"Fact is proper scap loading technique/time wise is a must to protect the entire shoulder."
Why exactly is this? Why don't you think the body can take care of this itself?
"There opinion of scap loading is jamming the elbows behind the acromial line or a "hyperflexion" action which is not good. They dont know how/when its supposed to be done therefore they automatically think its wrong."
So exactly what is it and when should it be done? What purpose does it solve?
"Scapular dynamics are always affected when a player has an injury."
I assume you are talking about shoulder injuries. Of course, this is a given since the scapula is the key structure when it comes to the shoulder joint.
"Chris a person does not load the scap with his elbows down, this would produce way to much friction upon elevation."
So then how do you explain what Nolan Ryan is doing in frame 27.1 (among others) of this document...
http://www.chrisoleary.com/documents/PitcherAnalysis_NolanRyan.pdf
His elbows are down in this and other photos.
"Proper scap loading has nothing to do with rotation of the humerus either."
How could it not, given that the purpose of the muscles that attach to the scapula is to hold the proximal head of humerus in the socket and articulate the humerus (e.g. upper arm).
"Proper scapula dynamics serve to provide a stable base as well as funnel the energy to the throwing arm instead of wasting it elsewhere."
I agree, but I'm not convinced that this is something that the body can't take care of naturally.
"Most successful pitchers do not get the arm up nearly as quick as Marshall likes to see his pitchers. Which is one reason why they will never amount to much in my opinion."
But some like Freddy Garcia do. So you have a low opinion of him?
Now you can see why I gave up on you the other day.
Lots and lots of words about something of which you know nothing.
Yet, many conclusions.
The entire analysis is full of misinterpretation and not based in fact.
And, you can find an exception to every thing. Why don't you use Steve Avery to continue your nonsense?
Lots and lots of words about something of which you know nothing.
Yet, many conclusions.
The entire analysis is full of misinterpretation and not based in fact.
And, you can find an exception to every thing. Why don't you use Steve Avery to continue your nonsense?
Bottom line is the rotator housing.
It is either damaged or not damaged.
Some weightlifting can do permanent damage that will stretch rotator cuff muscles, create scar tissue, require surgery to shave scar tissue from weightlifting damage.
BTW< how is Doc Andrews? Anybody heard?
Shep
It is either damaged or not damaged.
Some weightlifting can do permanent damage that will stretch rotator cuff muscles, create scar tissue, require surgery to shave scar tissue from weightlifting damage.
BTW< how is Doc Andrews? Anybody heard?
Shep
I think I know a decent amount about it, but if you think I'm so wrong, then enlighten me.
Also, I'm not sure what nonsense you're referring to. I have taken a look at Steve Avery and it looks like he had a flaw in his motion that has also affected Chris Carpenter.
Also, I'm not sure what nonsense you're referring to. I have taken a look at Steve Avery and it looks like he had a flaw in his motion that has also affected Chris Carpenter.
Avery and Carpenter are completely different.
One loads the scap, the other didn't.
You may know alot. You just don't know the right stuff.
And, as I told you before, I won't educate you. One who makes ridiculous conclusions without the facts is usually not "educatable" if that is a word.
Too much religion. Not enough objectivity.
One loads the scap, the other didn't.
You may know alot. You just don't know the right stuff.
And, as I told you before, I won't educate you. One who makes ridiculous conclusions without the facts is usually not "educatable" if that is a word.
Too much religion. Not enough objectivity.
Chris, You simply dont know what it is your looking at. Nor will I educate you, do a lttle homework yourself. Unfortunately for you the homework you need will NOT be found at Dr. Mikes mansion of mayhem,misfits and minions!
You dont listen to well do you Chris?Heres a hint go back and read what I said about elevation and facilitates.
You dont listen to well do you Chris?Heres a hint go back and read what I said about elevation and facilitates.
I have done a breakdown of Avery's motion and in frames 7.1 and 8.1 (among others) he is doing something that sure as heck looks like scap loading...
http://www.chrisoleary.com/documents/PitcherAnalysis_SteveAvery.pdf
However, his pitching arm side elbow is above his shoulder while he is doing this, which I believe contributes to his problems.
Chris Carpenter does something very similar in frame 22.2, but both of his elbows are below his shoulders...
http://www.chrisoleary.com/documents/PitcherAnalysis_ChrisCarpenter.pdf
http://www.chrisoleary.com/documents/PitcherAnalysis_SteveAvery.pdf
However, his pitching arm side elbow is above his shoulder while he is doing this, which I believe contributes to his problems.
