Power Arms in MLB

As usual, it depends on one’s perspective. When its easy to have access to the top power arms, as it is in MLB, of course velocity will always top accuracy. But in venues that have to play only with the players available by rule, a much different dynamic is in play. In HS, many coaches only have “average” arms available to them, so should they only shove out the hardest throwers, no matter what?

Not sure if you read the title, POWER ARMS IN MLB.

I never mentioned anything about HS? Did I? But in case you are curious, that is why the guys throwing heat are getting drafted while the guys who may be more accurate with better stats are not. 

 Are you here to cause another topic to go south?

These young players with power are what the team owners, GM's and managers and coaches are looking for, especially for starters.

"announcing his presence with authority" 

I love that line!

Probably interesting to look at height vs power arms in the MLB. 

I'd like to see "stats" on PG rankings (top ###) or draft picks, etc. on average and peak velocity over the last 10 or so years to see if "95 is the new 90".  The size thing intrigues me, also.

All MLB velocity data since 2007 is available publicly, including averages and trends, at either www.fangraphs.com or www.brooksbaseball.net. Most studies pertaining to performance measurements related to specificities such as velocities have been completed at www.baseballprospectus.com. 

Stats,

This site has evolved into more than just a site for HSBB.

There are plenty of sites where you can go to discuss just HSBB.

Are you suggesting that no one can post anything except if it is HSBB?

You are trolling and trying to start trouble.

Again, I know what kind of pitchers ML teams are looking for, but I try very hard to keep the discussion on HS ball. There are a lot of sites where people can go to discuss national baseball at the ML level, but not many sites people can find that discuss national baseball at the HS level

 

I didn't realize that you were the facilitator of these boards.  Taking threads into tangents that serve your agenda is not necessary or wanted.  If you wanted to discuss a topic different than the one posted than you should have started your own thread...

Height and 100 MPH throwers (7 of those 16 are 6' or under listed height--possible that some of those are inflated):

• 104.0, Aroldis Chapman, Reds, reliever   6'4"
• 102.8, Bruce Rondon, Tigers, reliever (rookie) 6'3"
• 102.3, Henry Rodriguez, Nationals, reliever (now Cubs AAA) (101.4 max 
2012)  6'1" [I've seen him listed at 6' or below in some places]
• 101.5, Kelvin Herrera, Royals, reliever (102.8 max 2012) 5'10"

• 101.4, Trevor Rosenthal, Cardinals, reliever (100.9 max 2012) 6'2"
• 101.3, Carlos Martinez, Cardinals, starter (rookie) 6'
• 101.0, Gerrit Cole, Pirates, starter (rookie) 6'4"
• 100.8, Nate Jones, White Sox, reliever (101.1 max 2012) 6'5"
• 100.7, Fernando Rodney, Rays, reliever (100.4 max 2012) 5'11"
• 100.6, Jose Dominguez, Dodgers, reliever (rookie) 6'
• 100.2, Andrew Cashner, Padres, starter (102.0 max 2012) 6'6"
• 100.2, Greg Holland, Royals, reliever (99.7 max in 2012) 5'10"
• 100.1, Jeremy Jeffress, Blue Jays, reliever (99.8 max in 2012) 6'
• 100.1, Nathan Eovaldi, Marlins, starter (98.5 max in 2012) 6'2"
• 100.1, Matt Harvey, Mets, starter (99.2 max in 2012) 6'4"
• 100.0, Danny Salazar, Indians, starter (rookie) 6'

I don't think he was trolling per se. He makes some valid points. And, this IS HSBW. If there were oodles of sites that just discuss HS baseball, please shoot me some links (because I was under the impression that there were not). But in the general forum, and given an accurate thread title, focusing on nonHS (but related) topics is completely cool and often informative...

It is impossible to talk about high school baseball without talking about other levels of baseball. Wouldn't most people want to know what it takes to play beyond high school?

Velocity is extremely important, should that be ignored? BTW, accuracy is also important.  Doesn't take a Scouting Director to figure out 95 and wild isn't as good as 95 and command!

