My 2021 has been recruited as a pitcher only, but is now having second thoughts and wants to be a position player and hit too. What should he do? How should he go about this?
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I would doubt there is very little chance in this atmosphere. Hate to be bearer of bad news. My son was recruited as a two-way guy but decided this year not to pick up a bat other than a few times when some of the pitchers get to hit with fielders in positions. He still has power and has hit multiple homeruns this year in that drill but is not swinging regularly and will not see time in a game. He was doing both last year and was decently successful in the fall and was just ready after recovery from broken ankle to start swinging in games last spring when, well you know what, happened. This year with all the guys coming back and the new ones coming in there are 18 position players on his team and we only have one two way guy and he has only thrown 2 innings so far. There were five in last year's class that were 2 way considerations and only 1 is left. He will probably never see the mound in competitive action as he has pitched 1 in a mid week and 1 yesterday in a big win in the 9th. The rest either moved on or have put the bats up. It is tough to find playing time in either right now much less both. As a pitcher, you have to do hours of work each day. Then you have to stay for 2-3 hours a day to do your hitting stuff that you did not do while the others were doing it while you were working on pitching. I just don't see it happening unless he is going to a very small school or he is pure stud.
We wanted son to be a two-way. Asked his head coach if they would ever consider it. He just said no and moved on.
I agree with above.
Our guy is committed as a 2 way, but I have my doubts. First you better hit like crazy. 2nd, are there enough hours in the day with school? 3rd, can you really be a D1 P5 pitcher while doing a POS?
A unicorn!
PS he was not recruited as a POS, but when he threw over 90 he became a pitcher.
If half the MLB requires pitchers to hit, and most of them are an automatic out, wouldn't it be a significant competitive advantage for a team with a pitcher who can actually hit? And, if so, why not encourage pitchers to try?
I don't get it.
Let's leave aside the bean ball aspect, perpetually-right-around-the-corner universal DH rule, and the Syndergaards, Madbums, Greinkes of the world, who are outliers.
It's extremely rare. I know of one kid in our recruiting class that was recruited as a two way. He is a PO.
@Baseballin posted:My 2021 has been recruited as a pitcher only, but is now having second thoughts and wants to be a position player and hit too. What should he do? How should he go about this?
Is he committed? Signed an NLI? What division of college ball? Has the coach seen him hit? It's not common at any level, but I think it's more likely at D3.
@Baseballin posted:My 2021 has been recruited as a pitcher only, but is now having second thoughts and wants to be a position player and hit too. What should he do? How should he go about this?
Agree with above. Not a good time to be going to Coaches with something like that with roster spots at a premium.
To answer the question about how should he go about this....I think if your son is going to seriously consider it there has to be reason for a coach to consider a change like this. Believe it or not, my son (SP) came to me AFTER his college freshmen year and said he wanted to hit. He thought he could contribute something above what his teammates had done...which was not very good decision making at the plate. I asked my son to really think hard about the message he is sending, and frankly he needs to focus on maintaining his spot in the starting rotation. He agreed, and nothing more was said about it between us. The following year the team had a breakout year (conference champions) at the plate and my son had a great year on the mound.
What I found out a couple years later was that one of my son's teammates and best friends asked the HC about changing from a pitcher to a position player in the middle of their breakout year. That went over like a "fart at church". My son told me "Freddy" can really hit and should be in the lineup, but HC won't put him in. So, apparently some bridges were burned with his request. I would think long and hard about it, and how your son approaches it.
Just my experience....
Before approaching the coach, I would ask 1 question.
Is he willing to potentially lose the offer and go to the next school , who is offering an opportunity to hit?
if he’s not willing to decline the offer and/or there are no two-way offers “in-hand,” he needs to make his first business decision of his young life..
Mick said it best: “ You can’t always get what you want....but you might find; You get what you need.”
Good luck with this life learning lesson
What level ball is the school? A pitcher is more likely to “maybe” DH when he doesn’t pitch at a D3. The general consideration is a lot of effort goes into being a pitcher OR a hitter and succeeding in college.
