Preferred Walk On--Guaranteed Roster Spot

What makes it his dream school!

Nothing is ever guaranteed.  Could be a great situation or could be a nightmare.  It will all depend on what they think "after" your son is on campus.  What if "after" he is on campus, they tell him, "I guarantee you will never play here".  Would your son want to stay there after hearing that? Or what happens If they tell your son they think he needs to go to a certain JC so that he can develop his skills.   

 

I'm not trying to put a damper on this, it could work out great.  Every school has some walk-ons. But the only sure thing about baseball is that there are no sure things. If you feel the coach/recruiter is someone you can trust and he is being totally honest, go for it.  But always know that people can and do change their mind. Truth is, it is all up to your son and his confidence in proving himself to the coaching staff.  There are student/athletes with good scholarships that get asked to transfer... Told they will never play at the college.  No one wants to stay where they are no longer wanted.

No brainer holmes.

 

It is a great academic and baseball school in our state, and one that many kids in our state dream of going to, and baseball players dream of playing for.

Great academics and great baseball. And the chance for money ... More than you get at a lot of other places. That's for sure.

PG posted something very important in another topic about schools knowing about what other offers one may or may not have and from who
Seems like your sons dream school must know his situation.  Sorry if they wanted him badly enough they would make some type of offer.

If they want him so badly where were they all summer? In what capacity do they want him, as a catcher for games or in the bullpen? 

Definetly a no brainer go to where you are really wanted.
If it is any of the larger programs from your state chances are they have a
stud catcher and one waiting in the wings. Could be a few seasons before he got some serious if any play time.  Check rosters and ask how many other catchers will walk on.

The decision is up to your son but make sure he really understands that he is an after thought to others. If he is ok with that than go for it.  Not all walk ons are because there is no money left.  I know of players that were walk ons but gave up their money because they could afford to attend with no scholarship dollars recruited seriously by the coaching staff.   Doesn't seem to be the case here.

My son was in the exact same situation.  His dream school.  This school called him often saying they really want him - but they have no money.  (Even though we knew of offers being given/turned down by others, etc.)  We were wary of going to a school with no NLI.  What if the coaching staff changes?  What if they don't keep their word?  We felt it was too risky to choose a school (out of state at that) to play ball on a handshake.  A proud moment for me was when my son actually told the coach that on one of his phone calls.

Aleebaba,

 

I'll defer to swampboys post #13 in this other thread that you started.  I truly believe this is fantastic advice in the context it was given and in general:  Cudos to swampboy.   http://community.hsbaseballweb...est-academic-college-

 

"The fact of the matter is that the overwhelming majority of baseball players who head off to college do not get the experience they think they signed up for.  Transfers and injuries and bench time and cuts and academic pressure and other disappointments are the norm--and that doesn't even count what opposing teams do to you. This rule applies to all divisions and all conferences (just ask the young men with plausible D1 aspirations who enroll at D3's, only to encounter 50-60 players on the fall roster and find themselves on the bench, if they're lucky). 

 

High academic schools do not offer a refuge from this reality.  For example, look at Harvard. Harvard has a GSR of 100% for the latest reporting period.  There were eleven freshmen on the roster in 2010.  Three of those eleven were still on the roster as seniors in 2013.  Maybe all of the others were still in school nailing down their degrees.  Or maybe 3 divided by 11 doesn't equal 100%.  I'm not picking on Harvard.  Do your own check on other schools.

 

Any player who aspires to play college baseball anywhere needs to plan on bouncing back from major adversity somewhere along the line, regardless of where he goes to school.  Personally, I think it's great preparation for adult life, and so I am willing to encourage young men to embrace the challenge.  But that's just my opinion."

 

The last part of this passage is the most important part in my opinion because it almost always true.  There will be major adversity at some time, and possibly more than one adverse event..  Folks have different opinions about selecting a school and baseball programs based on their goals, experiences and situations. I think if you go into this eyes wide open with a best case/worst case analysis, and if the worst case is workable then I think you need to consider this option.  If the worst case is not palatable then I think you need to consider other options.  JMO

 

Good luck and let us know!

 

 

 

Swampboy, Great post via Fenway. Thanks for preserving this piece of wisdom.

I know that schools can't offer an NLI without the minimum athletic scholarship.  So, is there anything else the coach can do to "guarantee" you a roster spot, other than give you his word?  A good state school might be less expensive with no scholarship than a private school with the minimum 25% aid.

