CPZL...out of curiousity...does West Point allow any sort of "buy out" (for lack of a better word) for an officer who wishes to pursue a career outside of sports????? Would they accomodate someone who wanted to pursue an offer they received in.....I don't know....let's say an officer has a really good singing voice and got an offer to be a back-up singer on a professional tour? 
Or is that option available only for professional sports endeavors?
Orlando,
This is were we differ.
I do understand your point of view.
I'm just trying to explain My point.
Like I said I'm not articulate enough to point that out, Obviously.
LOL
These young men will be the first one's to tell you that it's just a game.
It does not compare to what there Fellow Soldiers are going through in Harm's way.
But the Military must see some Benefit.
The Benefit out ways the Problem
Are it would not happen.
EH
quote:I'm long past thinking I can have any impact on the military's decisions. But the rationale that they can accept and educate a young man to be an officer in wartime in order to hold him up as a professional ballplayer recruiting tool to enhance their advertising efforts to get more young people to send off to that war seems cynical in the extreme.
This is were we differ.
I do understand your point of view.
I'm just trying to explain My point.
Like I said I'm not articulate enough to point that out, Obviously.
LOL
These young men will be the first one's to tell you that it's just a game.
It does not compare to what there Fellow Soldiers are going through in Harm's way.
But the Military must see some Benefit.
The Benefit out ways the Problem
Are it would not happen.
EH
just wondering .. are you CIA?quote:by EH: ... Officer Bolt starts work as a Logistics Officer at MacDill AFB in Tampa on Monday. He has already gone over (about 15 minutes from the Phillies Training Facility in Clearwater* and met his 3 levels of Superiors over him. He thinks so far they're great. Each one of them has already stated they would like to see him continue
(live the All-American Dream), and if it can be done on a local level, they're going to try. At least until the Pentagon makes some sort of decision
can ya tap a few more phones for me??
quote:just wondering .. are you CIA?
can ya tap a few more phones for me??
Yes I am.
What would you like to know.
Of course you know what I have to do now. LOL
We all know this is a sensitive issue.
and i'm not trying to make light of it.
I'm just trying to let you know that these are Honorable young men.
Trying to do the best of both world's.
Embrace it.
It's not a bad thing.
In fact it's a feel good story as far as I'm concerned.
EH
Wow! Never thought my innocent question would get so many emotional responses.
I guess the Services look more favorably on players who have an opportunity for pro ball than they used to...which I think is reasonable if possible.
If that wasn't the case I doubt the MLB would draft them so high (Army guys 7th and 10th rounds).
Personnaly, i think it's great when individuals with individual circumsatnces are treated individually rather than lumped under a general rule!
A step in the right direction...IMO.
I guess the Services look more favorably on players who have an opportunity for pro ball than they used to...which I think is reasonable if possible.
If that wasn't the case I doubt the MLB would draft them so high (Army guys 7th and 10th rounds).
Personnaly, i think it's great when individuals with individual circumsatnces are treated individually rather than lumped under a general rule!
A step in the right direction...IMO.
quote:
I But the rationale that they can accept and educate a young man to be an officer in wartime in order to hold him up as a professional ballplayer recruiting tool to enhance their advertising efforts to get more young people to send off to that war seems cynical in the extreme.
Actually, in the cold light of day, it looks amazingly fiscally responsible for a government entity and a sound business decision that produces nothing but positives.
quote:Originally posted by luvbb:
CPZL...out of curiousity...does West Point allow any sort of "buy out" (for lack of a better word) for an officer who wishes to pursue a career outside of sports????? Would they accomodate someone who wanted to pursue an offer they received in.....I don't know....let's say an officer has a really good singing voice and got an offer to be a back-up singer on a professional tour?
LUVBB,
Is it your intention to try and support your position by bringing up ludicrous examples? Are singers now recruited to major universities and held up as examples or icons for the institutions? How many singers graduate college and make lasting impressions on millions of people?
I outlined as best I could the policy and reasoning for it. Your question is redundant in nature, because the answer to it has already been explained. I can't understand why you would choose to ignore it.
With respect, CPLZ, I don't think minor league ballplayers are held up as icons (even on this site) or "make lasting impressions on millions of people". You're waaayyyy ahead of yourself there.
Although I might hold up Bono as a singer who fits that bill.
The question is hardly ludicrous. The question was, are professional sports the only career that would outrank that of an Academy-educated officer?
Attending a civilian university prepares one for a universe of potential careers; attending a service Academy holds a specific and important commitment. I'm frankly surprised that the Academy allows entry with an alternate path as a goal.
You explained the policy and it is understood. I believe we are allowed to disagree with it, as do previous graduates of West Point.
Although I might hold up Bono as a singer who fits that bill.