To be honest, I wouldn't even be interested if all we ever discussed was HS baseball. Even then how do you ignore discussions about college recruiting or the MLB draft.  Or should the site be about average to below average HS baseball only? And what about before HS baseball should youth baseball be ignored?

There have been many discussions on this site that have nothing to do with any level of baseball. Actually some of those topics are among my personal favorites.  BTW, many of the people that participate here are not involved with HS baseball at this time.

Originally Posted by TPM:

Stats,

This site has evolved into more than just a site for HSBB.

There are plenty of sites where you can go to discuss just HSBB.

Are you suggesting that no one can post anything except if it is HSBB?

You are trolling and trying to start trouble.

Yes, there are many sites that discuss HS ball, but darn few of them that have such a wide variety of regions represented. Most are “local”. Maybe you could suggest a few that are national. Look at it this way, maybe I’d spend a lot less time here if there were places more suited to what I enjoy discussing, which is HSB.

I’m not suggesting anything other than HSBBW is known as a great site for talking about HS ball, not college or pro ball. Even though when my son moved from LL to HS, I continued to occasionally post on the sites I’d been posting, I found HS sites to migrate to where I spent the majority of my time. When he left HS and moved on to college, the same thing happened. I found college sites where I spent most of my time, but continued to occasionally post on the old ones. When my boy stopped playing ball, I was given the opportunity to get back into HS ball, and that’s where I spend most of my on-line time now.

I’m only tolling and trying to start trouble in your mind.

Batty, don't ask me, stats posts on many of them.

PG is spot on, this place has become more about the game of baseball, over the years there are been so many topics discussed that do not even mention baseball.

My opinion, parents are not spending lots of money on all sorts of lessons, equipment, pitching and hitting programs, showcases, camps, tournaments to make their players  better for HS baseball.

Many who post here don't even think that HSBB is that important (as travel teams to be seen by coaches and scouts in the off season).

Indirectly, this article is also about college ball, read about how many of those guys went to college before they were drafted.

Stats so, go back to those sites that just discuss HS ball!

You are trolling, you have already hijacked this topic!

"My opinion, parents are not spending lots of money on all sorts of lessons, equipment, pitching and hitting programs, showcases, camps, tournaments to make their players  better for HS baseball."

So true but many will deny it.

PGStaff,

Of course its impossible to talk about HS ball as though it were the only ball being played anywhere. As for what most people what to know, I can’t say. I know I was sure interested in knowing what it would take to get to college ball or beyond.

I don’t think anyone who knows much about the game doesn’t understand that velocity is a huge component of pitching, and that accuracy is as well.

I don’t think anyone is talking about ignoring the other levels of the game. Lord knows if you look at the forums available on HSBBW, there are a lot of them devoted entirely to those other levels. In fact, if one looks at all the different forums, one could assume the entire site is dedicated to that top few percent who do manage to go on to higher things.

Perhaps I made too much of it being as it was in the “General” forum and not in any of the skills forums. If that’s the case, I’m sorry. But my intention wasn’t to cause trouble, but rather to make sure everyone understands that there are different perspectives other than the perspective of MLB.

just always wonder if Maddux and Glavine and guys like him would of been passed over for the big power arms in todays scouting.?Two of my all time favorite pitchers ever .My husband being a huge braves fan since childhood.

They were power arms in their day, they cut back on the velo in their later years. Son actually learned to pitch by watching Maddux every game when he pitched (we ere fortunate to get that channel out of Atlanta nightly.  His mechanics were flawless.  I also think he was a lot smarter than the average ML pitcher of that era.

Things have changed, kids are bigger (maybe not taller) and stronger and the training is much better. Therefore so are the pitchers.

JMO

Both threw in the low 90's when young.  I can't imagine either being passed over today.  How could anybody watch Maddux throw a few in the pen, see that perfect throwing motion, and not think he could play at the highest level?   And Glavine -- tough as nails lefty with a big hook, great change, good control and sits low 90's  -- who doesn't want a guy like that? 

-- TPM made the same point and beat me by 20 seconds!

How many discussions have we had about velocity not having to be the most important stat for the average HS player?  Many!

