Playing for a bad team

Ten run rule!

My son "played down" to a national championship D3 that went to four straight league championships, NCAA regionals, and one CWS while he was there. I have said this for a while.... It is a hell of a lot more fun playing for a winning team than a mediocre one regardless of level. Also championship games; whether league, NCAA regionals, or CWS at any level are SO much more fun and exciting.

Winning puts a spring in your step and makes the trip to the hotel bar after the game so much more fun!

As always JMO.

@BOF - I can only speak to the youth travel side of it. Winning is entirely different than losing from the spectator side. Everyone is happy and hanging out after a win. After a loss, especially a bad one, everyone quickly and silently packs up and gets out of there as fast as possible without saying a word. It's always weird and uncomfortable.

For the player perspective, of course winning is better. That's the whole point of playing....to compete and prevail by winning.

In my 1st year coaching a Summer team in the "strongest" "18 and under" League in Northern California. Our players ages 14-18 selected from 5 HS in Santa Rosa.We lost 25 games and won 9.

After every game I asked the opposing team coach to talk with our players. Two of the Coaches, I selected to coach our American Teams to Korea and Japan. The message was similar. "Learn from every game". When you hit a single, think 2 bases until the defense stops you. I requested pro scouts and local College Coaches to talk with our players.

In the second year, I selected HS players by "tryouts" during the HS season with the core players approving the "new" player. Our record improved to 25 wins and 14. We played in Tournaments in Nevada, California and Oregon.

The players and family's paid NO $$$ to play.

Often our batting line up included 6 Left Handed hitters. We used the "platoon" system so the players knew when they were expected to play.

Bob

@Francis7 posted:

Looking at various colleges at various levels, there are some programs out there that seem to struggle pretty consistently like those bad teams that I mentioned..

Anyone have any experience or insight on this situation at the college level? If the program struggles this badly, does the fact that it's "college baseball" wash away the consistent losing and frequent beat downs? Or, does the consistent poor team performance situation take away from the pleasure that's supposed to come from playing and watching baseball?

Son had committed and attended one of those "bottom tier" poor record D1 baseball schools. But it also was one of the top academic schools in the country where he could earn a chemical engineering degree. He heard from some about going to a weaker program rather than Big State U (top 25).

But he (and his same year recruiting class) liked the idea about getting an opportunity to play as a freshman and the challenge in turning the program and culture around.  They did and won two league championships and a spot in the NCAAs. Four of the eight in his class were drafted. 2 others were initially scouted by MLB, but came down with injuries - one would play in Olympics. Not a bad experience at all. In addition, the team got to experience "Big Time" baseball in its yearly nice weather early season spring trips.

@Ripken Fan - what was the key in turning it around? Different coaches? Better recruiting? Both? Something else?

My son also played on bad teams for 13-14u. The team was stacked the year before so we thought he was joining a solid group. Turns out 2/3 of the team left. He was recruited to play on a stacked 15u team which was fun. Then all the kids that left the 13u team regrouped last year for the 16u season. My son had fun but the team wasn’t nearly as good as some of the other parents expected.

My son's best friend was always the best kid in the age group and the first player taken in the youth drafts.  This meant that he was going to the worst teams, often with dysfunctional coaches.  He had a series of bad experiences which soured him on baseball.  He is now a starting D1 linebacker.

@TerribleBPthrower posted:

My son also played on bad teams for 13-14u. The team was stacked the year before so we thought he was joining a solid group. Turns out 2/3 of the team left. He was recruited to play on a stacked 15u team which was fun. Then all the kids that left the 13u team regrouped last year for the 16u season. My son had fun but the team wasn’t nearly as good as some of the other parents expected.