The question is hardly ludicrous. The question was, are professional sports the only career that would outrank that of an Academy-educated officer?
Attending a civilian university prepares one for a universe of potential careers; attending a service Academy holds a specific and important commitment. I'm frankly surprised that the Academy allows entry with an alternate path as a goal.
You explained the policy and it is understood. I believe we are allowed to disagree with it, as do previous graduates of West Point.
quote:Originally posted by CPLZ:quote:
I But the rationale that they can accept and educate a young man to be an officer in wartime in order to hold him up as a professional ballplayer recruiting tool to enhance their advertising efforts to get more young people to send off to that war seems cynical in the extreme.
Actually, in the cold light of day, it looks amazingly fiscally responsible for a government entity and a sound business decision that produces nothing but positives.
So now I understand that you don't see that using an officer who has had a program tailored to his needs as an example would mislead recruits. The goal is to recruit; the ends justify the means.
quote:Originally posted by Orlando:
Although I might hold up Bono as a singer who fits that bill.
You explained the policy and it is understood. I believe we are allowed to disagree with it, as do previous graduates of West Point.
Which college did Bono attend?
What graduates are in disagreement? I haven't met any, and I've met a lot of grads and am ex-Army.
The question wasn't ludicrous, trying to use it to support an argument where evidence to the contrary already in effect was.
quote:Originally posted by Orlando:
So now I understand that you don't see that using an officer who has had a program tailored to his needs as an example would mislead recruits. The goal is to recruit; the ends justify the means.
Actually, I believe you are refusing to understand this subject at all. You are entitled to your opinion, but you seem hell bent on disagreement, which is your right.
You are opposed to a pre arranged and explicit program that benefits greatly, both the Service and a Cadet and somehow want to find unfairness where none exists.
quote:LUVBB,
Is it your intention to try and support your position by bringing up ludicrous examples? Are singers now recruited to major universities and held up as examples or icons for the institutions? How many singers graduate college and make lasting impressions on millions of people?
Honestly CPZL...I apologize if you took offense...it was sincerely not meant that way. It was just meant to ask an honest question (because I do not know the answer) if the Academies allow "buy outs" (again...not sure if that is the correct terminology) for professions that are not sports related????? I'm sorry if you took offense...it was not meant to be a "stupid" question. But if you can't take the time to answer it in a polite way...then never mind. I have tried my BEST to be civil in this discussion and not point any fingers PERSONALLY or "name call"....instead I have questioned the military/academies and perhaps society in general for putting "athletes" above the average soldier. I have gone out of my way to say I do not know Mr. Bolt...and I wish him the best. He is only pursuing avenues that the MILITARY and ACADEMY have allowed for him. But we are allowed to disagree on whether those avenues should be allowed to exist. We are allowed to ask questions and debate. Altho, I do not think I have had ANY of my "questions" answered directly except by answers like "when asked, he will serve with honor" and to be called "ludicrous" by you. Honestly, I think the same word COULD be used for the policy in place....but instead of calling it that I have asked some questions and pointed out some examples that have been conveniently ignored.
But..thanks for the input!
LUVBB,
Are singers now recruited to major universities and held up as examples or icons for the institutions? How many singers graduate college and make lasting impressions on millions of people?
****************************
But..to answer your question...I would say definitely YES!!!! Obviously you do not know how hard it is to get into some performing arts majors at major universities...let alone into performing arts colleges (hmmmm....a specialization school...sort of like an "academy"?)???? Yes, the best are contacted and asked to apply. And yes..there are major scholarships for those talented enough. And in answer to your question..I would venture to guess there are about the SAME number of performing artists who have graduated from college and have made a lasting impression on millions of people as there are baseball players who have gone the same route. AND..probably an equally minimal number of each actually become successful enough to make a good living at it. The success rate for both are probably minimal. Singing "backup" I would equate to getting your feet wet in the minors. So personally...I do not think the "comparison" is all that LUDICROUS...EXCEPT for the fact that performing artists aren't asked to serve their country in return for their education....but, again I ask my question...what would happen if an academy graduate was offered an opportunity equally as prestigious as an athlete playing minor league ball? I guess from your "ludicrous" reply you do not think ANYTHING could be on equal footing outside of the athletic realm. But then again...I think our culture has placed way too much of an importance on BOTH professional athletes AND performing artists. Altho, from your "ludicrous" argument....I guess we are safe to assume you only fall into the category of only promoting the former.
Are singers now recruited to major universities and held up as examples or icons for the institutions? How many singers graduate college and make lasting impressions on millions of people?
