Questions About "Hands" Cues In Hitting Instruction and General Discussion of Hitting

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
There are 2 planes of rotation to be concerned with. If you do it as an upper body unit move it isn't dumping the barrel. It's how to start the top hand swivel early.

The elbow only goes towards the dugout to help pinch the scapula. It moves very slightly. The barrel turns towards the dugout and then is whipped around the body.

Let me put up a gif of the correct way to do it. It's easier to understand that way.



You don't HAVE to have the snap stop.

quote:

Originally posted by LAball:


Interesting video

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:

See, I think if we were on a field somewhere we'd be able to show what we mean. It's why I hate these forums for technical things.

The hands have (overall) control in terms of the upper body. Some think they can control the lower body, but I don't believe that. My personal experience has demonstrated that.

Hands is a gross oversimplification in some cases. However, by doing drills like the one I've posted, you can just say to a hitter "hands" and he'll know what you mean.

They are the same thing in that both are meant to get the lower body ahead of the upper body.

Let me make a list of things we agree on:

1. The core provides most of the power (in your case, all of the power?)
2. You are holding onto the bat. No questions there.
3. The shoulders move. Though rotation is not perfectly accurate, it's a fair way to describe what's happening. I like saying "the shoulders are being rotatED", but that's a semantic matter.
4. Forward by Coiling/ Turning
5. The lower body leads

Are any of those a point of contention in this debate?

Emphasis mine: No. I absolutely positively do not agree with that at all. And that's the problem. Telling people that does nothing to help anybody. Trying to use the hands to control the upper body gets young hitters in more trouble than anything else. That is the very essence of this whole discussion. You think your personal experience tells you that. We haven't seen you swing so one of two things is happening. Using the hands that way is the easy way out, it is not part of a high a high level swing. The only thing that moves less than the hands is the head. No. No. A thousand times no. It is very easy to see that the statement is incorrect looking at any good hitter or even the videos you sent me.

What drill did you post? I missed it.

Proper sequencing, proper movement patters get the lower "ahead" of the upper. Not the hands.

1. Not in my case. There are studies.
2. Right.
3. Ok.
4. Sort of. It is not necessary to counter-rotate the lower half to hit the ball well. It is not bad to do it if done properly (i.e. not counter-rotating the upper half while doing it.) it is also possible to hit the ball well, even in a game situation, from a static set up and simply sitting and turning from a heel drop.
5. Sequence must be correct.

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
There are 2 planes of rotation to be concerned with. If you do it as an upper body unit move it isn't dumping the barrel. It's how to start the top hand swivel early.

The elbow only goes towards the dugout to help pinch the scapula. It moves very slightly. The barrel turns towards the dugout and then is whipped around the body.

Let me put up a gif of the correct way to do it. It's easier to understand that way.



You don't HAVE to have the snap stop.

He isn't doing that with his hands, he is doing it with exactly what I have been saying all along. His rehearsals are sloppy and he doesn't do his stop swing swing exactly like his rehearsals. I understand he is trying to develop rhythm, but still. What is causing that bat to go flat is the raising of his upper front arm and the slotting of his back elbow - not his hands. And he is dumping the bat head in his rehearsals (not the actual stop swing) because it is sloppy.

We did that drill a couple of times last week or the week before. Both of us. I don't hate the drill, but it could be much improved with a better example.

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:
What are the two planes of rotation we should be concerned with?

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
In response to 4: Yes, up to a certain level. Getting the foot down early becomes a killer unless you continue to load after you get it down.

Yes, the hands DO control the upper body's actions. The hands, wrists, and forearms are the reason that the shoulders laterally tilt. They are working as hard as they can to line up the barrel with the ball. You can't do that with "holding the hinge" or with trying to lag the bat through shoulder rotation.

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
It's a drill!

The kid was a hammer down swinger before he learned how to get the proper swing plane. I won't reveal his name, but he's on full scholarship at a major D1. The team finished just out of the top 25 last year.

What's causing his elbows to do that? He isn't rotating the shoulders before the hands get flat.
The only logical explanation is the action of his hands, wrists, and forearms.

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:
What are the two planes of rotation we should be concerned with?

The Z plane and the XY plane.

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
How do the hands add power? The contribution of the hands, wrists, and forearms is mainly direction. Most power comes from the legs and rear hip. As I said earlier in this post, the hands, wrists, and forearms provide bat direction. If you actively use them, they can help in squaring up the ball.