From my experience, those parents usually have above average kids that played with a grade below them for most if not all their youth. By the time 14/15/16u rolls around they are forced to start playing more kids from their actual grade and grades above. It evens up the playing field quite a bit, and people start to understand they may not have been as good as they once believed they were. When my oldest (March Bday) played 14u we made it a point to play up even further against 15/16u teams. It helped that we had quite a few talented pitchers, but as a team we were a very young 14u team. If you have been around baseball long enough you’ll know that the speed of the game really changes for kids at this point. I’ll be honest, our team ended up with a 500 record, but they took a couple real beatings that year. However, they came out the other end in a much better place to move forward. We made the point to work on development rather than just winning. The same can’t be said for the kids in his grade that played 13u because of a good Bday. Of course if you ask some of those parents little Johnny raked all year, won every tournament, and now is a lock to make Varsity as a 9th grader! Never mind the fact he swung a drop 10 green cap and only ever played against middle schoolers. Too many parents and kids get caught up in all the hype and don’t take the time to stop and evaluate the big picture.  

I guess my real point to all of this is “bad team” versus “good team” is sometimes hard to define if you get caught up in the moment.  Jm2c…

10u and 15u were the most winningest teams my son played on. They would go into tournaments and win them. True confession: While it was nice that they won and exciting for the boys, there were times when we were at the field for 8+ hours because they kept winning and we would whisper to ourselves "It wouldn't be heartbreaking if they lost this game because then we could finally go home."

I guess that is one "perk" (?) of playing for a losing college program. You don't have to figure out the logistics of going to the NCAA tournament.

coming back to the question raised by ...  Francis7:  "Anyone have any experience or insight on this situation at the college level?"  How is the college baseball experience and 4 yr outcome effected by “bad team” versus “good team” factor?

When it is time for my 2024 son to make his decision - how much weight should the college program's "winning" (or losing) history factor into the decision?

Assuming all other factors being equal, Should I encourage my son to go to a college that is +200 miles further away from home to play for a program that has a winning history and to avoid a much closer to home program that hasn't had a winning season in ten years?  My son has never played on a baseball team with a losing record, I think it is best to avoid a college program that has a history of not winning much.

My son's last losing season in any sport was in 3rd grade rec basketball season, only two kids on the team could dribble with their eyes up - I was the coach that insisted that all ten kids get equal playing time - we didn't win a single game, and my son and wife asked me to never coach again.

@ReluctantO'sFan posted:

From my experience, those parents usually have above average kids that played with a grade below them for most if not all their youth. By the time 14/15/16u rolls around they are forced to start playing more kids from their actual grade and grades above. It evens up the playing field quite a bit, and people start to understand they may not have been as good as they once believed they were. When my oldest (March Bday) played 14u we made it a point to play up even further against 15/16u teams. It helped that we had quite a few talented pitchers, but as a team we were a very young 14u team. If you have been around baseball long enough you’ll know that the speed of the game really changes for kids at this point. I’ll be honest, our team ended up with a 500 record, but they took a couple real beatings that year. However, they came out the other end in a much better place to move forward. We made the point to work on development rather than just winning. The same can’t be said for the kids in his grade that played 13u because of a good Bday. Of course if you ask some of those parents little Johnny raked all year, won every tournament, and now is a lock to make Varsity as a 9th grader! Never mind the fact he swung a drop 10 green cap and only ever played against middle schoolers. Too many parents and kids get caught up in all the hype and don’t take the time to stop and evaluate the big picture.  

I guess my real point to all of this is “bad team” versus “good team” is sometimes hard to define if you get caught up in the moment.  Jm2c…

The funny thing is the stacked 15u team had a losing record. They played the Wilson Premier and the other big fall tournaments. Played 5 of the top 12 teams and went 2-3, including beating the then #1 team. 2 of the 3 losses were by 1 run in the last inning. The coach always asked the tournaments to give him the toughest pool.

No parents on that team complained at all. It was refreshing

MJD dad;

Maybe you son can make a difference on the College.

It takes a "positive" attitude with 10 players and the Coaches to "turn" the program to a winner. We achieved this at SSU.

Bob

I played three sports through high school and college baseball. I only went through three losing seasons. Two were my first two years of LL at nine and ten. But we played pickup baseball all day, all summer.

