I hate the word PROJECTABLE. It's been tough for my boys. Their great pitchers but unfortunately, they are not tall kids and that's what these coaches want. Why does coaches take kids that our "projectable" but no work ethic and arm care routine? I would think that would be very important, but most these coaches just want the tall kids.
WHERE'S THE COACHES THAT Love THE Boys that have tremendous work ethic?
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Really need a lot more info to form an opinion, but great work ethic doesn’t always translate to ability and wins. Every kid I’ve seen get an opportunity to play at the next level had good work ethic. I saw lots of hard workers who didn’t get the opportunity.
I understand what you are saying, and I probably uttered those words more than a few times 10-15 years ago. It is probably even more so today given the transfer portal situation, and JUCO popularity. Coaches can be more selective with their recruits. To me, this means your son has to be realistic and understand the marketplace better.
Years ago, I figured out there was a frame low water mark for D1 P5 at about 6'2". The feedback my son (RHP 6'1") got from those coaches referenced his frame more than once. I don't know what that ceiling is today, but I suspect it is taller. He had the velocity, and pitch selection of a D1 P5 recruit but he didn't have the frame projectability. He had three players from his travel team go to UVA. Two were RHPs and both were very big boys in the 6'3"-6'4" 210-220lbs range. One of them had a similar variety of pitches to my son and the other just threw 2 pitches. My son was 6'1" 180lbs. He got no recruitment love at UVA. It was the same at Virginia Tech. Reality struck. He moved on and found serious interest and offers in the D1 Mid-Majors, Ivy & Patriot League as well as some D3 HA programs.
If your son is a great pitcher as you advocate, then he needs to be persistent to get in front of the right coaches until he finds the best fit. This doesn't happen overnight. We went through a few different phases of recruitment where the only thing that changed was our strategy or approach. You have to be willing to try something different when it becomes apparent your son is either not get positive responses or targeting the wrong audience or both. My son went on to have a great college career and experience, and their was no question it was the right fit.
Good luck!
Yes. My kids are fortunate they do play at the next level. I got 1 at JUCO school down south and 1 at a D2 school in Midwest looking to find a school for his Junior and Senior year. Would love for him to find a school in Midwest but it's probably going to be down south, but he doesn't care where he just wants to go where they need him.
Lot's of schools didn't even respond when he tells them his height (5'10). Both my kids are high 80's consistently, both have hit 90-91 a couple times during games. Have an awesome arm care routine, in the weight room every day. But lots these schools it's not enough. If they do get a response, straight tell them - you're not projectable.
There's more to pitching than height and being "projectable" to throw 95. Pitching is an art. You got to be able to hit your corners, nice change-up, keeping batter off balance, command and yes throwing in the mid-90s is great but it's not everything.
Do you have any metrics on their pitch movement? Does the fastball have a significant amount of run and sink? Is there something that will differentiate them?
When my son was 14 a coach saw my son at a scrimmage. After he asked him how tall his parents and grandparents were. He told him that coaches look for high butts and long arms. My son's nickname since he was 15 has been "Mr. Projectable". One of the older players at his club said that and it stuck.
The best thing was when a coach told him that "projection means very little if you don't work at it." Last summer my son looked at me and said, "I wish I'd stop growing so I could put on weight." I looked at him and said, "Little buddy...you can say that to me but NO other pitcher on your team wants to hear the 6'5" kid bitch about how he's still growing and you're already topping 92."
Projectability might get your foot in the door but at the end of the day baseball is a production business.
@lucky4three posted:Yes. My kids are fortunate they do play at the next level. I got 1 at JUCO school down south and 1 at a D2 school in Midwest looking to find a school for his Junior and Senior year. Would love for him to find a school in Midwest but it's probably going to be down south, but he doesn't care where he just wants to go where they need him.
Lot's of schools didn't even respond when he tells them his height (5'10). Both my kids are high 80's consistently, both have hit 90-91 a couple times during games. Have an awesome arm care routine, in the weight room every day. But lots these schools it's not enough. If they do get a response, straight tell them - you're not projectable.
There's more to pitching than height and being "projectable" to throw 95. Pitching is an art. You got to be able to hit your corners, nice change-up, keeping batter off balance, command and yes throwing in the mid-90s is great but it's not everything.
I agree with everything you've stated. I get it, it is a very hard pill to swallow. For my son, it didn't really matter once he was in college. He had no professional baseball aspirations and he got to start on the bump every weekend. He played baseball because he loved it.