Chris Carpenter does something very similar in frame 22.2, but both of his elbows are below his shoulders...
http://www.chrisoleary.com/documents/PitcherAnalysis_ChrisCarpenter.pdf
"Chris a person does not load the scap with his elbows down, this would produce way to much friction upon elevation.....The elevation of the arm should be an assistant to proper scap loading."
So then you're saying that, since Nolan Ryan has his elbows below his shoulders in frame 27.1, he's not scap loading?
http://www.chrisoleary.com/documents/PitcherAnalysis_NolanRyan.pdf
Is the same thing true for Roger Clemens in frames 57.1 and 57.2...
http://www.chrisoleary.com/documents/PitcherAnalysis_RogerClemens.pdf
So then you're saying that, since Nolan Ryan has his elbows below his shoulders in frame 27.1, he's not scap loading?
http://www.chrisoleary.com/documents/PitcherAnalysis_NolanRyan.pdf
Is the same thing true for Roger Clemens in frames 57.1 and 57.2...
http://www.chrisoleary.com/documents/PitcherAnalysis_RogerClemens.pdf
quote:Originally posted by Coach Chris:
(Avery)...he is doing something that sure as heck looks like scap loading...
Final conclusive evidence that you don't know what scap loading is.
Fine.
Then explain why what Avery is doing is not scap loading.
Then explain why what Avery is doing is not scap loading.
Do the research.
And quit talking about something you know nothing about until you do.
And quit talking about something you know nothing about until you do.
I have done the research.
How about this. Show me one pitcher of the many that I have studied who do scap loading the way you think it should be done...
http://www.chrisoleary.com/pitching/analyses.html
How about this. Show me one pitcher of the many that I have studied who do scap loading the way you think it should be done...
http://www.chrisoleary.com/pitching/analyses.html
quote:Originally posted by Coach Chris:
I have done the research.
Where? At the Marshall mansion of mayhem, misfits, and minions?
You won't find any answers there......at least nothing about how mlb pitchers throw.
You're a funny guy...
No. I've read the research behind the physiology of the shoulder and studied the motions and mechanics of both successful and unsuccessful professionals.
Let me ask again.
Show me one pitcher of the many that I have studied who do scap loading the way you think it should be done...
http://www.chrisoleary.com/pitching/analyses.html
I assume that PP was referring to Carpenter as doing it (and presumably correctly), but I want to be certain.
No. I've read the research behind the physiology of the shoulder and studied the motions and mechanics of both successful and unsuccessful professionals.
Let me ask again.
Show me one pitcher of the many that I have studied who do scap loading the way you think it should be done...
http://www.chrisoleary.com/pitching/analyses.html
I assume that PP was referring to Carpenter as doing it (and presumably correctly), but I want to be certain.
Just to prove that I have done the research, here are a few links to sites that talk about scap loading...
http://www.theathleticpitcher.com/images/TAP_video_BS.WMV
http://www.webball.com/bullpen/p3_scap.html
http://www.thecompletepitcher.com/pitching_article-12.htm
I'd love to know if and how they got it wrong.
http://www.theathleticpitcher.com/images/TAP_video_BS.WMV
http://www.webball.com/bullpen/p3_scap.html
http://www.thecompletepitcher.com/pitching_article-12.htm
I'd love to know if and how they got it wrong.
Is Linear the only one who knows anything about pitching and hitting or am I missing something here---no matter who posts what Linear says they are wrong and he is right
Has he ever coached baseball?
Has he ever coached baseball?
If I were you I would entertain the idea of learning from the guy who coined the term.
Then again, I believe you tried that already and found out how ****** you are.
So, good luck.
Then again, I believe you tried that already and found out how ****** you are.
So, good luck.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
or am I missing something here---
You're missing something here.
And there.
Everywhere
What I find so funny about this is that the same people who accuse Marshall of being mysterious do exactly the same thing when it comes to scap loading.
It's only a mystery if you....
Can't get on the site.
Can't read.
Can't comprehend what you read.
Won't comprehend what you read.
Or, your religion stands in the way of truth.
Can't get on the site.
Can't read.
Can't comprehend what you read.
Won't comprehend what you read.
Or, your religion stands in the way of truth.
This scap stuff is well past the point of being productive and informative. Can we try another throwing mechanics topic?
What's everyones opinion about lower body drive vs the dead leg? It seams like more MLB pitchers throw without a drive from the back leg. My son's pitching coach comes from the lower body drive school.
Now, let's all play nice on this one.
What's everyones opinion about lower body drive vs the dead leg? It seams like more MLB pitchers throw without a drive from the back leg. My son's pitching coach comes from the lower body drive school.
Now, let's all play nice on this one.
How you define lower leg drive is very important. As in, how or where are you driving?
Driving the right knee (on a right handed pitcher) straight toward the plate to within a few inches or a foot of the left knee. The ball release happens about the time the knees are closest together or maybe a little before.