Tip n' Rip is not a universal panacea. I recognize that. There are players (and I know a few) who have big lower body issues and considerable "connection" issues (using the term that you're familiar with).
Tip n' Rip can help the player learn to control his upper body and can help him create resistance.

In terms of kinesiology, I prefer to use non-scientific terms and feelings rather than being overly technical. I understand what makes the body move and what actions cause the movement.

As for what happens if a player doesn't feel what I'm telling him about... If it's a one on one situation, I'd video him and see if he's performing the actions that I'm attempting to describe. If he is, that's great for him. I'll tell him: "We feel different things, but the same thing is happening". If the video doesn't show the actions, then I'll attempt to explain to him what he's doing wrong and how to fix it.

In a team situation, it's more difficult. There's a limited block of time for the hitter to spend with the coach. I would video the team's batting practice and then see what I could do with regard to instruction when there is time. Unfortunately, there rarely is in a team setting.

As for the HS player, I'd tell him "Good job, let's compare video of your swing to video of an MLB hitter and look at the differences" and if he matches, then I won't screw with his swing. If he doesn't match the video, I'll work on slowly introducing a few key concepts to him. Hopefully, by doing so he will become an even better hitter and be able to hit successfully at the highest level he aspires to play at.

I'll address the Tip n' Rip question in another post

Finally, I wish I could maintain some idea of continuity in my thoughts (and it would probably be beneficial to all). However, I swing a bat quite a bit. When I swing, I video. I keep things that work and throw out things that don't work.

For example:
Top hand swivel WORKS
Handle Torque doesn't
Forward by coiling works!
Tip n' Rip WORKS!
Attempting to maintain the hinge angle (actively thinking about it) doesn't work.

And as for my statement about Englishbey, he's said it numerous times over at another forum (BBF).

Wait a minute now. You are equating "power" with "direction"? Are you sure? if we're going to say direction, I might be on board with that, the problem is that isn't what you said earlier. this is what I meant about organizing your philosophy.

So anybody that doesn't "tip and rip" has issues such as lower body? "tip and rip" resolves disconnection? BTW, what is connection? "Resistance" to what?

If you understand what actions make the body move, how do you explain the video we talked about. You said earlier that the "tip" was done with hand action. Clearly in the case of Pujols and the video you sent me that isn't the case (your PM is gone now for some reason BTW).

Can the actions occur even if you aren't doing the same things? For example is there a way I can "tip" that is different from what you do that will not get me the desired effect? If you've already explained to him how he feels and he doesn't get it, how are you going to explain so he does?

Ok, so we're going to introduce him to concepts slowly to better his swing. Let me ask you this: Have you ever had stats that even remotely compare to those? Are you going to explain those with "feelings" as well? How? Have you ever felt .568?

As for your examples - those things may WORK! for you. Those cues, thinking that the hands add power and are responsible for effects when they are quite obviously not. First saying "power" then "direction" etc. Will they work for most? Or would saying what they actually do do be better for most?

As for the instructor. Again, what was the context? Did you see the post above about the most common faults? How does that tie in to this discussion?

Let me ask you this on a different but related note: You say you swing the bat a lot and work off of "feel" - I believe you. In order to "feel" you have to "do" right?

How many of the big instructors have you ever seen actually hit a baseball with their own swing? Now I'm not saying one HAS to have a great swing in order to teach one - I've been around way too long to think that. Just out of curiosity, which ones? I think that Connor Powers has a very nice swing in his videos. Any others?

Because I'll tell you this, that particular instructor that a lot of people seem to want to belittle, I've seen him hit a baseball off a tee with his own swing using exactly the tools he teaches, and brother, it's a thing of beauty.

Just wondering if there are any others.

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
There are 2 planes of rotation to be concerned with. If you do it as an upper body unit move it isn't dumping the barrel. It's how to start the top hand swivel early.

The elbow only goes towards the dugout to help pinch the scapula. It moves very slightly. The barrel turns towards the dugout and then is whipped around the body.

Let me put up a gif of the correct way to do it. It's easier to understand that way.



You don't HAVE to have the snap stop.