****************************
But..to answer your question...I would say definitely YES!!!! Obviously you do not know how hard it is to get into some performing arts majors at major universities...let alone into performing arts colleges (hmmmm....a specialization school...sort of like an "academy"?)???? Yes, the best are contacted and asked to apply. And yes..there are major scholarships for those talented enough. And in answer to your question..I would venture to guess there are about the SAME number of performing artists who have graduated from college and have made a lasting impression on millions of people as there are baseball players who have gone the same route. AND..probably an equally minimal number of each actually become successful enough to make a good living at it. The success rate for both are probably minimal. Singing "backup" I would equate to getting your feet wet in the minors. So personally...I do not think the "comparison" is all that LUDICROUS...EXCEPT for the fact that performing artists aren't asked to serve their country in return for their education....but, again I ask my question...what would happen if an academy graduate was offered an opportunity equally as prestigious as an athlete playing minor league ball? I guess from your "ludicrous" reply you do not think ANYTHING could be on equal footing outside of the athletic realm. But then again...I think our culture has placed way too much of an importance on BOTH professional athletes AND performing artists. Altho, from your "ludicrous" argument....I guess we are safe to assume you only fall into the category of only promoting the former.
Perhaps you could investigate the USMA's policy on smilies; then you would have understood the Bono comment.
And if the question wasn't ludicrous, is there an answer?
OK, I'll give you the names of the graduates who disagreed, and you can give me the names of yours. Rather reminds me of the old saw about the child who was told to eat their vegetables because there were starving children in Ethiopia. "Yeah? Name one."
I'm not refusing to understand the subject. (Isn't it odd the way someone in disageeement just "doesn't understand'?) I'm not agreeing with the policy.
There is no "unfairness" as far as the cadets who are drafted (an ironic word in this context) are concerned. The unfairness lies in the applicant who intended to make good on a five year commitment to the military who was not accepted in favor of the applicant with alternate aspirations, the personnel who serve, most particularly in Iraq, leaving difficult circumstances to those they have left behind, and the recruits who are led to believe, by that 'pro sports' example, that their personal aspirations will be taken into consideration for their assignment.
Alas, the army having a policy doesn't make it righteous.
And if the question wasn't ludicrous, is there an answer?
OK, I'll give you the names of the graduates who disagreed, and you can give me the names of yours. Rather reminds me of the old saw about the child who was told to eat their vegetables because there were starving children in Ethiopia. "Yeah? Name one."
I'm not refusing to understand the subject. (Isn't it odd the way someone in disageeement just "doesn't understand'?) I'm not agreeing with the policy.
There is no "unfairness" as far as the cadets who are drafted (an ironic word in this context) are concerned. The unfairness lies in the applicant who intended to make good on a five year commitment to the military who was not accepted in favor of the applicant with alternate aspirations, the personnel who serve, most particularly in Iraq, leaving difficult circumstances to those they have left behind, and the recruits who are led to believe, by that 'pro sports' example, that their personal aspirations will be taken into consideration for their assignment.
Alas, the army having a policy doesn't make it righteous.
we'd be remiss if we didn't mention the rest of the teamquote:by MCO: Although I might hold up Bono as a singer who fits that bill
Oh, Bee, U2? 
http://christianmusic.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?...ww.standyesteady.com
WOW....West Point Glee Club has CD's available. I would guess there are some very good singers in that club!
WOW....West Point Glee Club has CD's available. I would guess there are some very good singers in that club!
quote:Originally posted by Orlando:
With respect, CPLZ, I don't think minor league ballplayers are held up as icons (even on this site) or "make lasting impressions on millions of people". You're waaayyyy ahead of yourself there.
Although I might hold up Bono as a singer who fits that bill.
The question is hardly ludicrous. The question was, are professional sports the only career that would outrank that of an Academy-educated officer?
Attending a civilian university prepares one for a universe of potential careers; attending a service Academy holds a specific and important commitment. I'm frankly surprised that the Academy allows entry with an alternate path as a goal.
You explained the policy and it is understood. I believe we are allowed to disagree with it, as do previous graduates of West Point.
Sure, after graduating Cadets (and Midshipmen too) have agreed to 5 years of duty. Does anywhere specifically state those 5 years must be done right this second after graduation??
What many do not realize probably is that there are a few who have been drafted, played one summer of ball, and then went to active duty. ARMY's catcher, umm Williamson I believe was the name, was drafted by the Detroit Tigers, played one summer and last I knew was in Iraq. The Army didn't have to give him that summer off to play ball. The leave he used is given to ALL graduates-- 60 days leave after graduation. So far Karl Bolt has used his leave and then was granted additional leave that puts him in the negative for the next year.
