Politics and high school ball

There's only one way to beat Politics in Sport's.

Be so good that the Coach would be a Fool for cutting such a talented player.

EH

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Originally posted by theEH:
There's only one way to beat Politics in Sport's.

Be so good that the Coach would be a Fool for cutting such a talented player.

EH

Not a bad start.

Another would be to ban parental donations over a certain small amount. Of course the economy may take care of this - or make it worse.... ?

I do not think we can ever elimante politics from sports. You are right the kid who is just head and shoulders above everyone is usually safe. With three boys I have seen first hand politics where it has effected my son and others. I have told my kids that in the real world it is there as well.

I have seen several dads who have been coaches at the hs level and their kids make the varsity and play over kids who are actually better. I have gone through it on summer teams where the coaches kid plays a certain position. That kid plays the majority of the time in that position. The coach last year put my son in at that position in a game for 3 innings and my son made several plays and the assistant coach told my son he did not know he played that position and graet job. However, that was the last time the head coach subbed my son into that position. Another funny story is when my son was in 9th he beat out a senior on varsity at 3rd. After a game the mom of the senior approached the head coach after the game and had her finger in his facing screaming and yelling. I told my wife that the coach would start her son next game over our son. My wife told me no way. Next game the coach started the senior and around the 3rd inning he had committed so many errors he put my son back in and that was the end.

I know of so many instances of politics it is almost funny. Looking back however, very few of those kids that played due to politics ever made the move to the next level or if they did it did not play out well for them. I have told my kids hard work and hustle will eventually win out. I have also had them play several different positions so they are more valuable and that if there is a better kid or politics they could switch positions and win out.

As they eventually move to the next level such as college politics go away. You do not see too many parents crying to college coaches as they will not stand for it.

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I have gone through it on summer teams

Let's not get into travel teams. Dads can start travel teams and not be held to any level of accountability. In high school there's an AD, principal and board over the coach.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 55mom:

Another would be to ban parental donations over a certain small amount.

QUOTE]

We took care of this by establishing 2 things:

1 - A Dugout Club run by parents

2 - A yearly Dugout club fee per family.

Works like a charm!

There are still many hs programs that allow dads to coach. How does that work out? I am sure there are many dads that are quite good. I know a dad who coached and flat out told me the reason he was coaching was to have his kid play. He told me that if he did not coach his kid may not make the team.

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Another funny story is when my son was in 9th he beat out a senior on varsity at 3rd. After a game the mom of the senior approached the head coach after the game and had her finger in his facing screaming and yelling. I told my wife that the coach would start her son next game over our son. My wife told me no way. Next game the coach started the senior and around the 3rd inning he had committed so many errors he put my son back in and that was the end.

This might be a case where a coach did this just to shut up the parent and / or prove to the kid he wasn't as good as your son. Reason I think this might be is he put your son back in and left alone. The coaches who cave will stick with the senior.

Myself personally whenever a parent "discussed" things with me I tried my hardest to not hold it against the son. What I have found works is I calmly reply to them "What do you expect to come out of this conversation? Do you think that I am going to just put your son overtop everyone else just becasue that is what you want? What if I get the parents of the other kid over here - would you look them in the face and tell them your son is better than theirs?" That usually ends everything.

Politics exist and I'm not going to try and say they don't but not every sport in high school is corrupt with politics.

Shamrock

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There are still many hs programs that allow dads to coach. How does that work out? I am sure there are many dads that are quite good. I know a dad who coached and flat out told me the reason he was coaching was to have his kid play. He told me that if he did not coach his kid may not make the team.

I have met similar coaches as well. In fact, a current asst. coach fits in that category. He created a comp team a year younger so his kid would start. He's an asst. now so his son will be sure to play. The sad part? The young man has talent...maybe not varsity starter talent...but talent nonetheless. His dad's interference pulls his own rep down. And the young man's favorite sport isn't even baseball. Makes you wonder who all the "string-pulling" is for...

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Originally posted by Shamrock01:
There are still many hs programs that allow dads to coach. How does that work out? I am sure there are many dads that are quite good. I know a dad who coached and flat out told me the reason he was coaching was to have his kid play. He told me that if he did not coach his kid may not make the team.

Having a dad as an asst. coach isn't always a bad thing. At my last school my pitching coach and the guy who ran practice when I had teacher meetings had a son on the team for several years. When we were talking about whether or not he would coach I didn't know him that well and was worried he was doing it just to favor his son. He understood my position and promised me he just loved baseball and wanted to coach it (not that I expected him to admit if he wanted to favor his son). The deciding factor come down to he was a former minor league pitcher and he had coached rec ball for several years with success.