My son found it time consuming to focus on being an infielder and an outfielder. He was a utility player who started somewhere each game. He would get a run at one position when there were slumps or injuries.
When I played Legion (it was THE GAME then) the best hitter in the state was also the best pitcher. He got to college and never touched a bat. He pitched in the CWS and MLB.
They are rare. I think back to McKay what a Unicorn. None of the possible "two-way" guys recruited with son's school ever happened. There is one there now who is one of their best hitters (w/power too) and is currently their frontline starter.
@Shoveit4Ks posted:They are rare. I think back to McKay what a Unicorn. None of the possible "two-way" guys recruited with son's school ever happened. There is one there now who is one of their best hitters (w/power too) and is currently their frontline starter.
And will be a very early round draft pick. He is awesome.
McKay was a two way freak in college. He got a shot both ways in the minors. But it’s not hard to see which way it’s trending. It was predictable. Pitching will usually win out. There’s more demand for pitchers. It’s hard to hit the higher up you go and the less you do it.
@DD 2024 posted:If half the MLB requires pitchers to hit, and most of them are an automatic out, wouldn't it be a significant competitive advantage for a team with a pitcher who can actually hit? And, if so, why not encourage pitchers to try?
I don't get it.
...
See the end of PitchingFan's post. College P's at strong programs have separate schedules from position players for many things. Separate conditioning, pens, position meetings, video sessions, etc. So there is an additional time commitment. Add to this the difficulty of balancing an already jam packed academic schedule and something usually suffers.
The fact that the NL has pitchers hit has zero bearing on what decisions a college coach is going to make for his program to be as successful as possible. The coaches of strong programs have rosters full of very good hitters. Why risk the health and development of a P with having him function as a 2-way? He better really stand out when compared to those other very good hitters.
@DD 2024 posted:If half the MLB requires pitchers to hit, and most of them are an automatic out, wouldn't it be a significant competitive advantage for a team with a pitcher who can actually hit? And, if so, why not encourage pitchers to try?
I don't get it.
Let's leave aside the bean ball aspect, perpetually-right-around-the-corner universal DH rule, and the Syndergaards, Madbums, Greinkes of the world, who are outliers.
Pitchers in these days usually only get about 2 plate appearances per game because they rarely make it past the 6th inning. It is not nothing but two plate appearances in the 9 spot just doesn't make a huge difference.
Just as an example: Zack greinke who is an excellent hitting pitcher (. 600 ops) was worth - 3 batting runs per year. Jon Lester who is a very bad hitting pitcher (. 300 OPS) was worth -9 runs in the NL on average.
That is a 6 run difference over a season which is about 0.6 Wins.
That is not nothing but 0.6 wins over 30 starts is really not a lot and you probably would want to invest more into something else to gain those 6 runs.
Obviously teams would prefer a greinke but even getting a. 600 ops is incredibly hard in the majors and most pitchers would need a ton of work to get there and really most wouldn't get there no matter what (greinke hit over 400 with like 20 Homers in high school).
So realistically we are talking here a pitcher practicing hitting 10 hours a week to even get his ops from 300 to 450 and that is just not worth the effort as pitching is hard enough.
Isnt traditional batting practice becoming outdated? Hitters take their practice in cages. I saw those when I was at the astros/washington facility last year.
Stand corrected, they do batting practice so pitchers can get in PFPs, pitchers fielding practice, especially in minors.
Pitchers take practice with fungo bats.
@Dominik85 posted:Pitchers in these days usually only get about 2 plate appearances per game because they rarely make it past the 6th inning. It is not nothing but two plate appearances in the 9 spot just doesn't make a huge difference.
Just as an example: Zack greinke who is an excellent hitting pitcher (. 600 ops) was worth - 3 batting runs per year. Jon Lester who is a very bad hitting pitcher (. 300 OPS) was worth -9 runs in the NL on average.
That is a 6 run difference over a season which is about 0.6 Wins.
That is not nothing but 0.6 wins over 30 starts is really not a lot and you probably would want to invest more into something else to gain those 6 runs.
Obviously teams would prefer a greinke but even getting a. 600 ops is incredibly hard in the majors and most pitchers would need a ton of work to get there and really most wouldn't get there no matter what (greinke hit over 400 with like 20 Homers in high school).