Orlando, I kinda started up top and then got carried away with something else. I've put in bold something I feel people don't quite understand about the Service Academies. Sure, one purpose is to develop officers for the respective branch (West Point- Army, Annapolis- Navy and Marine Corps, Air Force- Air Force) but that is not the only purpose. I was going to post the West Point Mission, however reviewing it just now it would contradict my point. West Point was not started to only create officers in the Army. It was an engineering school and still is an engineering school. If the SOLE PURPOSE was to develop war fighters, then why would they have computer science classes or PE classes, etc?
West Point's Mission is this:
"To educate, train, and inspire the Corps of Cadets so that each graduate is a commissioned leader of character committed to the values of Duty, Honor, Country and prepared for a career of professional excellence and service to the Nation as an officer in the United States Army."
But they are also creating LEADERS. Business leaders, politicians, teachers, etc. The government realizes the Army is not for everyone. They have found many West Point graduates are leaving as soon after graduation as possible. For some, that's a year or two; for others it's 5 years. Meanwhile, others stay for many years; 20, 30 years or maybe more. But not all of them could do that. My uncle has a nephew on the other side of the family who graduated West Point in 1999; he was out of the military shortly after September 11. I believe he did maybe one tour in Afghanistan. Now he works in the business world.
Final point. Orlando, you made mention in a later post about the "recruits led to believe their personal aspirations will be taken into consideration for their assignment." It isn't a LEAD ON. Their personal aspirations ARE taken into consideration! As a graduate of an Academy, it depends on class rank. As a recruit who is enlisting, it depends on if that particular slot is available. A recruit typically gets to choose his or her MOS and sometimes even gets to choose his or her first duty station. Now if you screw up and say fail out of a specific class, you could get shipped anywhere for your first duty station. If you were to fail something, you become AT NEED OF THE ARMY. These graduates are much the same. Right now the Army needs recruiters.
quote:You are opposed to a pre arranged and explicit program that benefits greatly, both the Service and a Cadet and somehow want to find unfairness where none exists.
Okay...here is the question that no one seems to be able to answer so far. I will try ONCE AGAIN. Can someone please explain to me how this policy "benefits" the enlisted men and women in the service (from where the GREATEST manpower comes from in all the branches of the service) who do not have the same options for "alternate assignments" and delays in service as an Academy Grad/professional athlete???? This, IMO is where the unfairness DOES exist. Please explain how the lack of "alternate assignments" is FAIR when both mom AND dad are sent overseas. Please explain how the lack of "alternate assignments" is FAIR to the reservist who is re-assigned overseas after already serving his time. BUT, "alternate assignment" IS available to an academy grad/ballplayer. How is that disparity GOOD for the service? Again...I am talking POLICY...not personal.
Let me reiterate AGAIN, this is a question about POLICY....NOT about a cadet's option to utilize that policy. And yes, I understand it is "pre-arranged and agreed" upon by the cadet and the academy. I am not questioning THAT. I AM questioning whether this is a policy JUST for athletes in academies...and I am questioning HOW is it fair to the vast majority of our service men and woman who ARE serving overseas without benefit of "options" even under difficult cirmstances?
I do not understand why terms such as "unwillingness to listen" and "ludicrous" are callously thrown about due to "questioning" and "differing opinions". NO ONE has to agree here...and it is apparent no one will! However, a "polite" dialogue might be nice. But I do find it interesting that people tend to get mean-spirited and veer away from answering questions when opinions are different.
quote:Originally posted by luvbb:
LUVBB,
Are singers now recruited to major universities and held up as examples or icons for the institutions? How many singers graduate college and make lasting impressions on millions of people?
****************************
But..to answer your question...I would say definitely YES!!!! Obviously you do not know how hard it is to get into some performing arts majors at major universities...let alone into performing arts colleges (hmmmm....a specialization school...sort of like an "academy"?)???? Yes, the best are contacted and asked to apply. And yes..there are major scholarships for those talented enough. And in answer to your question..I would venture to guess there are about the SAME number of performing artists who have graduated from college and have made a lasting impression on millions of people as there are baseball players who have gone the same route. AND..probably an equally minimal number of each actually become successful enough to make a good living at it. The success rate for both are probably minimal. Singing "backup" I would equate to getting your feet wet in the minors. So personally...I do not think the "comparison" is all that LUDICROUS...EXCEPT for the fact that performing artists aren't asked to serve their country in return for their education....but, again I ask my question...what would happen if an academy graduate was offered an opportunity equally as prestigious as an athlete playing minor league ball? I guess from your "ludicrous" reply you do not think ANYTHING could be on equal footing outside of the athletic realm. But then again...I think our culture has placed way too much of an importance on BOTH professional athletes AND performing artists. Altho, from your "ludicrous" argument....I guess we are safe to assume you only fall into the category of only promoting the former.
Ok, name 10 famous singers and what college they went to.