Early on I spent one week paying attention as to how he interacted with his son and the rest of the guys and I could not see a distinction in how he treated them. I was afraid he would either favor his son or be too hard on him but he was fair. He did a great job with our pitcher on the field and he had better connections than I did with college coaches.

His son ended up playing at a highly regarded JUCO and is now at a 4 year school. He helped several of our guys end up in other colleges as well. He would take guys to tryouts and showcases all the time when I couldn't or we would go together. He was a great resource for our players.

The guys (and myself to be honest) loved listening to him tell stories about his time in minor league ball. Now the school has a new head coach but this dad is still going to coach. This is 3 years after his son has graduated he is still coaching. Not only is he a great coach but he's a great friend. the sad thing is there are some parents of kids we cut that will swear up and down he favored his son.

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There are still many hs programs that allow dads to coach.

So how about the dad who has coached for 30+ years.. should he have to give it up when his son gets to the age of being on his team?!?!

Politics in High School baseball???

Poly= many
tics = blood sukking creatures

Yep, I'd say there's lots of Politics!

The unfortunate reality is that politics exist in many forms in life and in baseball. If it works in your favor you don't think it's unfair. It is just a fact of life.

Had a chance to talk to a high school parent today. His son is a senior(my son graduated last year from this school) and dad thinks he won't get his shot with the varsity team this year. But what struck me was as much as I like this kid I don't think he's ever played serious summer ball or done anything extra other than play during the hs season. The dad was going on about all the players that haven't gotten a fair shot in hs ball that were all-stars in LL and Pony league. What these parents don't get is that at the hs level having been an all star is no guarentee they'll continue to develop. With many of the complaining parents through the years I just don't see where their kids have put in the work that may be needed to play at the next level.

Needless to say, I probably won't be stopping to chat with these types of parents when we go to their games.

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I believe the bad high school coaches who would get mired in politics are a small minority.

RJM I tend to agree with you. The "politics" in high school baseball are in the eyes of the beholder. Considering that many of those eyes are looking at the situation through rose colored glasses I think much of this is unfounded. I've also seen some very supportive parents have their kids cut from teams -- I would guess that would be a good example of a non-political coach yet I have seen those coaches hammered for being "political".

Parents MUST direct blame at someone or something if their kid fails. Few people JUST accept failure and move on. Politics is probably the #1 scapegoat for failure at the high school level when in reality much of that is fabricated by the parent of the player that didn't make the grade because of talent. This can become very contentious when there are two "almost equal" players and one makes it and one doesn't.
Fungo

Two kids on the varsity roster right now are up there because their parents complained. It is factual. They never play however, and have to pay the varsity fee.

Good post Fungo.

I respect the parents that come here (not too often) asking what their sons can do to improve so that they can make the team after they miss it.

EH, very good answer. I was one of the complainers early in my son's HS career. Son started JV as freshman, was moved up to varsity for playoffs. Never saw the field, I was perturbed because, why bring a kid up to sit on the bench. However son is good enough at baseball, he played full time his junior year. This coach has his son on the team, riles up many parents. It does no one any good to complain, sons must work this out on their own, coaches respect that. I now consider myself a "good" parent, I volunteer with field projects. Coach and I will never be buddies but he does have good rules for the players I agree with.

I'll try to explain as well as possible.

There's nothing as a parent that you can do to avoid any politic's in any sport, except to stay away from the controversy.

It's your son's problem, and the only way that he as a player can overcome Politics.
Is by being so good of a player, with a good attitude.
That the coach want's him on the team.

No coach own's your son, He is a free agent.
Until they want to pay him to play for them, The Player owe's them nothing.
If a Player commit's to a team, then by all means fullfil that commitment if possible.

So you don't make the team, any team?

Does that mean you can't play baseball, No
It just means you can't play baseball for them.

That will happen at every level that the player tries to achieve.
Unless your so good that the coach want's you on his team.

EH

Most times it is THE OTHER PLAYER HAVING MORE TALENT than the politics-- most times it is not politics, even if the parents think so, that eliminates the player--it is numbers, positions and talent that eliminated a player---I have seen seniors cut from the varsity because the underclassmen were stronger in talent---it had nothing to do with politics- it had to do with talent and the coach wanting to have the best team he could on the field

C'mon folks, open your eyes and your minds and realize the truth---supertsars in LL and middle school do not a varsity player make not to mention that there is no entitlement involved here---the HS coach has a job to do

Let's face it we all think our kids are better than they are and we want them to be successful. We all hope they will do well enough to play at the next level being college. And maybe, maybe pro ball. I have been blessed to see one son achieve and playing pro ball. You don't realize what a huge feat that is until you look at some of his friends who were pretty good in hs and very good in college and not get drafted or even a tryout.