"What's everyones opinion about lower body drive vs the dead leg? It seams like more MLB pitchers throw without a drive from the back leg. My son's pitching coach comes from the lower body drive school."
Keep in mind that I believe that the rotation of the hips, torso, and shoulder are the primary source of power (due to the size of the muscles involved).
Therefore, I believe that driving off of the rubber with the pitching arm side leg it can be helpful if it facilitates the continued rotation of the hips. Conversely, leaving the pitching arm side foot behind on the rubber can limit the amount that the hips can rotate and thus power.
One caveat is that this effect depends on the hips being in a position to continue to rotate.
Of course, all of this also has to be timed properly.
Keep in mind that I believe that the rotation of the hips, torso, and shoulder are the primary source of power (due to the size of the muscles involved).
Therefore, I believe that driving off of the rubber with the pitching arm side leg it can be helpful if it facilitates the continued rotation of the hips. Conversely, leaving the pitching arm side foot behind on the rubber can limit the amount that the hips can rotate and thus power.
One caveat is that this effect depends on the hips being in a position to continue to rotate.
Of course, all of this also has to be timed properly.
Linear,
Tom Seaver drove his straight to the Hall of Fame.
Tom Seaver drove his straight to the Hall of Fame.
Maddux certainly doesn't bring the pitching arm side leg forward. Instead, he leaves it behind on the rubber.
However, the way he pitches isn't the only way to pitch.
He has to leave his pitching arm side leg behind for balance purposes because he strides into a sharply bent glove-side knee. If he didn't stride into such a bent glove-side knee, he would be able to get more on top of his glove-side knee and would be able to get his pitching arm side knee farther off the rubber. The bonus would be that he would raise his release point.
However, the way he pitches isn't the only way to pitch.
He has to leave his pitching arm side leg behind for balance purposes because he strides into a sharply bent glove-side knee. If he didn't stride into such a bent glove-side knee, he would be able to get more on top of his glove-side knee and would be able to get his pitching arm side knee farther off the rubber. The bonus would be that he would raise his release point.
His right foot IS well ahead of the rubber at the release point.
However, he still drags his toe as if he is desperately trying to to keep his toe on his rubber. If he didn't try to drag his toe, and instead just let his leg and his hips come around like they want to, he might be able to reach a higher velocity.
Granted, this is all sheer speculation. Doing what I say above may completely throw off his balance.
However, I'm not convinced that any pitcher has achieved perfection.
However, he still drags his toe as if he is desperately trying to to keep his toe on his rubber. If he didn't try to drag his toe, and instead just let his leg and his hips come around like they want to, he might be able to reach a higher velocity.
Granted, this is all sheer speculation. Doing what I say above may completely throw off his balance.
However, I'm not convinced that any pitcher has achieved perfection.
Don't get me wrong. He does some things great.
For example, notice how his hips reverse-rotate, which lets him gets his hips around powerfully, but his shoulders stay pretty much in line with the target, which lets him throw from a more vertical arm slot. This also allows him to generate more power even though his hips end up locking after his glove side foot lands. He also lands very soft with his glove side foot.
I do have a problem with the length of his stride. Notice how his hips absolutely stop turning 2 frames after his glove-side foot plants. This is because his knee is bent 90 degrees. It also lowers his release point.
My question isn't that this doesn't work for him. It obviously does.
The question is whether it would work for everyone.
For example, notice how his hips reverse-rotate, which lets him gets his hips around powerfully, but his shoulders stay pretty much in line with the target, which lets him throw from a more vertical arm slot. This also allows him to generate more power even though his hips end up locking after his glove side foot lands. He also lands very soft with his glove side foot.
I do have a problem with the length of his stride. Notice how his hips absolutely stop turning 2 frames after his glove-side foot plants. This is because his knee is bent 90 degrees. It also lowers his release point.
My question isn't that this doesn't work for him. It obviously does.
The question is whether it would work for everyone.
You, my friend, are lost.
BB Linear TR or whoever
yea, its okay to have that long stride and hip rotation in the slowest most methodical loading process in windup (FW) as possible, holding rotation as long as possible till toe to heel touchdown. Would you agree with that?
Film shows power rotation occurs before touch down
Sheo
yea, its okay to have that long stride and hip rotation in the slowest most methodical loading process in windup (FW) as possible, holding rotation as long as possible till toe to heel touchdown. Would you agree with that?
Film shows power rotation occurs before touch down
Sheo
Scout
Impossible to convert a Marshallite.
They are so overwelmed that they can actually talk to a former Cy Young award winner that they drink the Kool Aid. All of it.
Impossible to convert a Marshallite.