There are exceptions out there. Billy Wagner, Marcus Stroman, Tim Lincecum, Fernando Rodney come to mind. Pedro Martinez was not tall and neither was Trevor Hoffman. If you are willing to pursue it, these are examples and you can examine their baseball paths for ideas. I just think it is very much the exception, and you need to keep looking for programs that are looking for someone like your son even if it is a slight step down from where he is today (in order to keep playing). In some ways, I think my son did compromise a little bit on his college baseball level, but it didn't matter as he had other priorities in mind.
Good luck!
My son is only a freshman but it's definitely a hard pill to swallow that a kid can do absolutely nothing about his DNA height wise and with sports at a higher level that is very much a factor. I don't share these thoughts with my son but it's frustrating. I imagine for a pitcher it's really tough. On the bright side in our area I can easily think of 4 or 5 kids who played D2 and D3 baseball who are under 5'9" and got reasonable playing time.
I don't know this player personally, but I saw him pitch and -- wow -- he confused everyone who faced him. He is 5' 8" and deadly on the mound.
https://www.orleansfirebirds.c...is-not-the-exception
I am very curious about whether he will be drafted. He just transferred to WVU. I wonder what his recruiting coaches thought about him a few years ago!
My son played against a kid who was 5'7" and threw 91. He's getting a shot in college. First time I saw him I thought the other team brought up some 13u kid for the tournament (17u event).
@lucky4three, If you are perceived to be undersized as a pitcher (under 6’-2”) you are at a disadvantage. That’s just a fact. However there are coaches that pay more attention to performance than size. Those are the coaches you need to find. At this point in time they tend to be younger coaches who put more emphasis on stuff than size. To them stuff is the separator. To get their attention you will need to show them that your son has a pitch (or pitches) that do something better than average. My suggestion is to get Trackman readings on a bullpen as soon as possible. Then get someone that understands how to interpret the data to explain it to you. What you are hoping for is something you can sell. Like a high spin rate FB that really holds it’s plane. Or an off speed pitch that has an unusual amount of movement. If one of those things exists, and you can prove it up with data, that becomes your selling point. And the headline that you lead with when approaching college coaches. They are much more likely to respond to that than the old tired dialogue that coaches hear from every parent about their kid’s pinpoint control and warrior mentality. Because more often than not that argument is very subjective and parents are biased. Can’t argue with science that’s real. It’s much more persuasive.
Lucky … I’ll ignore the projectability. I’m guessing throwing high 80’s, maxing 91 they’re not looking for baseball after college. Being JuCo and transfer players they want to get it right when they make their move. They should be looking for the best possible baseball experience and education regardless of division level.
Are your son’s the top pitchers on their staff? Pitchers who have proven they can get college hitters out will get a chance regardless of size as long as the recruiting coach believes he can get hitters out at the level he’s coaching. It’s why movement and command matters in addition to velocity.
There’s a poster on here with a son heading into his 5th year season in a ranked program. He’s 5’11”. He’s not the star of the staff. He hasn’t been drafted. But he understands his role and is very successful at it.
Know your fit. Know your role. Good luck!
@adbono posted:@lucky4three, If you are perceived to be undersized as a pitcher (under 6’-2”) you are at a disadvantage. That’s just a fact. However there are coaches that pay more attention to performance than size. Those are the coaches you need to find. At this point in time they tend to be younger coaches who put more emphasis on stuff than size. To them stuff is the separator. To get their attention you will need to show them that your son has a pitch (or pitches) that do something better than average. My suggestion is to get Trackman readings on a bullpen as soon as possible. Then get someone that understands how to interpret the data to explain it to you. What you are hoping for is something you can sell. Like a high spin rate FB that really holds it’s plane. Or an off speed pitch that has an unusual amount of movement. If one of those things exists, and you can prove it up with data, that becomes your selling point. And the headline that you lead with when approaching college coaches. They are much more likely to respond to that than the old tired dialogue that coaches hear from every parent about their kid’s pinpoint control and warrior mentality. Because more often than not that argument is very subjective and parents are biased. Can’t argue with science that’s real. It’s much more persuasive.
^ this
I was just about to add that your boys need Trackman data.
Because without standout speed (95+), or natural height, your boys will need to push a bit more to prove they can contribute at the next level. Their existing coaches should be able to help market them if their season stats and Trackman numbers are solid.
@lucky4three posted:I hate the word PROJECTABLE. It's been tough for my boys. Their great pitchers but unfortunately, they are not tall kids and that's what these coaches want. Why does coaches take kids that our "projectable" but no work ethic and arm care routine? I would think that would be very important, but most these coaches just want the tall kids.
WHERE'S THE COACHES THAT Love THE Boys that have tremendous work ethic?
I'm going to assume based on your post your sons are pitchers. So, at every level there will be an amount of "projectability". There will be players that get opportunities you might not think they deserve. But at the end of the day what coaches really love is results. If your players can throw with velocity, control, and command multiple pitches, and get people out, they'll get playing time that "projectable" players that don't produce won't.