If you want to suffer get beat up playing football on a losing team. Junior high was grades 7-9. The junior high was new. I was new to the district in 9th grade. Several of the previous year’s 8th graders (mostly athletes) were allowed to stay where they were one more year. Try playing QB on a 1-7 football team surrounded by very little talent. I met a lot of the opposing team … in the backfield.

Later in the fall a very talented athlete transferred in. We dominated basketball and baseball. Two games per week with two dominate pitchers works. The best defense is double digit whiffs.

My son played on one losing 12u basketball team. O-S (knees) forced the three tallest kids to sit out the season. My daughter knew how to play volleyball. She had just grown to 5’10”. The first year our high school had girls volleyball the team only won one match. They struck mediocre by her junior year. It was offset with six conference titles in seven years in basketball and softball.

I'm wondering about this whole "parents going to watch college games" thing.  I'm sure it's nice if you can do it, but it's also fine if you don't.  It's your son's team, not yours.  So presumably he's getting out of it what he wants.  Anyone choosing to play for a losing team knows what they're getting into.  I dunno, maybe they like the team atmosphere, the sense of belonging, the regular athletic activity.  On here most parents' sons are on fairly winning teams, I think (or if not, they don't say so!).  There are some Caltech parents, they have said this:

https://community.hsbaseballwe...64#52404907965448164

https://community.hsbaseballwe...08#54660024905417808

Of course, no-one questions why you go to Caltech.  But they might question why you choose to play on a consistently losing team once you get there.

posted:

@Ripken Fan - what was the key in turning it around? Different coaches? Better recruiting? Both? Something else?

@Francis7 It was very talented recruited class. RC said that up front. In fact the first player drafted from this class (and from the league overall) was the fourth player (of the 8) to receive an offer and commit. The players (and parents) bonded early on.  In an unusual twist, 5 of the players were within a 2 hr drive to the school and a SP parents flew in for every weekend series. The players came in motivated and wouldn't accept the losing culture. The seniors and juniors in particular took notice. The freshmen were willing (and did) put in extra work at the field. Interesting in son's first game (@ Texas A&M), the coach started freshmen in the first four positions in the line-up. When they reached the league championship freshman year and lost 2-1 on a walk off HBP or wild pitch, the coach commented to some that they were "A year ahead of schedule."

Coaching staff was the same as the previous year, and the HC and RC were there all 4 years. There is perhaps another item that I knew would never be a possibility again given the success of the team. Son's freshman year, the HC would not allow any players to join a fraternity. (This had not been the case previously).

mjd-dad

Youngest son committed to Tennessee when they had not done anything in the SEC in years. They had been cellar dwellers and not even gotten to go to the SEC championships for years.  His dream was to play in Hoover at least once and his wildest dream was to get to go to Omaha.  New coaches, new players and dreams come true.  Last year as first full year he got to pitch in Hoover in championship and got to go to Omaha.  Did not get to actually pitch in Omaha, warmed up both games, but got to coach first base 2 innings.  Unreal experience.  So you can't go on the past to know what the future will hold.  They may not get back to either is his time but it was a once in a lifetime experience.

I once heard a story - and who knows if it's true? - about a D1 non-starter who was a junior.

As the story goes, kid realized: I'm making a tremendous sacrifice on my personal life and social activity to be a member of this team. I'm probably never getting off the bench. I'm not going pro, and, if I do, it's basically just to fill roster space so the real prospects have games to play. This is a waste of my time. I'm quitting baseball and just focusing on getting my degree.

Again, who knows if it's true but it sounds realistic.

Maybe playing on a winner with a chance to be part of a championship team makes all that an easier pill to swallow and worth gutting it out until the end?

And, maybe, playing on a team that loses 70 to 75% of the time makes it a lot easier to walk away?

Do losing programs have higher attrition rates?

I'm not sure what your deal is with losing D1 programs but you don't know the details that led to players choosing that school. And I know you didn't explicitly say D1, but it's been a theme. I also don't think it's fair to continually look down on losing programs the same way it wouldn't be fair for someone to look down on your son because he is at a D2 as opposed to a D1. As you've mentioned - your sons school was a good fit for him. That is probably the case for a lot of the kids at those schools as well.