So realistically we are talking here a pitcher practicing hitting 10 hours a week to even get his ops from 300 to 450 and that is just not worth the effort as pitching is hard enough.
Got it. Great explanation and analysis. Thanks.
All of this is fascinating. I think it's a combo of a few different factors. Some of it just plain old school when it comes to coaching, part of it is numbers based (as explained earlier in the thread), and past of it is mechanics driven.
My son is going through this right now. In the insanity of last year, he was recruited HA D3 and the HC has expressed that he thinks he can go 2 ways (based on primarily tape). For reference , my son has upper echelon D1 power in terms of bat speed, exit velocity, etc. He has (for now) D3 RHP velo (85-88), and he's just ok at 1B. Someone once asked him an excellent question: If he was facing himself at the plate, who would he want to be? The pitcher or the batter? His answer was immediate: pitcher.
Part of the issue is that once you're a good travel pitcher, the machinery tends to lock you in as a PO, and then it becomes tough to excel at hitting given reps/timing etc. Part of it, as I said earlier in the thread, is that the two skills are not really compatible mechanics-wise. You're asking your body to do two, intense, yet different things. Both require precision and practice to be fully maximized. To be at an upper echelon and excel in both is truly difficult and rare.
My guy is prepping for both as he enters his Freshman year, but the realistic expectations are that true 2way playing time is an *ambitious* goal.
As already mentioned, being a two way guy in college is really difficult...even at the D3 level. My sons D3 team has zero two way guys even though some of them came in with aspirations of doing both. All of the two way guys are either PO's now or not in the program.
@Wechson posted:...Part of the issue is that once you're a good travel pitcher, the machinery tends to lock you in as a PO,
Agree with this...several of my son's friends were basically "evolved" into POs without anyone ever really giving them a choice.
@Wechson posted:All of this is fascinating. I think it's a combo of a few different factors. Some of it just plain old school when it comes to coaching, part of it is numbers based (as explained earlier in the thread), and past of it is mechanics driven.
My son is going through this right now. In the insanity of last year, he was recruited HA D3 and the HC has expressed that he thinks he can go 2 ways (based on primarily tape). For reference , my son has upper echelon D1 power in terms of bat speed, exit velocity, etc. He has (for now) D3 RHP velo (85-88), and he's just ok at 1B. Someone once asked him an excellent question: If he was facing himself at the plate, who would he want to be? The pitcher or the batter? His answer was immediate: pitcher.
Part of the issue is that once you're a good travel pitcher, the machinery tends to lock you in as a PO, and then it becomes tough to excel at hitting given reps/timing etc. Part of it, as I said earlier in the thread, is that the two skills are not really compatible mechanics-wise. You're asking your body to do two, intense, yet different things. Both require precision and practice to be fully maximized. To be at an upper echelon and excel in both is truly difficult and rare.
My guy is prepping for both as he enters his Freshman year, but the realistic expectations are that true 2way playing time is an *ambitious* goal.
Things change when the player gets to school and realizes that he can't do both without something suffering. Plus the injury factor becomes greater playing two positions.
I have been here a long time, dozens of folks telling us their son was recruited as a 2 way player.
I have never seen it work out.
The coach will use the player where he feels he needs his talent the most.
Its up to him, totally.
There were several school that recruited my son as a two-way. Those schools immediately dropped to the bottom of his list because he was realistic that if a team was looking at him to pitch, they saw him as a pitcher (he has a protypical pitcher's body). Even some of his first HS coaches told him he would eventually become a pitcher. He knew that to truly develop as a hitter (his passion), he needed the reps hitting and he needed to hit the weight room; developing his pitching would cut into that time. It is very hard for someone who is dividing their time between hitting and pitching to truly compete at the next level in both with those that are focusing on just one. So I would say anyone who is considering two-way, it should be because they have the tools AND they fervently love both and not just because they are curious and want to see if they can.
Right you are Paula. Near as I can tell the coolest thing about starting as a 2 way is they give you 2 sets of cleats and 2 gloves.