This is a consequence of the NCAA's institution of the 25% minimum rule a few years back.

 

Previously, a school could lock down a player for as little as "book money".  The NCAA didn't like players being taken off the market for small amounts, and stated that it thought the rule change was for players' benefit.  But the problem is, if you don't command 25%, you end up with nothing.  Even with "book money", you would be a "counter", i.e., someone the NCAA would count towards the program's maximum roster size of 35.  When cutting you wouldn't help the program get under the ceiling, your odds of being on the spring roster were pretty close to 100%, excepting only if the coaches concluded during the fall that you were a problem kid. 

 

But when you have zero money, now you are not automatically a "counter", so you can be cut.  And no matter what someone promises you orally, things can change.  Some people don't keep their word.  Sometimes coaches are fired and replaced.  Some times a guy meant to keep his word but later finds himself in a predicament he didn't anticipate and his only out is to cut you.

 

So, there are risks.  The best bet is to post a request for information -- ask people here to send you private messages about experiences at the school and whether this coach has a track record that engenders trust, or whether perhaps others have been led down the primrose path this way. 

 

There is one other factor.  Suppose this is a school where your son could not pass admissions on his own, but he could with the coach's help.  That may be enough to sway your decision.  That uses baseball to get an opportunity you wouldn't otherwise have had.  Even if he does get cut from the team (and there's no saying he will be, as pretty much every team has 8 or more walk-ons), that wouldn't result in him losing his place as a student.  For many, this is enough to seal a deal.  Whether it is enough for your son, only you and he can decide. 

Thanks for the posts.  We have direct relationships with players that just left the program, and my son's hitting coach is best friends with one of their coaches and they both say offer is legit and program honors these commitments. 

 

PG, Fenway and TPM make good points about being able to accept the downside, but from reading you guys it seems like the downside is possible anywhere you go.  If they don't like you, playing time is unlikely anywhere.  It is of course tougher in some schools than others though.

 

Now, one of the key issues seems to be that my son is not as highly thought of us maybe some other recruits, and the "go where you are loved" rule would most likely lead you elsewhere, (and there are schools that have shown him that love).  However, my son, like many others in his spot, still dreams of MLB, and trying to stack up against the best.  You and I know that it is a 1 in a 1000 chance, but he is 17.  Because he has aspirations of playing ball beyond college, one advantage is he would compete against tougher competition and see if he stacks up.  If he can't make the lineup eventually given all the teaching tools they have, then he obviously would not be a good pro and can focus more on studies.  It would be a more miserable experience though than playing somewhere that you can contribute, but you would get the ultimate feedback you need to move on.  Just a thought.   

 

It seems you or your son (?) has answered your question. Hope it is your son.

For a kid that is interested in playing baseball, especially past the college level, I think its very important to find a coach that has a vision of your son contributing, rather then a coach who is willing to see if he'll "stick".  Other then getting cut, the next worst thing is being strung along for several years while sitting on the bench.  For many its better to play for a team ranked 150th in the nation then to sit on the bench for #1.  Its a tough call.

 

With respect to schools  "academics" its more about your son's efforts and interests then the schools academic ranking.  i.e. your son might get into UCLA as a geology major with the coaches help or get into UCD as an engineering major....

No, just thinking through issue with help from you guys.

Aleebaba - PM to you.

Aleebaba,

 

Our son was also offered a "fall roster spot" with the chance to make the spring roster at a big highly ranked in state school.  Our son has decided to pass even though the cost would be lower and he would be closer to home than where he is being offered academic and baseball money.  The reason is, he wants to PLAY for four more years.  We know that he is not one of those players that will end up in the MLB someday; he is going to live off of his degree.  He would love to tell his friends that he went D1 and he would like to be close to home, but most of all, he wants to PLAY.  He has two more visits to make and will sign/commit to the coach who loves him the most (two more D2 schools and one very competitive D3 to visit).  That is just my two cents....

Good points. 