As far as what you think is the small majority of people here that MLB might not pertain to, you would be surprised how many pms I get continually about college baseball and the draft.  How many posts per month on questions on how to develop velocity, how much gain in velo would a player or parent expect over 4 years, what exactly do pro scouts and top college programs look for when recruiting pitchers?

I posted that article because of the many people that come here wondering why their pitchers who have a very good W-L, ERA record in HS are being passed over by many D1 programs and pro scouts.

If that has nothing to do with this site, then tell me what does?  Your meaningless stats?

 Glavine actually improved upon his other pitches when his velo began to drop.

It's called evolving and maturing, and most of these guys have had to do that to stay in the game.

What will be interesting is to watch these young power guys as they get older and the velo begins to fall.

Actually one of my favorites was about the foods found by those that travel in different parts of the country, my contribution was the fried bologna sandwich in Paduca, KY!

Oh and then there were the days that we played Dice baseball, probably the best topic ever here on the HSBBW!

Originally Posted by fanofgame:

just always wonder if Maddux and Glavine and guys like him would of been passed over for the big power arms in todays scouting.?Two of my all time favorite pitchers ever .My husband being a huge braves fan since childhood.

While they weren’t exactly throwing like little girls, there’s no doubt they weren’t in the class of BIG power arms we’re seeing today, but there’s still a great chance they’d have still been able to get drafted and get to the ML. But is that really what’s the most important thing to take away from any discussion about pitching?

To me the REAL question is, how is it that any pitcher, especially in the ML, have not just success, but tremendous success without tremendous velocity? That would seem to indicate there have been lots of pitchers passed up who could very well have had a lot of success, but were passed on because they didn’t have the velocity deemed necessary to succeed.

And think about it. If velocity were really as important to success as so many want us to believe, why wouldn’t guys like Maddux and Glavine have kept on using the high velocity they had at the beginning, rather than dialing it back and using something else? Is it even the slightest bit possible that at some point in their careers they realized that it was movement and accuracy that gave them the most success?

Yep.  Lincecum is one forcibly going through that evolution right now. Last season was not pretty. This year, well, we'll see.  Should be interesting.

I think one of the things we need to realize about Glavine and Maddux is that they had EXCEPTIONAL command and EXCEPTIONAL movement.  AND they still threw around 88-91, which isn't chump change.  My son's old pitching coach pitched with the Braves and Glavine and Maddux.  He said Maddux could amp it up to around 95 any time he wanted, but got much more movement on his ball between 88 and 90 and that's where he chose to live.  But once again, his command was beyond anything maybe anyone in the MLB has ever done.  I'm sure both Maddux and Glavine lit up the guns to at least 93-95 when they were coming up.  And that was really fast back then.  There weren't nearly as many 95+ guys back in the late 80s as there are now.

The problem is, if you top out at 90 and want to dial it back to get great movement, you are going back to 85-86.  If you can throw 95 and want to dial it back to get great movement you are still at 88-90.  Either way, you need that PLUS exceptional command to live and excel in the MLB.  JMHO.

The guy is socially inept. He doesn't see he's the problem. The best thing to do is laugh at him and not return the volley. It takes a target for a troll to be successful. The guy likes to fight for the sake of fighting. If you ignore him he doesn't have an opponent.

Originally Posted by bballman:

…The problem is, if you top out at 90 and want to dial it back to get great movement, you are going back to 85-86.  If you can throw 95 and want to dial it back to get great movement you are still at 88-90.  Either way, you need that PLUS exceptional command to live and excel in the MLB.  JMHO.

A good friend of mine who spent 41 years in pro ball as a player, scout, and ML pitching coach has explained it to me this way. The only pitcher he saw in all those years who had over-the-top velocity could throw at 100% and get tremendous movement while being the most accurate pitcher he ever saw, was Satchel Paige. Everyone else was a step down to one degree or another.

That being said, he believes every pitcher has to experiment to find out where he has the most success in the most situations. So, using your example, if a pitcher topping out at 90 does need to drop back to 85-86 to get max movement, he may only have to dial it back to 88 to get max accuracy, then he has to make the decision as to which he’ll do to maximize his success. Everything will depend on his pitching style and the pitches he throws.