At the end of the day sports are a results-oriented endeavor.
My son joked his program’s recruiting form crashed if the potential recruit noted he’s a right handed pitcher and not at least 6’3”.
Sonny Gray - 5-10, 195lb
1st Round pick from Vanderbilt
American League CY Young Award voting- 2023 (3rd), 2019 (7th), 2015 (3rd)
When it comes to D1, the grinders with great work ethic are all over the place, whether they are 6'2 or 5'6. Many, many choices. As a D3 coach, we get all the 5'6 grinders and are happy they fall to us. But even all the "work ethic" kids don't work out. The ones that excel at D3 usually transfer out in a year or 2, but that's what good D3 programs that stress development can expect.
'
@RJM posted:Gray would be considered an outlier. The average size of a pitcher in 2023 was 6’2.5” 210.
Greg Maddux - 6-0, 170lb, 4x Cy Young Award Winner, HOF
Pedro Martínez - 5-11, 170lb, 3x Cy Young Award Winner, HOF
@fly996 posted:Greg Maddux - 6-0, 170lb, 4x Cy Young Award Winner, HOF
Pedro Martínez - 5-11, 170lb, 3x Cy Young Award Winner, HOF
Both had ridiculous, movement on their fastballs and changeups. If the kids throw balls that have exceptional movement they will get recruited. If not, it will be an uphill battle
A kid from my block is a 5' 8" 170lb lefty pitcher. Goes to a NESCAC and got 26 innings last season.
OP's sons are playing in college, just not at D1s. I think the argument here is about D1; there are plenty of opportunities for all sorts of players in the lower levels.
All the HOF examples are true, but I think there are plenty of 6'2"+ pitchers cruising 90+ with great work ethic. They don't all have success, but it's more of a risk for a coach to take a chance on someone who doesn't fit that profile, if they haven't demonstrated anything else in their pitches, as others have said above.
Serious question. How do you know that the projectable kids have no work ethic?
Reading this I'm wondering how common lying about height is when it comes to recruiting videos and other information.
How do you know about work ethic? Where do I start? I have left many a practice or game very early, usually before the first AB. You can usually pick up many things in warm ups. As they say first impressions are critical. I love kids that invite me to workouts or training sessions. The smart ones know the games are fluff. Coaches do their due diligence by talking to opposing coaches, players and even umpires. Rarely do we rely on a player’s advocate but rather rely on an adversary.
@2026 posted:Reading this I'm wondering how common lying about height is when it comes to recruiting videos and other information.
Why would someone do that? Many coaches can look someone in the eye and know the players exact height, so I don’t advise lying.
Great question asked by PTWood.
Great responses from adbono and anotherparent.
I am trying to figure out exactly what is the issue. The sons aren't tall enough or other players don't work hard enough?
JMO
@RJM posted:It doesn’t change the average size of a 2023 MLB pitcher is 6’2.5” 215.
The point is that it makes no sense for some college coaches to refuse to consider guys that are 6' and under when there are pitchers currently starring in the MLB and in the MLB Hall of Fame that are 6' and under.
@adbono posted:@lucky4three, If you are perceived to be undersized as a pitcher (under 6’-2”) you are at a disadvantage. That’s just a fact. However there are coaches that pay more attention to performance than size. Those are the coaches you need to find. At this point in time they tend to be younger coaches who put more emphasis on stuff than size. To them stuff is the separator. To get their attention you will need to show them that your son has a pitch (or pitches) that do something better than average. My suggestion is to get Trackman readings on a bullpen as soon as possible. Then get someone that understands how to interpret the data to explain it to you. What you are hoping for is something you can sell. Like a high spin rate FB that really holds it’s plane. Or an off speed pitch that has an unusual amount of movement. If one of those things exists, and you can prove it up with data, that becomes your selling point. And the headline that you lead with when approaching college coaches. They are much more likely to respond to that than the old tired dialogue that coaches hear from every parent about their kid’s pinpoint control and warrior mentality. Because more often than not that argument is very subjective and parents are biased. Can’t argue with science that’s real. It’s much more persuasive.
Gem.
@fly996 posted:The point is that it makes no sense for some college coaches to refuse to consider guys that are 6' and under when there are pitchers currently starring in the MLB and in the MLB Hall of Fame that are 6' and under.
Who said that coaches refuse players that are under 6ft? There are MLB guys under 6ft, but not many, which does tell you something. It's obvious one has to be pretty special for that to happen.
Coaches from certain programs covet height and very rarely recruit any player under 6 ft. Son was one of those who had projection written all over him. Long arms long legs. He was 6'3" but physically immature. They want that but it's rare these days. He finally had a full beard late 20's. Scouts call it the baby face.
