his age, the weather conditions of his outing etc etc

This is like arguing religion and politics-- there is never one right answer

TRhit

My son is a P/1B/CF. I have alot of respect for his coach because of the way he treats my son. He asks HIM how he feels after pitching and then he really listens. Example, TJ threw 7 inning, 93 pitches on thursday. They were playing a tounament , so on friday he asked him, how his arm felt. The answer was tired. Tj told him he didn't feel like it could play CF, so he put him at 1B. He has told Tj more than once "I will never do anything to hurt you". "When you go off to ULL, I want you to be in the best possible condition". He normally pitches on 4-5 days rest. Pitched thursay , will pitch today.

Baseballdownsouth,
That was really thoughtful that the coach asked your son how he felt on friday, but if he was REALLY concerned for his health, for a signed pitcher, he should have had him do nothing the next day. Key word there in your sentence is "possible". Friday should be his recovery day.
Just my opinion of course!

baseballdownsouth and baseonballs50,

I understand the concern about playing ANY position the day after throwing 90 pitches, but 1B has worked out well for my 04 RHP as his secondary position. According to things we have read (ASMI etc.) and my son's own experience, it seems to be fine to do some light throwing the day after pitching (and definitely some running). My son just takes the approach that when playing 1B right after pitching, he won't throw hard enough to put strain on his arm. It hasn't been a noticeable handicap in games.

This is another interesting thread, and to paraphrase what TR said ... it is like discussing politics ... there may be no right answer and everybody has a different opinion.

We have noticed, though, over the course of our son's experience AND watching and knowing other pitchers, that it seems that the pitchers (especially in high school and travel ball) who have the "rubber arms", who can turn around on short rest and throw again, who are always willing to take the ball from the coach to help the team, eventually end up with arm problems either just before or just after their high school career is over. It seems unfortunate that their parents weren't "problem" enough to the coaches and continued to let it happen to the point that their sons' pitching days were ended before they should have been.

Our son has always been one who recovered slowly ... that is just him. He has made adjustments over his pitching career, however, that have helped his recovery ... heck, he's a junior in college and he told us just last night that he and his pitching coach are adjusting his work between starts to improve his arm flexibility, recovery, and hopefully bring his velocity back up to 'fall ball level".

So, I guess what I am saying is that there should be some kind of limit on pitch counts and frequency of throwing that takes into consideration the age and development of the pitcher, that there should be specific work between starts/appearances that helps the arm recover, AND that these are adjusted to the individual pitcher.

And finally, I am in agreement with how baseballs50 and her husband handled their son with regard to conversing with the AD and coach about what they felt was appropriate for THEIR son. After all ... the coaches are paid to win games, not necessarily develop players. (Would be nice if they did both at the high school level.) And we all know of coaches who will try to win at any cost ... so somebody who has a personal and vested interest in the individual player needs to step forward and protect the player's future.

JMHO ...

ShapsMa

Highlandermom,
Great post from another concerned parent about their son's future.
You are a regular webster who is very much respected for your opinions. I don't think that anyone would challenge or disagree with what you have said. Maybe it is the way you said it.
Some of us are and we are continually wondering why with legit concerns we are labeled as problem parents to some of the coaches that post. TR is correct, there is no right (or wrong) answer. Everyone has their own opinions.
So therefore I have started another topic addressed to coaches, who might view themselves as a well informed concerned parent such as yourself.

Mn mom, I agree about throwing the day after. Remember people, tht is not pitching just throwing. Good post.

the Florida Bombers
"I love the HSBBW"