My only concern is with hs coaches that demand kids play in their summer programs. We went through that last year when we told the coach we wanted to play in a more compeitive league to see if my younger son was good enough to play in college. We have gone through a hassle due to that decision. I have told the coach my son wants no favors just play the better player. If the kids who play the same positions as my son are better play them if not play my son if and if he is better. Our coach told me that my son will have to wow him over everyone.

As a parent all you want is the coach to not hold decisions against kids and simply look at performance and attitude on and off the field. I have told my son to yes sir and no sir the coach and out hustle everyone.

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Originally posted by TRhit:
C'mon folks, open your eyes and your minds and realize the truth---supertsars in LL and middle school do not a varsity player make not to mention that there is no entitlement involved here---the HS coach has a job to do

TR, I think that for the most part your statement holds true. However coaches are people also, and like all people some have attitudes, hangups, prejudice's, and chips on there shoulders. Most HS coaches don't make it long if those exist but some seem to weather the storms for years. With that said a "good coach" will not put up with external politics, they may negotiate solutions that may appear to have a political feel, but for the most part decisions are made for the good of a team. Coaches have been brought up in competitive environments, they usually do not buckle to the folks outside the dugout.

From LL, HS, and college we hear the political side of issues, but they are usually from people on the "stinky end of the stick", and the others you don't hear complaining. I think that issue like this that pop up are part of a kids growing up. We've all been through it in our youth, but it has a different perspective as an adult.

TRHit -

You make a good point "superstars in LL and middle school" do not always a high school player make. (I expanded it a little bit . One mom was upset that her freshman son didn't make the jv team last year. She wasn't blaming politics, but couldn't understand since her son had always made whatever team he tried out for. He had only played REC, so the family never knew how much talent was actually out there.

My husband and I have been asked about other local REC talent from time to time. Usually the answer is rather evasive, and the ones asking do not seem to understand the depth of talent playing "travel". Playing at the higher levels makes a big difference as in our location, REC is not considered competitive.

A funny story about my son. He made the middle school team - one of two 7th graders. In his first high school season, about halfway through the season, I was talking to a dad who seemed to know a lot about my son. It was a little creepy until he told me that his 8th grade son was cut to make room for the two 7th graders. My son "got his spot" is the way he put it. I think my son proved over the three season since, that he earned - and was not given - his place.

From what I have seen, there's less politics in HS baseball than exists in summer select baseball too. Politics, favorites, call it what you will, exist everywhere to some degree.

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Originally posted by Fungo:

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I believe the bad high school coaches who would get mired in politics are a small minority.

RJM I tend to agree with you. The "politics" in high school baseball are in the eyes of the beholder. Considering that many of those eyes are looking at the situation through rose colored glasses I think much of this is unfounded. I've also seen some very supportive parents have their kids cut from teams -- I would guess that would be a good example of a non-political coach yet I have seen those coaches hammered for being "political".

Parents MUST direct blame at someone or something if their kid fails. Few people JUST accept failure and move on. Politics is probably the #1 scapegoat for failure at the high school level when in reality much of that is fabricated by the parent of the player that didn't make the grade because of talent. This can become very contentious when there are two "almost equal" players and one makes it and one doesn't.
Fungo

Another thing that happens is when the kid gets cut the parent loses their membership to the team parents club. They're being cut off from a social club they've been long time members.

When my son was cut from the basketball program I kept going to the games. I support the program. The parents are my friends. I never said a word about my son's situation which was questionable, but he accepted.

Politics is in the eye of those who say there is politics. Many times it is just sour grapes because their kid got cut or is not playing and sometimes it is a legitimite concern. One way as a coach you can protect yourself is not leave the door open to be accused of things getting political. If you let outside forces become a part of your program then dont be surprised if there are those that bring the political thing up. Some thngs are obvious like if somebody donates a lot of money and their kid makes the team you better make sure he is heads and shoulders above everybody else.
In my tenure I did not have parent boosters or any such thing. I had no problem. I played the best. But now it seems like all sports have the fundraising thing. Necessary evil. I just think you have to be smart about it.

Most HS coaches that I know will not allow any special favors in way of $$ donations. All players have the same financial obligation. Then you don't have to be accused of giving special treatment.

Those coaches that allow it to happen only help create the buzz that surrounds their program. Then I say they are partly to blame for parents thinking they take players on favors.