There isn't enough information given by the OP other than complaints about players not working as hard as sons who are not getting opportunities.
Let's be realistic, many coaches, especially P5, want most of their staff to be over 6ft. If that's where the OPs sons have been concentrating and not receiving attention, it's time to change the plan.
The first rule of thumb for anyone is to use your skill to further your education.
That's what this discussion should be about.
@2026 posted:Reading this I'm wondering how common lying about height is when it comes to recruiting videos and other information.
Happens a lot. I see tons of 5’8 kids listed at 6’. It’s one thing to go from 6’1 to 6’2, but most coaches know what 6’ looks like. Just like they can see the kids who work out and the ones who don’t.
For the longest time my son had his true barefoot height listed. Then it became apparent that's not the norm, so he added 1.25" after several individuals suggested we increase it for recruiting. His fully suited up in baseball attire height adds 2" to his barefoot height. I'd say of the players we know, most are adding about 2" to their barefoot height.
Mom, that’s interesting, I wonder at what point is it irrelevant? My son is 6’2. Does it benefit him to list himself at 6’3.
Most players list their height "in cleats."
Athletics are not fair – I’m roughly the same height as Usain Bolt, but no amount of training and work ethic would have ever made me better than a well below average sprinter. I’m more genetically suited for slightly above rec play pickleball…
I’ve often said that nobody deserves to be HS, college, or pro level athletes – it’s not that that they don’t work incredibly hard, it’s that the cost of admission is unearned in the form of genetic gifts. IMO, “Projectable” is relative to more than height, it’s the perceived gifts that might grow into an advantage as the athlete matures and possibly levels up.
@adbono has some great advice about Trackman data and learning if your sons have attributes that can be leveraged for success. When my son showed up at Arkansas as a junior, he met with the pitching coach regarding his Trackman data and how they were going to leverage his natural pitch movement. He went from a Juco closer/stopper to a Friday night starter (at this point he was also 6’5” and touched 97 – so also projectable).
However, if you want to see an amazing story of a kid who’s 6’ tall that throws in the low 90’s and was the very best player in college baseball in ‘21, look at Kevin Kopps. He was redshirted, troubled by injury, and struggled to get outs in the SEC. He figured out a pitch, a slider or gyro something and nobody could hit it even though they knew it was coming. 33 appearances as a reliever, 12 and 1 record across 90 innings with an ERA of 0.90 and 0.756 WHIP (an amazing young man BTW). This is an extreme case, but the point is you’ve got to have something that brings you success at the next level to compete – being projectable just helps you get the opportunity.
@fly996 posted:The point is that it makes no sense for some college coaches to refuse to consider guys that are 6' and under when there are pitchers currently starring in the MLB and in the MLB Hall of Fame that are 6' and under.
I haven’t seen anything in the original post where the pitchers in question are future MLB prospects. It appears they’re struggling to find D1 roster spots.
@Dadof3 posted:Mom, that’s interesting, I wonder at what point is it irrelevant? My son is 6’2. Does it benefit him to list himself at 6’3.
What's the saying "when the rubber meets the road".
So, the OP is upset his kids are stuck at DIII while others more "projectable" are getting DI shots. Is that true, probably. Why? I'd assume not because his kids are throwing 91 with an ERA of 1.06 and DI coaches are ignoring them.
Many years ago at SSU [D-2] school, 10 pro scouts were evaluating one pitcher.
The scouts were friends and one famous scout "waved for me to join him". Lloyd was a former MLB outfielder. I asked "what are you looking for"?
I envision the pitcher in the World Series game 9th inning and his SS makes an error. What would this pitcher do?
"Would he threw his glove, yell at the SS or would he turn around go back to the pitcher plate and get the next batter out"?
A valuable lesson for the young players today. "Focus on the goal"!!!!! There is NO way to measure the heart.
Bob
@Consultant posted:Many years ago at SSU [D-2] school, 10 pro scouts were evaluating one pitcher.
The scouts were friends and one famous scout "waved for me to join him". Lloyd was a former MLB outfielder. I asked "what are you looking for"?
I envision the pitcher in the World Series game 9th inning and his SS makes an error. What would this pitcher do?
"Would he threw his glove, yell at the SS or would he turn around go back to the pitcher plate and get the next batter out"?
A valuable lesson for the young players today. "Focus on the goal"!!!!! There is NO way to measure the heart.
Bob
Dude, respectfully, you are just living in a different era. No one cares about that shit anymore. If they did the kid would be playing pro ball because skill wise, he was close enough and he had the "heart"/desire. It's just cold hard skill/ability. Not hard to find examples of players who were paid big time and washed out because they just didn't care.