He isn't doing that with his hands, he is doing it with exactly what I have been saying all along. His rehearsals are sloppy and he doesn't do his stop swing swing exactly like his rehearsals. I understand he is trying to develop rhythm, but still. What is causing that bat to go flat is the raising of his upper front arm and the slotting of his back elbow - not his hands. And he is dumping the bat head in his rehearsals (not the actual stop swing) because it is sloppy.

We did that drill a couple of times last week or the week before. Both of us. I don't hate the drill, but it could be much improved with a better example.

It's a drill!

The kid was a hammer down swinger before he learned how to get the proper swing plane. I won't reveal his name, but he's on full scholarship at a major D1. The team finished just out of the top 25 last year.

What's causing his elbows to do that? He isn't rotating the shoulders before the hands get flat.
The only logical explanation is the action of his hands, wrists, and forearms.

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Deltoid/Neck slot drill...

Also LF, you didn't address this. It's just kind of hanging out there. Thanks.

Let's pull out the YouTube videos...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=me_GC7rRGzM

I'm not the guy in the video.

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
It's a drill!

The kid was a hammer down swinger before he learned how to get the proper swing plane. I won't reveal his name, but he's on full scholarship at a major D1. The team finished just out of the top 25 last year.

What's causing his elbows to do that? He isn't rotating the shoulders before the hands get flat.
The only logical explanation is the action of his hands, wrists, and forearms.

I know it's a drill LF, I even said that. I'm sorry, but that isn't teaching "proper swing plane". That isn't what he's working on and he isn't doing it with his hands. Like I said, I think the drill has some potential, I just think it would be better if it wasn't sloppy. The rehearsals where he is dumping the barrel, IMO, don't do any good. I think he would be better served by slowing down and doing his rehearsals like he does the actual stop swing.

He is causing his elbows to do that. Not his hands. Look at his hands, they aren't doing anything except well, you know...Hold your hands like you are holding a bat. Now raise your front elbow and lower the back elbow into the slot. Don't do anything with your hands or even wrists. Come back and tell every one what happened. Where did the imaginary bat head go?

Here's a general rule of thumb, any time you think distal is controlling proximal, question it.

quote:

Originally posted by wogdoggy:

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
How do the hands add power? The contribution of the hands, wrists, and forearms is mainly direction. Most power comes from the legs and rear hip. As I said earlier in this post, the hands, wrists, and forearms provide bat direction. If you actively use them, they can help in squaring up the ball.

Tip n' Rip is not a universal panacea. I recognize that. There are players (and I know a few) who have big lower body issues and considerable "connection" issues (using the term that you're familiar with).
Tip n' Rip can help the player learn to control his upper body and can help him create resistance.

In terms of kinesiology, I prefer to use non-scientific terms and feelings rather than being overly technical. I understand what makes the body move and what actions cause the movement.

As for what happens if a player doesn't feel what I'm telling him about... If it's a one on one situation, I'd video him and see if he's performing the actions that I'm attempting to describe. If he is, that's great for him. I'll tell him: "We feel different things, but the same thing is happening". If the video doesn't show the actions, then I'll attempt to explain to him what he's doing wrong and how to fix it.

In a team situation, it's more difficult. There's a limited block of time for the hitter to spend with the coach. I would video the team's batting practice and then see what I could do with regard to instruction when there is time. Unfortunately, there rarely is in a team setting.

As for the HS player, I'd tell him "Good job, let's compare video of your swing to video of an MLB hitter and look at the differences" and if he matches, then I won't screw with his swing. If he doesn't match the video, I'll work on slowly introducing a few key concepts to him. Hopefully, by doing so he will become an even better hitter and be able to hit successfully at the highest level he aspires to play at.

I'll address the Tip n' Rip question in another post

Finally, I wish I could maintain some idea of continuity in my thoughts (and it would probably be beneficial to all). However, I swing a bat quite a bit. When I swing, I video. I keep things that work and throw out things that don't work.

For example:
Top hand swivel WORKS
Handle Torque doesn't
Forward by coiling works!
Tip n' Rip WORKS!
Attempting to maintain the hinge angle (actively thinking about it) doesn't work.

And as for my statement about Englishbey, he's said it numerous times over at another forum (BBF).

Wait a minute now. You are equating "power" with "direction"? Are you sure? if we're going to say direction, I might be on board with that, the problem is that isn't what you said earlier. this is what I meant about organizing your philosophy.

So anybody that doesn't "tip and rip" has issues such as lower body? "tip and rip" resolves disconnection? BTW, what is connection? "Resistance" to what?