 

Another way to potentially split the baby on this issue is to perhaps consider "playing" at a lower-ranked school that happens to be googled-eyed over your son and oh btw, the lower-ranked school routinely plays the big boys  

 

You see this situation play itself out all over college baseball.  Using just the Virginia, North Carolina, and South Carolina region of the country, where teams can play (even midweek) with only an hour or two bus ride, there are lessor-ranked schools in this region that routinely play the likes of Clemson, South Carolina, North Carolina, UVA, NC State, etc.  Thus, a player can still get exposure to the pro scouts even though they may not be at their "dream" school.  Moreover, if the player can manage to get into a fine summer league in their respective regions (e.g., Coastal Plains or Valley League for mid-Atlantic states), they can also get additional pro exposure (often to the same scouts) playing against top competition.

 

You must "play" in front of the pro scouts to get drafted.  They must see you play.  Sitting on the bench at LSU will not satisfy that requirement although it might be cool to tell your friends you are on LSU's baseball team. 

 

You'll almost never see a pro scout at a game between Lower Ranked State and Ranked Lower University but you very likely and often can see a game between Low Ranked State and Clemson where the likelihood of seeing a pro scout goes up greatly.    

CD, I agree 1,000% with your comments on playing as well as the importance of exposure and playing in Summer Wood bat leagues.

Where I might vary a bit would be on scouting.  If I understand correctly, Aleebaba and his son are from Texas.  I have a pretty good guess which University he is referencing.  One thing I have posted about the I-35 corridor before is there are more scouts in that section of the Country than just about anyplace else. When our son was drafted, the scout who followed him had 6 players picked by one team in the first 25 rounds, and all were from that one corridor.  As we both know, there is one D3 at the end of the I35 corridor which gets plenty of scouts to their games and more than a few who get drafted.

With that said, being very well coached, grinding and playing are, for me, the most important factors if MLB is a dream.  I am not sure MLB as the dream would be an important criteria on accepting a recruited walk-on slot compared with the quality of coaching, opportunity to play and improve, opportunity for a quality Summer placement and making a personal(quality and realistic)  judgment about whether the player can compete and succeed at that program and is willing to grind to do it.

2 follow-up points:

 

Don't make the mistake of thinking that your odds of getting drafted are better at one school vs. another.  There are plenty of MLB players from schools that you may never see in Omaha.  The much-ballyhooed Stephen Strasburg pitched at a mid-major program.  He was not regarded as the biggest prospect coming out of HS, but he got on the field and therefore had a chance to work his way up the ladder.  And I can assure you, by the end there were plenty of pro scouts hanging around when Friday night rolled around, I don't care who the opponent was.  We saw a similar phenomenon in VA some years back with Verlander at ODU.  I would hazard to guess that the odds of making MLB are the greatest at the school where you have the best chance to play either every day (offensive player), or to pitch in the weekend rotation.

 

Second, if you feel your son is still looking at this starry-eyed, 17 is not too young for you to tell him to snap out of it and start making decisions like an adult.  Yes, kids have always done this.  Time was when parents would always make them stop doing it, if only for their own good.  For some reason, in the last decade or so, parents seem more willing to indulge the prolonged adolescence.  Your son would profit from your taking the more old-school approach.

If going pro is a major factor in his school decision, he should go where he will get the reps and experience to develop his game to the point that he can become a pro.  If he wants to keep playing after college, make sure he plays during college:  a small tradeoff in quality of competition that maximizes the chance of playing every day could be prudent.  

Very good posts by all and especially from Midlo and Swampboy, CD, infielddad and PG.

 

Regardless of the outcome, this all takes a whole lot of thought behind the decision to play for a Big D1 program. My son played for a top ranked D1, so I am giving my point of view from that perspective.  As someone said here once, be very careful what you wish for.

 

I said this once and will say it again, I was standing with a group of scouts, agent and D1 coaches as well as a former ML player. They all somewhat agreed that walk ons are seen as fill ins when the scholarship guys get hurt.  That was a few years ago, I am not sure that philosophy has changed!

 

My sons own recruiting experience, his dream school paid no attention to him until August of his senior year. He played often on their field throughout his HS travel ball, but didn't receive a call until mid August asking if he would like to come to an unofficial to meet the staff.  He asked, "where have you guys been" and "sorry I have had some real interest from others for a very long time and my visits are set up".  he was angry.  Even after a small offer he kept calm and said no thank you. He realized that someone else said no.  I am sure he would have been fine, and been in the local news a lot, but his choice was based upon the love he felt from those that had taken the time to seek him out earlier.