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Most HS coaches that I know will not allow any special favors in way of $$ donations. All players have the same financial obligation. Then you don't have to be accused of giving special treatment.

This is is the way coaches should be. This way, the program will less likely be accused of politics if the coachesa play it straight up.

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Those coaches that allow it to happen only help create the buzz that surrounds their program. Then I say they are partly to blame for parents thinking they take players on favors.

Right on. And those parents who 'hang around' the school, do all the grunt work for the coach, stay in constant contact with the coach will make it easier for certain players to perhaps move up to the varsity level when they might onlly still be JV level players..That stuff goes on and we all know it.

Also, another issue is pay-to-play. With some schools butget cuts, (of course BOE members and superintendents are never affected by budget crunches) pay-to-play is a popular new trend which leaves open the potential of entitlement to get innings or make varsity on the HS team. I don't see it as a big an issue as those who jockey for the booster club presidency but the potential exists.

I think there are more parents who give of themselves for the cause of the team then what will happen to their players. Coaches are smart, they know who is trying to manipulate and who is not.

My wife and I have always during hs and college with my boys have stayed away. We would go to the boosters meetings and take our turn selling snacks and doing field day. However, once the season started I brought my chair and sat away from the dugout and watched the game.

I still think it is funny when the rec parents will walk up to the dugout with treats for little Johnny even after the coach has told parenst to stay way. Or the parenst that have their kids over on the side of the dugout and are giving advise within ear shot of the coach. or the dads that yell at their kids after they boot a ball or strike out. Sometimes I will ask the dad did you ever play baseball in hs?

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Originally posted by TPM:
I think there are more parents who give of themselves for the cause of the team then what will happen to their players. Coaches are smart, they know who is trying to manipulate and who is not.

That's more likely the norm. If coaches run their program based on what the parents do, he'll lose control and never have a good program. That booster club stuff should be kept seperate from the coaches job on the field. I believe the majority of them can see thru the phonies trying to manipulate the coach.

our high school coach has been there for about 10-12 yrs. he was very young when he started,made some mistakes but in my opinion he learned from them. he is a very good coach,not just baseball. the lesson's we don't know we're learning.

when my son was a freshman they had a baseball meeting. all 3 teams get together and they iron out the goals,needs, etc. at that first team meeting all i heard was coach bashing. even though it was to his face i felt very uncomfortable. the older guy's felt he was young ,and not as baseball savy. (the ingedients for doom.)

over time i became the booster pres. in name only,the woman did all the work.(thank goodness) even though my son's were gone i stayed for a few more years. i never forgot that first meeting. i made it a point to explain why we were there, to raise money for the kid's. not to bash the coach,complain about playing time,etc. just to get the kids what they needed. i never heard anyone complain, but my wife say's i have a look the would deter that type of interaction.

so many variables too. as tr said. different things happen in different locals. size of school,more player's more dissapointment's.

it is what you let it be, if you have a booster club with a goal clearly outlined. it reduces a lot of greif. someone with the crazy eyes doesn't hurt either.


clique's suck.........unless your in it. then it isn't a clique.

Our coach has had to dodge frequent bullets from the parents who believe it's "all about politics" - when their son gets cut/doesn't play/doesn't play where they think he should/doesn't make the all-whatever team, the first response is to go scream to the administration/AD/school board. And THEY all just want the screaming to stop, because they like their jobs too, so far too often those parents (who were complaining about politics to begin with) end up benefitting from the very thing they were criticizing. They create the problem and then take advantage of it.

If our coaches were just allowed to coach without fear of losing their jobs for doing the right thing (picking / playing only the best) then politics would play no part on our high school team. Honestly I can't say anyone has lost a spot on the team because of one of these "parent picks" (we don't have huge tryout numbers) but they can be a real drain on team morale and energy. In the last 12 years we've had maybe 5 - 7 players that are easy to identify as "I'm on this team because my parents complained" players, and none had even a modicum of success. Most quit either that year or during tryouts the next - coach didn't even have to cut them, they couldn't hack it - and then we heard "my boy couldn't stand playing for THAT COACH!" We run into one dad from 10 years ago about every 3 or 4 months and it's still the first thing he brings up - what a jerk our coach is. Somebody needs to move on. His "kid" is now 26 years old!

I'm not sure how anyone manages to enjoy being a high school coach anymore.

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I'm not sure how anyone manages to enjoy being a high school coach anymore.

I read somewhere there's a shortage of high school and middle school coaches. Some have decided it's more peaceful and pays better to instruct at academies.

We heard a lot of allegations of politics at our son's school, most of which eventually proved to be false.