After that it is downhill.
@TPM posted:Things change when the player gets to school and realizes that he can't do both without something suffering. Plus the injury factor becomes greater playing two positions.
I have been here a long time, dozens of folks telling us their son was recruited as a 2 way player.
I have never seen it work out.
The coach will use the player where he feels he needs his talent the most.
Its up to him, totally.
Totally understand. My guy loves both, but is realistic about the challenges and chances. Preparing for both but will do whatever is needed from the Coach and team.
My son had dreams of being a 2-way (D2). As a Freshman, had a handful of appearances on the mound, no at bats in regular season. The team accepted an invitation to a post-season tournament, after most of the guys had left campus and went to their summer league, which left them short-handed. He DH'd four games and hit over .600. Come back for fall, he's a hitter, leads the team in average for the fall, somewhere around .440. In the starting lineup opening day, played a few games, hit his first collegiate HR, but made a couple errors in the field, out of the lineup. So he was in the bullpen the rest of the shortened covid year, a handful of appearances. This past fall, strictly PO, and this season worked his way into the starting rotation, throwing as well as he ever has. I attribute that to being able to concentrate and train for one thing. I don't know if he'll have another college AB, but coach did tell him he knows he can still hit, so I guess the door is still open very slightly.
I know he can pitch at this level, I know he can hit at this level. However, I don't think he can do both and excel at both. There just aren't enough hours in the day with classes/homework. It takes a special kid to be excellent at both at the same time, and even at that probably nothing more than DH'ing if he's a pitcher that's used often.
@PTWood posted:There were several school that recruited my son as a two-way. Those schools immediately dropped to the bottom of his list because he was realistic that if a team was looking at him to pitch, they saw him as a pitcher (he has a protypical pitcher's body). Even some of his first HS coaches told him he would eventually become a pitcher. He knew that to truly develop as a hitter (his passion), he needed the reps hitting and he needed to hit the weight room; developing his pitching would cut into that time. It is very hard for someone who is dividing their time between hitting and pitching to truly compete at the next level in both with those that are focusing on just one. So I would say anyone who is considering two-way, it should be because they have the tools AND they fervently love both and not just because they are curious and want to see if they can.
You just reminded me of something similar with my son. Except it was the opposite way. Through Pony league and travel ball my son played SS and pitched. Around 15 or so his coach (local area scout) told him nobody is ever going to consider you as a pitcher, you're a MIF. Not because he was not good but because of his build and height. He's currently still a starting SS in college and has an infield throwing velocity of 92.
A lot of guys want to be two way players. A lot of guys also don't understand that while they may be elite high school players, they're almost never elite both ways. That is why they recruited him as a PO.
The only way you can be a two way is if they didn't recruit the arm, would they still recruit the bat?
Whether you are a one way or do both, that decision is always made for you.
Son was recruited by a couple schools as a MIF and a couple as a P. He went to a school that wanted him as a pitcher but said "you'll have every opportunity to earn a spot in the field". Freshman year...he was a starter so they really didn't want him to hit. He got 5 or 6 AB's as a DH late in blowouts. Sophomore year he said he didn't want to bad if he was only getting a few AB's. Junior year he was the closer and did get 75 or so AB's as a DH. Senior year an arm issue had basically ended his pitching career. He played quite a bit at 1B and DH. Second on the team in avg....lead in HR's and RBI's. Looking back on it, I think he'd have had a better college career as an offensive player....but who knows
Just make sure you PO's are ready in case...this is how you do it if you get a chance to hit for some reason in a big game. This is how to do it both in game and after game. LSU Todd Peterson
It's hard to give up fielding/hitting or pitching, when your whole baseball experience has been about doing both. Even if you know that one will "get you to the next level." Especially if you prefer the other one.
Friends son committed to a mid-major (team was in the CWS in the last 15 years) as a soph as a 2 way. Hit 95 as a junior, was our states player of the year as a sr. He was the best pitcher and hitter in our state. Committed to a P5, after a coaching change, hitting 96-97 now. First thing they did was take the bat out of his hand. This kid was the total package at the plate, power and average. Played at a top program in our state.