One of mine is at a P5, the other is committed to what I consider to be a good mid major program. They both had offers from losing programs - they were very enticing. The youngest had P5 offers and entertained very generous offers from schools that will only win 15-20 games a year. Why - he would not have seen a single bill in his 4-5 years at the school unless he opted into the deluxe meal plan.

He chose a school where an NCAA tournament berth will be dependent on whether they win their conference. That is fine with me - it's a great fit and it's cheap. I'd prefer for him to be in a good situation with the right people than be at a P5 on 25% with a coaching change imminent, knowing he was already starting at a disadvantage.

We had a player commit to us recently. He had an offer from neary every CWS program. He has no business coming to our program. His mom has colon cancer and we're 1.5hrs from home. Our coach is letting him go home on weekends in the fall - nobody has an issue with it.

I talked to the parents of a kid on our HS team. He committed to a school the oldest had an offer from. The dad mentioned the plans to build a new stadium and renovate the locker room as a factor in the decision. That was the same thing I heard on our visit up there 6 years ago - they were waiting for the admins to give the green light. They are still waiting on that green light.

This isn't an attack, don't get it twisted. But you don't know what you don't know and it's not fair to judge. The most enjoyable weekend of baseball I've had as a spectator was a 3 game spanking on opening weekend. I also saw five first round picks play that weekend with more on the way. Some people just enjoy watching their kid(s) play baseball.

I didn't mind playing on a bad D3 team because I wasn't very good myself.  I was just grateful to be on the team.  Hardly threw at all freshman year but was  the # 1 or #2 starter the next three years. Loved the game, loved competing. Wish I could start one more game on the mound, and then one more after that, and another, and.....

FWIW, my question doesn't only pertain to D1. There are also D2 and D3 programs out there that consistently lose twice as much as they win and the question pertains to them as well. I meant college baseball as a whole.

And, I agree that the school and education come first. You should pick a school based on that and not the strength of the baseball program. That said, no matter what the school, no one is forcing you to play baseball and that's always a decision to be made.

My son plays on a rebuilding D2 team.  Got lots of playing time as a freshman.  (started every game but 1 I believe).  Between baseball, football and academics gets a full ride (school is very expensive).  One of our family friends son was a high school phenom...went to a local D2 and for whatever reason, hardly ever played.  Told me only reason my kid is on field is that his coach was his high school coach.  Makes me ask, would your player rather go to a prestigious (baseball wise) school, for less money, and sit....or go to a school where he loves the coaches and vice versa, plays all the time, but the team is rebuilding? Son's friends always tell him he could go to a better program...but winning isnt always the only factor

It’s amazing how much recruiting has changed. Showcases and travel tournaments allow players to get in front of the schools they want to be seen by. Some kids start thinking about college ball and where at fourteen years old.

Growing up I assumed I would play baseball as long as I was in school. But I didn’t spend time dwelling on it or planning. Where I would go was all about education. I assumed I would attend the college (a D3) where I would become a 6th generation legacy. All recruiting was word of mouth by baseball people. Junior year my high school coach told me I was being checked out by colleges that were D1’s. My reaction was, “Wow! They think I can play there.”

I had no grasp of what I was getting into. I thought college ball was just advanced high school ball. I loved playing ball. I wanted to keep playing. I had no idea it was a very time consuming job.

Son played on very good travel teams thru 9U thru 17U (with the exception of 14U).   Had an above average HS team....most wins in a 3 year stretch in school history.  It was a lot of fun.  Fast forward to college.  He went to a mid-major that was less than an hour from home.   The 4 years of watching that team was brutal.  Never won more than 17 games and didn't make the conference tourney once.  Strangest coaching decisions I've ever seen in all 4 years.   Guys who could hit didn't....the worst hitters on the team batted way too often.  Son really liked his teammates, but traveling 5-10 hours on a bus for a 3 game weekend and rarely winning more than 1 was really old by the end of his 4th season.