If you understand what actions make the body move, how do you explain the video we talked about. You said earlier that the "tip" was done with hand action. Clearly in the case of Pujols and the video you sent me that isn't the case (your PM is gone now for some reason BTW).

Can the actions occur even if you aren't doing the same things? For example is there a way I can "tip" that is different from what you do that will not get me the desired effect? If you've already explained to him how he feels and he doesn't get it, how are you going to explain so he does?

Ok, so we're going to introduce him to concepts slowly to better his swing. Let me ask you this: Have you ever had stats that even remotely compare to those? Are you going to explain those with "feelings" as well? How? Have you ever felt .568?

As for your examples - those things may WORK! for you. Those cues, thinking that the hands add power and are responsible for effects when they are quite obviously not. First saying "power" then "direction" etc. Will they work for most? Or would saying what they actually do do be better for most?

As for the instructor. Again, what was the context? Did you see the post above about the most common faults? How does that tie in to this discussion?

Let me ask you this on a different but related note: You say you swing the bat a lot and work off of "feel" - I believe you. In order to "feel" you have to "do" right?

How many of the big instructors have you ever seen actually hit a baseball with their own swing? Now I'm not saying one HAS to have a great swing in order to teach one - I've been around way too long to think that. Just out of curiosity, which ones? I think that Connor Powers has a very nice swing in his videos. Any others?

Because I'll tell you this, that particular instructor that a lot of people seem to want to belittle, I've seen him hit a baseball off a tee with his own swing using exactly the tools he teaches, and brother, it's a thing of beauty.

Just wondering if there are any others.

key words..on a tee...try an outside heater 85 and up.

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
It's a drill!

The kid was a hammer down swinger before he learned how to get the proper swing plane. I won't reveal his name, but he's on full scholarship at a major D1. The team finished just out of the top 25 last year.

What's causing his elbows to do that? He isn't rotating the shoulders before the hands get flat.
The only logical explanation is the action of his hands, wrists, and forearms.

I know it's a drill LF, I even said that. I'm sorry, but that isn't teaching "proper swing plane". That isn't what he's working on and he isn't doing it with his hands. Like I said, I think the drill has some potential, I just think it would be better if it wasn't sloppy. The rehearsals where he is dumping the barrel, IMO, don't do any good. I think he would be better served by slowing down and doing his rehearsals like he does the actual stop swing.

He is causing his elbows to do that. Not his hands. Look at his hands, they aren't doing anything except well, you know...Hold your hands like you are holding a bat. Now raise your front elbow and lower the back elbow into the slot. Don't do anything with your hands or even wrists. Come back and tell every one what happened. Where did the imaginary bat head go?

Here's a general rule of thumb, any time you think distal is controlling proximal, question it.

You CAN do that. But all you'll be able to do is "push" the bat with your arms. There's no ability to keep the bat behind the rear hip that way.

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:


I'm going to put up Donny Buster's presentation. I think we'll all be able to learn from it.

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
It's a drill!

The kid was a hammer down swinger before he learned how to get the proper swing plane. I won't reveal his name, but he's on full scholarship at a major D1. The team finished just out of the top 25 last year.

What's causing his elbows to do that? He isn't rotating the shoulders before the hands get flat.
The only logical explanation is the action of his hands, wrists, and forearms.

I know it's a drill LF, I even said that. I'm sorry, but that isn't teaching "proper swing plane". That isn't what he's working on and he isn't doing it with his hands. Like I said, I think the drill has some potential, I just think it would be better if it wasn't sloppy. The rehearsals where he is dumping the barrel, IMO, don't do any good. I think he would be better served by slowing down and doing his rehearsals like he does the actual stop swing.

He is causing his elbows to do that. Not his hands. Look at his hands, they aren't doing anything except well, you know...Hold your hands like you are holding a bat. Now raise your front elbow and lower the back elbow into the slot. Don't do anything with your hands or even wrists. Come back and tell every one what happened. Where did the imaginary bat head go?

Here's a general rule of thumb, any time you think distal is controlling proximal, question it.

You CAN do that. But all you'll be able to do is "push" the bat with your arms. There's no ability to keep the bat behind the rear hip that way.