Since we're talking power arms. In this day and age of youtube videos and widely available high-level instruction, do folks still see pitchers in HS and college (and beyond) that have power arms but are ticking time bombs in terms of mechanics? Or has that become a real rarity? If a kid has a lighting bolt for an arm but major mechanical flaws, do they drop in a PG rating, have no chance to get drafted, or do managers roll the dice and hope they get some good (over) use before their arm implodes?

PG would be the one to provide the best answer. But I'll bet most coaches would see the power arm, drool and tell himself the coaching staff can fix the mechanics.

I thought 6' was the magic height to get noticed?  If so then out of the 100 MPH throwers listed above only 3 of the 16 are under 6'.  

Stats4Gnats, it looks like you get beat up a lot by a vocal minority.  

I suggest the Blocking function on those few to make life easier.  

I just wished it work so well in real life.  

I think you meant "Majority"...

Most every great hitter has a point in his swing that is nearly identical to other great hitters.  This doesn't work the same way for pitchers.  There are short arm power pitchers and long arm power pitchers. IMO perfect mechanics don't exist.  Every pitcher is a bit different in some way.  If they were all identical the hitters would love it.  When you see three maybe four pitchers in a game and they are all different, different angles, different pitches, different deliveries, different movement, even different velocity gets very tough on hitters.

IMO many pitching coaches and instructors have taken the natural talent out of pitching. No one taught Bob Feller how to throw.  Out behind the barn his body told him how he could best throw the ball.  When you change what comes naturally you're taking something away from the pitcher. You might even be increasing the chance of injury.

Truth (from my chair):

• When our older son (6'-2" RHP) flashed 93 as a HS junior, he was projected as a high draft pick.  "Projection," "Potential," "Power Arm" were terms I heard and saw in print.  He was the first player 'committed' in Stanford's recruiting class.
• When he settled in more like 90 as a HS senior, he dropped…and people wondered if he was hurt?
  
• When he regularly threw 88-91 as a college pitcher, he became less of a 'prospect' and more of a 'draftable player.'  He was ultimately drafted in the 13th round as a college senior…following an all-Pac10 season in which he led Stanford in most pitching categories and helped them to the CWS.  He was drafted after other pitchers on his same staff who were either LHPs or threw with more velocity but less 'performance' stats-wise.
• When he threw in the high 80s in his first Spring Training a year later - he was nearly cut, but evolved to a starting pitcher that set a record for wins (16) as a Single-A pitcher…throwing 88-90.
• When he followed that up with a 14 win season that elevated him to double-A while throwing 88-91, he was called a "cerebral pitcher" by his minor league scouting director and was a 'feature' in an article by a blogger that proclaimed him "not a prospect."
• When he moved to the bullpen and touched 97 in relief outings of 1, maybe 2 innings…he was promoted to triple-A and made his league's all star team.
• When he 'cruised' at 94, game after game, he made it to the major leagues.

Moral of the story?  "Velocity matters."  

 Who cares about the MLB? this is a high school website!

????

This isn't complicated. A significant number of high school players aspire to play at the next level... that means either college or pro ball. Low percentages will realize this dream, but many are interested.  So any info about metrics, process, ANYhing about what's required to go next level is completely valid on this website, IMO. The post was labeled clearly enough... If not interested, why open the thread?

It was probably an oh-so-helpful sarcastic cheapshot (IMHO) at Stats4Gnats.

I thought the same thing.  Stats4Gnats blocked list is growing. 

Originally Posted by baseballmania:

Stats4Gnats, it looks like you get beat up a lot by a vocal minority.  

I suggest the Blocking function on those few to make life easier.  

I just wished it work so well in real life.  

I really don’t let it bother me much unless it gets personal. Until then, more often than not its nothing but one opinion opposed to another. I try to keep in mind that nothing is learned when everyone agrees on everything.

But you have no idea how many times I laugh at those who are so disdainful of stats because they think are useless. Its because I know as sure as snot, that when their kids were in HS, they knew BAs, ERA, number of Ks, and Lord knows what other useless stats, and were likely the 1^st ones to question some poor scorer’s judgment.