 

Sometimes I admit its not what you know but who, but in your sons case, is the interest really there for skill and talent or is it because of a friendship?

 

Study some milb rosters, not all players come from top ranked college programs, in fact most top prospects don't even go to college.  College will help a player to be a better player because he has life experience skills that will help in survival if not a top drafted player. It doesn't necessarily make one a more skilled player even by attending the best college programs in baseball.

 

Don't ever give up the dream but IMO don't ever compromise your education!  Playing time is essential for development but keep in mind that not all players (especially position guys) show off ML potential and tools needed to get drafted.  It is also very hard to have it both ways (a good baseball program and a good education), the player has to decide and accept what is most important.

 

Just like families all programs (and levels) have issues. One word of caution, former players will never speak badly of their former programs, they just don't do it, even among friends.   

This is a great topic...seems to come up every year at this time and justifiably so.

 

My son was in the exact same circumstance as a 2012.  Numerous offers with $.  Numerous academic school "offers".  And the preferred walk on / roster spot offers at the major conference "dream" schools closer to home.  It's a very challenging thing for the player and the parents for sure.  The advice flowing here is what makes this site so great!

 

Just one data point which is my son's:  The advice he ultimately followed, which he heard repeatedly on this site, was to go where he was loved.  Without getting into the details of a very rocky freshman year (injury, social issues, academic challenges, etc.), his college administration and coaching staff stood by him.  The coaches also ensured his placement in a top summer collegiate league this past Summer.  My sense is if he had these issues elsewhere, like some of his peers from home, he would've transferred already.  But his coaches (and teachers and administration) are standing by him.

 

He is starting his soph year a much more mature and focused student-athlete, with the continued opportunity to make a great impact on the team.  Just iterated with him today about some positive academic results and his summer placement in the Coastal Plains league.  His team is an "academic" school...opening at Mississippi State in February...yikes!

 

We are thankful for the advice to "go where you are loved...not where they are just interested".  This has advice has been a blessing for us. 

 

Best of luck to your son and family.

 

 

Great post and classic hsbbweb story.  That's why I love this site.

infielddad - totally agree with your take as well.

 

At the end of the day, the message board cannot make the decision.  If your son is adamant about throwing his hat into a big time powerhouse, and goes into it with his eyes wide open knowing the consequences, then more power to him.  Being in a program like that will force him to raise the level of his own play.  None of us can predict the future.  With high risk comes high reward.  

David Berg was a non-scholarship walk-on at UCLA.  You never know, right?

We went to school today.  Facilities and support at these places are amazing.  They recruited son hard, and he met everyone.  The head coach said that son would be on the team, but he could not promise playing time to anyone, because the best play, period.  He said that If he had dreams to play MLB, like most boys that come there do, you better get used to competing against and with the best.  Very good argument.  Going to be hard to pass opportunity up.   

FYI,  good coaches don't ever promise playing time to anyone, rather opportunities.  The problem with this for walk on players (even invited ones), is that usually the opportunities go the scholarship players.  

 

Most people, you and your son included, have absolutely no idea how hard it is to play college ball as well as going onto the next level. You will understand that after your sons first year.  You will also understand how important it is to make them understand that playing beyond college is just the icing on the cake, how important it is to be a student before being an athlete.

 

Once again, it is the player that moves himself forward in this game not the program he attends. My son was very lucky to have a coach who pressed buttons bigtime when son hit downtime. They were giving him a good opportunity and his pc  believed 100% in him, that is sometimes very hard to find because the next year a whole new crop of players show up to take his place.  If you don't have people and a support system who really believe in you and did from the beginning, you could find yourself in big trouble when times get tough (and they are going to be).

 

Good luck, I am sure the Board will be eager to follow the player's progress. His predisposition to move in this direction was evident a couple of days ago in the thread. Seems head and heart are aligned.

 

Coach had the right answer for the player's MLB dream thing...with the coach's objective, at least, in mind.

 

Seems now, a lot of high academic dominoes will fall, once this player is off the market.

That's a great point.  Goes directly with the rule, "go where you are loved."  I am assuming that some programs do not fit that criteria for anybody in the program.  Assistant coaches may have there "favorites" and lobby for them, but head coach is under lots of pressure to win.  It is definitely tougher.  I assume that is why a lot of kids transfer.  Eyes wide open. 