They are so overwelmed that they can actually talk to a former Cy Young award winner that they drink the Kool Aid. All of it.
While my first inclination is to ask you how many Cy Young awards your favorite pitching guru has won, let me instead make it clear that I'm as skeptical as the next guy. That's why I've done all of my own research to validate what Dr. Marshall says.
I've also had my share of exposure to professional athletes, so the awe factor has worn off.
Andy Van Slyke was an investor in the last startup I joined. I talked to Dave Butz (of the Redskins) about investing in the same startup. I regularly see Andy Benes with his kids at the park and the mall (saw him last weekend, in fact). A friend from high school (Henry Jones) played Safety for the Bills during the 90s.
I have come to learn that, if you get past their amazing physical abilities, they aren't gods who should be followed blindly.
I've also had my share of exposure to professional athletes, so the awe factor has worn off.
Andy Van Slyke was an investor in the last startup I joined. I talked to Dave Butz (of the Redskins) about investing in the same startup. I regularly see Andy Benes with his kids at the park and the mall (saw him last weekend, in fact). A friend from high school (Henry Jones) played Safety for the Bills during the 90s.
I have come to learn that, if you get past their amazing physical abilities, they aren't gods who should be followed blindly.
quote:Originally posted by Coach Chris:
That's why I've done all of my own research to validate what Dr. Marshall says.
oxymoron.
And what research have you done to validate your faith in the ideas espoused by YOUR favorite guru?
Or is it just blind faith?
Or is it just blind faith?
We love talking heroes when we get into ths stuff. I have watched that clip about 100 times and I can see that Maddux had some incredible live arm action, thats evident in his 92-95 in the day. But i've seen many pitchers and I just don't see hip rotation there. That doesn't mean much to Maddux because he's proven. But I can get a lot more out of a pitcher when teaching more hip rotation.
No but I'm sure you are. We don't see that kind of talent often, like in a maddux. In fact if I could teach 100,000 kids, 99,999 would not have what he has. So why do we always compare to guys that are the best, when we are trying to teach a mediocre kid how to compete on a higher level. I don't see rotation as it is taught, and I'll stand by that. I will not insist as I for one, know that I'm not an expert.
Coach Chris,
Enjoyed the 25 pages or so of pitching analysis on the great Nolan Ryan.
The one "key" that stands out in my mind was the comment you made about the glove foot planted before the shoulder rotation occurs.
That is the lower-body power base with the strongest muscles providing a foundation to rotate upper body in front of a powerful wall of resistence creating bull-whip pop with arm action coming forward behind everything I just described taking place beforehand. Great!
Thanks Coach for Analysis,
Shepster
Enjoyed the 25 pages or so of pitching analysis on the great Nolan Ryan.
The one "key" that stands out in my mind was the comment you made about the glove foot planted before the shoulder rotation occurs.
That is the lower-body power base with the strongest muscles providing a foundation to rotate upper body in front of a powerful wall of resistence creating bull-whip pop with arm action coming forward behind everything I just described taking place beforehand. Great!
Thanks Coach for Analysis,
Shepster
To see the hip rotation, open up the QuickTime player and then open this URL...
http://dmcmillan.topcities.com/gm1.mpg
One the QuickTime player opens, click on Window > Movie Info in the main menu. That will let you see the timestamps of the file listed under "Current Time".
At 1:21 his hips are square to Home Plate.
At 2:24 he has maximally reverse-rotated his hips (now square to 3B).
At 3:10 he has opened up his hips so that they are now square to Home Plate again.
He physically can't do this without rotating his hips.
Although it doesn't apply to this clip, the easiest way to track someone's hip rotation is to look at the position of their belt buckle in a picture. If present, you can also track the differential between the rotation of their hips and shoulders by watching the buttons down the front of their shirt curve.
http://dmcmillan.topcities.com/gm1.mpg
One the QuickTime player opens, click on Window > Movie Info in the main menu. That will let you see the timestamps of the file listed under "Current Time".
At 1:21 his hips are square to Home Plate.
At 2:24 he has maximally reverse-rotated his hips (now square to 3B).
At 3:10 he has opened up his hips so that they are now square to Home Plate again.
He physically can't do this without rotating his hips.
Although it doesn't apply to this clip, the easiest way to track someone's hip rotation is to look at the position of their belt buckle in a picture. If present, you can also track the differential between the rotation of their hips and shoulders by watching the buttons down the front of their shirt curve.
I got you Coach and I do see that hip rotation and thats how I've always viewed it.
I watched this one hundreds of times the other day and do see what you are referring to in rotation.
This clip supports our theories.
Great instructional piece!
Shep
This clip supports our theories.
Great instructional piece!
Shep