The parents of a pitcher complained about the parents of another pitcher donating $1,000 to the program, which gave the second pitcher "preferential treatment" and "the best starts." The parents did donate to the program, but their son was clearly the superior pitcher. That was proven when he was drafted out of high school. He is now playing at a D1 and the first pitcher is at a lower level JUCO.

Our son lost his spot for awhile and we complained about politics. (The guy who took his spot was the QB and supposedly the favorite of all the coaches.) Eventually, as we observed the play of our son's replacement, we realized he was more mentally tough than our son. So it wasn't really politics after all.

When your child is adversely affected, it's easy to think it's politics. Others may even outwardly agree with you, but be saying the opposite behind your back.

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Others may even outwardly agree with you, but be saying the opposite behind your back.

Some are happy it wasn't their son who was cut and one more competitor is out of their son's way.

Baseball DRAMA...Choke up and defend the plate, it's baseball season...

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If our coaches were just allowed to coach without fear of losing their jobs for doing the right thing (picking / playing only the best) then politics would play no part on our high school team.

After my first year (ton of parent headaches - partly my fault because I was young and dumb) I finally realized that I will never be afraid to lose my job. Over the 9 years I was head coach I had many parents tell me that they could get me fired. I just told them that is fine and I have no problem with it. If they know someone who has the power to fire me because you are unhappy then I don't want to coach / teach there. That is a school that will fail because they won't let teachers and coaches do their job. I don't want to work for someone who will not back me. If they do fire me then they are doing me a favor and helping me get out of a bid situation.

Been able to sleep a lot easier ever since then.

There's been some discussion of donations, etc. and how they might affect a player's chances.

Let's up the ante a little.

A coach has 3 players of equal capability competing for the last spot. One kid's parent is a PITA, another kid's parent is an average Joe, and the last is the head coach at a nearby junior college.

Which player makes the team?

Or a college coach choosing among walk-ons. One kid's uncle has been in talks for the last year to donate funds for a new building, another kid's mom is a local sports writer, and a third kid has parents who qualify as average folk. Who is the coach going to choose?

The point is that "politics" does have a role to play in the selection of a team. If a HS coach suspects that his cuts might cause a college coach to subconciously downgrade players from his high school, he probably needs to think about that. And then he needs to consider whether he has subconciously overrated the JC coach's son.

Politics (or some kind of bias) will affect a player if he is on the bubble. If a player has the choice, he should plan to try for a team where he's not close to the cut line.

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The point is that "politics" does have a role to play in the selection of a team. If a HS coach suspects that his cuts might cause a college coach to subconciously downgrade players from his high school, he probably needs to think about that. And then he needs to consider whether he has subconciously overrated the JC coach's son.

If it's stated "all things equal" rather than equal talent since there's other variables than talent, I'm taking the coach's son. I'll assume he'll take advantage of dad's facilties, workout more often and have the highest potential to improve.

"Or a college coach choosing among walk-ons. One kid's uncle has been in talks for the last year to donate funds for a new building, another kid's mom is a local sports writer, and a third kid has parents who qualify as average folk. Who is the coach going to choose?"

There will probably be external pressure from other forces on campus. Given it's the last spot on the roster, take the money for the building.

Does anyone think it was coincidence a huge donation came into Harvard for the new Kennedy Government Building a year or two before Caroline applied? It's the way the world sometimes operates.

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It's the way the world sometimes operates.

These are great examples. At some point in time I think we all have to come to grips with the fact that sports are just another human creation, just like government, and newspapers, and even schools, and so they're of course going to be riddled with the human political motivations.

Let's face it, its not really the politics any of us fear. Its being in a political situation that we can't control or don't feel we can succeed at.

A good coach will try to minimize the impact of individual parental politics on his program, so that he can control his situation. In his case, control means being able to recognize the true best talent on the team, and being able to put them on the field as he sees fit. Beyond that, he might as well use politics to do everything possible to help his program.

For parents, real control only comes from having a truly talented son. The stories above illustrated it.

For everyone else, some form of politics is at play. And everyone is playing them. The guy who donates 1000 bucks is just being obvious about it. But the guy who's convinced coach will respect his quiet "leave coach alone" approach is also playing out his version of politics. He desperately wants coach to notice the fact that he has the sensibility to understand coach's need to be left alone to run his program without interference and blah, blah, blah... Even though he probably can't admit it, he really wants coach to prefer his kid in those "all-other-things-being-equal" situations because his parents are easy to get along with.

Either the kid can play, or he can't. If he can, if he's really good and not just marginal, then politics don't really matter, do they?