What? No, we're talking about the movement of the bat head and the fact that it isn't done with the hands. Using the hands isn't going to keep anything behind any thing. That is done with the load and connection. He's doing it with what I've been telling you all along. His hands aren't doing anything. "Push the bat with the arms"?

quote:

Originally posted by wogdoggy
come on finish..lets keep it simple..the "hand" tip promotes separation and keeping the hands back and load while moving forward..Kids tend to step or coil AND bring there hands with them,,the tip stops that..the barell tip also makes it pretty **** near impossible to to take the knob directly to the ball..the tip almost assures you of proper barrel path.If a kid can do this he stands a chance at higher levels..you know it and i know it..

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

What? No, we're talking about the movement of the bat head and the fact that it isn't done with the hands. Using the hands isn't going to keep anything behind any thing. That is done with the load and connection. He's doing it with what I've been telling you all along. His hands aren't doing anything. "Push the bat with the arms"?

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:
Pushing the bat with the arms is what happens when you haven't learned to trust the rotation yet. Or were taught to run the hands/knob at the ball. Or did the #%$^@ fence drill.

With the hands, yes you can. I thought it was settled science that what most of them talk about they don't do?

Look at the videos you your self have posted. They aren't doing anything with their hands.

You're a little bit all over the page on this one.

quote:

The players are doing it with their hands, wrists, and forearms. It is NOT a shoulder action.

quote:

Originally posted by shortnquick:
Just another warning for those coaches looking to this thread for advise. Do not use the phrase "swinging down" with young hitters. It will mess them up. In a discussion recently with a MLB hitting coach, he said he now stays away from that phrase even with MLB hitters.

quote:

Originally posted by shortnquick:
Just another warning for those coaches looking to this thread for advise. Do not use the phrase "swinging down" with young hitters. It will mess them up. In a discussion recently with a MLB hitting coach, he said he now stays away from that phrase even with MLB hitters.

quote:

And, you can't properly use a vertical barrel depending solely on the shoulders. You dump/yank if you do.

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

The players are doing it with their hands, wrists, and forearms. It is NOT a shoulder action.

Doing what?

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

And, you can't properly use a vertical barrel depending solely on the shoulders. You dump/yank if you do.

backwards. Dumping comes from using the wrists/hands.

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

The players are doing it with their hands, wrists, and forearms. It is NOT a shoulder action.

Doing what?

Flattening the hands.

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
Don't agree. Dump comes from "pronating" the lead arm excessively (as in doing it willingly), from dropping the hands, and from poor posture.

Using the wrists and hands correctly avoids bat drag and barrel dump.

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

And, you can't properly use a vertical barrel depending solely on the shoulders. You dump/yank if you do.

backwards. Dumping comes from using the wrists/hands.

Don't agree. Dump comes from "pronating" the lead arm excessively (as in doing it willingly), from dropping the hands, and from poor posture.

Using the wrists and hands correctly avoids bat drag and barrel dump.

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:
I think we've about run our course here LF. Unless you have something earth shattering, I thank you for your time and civility. I truly enjoyed it.

quote:

Originally posted by wogdoggy:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

And, you can't properly use a vertical barrel depending solely on the shoulders. You dump/yank if you do.

backwards. Dumping comes from using the wrists/hands.

Don't agree. Dump comes from "pronating" the lead arm excessively (as in doing it willingly), from dropping the hands, and from poor posture.

Using the wrists and hands correctly avoids bat drag and barrel dump.

post the video of ted williams "dump".lol...[FLASH_VIDEO] [/FLASH_VIDEO]

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
There are 2 planes of rotation to be concerned with. If you do it as an upper body unit move it isn't dumping the barrel. It's how to start the top hand swivel early.

The elbow only goes towards the dugout to help pinch the scapula. It moves very slightly. The barrel turns towards the dugout and then is whipped around the body.

Let me put up a gif of the correct way to do it. It's easier to understand that way.



You don't HAVE to have the snap stop.

He isn't doing that with his hands, he is doing it with exactly what I have been saying all along. His rehearsals are sloppy and he doesn't do his stop swing swing exactly like his rehearsals. I understand he is trying to develop rhythm, but still. What is causing that bat to go flat is the raising of his upper front arm and the slotting of his back elbow - not his hands. And he is dumping the bat head in his rehearsals (not the actual stop swing) because it is sloppy.

We did that drill a couple of times last week or the week before. Both of us. I don't hate the drill, but it could be much improved with a better example.