Aleebaba,

 

It is great to see that your son (and family) are going to do exactly what you decide to do.  So often people get overly concerned what others say, that they forget to follow their heart.  Doesn't really matter if any of us agree with what you decide to do.  It's only important that you feel good about the decision. 

 

Best of luck

Congrats Aleebaba. 

 

This journey is like Chinese water torture.

Aleebaba,

I'll bet baseballmom-son was recruited by this same school! (& others in same conference) He wound up at Tulane, who came out of nowhere while his summer team was at a tourney in Nebraska where all these "recruiting teams" were battling it out in CWS in 2005. http://dataomaha.com/cws/year/2005

 

Best decision son ever made! His "dream" was to use baseball to get an education...and play beyond, if possible. 

 

Ask yourself what your son really has with "preferred walk on/guaranteed roster spot"?

Look at the roster of the school...Who & how many returning at your son's position? And how much seniority does each have? Is your son 2nd string, 3rd, 4th? Are there 2-way players involved, too? Look at their play time, batting averages, OBP, etc. What about academic $$$? Realize, too, that there may be 35-40 on the roster, but only 25 travel with the team, usually the guys with the BEST results/ longevity with program. Unless there's a "phenom" or injury, these Big 12 schools don't take many freshmen. 

 

Have to agree with PG, infielddad & fenwaysouth, & others who replied. 

Bottom line, Coach will put THE BEST players on the field that give COACH the BEST chance of winning games to put team in the BEST position to go to Omaha. 

 

If your son has aspirations to eventually go pro, he needs the BEST opportunity for HIM, to develop HIS offensive & defensive skills, which translates into playtime, while getting an education. Academics first. 

 

Friends & walk-on offers are high risk...without "guarantees".  

 

One question I asked son...Do you want to be a big fish in a little pond, or a little fish in a big pond? He was neither, but it did get him to thinking about playing/developing vs. "saying he was on a team"...

 

 

Know your son I think.  He has talent and shouldn't give up the dream.  Go JUCO if you really can't figure it out and see what develops.  for baseball gives him playing time to see how much he improves in a year or two.  For school no one cares where you start school they care where you got your degree from.  The JUCO's in TX are heavily scouted.  

Alee's kid is D1 material(hearing from scouts here or there)...but not top of the heap D1 material...much like mine.  So the frustration lies with knowing they are high level but not "blue chippers" and dealing with the unknowns that come with being one of a large group of talented players.

We told son that as long as he chooses a high academic school, and we can afford it, then it is completely his choice.  (In this case our daughter also happens to go to the school so we have no good argument to force him to go elsewhere).  After reading these posts I sat him down and we discussed how difficult it would be to get playing time, especially in the early years.  I don't think he cares.  He believes he can eventually beat out anyone at his position -- or at least earn significant playing time -- and he was told he would get a fair shot by coaches and 2 ex-players that we know.  

 

One argument that I am having a hard time understanding is early playing time v. coaching.  This school has some of the best coaching and resources in the country.  How do you weigh that against playing earlier in a less difficult conference?  Don't you get a chance to make some of that up in scrimmages and Summer Ball? .    

Practice will be what determines how he will be viewed by the coaching staff.

What you don't want to see happen is for him to burn a year by playing in one or two games and it happens very often at large programs.

If your son plays other positions it will be helpful, keep in mind that your bat keeps you in the lineup.

How ones does in the season determines where the coaching staff will place a player in summer and so does their prospect status. This should be a discussion with the coaching staff before a commitment, will he get an opportunity to play in summer somewhere.

Have a discussion in advance with him going to a D2 or 3 (in a year) if he feels he needs a change due to lack of playing time (in other words it doesn't work out).   If this is what he wants then its his call.

Keep in mind that he will not sign an NLI so the possibility of another opportunity coming up still exists, I would keep the door slightly ajar, this would include JUCO.

 

It isn't being suggested that because the player won't be signing an NLI, it is ok for the player to make an oral commitment that he intends to back out of.....is it?

 

Fine for the player to bargain for as much time as he can get to confirm to the coach whether he wants to be a "preferred walk-on". But once the commitment is made, even though it is oral and not written, I think it should be honored.

 

Yes, there can always be extenuating circumstances, but going into a commitment with a possible renege in mind............well, not my cup of tea.

 

 

 

Won't happen here.